xkcd

by **webby** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:16 am UTC

Misnomer wrote:
cjdrum wrote:
Misnomer wrote:As for kill actions, though I'm wary of having a vig kill, I agree it's better than having an extra scum kill. We need a town player should send one in.
What are your thoughts about killing if we go with the Lightning Rod idea, then?
I'm still not entirely confident with using a lightening rod, but it does occur to me that it deals very effectively with the headache of the extra kill. If we have a lightening rod, then town doesn't actually need to send in a kill power - whether scum have one or two kills is meaningless, as they're going to be targeted at the same player anyway.

But that relies on the chosen lightning rod being town. I think it would be a good idea for town to try and get the kill power and kill the lightning rod, just in case. Actually, I've just realised that lightning rod won't die, because the doctor will be attracted to them as well. (Actually how do these things work? Does doctor only protect from one kill?)

I'm worried it might be a little gamebreaking though.

Mod: Is a lightning rod allowed?

by **Ibarra** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:14 am UTC

webby wrote:Mod: Is a lightning rod allowed?

Lightning Rod is not an action. It is a role. No role-changing allowed.

by **John Citizen** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:20 am UTC

webby wrote:2. John Citizen - only one post... ...Neutral/lurkerish (although I just realised the game has only been going 2.5 days, so this analysis may be a little premature.

Yes. Yes, it is. [/joke]

Anyway, I have a feeling that this is just hausdog's playstyle, as shown in all the other games that I've played with him. Nevertheless, I would like hausdog to explain reasoning/answer cjdrum's questions.

webby wrote:(Actually how do these things work? Does doctor only protect from one kill?)

It depends. Theoretically, it could protect against all kills up to the point where it is gamebreaking.

How many kills would a doctor protect against before it is considered gamebreaking?

Ninja:

What would happen/is it gamebreaking if we just gave the action "retarget all actions/kills to myself for the duration of the night"?

by **Ibarra** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:27 am UTC

John Citizen wrote:How many kills would a doctor protect against before it is considered gamebreaking?

A doctor can only protect one person for one kill per Night.

John Citizen wrote:What would happen/is it gamebreaking if we just gave the action "retarget all actions/kills to myself for the duration of the night"?

That is imbalanced.

Really guys. I think you should know better what actions are imbalanced or not.
Starting now, I will not be answering any questions regarding whether an action is imbalanced or not.

by **cjdrum** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:58 pm UTC

Fucking hell.

Mod: Please replace me

by **John Citizen** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:10 pm UTC

Well then...

I presume that it would be best to lynch cjdrum assuming no replacement, because otherwise we could end up with 4 deaths from 7 in a single day. With replacement, I'm not so sure. Tastelikecoke still hasn't posted apart from the confirm, and hausdog only twice. We've still got until 3am on the 19th AEST (5pm on the 18th UTC), but with the last slightly contentful post more than a day ago, from myself, I do think that we need to decide actions and lynching soon.

by **webby** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:45 pm UTC

4 deaths is probably better than 3 actually, because an extra townie dying is the difference between 2-2 and 1-2, which are both certain losses. (Actually maybe 2-2 isn't certain, but it's close to certain).

But I suspect with so many kills there are likely to be double-ups, so I don't know, maybe you're right and we should lynch cjdrum if he's going to be modkilled anyway. In terms of powers, we obviously need a vig, and I think they should be elected and told who to target. That leaves 5 players, of which two are (probably) scum. Maybe we don't decide who else gets which powers, else scum are just going to kill the cop (we could have doctor protect, but that breaks down if either cop or doctor are scum).

by **cjdrum** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:00 am UTC

I have the strangest feeling that Ibarra isn't replacing me, so...

webby: Why is 4 kills better than 3?

by **webby** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:16 am UTC

cjdrum wrote:I have the strangest feeling that Ibarra isn't replacing me, so...

webby: Why is 4 kills better than 3?

Because, if we assume that 2-2 is a town loss, which it usually is (there are some unlikely scenarios here involving everything going perfectly with doctor and vig that make it not certain), then here are the possible results:

4 kills:
All town, we lose, 1-2
One scum out of four, it's 2-1 town.
Two scum out of four, we win.

3 kills:
All town, we (probably) lose, 2-2
One scum out of three, 3-1 town. Not much better than 2-1, because I think we'd likely lose if we were to mislynch at 3-1.
Two scum out of three, we win.

So basically, we get an extra free chance to hit scum, because the position we're in with one extra town kill is, for all practical purposes, the same.

But as I said, I think it's unlikely we'll actually get 4 kills given the number of powers going around and the likelihood of two or more kills hitting the same target. Also, if you're willing to keep playing, there are people I'd rather lynch than you.

by **cjdrum** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:27 am UTC

I don't really want to keep playing, but I don't think the mod is replacing me. He messaged me, saying he didn't get the MyLo thing - and he hasn't posted in Disc. Thread or Sign-Ups, so...

Yeah, I do see why four kills is better than three.

UNLESS... I do know of an action that should fall under killing, but doesn't necessarily have to kill anyone. The second variant of the Arsonist primes people for lighting, then is able to light them (and kill them) on another Night (for the purposes of this setup).

This makes two kills per phase.

What do you think? It doesn't have as much chance of hitting scum, but it does definitely prevent a loss.

by **cjdrum** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:28 am UTC

EBWOP: An instant loss, I should say.

by **Hausdog** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:10 am UTC

ok 4srs here's how it's gonna work

person a kills person c
person b protects person c
person c investigates person d
person d roleblocks person e

That way, person c is guaranteed to live throughout the night to give the results of the investigation. Person e, if they're the mafia, can't kill, which is super-duper exciting

Right before deadline, we decide on which one we're doing and PM the mod. And then we figure out if someone lied the next day.

by **cjdrum** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:15 am UTC

And if B is scum?

Also, please answer my questions

by **cjdrum** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:18 am UTC

EBWOP: Wait. Never mind.

Why does D have to roleblock someone though?

by **webby** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:32 am UTC

I think the failing of that strategy is that the protect could be insufficient - if the cop is targeted by the scum kill as well, then they'll die. Probably some variant could be successful, I'll have a proper think about it when I get time.

by **mpolo** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:12 am UTC

This hypothetical 4 deaths is because of planning for modkills?

I suspect that Arsonist won't be allowed because it is a two-night effect. I could be wrong, of course.

A Poisoner (kill takes effect at the end of the next day instead of the beginning) might be a good move for a town-controlled kill. Then the target at least has a chance to get results out. I presume that this would be the same "category" as a normal kill as well.

by **Ibarra** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:04 pm UTC

Vote Count:
mpolo (1) - Hausdog
Not Voting (6) - cjdrum, John Citizen, webby, Misnomer, mpolo, tastelikecoke

DEADLINE IS IN AROUND FIVE DAYS.
WITH SEVEN ALIVE, IT TAKES FOUR TO HAMMER

by **Misnomer** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:26 pm UTC

If our aim is to minimise town-on-town kills, while denying scum their extra kill, then the poisoner should explicitly state that their target can be saved by doctor-protection, either on the first night or the second night. Because this would technically be making the power weaker, it shouldn't be considered gamebreaking, and at the same time would be a relatively harmless use of the kill power category.

by **tastelikecoke** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:29 am UTC

I'm quite not really sort of active for mafia today. I might ask for a replacement in any case. The reason? I just want to do something else than mafia now in the internet. I'll still try to post alot but just a precaution.

Anyway, still reading the thread.

by **mpolo** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:41 pm UTC

O.K. So we have various categories of powers. No idea how many or how few. And only one power is going to be given from each category. Let's just try to figure out what categories we have, and which powers would be the best for townies to choose. We shouldn't try to decide who gets what power (except perhaps in the kill category), to avoid scum taking advantage of the information.

If I were doing this, there would be something like:

KILL: SK, Vig, Poisoner, Arsonist, etc.
INVESTIGATION: Cop, Rolecop, Tracker, Watcher, etc.
PROTECT OTHERS: Doctor
PROTECT SELF: Bulletproof (which has been declared game-breaking), Commuter, PGO (which is presumably game-breaking if Bulletproof is).

Am I missing something obvious?

by **Misnomer** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:52 pm UTC

mpolo wrote:O.K. So we have various categories of powers. No idea how many or how few. And only one power is going to be given from each category. Let's just try to figure out what categories we have, and which powers would be the best for townies to choose. We shouldn't try to decide who gets what power (except perhaps in the kill category), to avoid scum taking advantage of the information.

If I were doing this, there would be something like:

KILL: SK, Vig, Poisoner, Arsonist, etc.
INVESTIGATION: Cop, Rolecop, Tracker, Watcher, etc.
PROTECT OTHERS: Doctor
PROTECT SELF: Bulletproof (which has been declared game-breaking), Commuter, PGO (which is presumably game-breaking if Bulletproof is).

Am I missing something obvious?

I can think of two more 'standard' categories

ACTION MANIPULATION: Roleblocker, redirect etc.
COMMUNICATION: Mason etc.

by **webby** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:46 am UTC

Commuter is a good role I hadn't thought of.

Cop is pretty clearly the best investigative role.

I was thinking listener, until I realised that scum don't get to chat. I think someone should take a communication type role to avoid scum taking it. Of course you risk the person you pick being scum, but I think it's worth it.

by **Ibarra** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:51 am UTC

Just to clear something up regarding my earlier post.

Regarding Bulletproof:
I've decided to allow it on the condition that it only lasts for one night and you cannot use it multiple nights straight.

by **Ibarra** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:53 am UTC

Come on guys.
Almost 24 hours and no posts?
If you guys aren't that interested I could drop the game instead and let the next game in queue go through instead.
So please, I expect more activity :(

by **webby** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:40 am UTC

I think it's partly that it's the weekend and also that we'll have more to talk about after night 1.

We still need a lynch. My favoured target is still Hausdog, because he's been the most anti-town player so far. Any other candidates people want to come up with?

by **John Citizen** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:26 am UTC

I wouldn't be opposed to a hausdog lynch, but only from a lack of suitable other candidates. We also need to find someone to execute the kill/poison, and who should be killed/poisoned. I probably can't do it myself, because I'm not usually awake at 3am. Maybe also using a poison variant that lasted longer than 2 days could be useful, and that can't really be gamebreaking as it is weaker than ordinary poison and kills.

Also, if we collectively decide who to lynch before voting, and who will hammer, we could control who gets the kill in. To check if this is allowable:

Can we submit actions immediately after hammer, or do we have to wait until night is declared?

by **Ibarra** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:49 pm UTC

John Citizen wrote:Can we submit actions immediately after hammer, or do we have to wait until night is declared?

Yes you may. As long as it is considered Night.

by **Misnomer** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:10 pm UTC

Sorry for lack of content, been at graduation ^_^

But yeah, we got bulletproof - which is awesome, but we shouldn't be complacent with it. After all, only one of us can actually get bulletproof, and if loads of people send it in, we're going to lose out on the potential for a lot of powers.

Anyways, I'm gonna go
Vote: TLC

Content please. I understand you want replacing, but you've made a commitment, so while you're still here please post.

by **mpolo** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:44 pm UTC

So. It's the weekend, and I have produced almost nothing. Hausdog's little attack on me makes me wonder about him, especially since it came with no content. I don't really consider this to be an OMGUS, since I would do the same if he were randomly attacking someone else.

by **webby** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:31 am UTC

Don't we also need someone to target with our (potential) killing power? So effectively we need two lynch targets. For now, to hopefully make them talk - I reckon two out of hausdog, tastelikecoke and mpolo. The people who have been talking have felt reasonably townie so far, so I think there's scum amongst the lurkers.

We also need to elect someone to carry out the kill. Right now, I reckon cjdrum or John Citizen.

Thoughts?

Also I agree with JC's statement about the deadline - I think I'm in the same timezone as him - 3am deadline.

Speaking of which:

Mod: When is the deadline? I got confused because you said 7 days, then 3 days later you said 5 days.

by **mpolo** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:09 am UTC

I think that the confusion is because the weekends aren't counted in the deadlines, but then the deadline on Thursday did include the weekend. I think that means that we have deadline on Tuesday.

I agree that it would be best to decide who is taking a kill power and whom he or she will use it on. The other powers should be taken more or less at random. We should also determine the time of hammer so that everybody (at least everybody in the right half of the globe) has a chance to get their power choice in. [I hate this dependency on time zones, but I think I've said this before. Sorry for the intrusion on this stream of consciousness.]

I have less time-intensive projects today, so I may be able to get a more detailed reading into this, rather than just fingering lurkers.

by **Ibarra** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:50 am UTC

The deadline is one week not counting weekends, so essentially it's 9 days.

by **webby** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:34 am UTC

Ibarra wrote:The deadline is one week not counting weekends, so essentially it's 9 days.

That doesn't add up still - 9 days from game start was early this morning my time and counting/not counting weekends doesn't help me because the game started in the middle of a weekend, and I don't know whether you're counting that as 1 day, or 2, or whether you count the game as starting at the midnight between sunday and monday. But I'll work with assuming the deadline is 3am tomorrow my time (ie in 13.5 hours), because that's 10 days from game start.

Mod: Is the deadline to be 10 days from this post? - viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72485#p2677064 This is 13.5 hours from now.

That causes some difficulties - are there enough of us going to be online at that time? I won't be and I think John Citizen won't be. Ideal would be to get a lynch in the next few hours, but I can't see getting four votes that quickly.

I would like to propose either John Citizen or cjdrum to take the killing power, but it might have to be cjdrum if the deadline is indeed early tomorrow morning. Misnomer and mpolo I have no strong read on at this point, leaning towards town Misnomer and scum mpolo. That leaves Hausdog and tastelikecoke who have barely posted and I have no read at all on.

Lynch target - in the absence of anything better:

Vote: Hausdog

I'll change this to TLC if we don't get momentum for this, but first I'd like to hear why Misnomer would vote for TLC rather than Hausdog - TLC just isn't posting, Hausdog has actually been scummy and winey.

What does everyone else think?

by **Ibarra** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:46 am UTC

Since there is apparent confusing over deadlines, I'm going to set a new one for this day.
The deadline for today will be in 27 hours time from this post.
All other Day deadlines will be 9 days from when the Day starts.

by **cjdrum** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:03 am UTC

~~I might be on then. It's 11am at school, so I can never really know...~~

Scratch that. Unless I get a day off (unlikely), I'll be completely un-on.

I'm fine, however, with JC controlling the kill power for the night, so... John?

by **John Citizen** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:28 am UTC

I won't be online at that deadline either, for circumstantial reasons. Overall, my online status will not be very reliable tomorrow, so hammering will probably not be very effective either. I think that we should set poison for an arbitrarily long time, say 10 days. If not, it would be best to choose a target now. I'd be happy with webby or mpolo submitting the kill if possible.

by **mpolo** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:25 pm UTC

I don't think that a 10-day limit is in the spirit of the rules (unless you mean 10 real-life days -- i.e. dies during the next night. I'm afraid to submit something like that and just have it rejected so that the scum have a chance at getting a more dangerous kill.

I've been very spotty on getting online and posting, particularly posting with a precise time deadline, so I might not be the best choice for taking this kill. I haven't really calculated when the deadline is in my time zone though.

As is typical on Day One, I don't have more than a vague suspicion. Hausdog popped in, voted, and disappeared. Certainly not constructive behavior. There's a possibility of scumminess there, certainly, but I find myself pretty unsure. I'll go ahead and vote, as that only brings it up to two:

Vote: Hausdog

by **webby** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:44 am UTC

The deadline is 8:45 tonight my time, I should be on at that time barring random after-uni board games happening.

But even if it does, I should be able to get online on my phone.

Are you happy for me to take the kill power then? Do you want to give me a target, or would you worry about me being role-blocked if we got it right?

What format should we do this in? One suggestion is that I prime someone at night, such that they can be ignited (a separate action) on a later night. I think this counts as an action rather than a role change, but does it count as being in the killing category? Arsonist is under killing roles in the mafiascum wiki, so I think it should, but maybe the 'priming' action doesn't count, only the igniting action does.

The alternative, of course, is that I just go with vig, and someone tries to role-block me.

by **tastelikecoke** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:44 am UTC

I apologize for being an inactive fart. I see we had a plan about LRs, but whatever lightning rods are it's unusable according to the mod. Only one night action per category means that only 1 kill power can be present, scum or town or not. I think we should immediately scourge this kill as fast as we can, whether a townie wants it or not, rather than the kill going to scum.

Other than that the premise seems to be choosing your own homemade one-shot power, with categories. Once the night action is rejected you won't be notified right? In a game with 7 people there'a a high probability of two people choosing the same category, so we may need to resubmit our night actions frequently so we can get one. That scheme sounds largely dependent on mod's activity and timezones, and the night's only 48 hours

Such a short time for resubmitting actions. Here's some questions to ~~kyubey~~ mod.

If all players submitted their desired night actions, but some of them are rejected, would night end early?

Can players change their night action after being accepted? (Just in case PM powers are present and players trade powers.)

Is the amount of categories greater than 7?

Anyway, that's about it. I hope I helped you guys as I feel like I'm wasting too much time on mafia (mostly because of ~~oblivion~~ Homestar Scummer)

by **tastelikecoke** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:45 am UTC

EBWOP: "scourge".... the word I was supposed to write was hoard, silly me.

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