What makes a RPG a RPG?

[SirBryghtside]

The games I enjoy playing multiplayer are the 'pick up and play' sort that don't require long-term investments. 'RPG elements' means 'character-progression based' and there's a huge rift between character progression in a single-player game and in an MMO. There basically aren't any imposed limits in single-player and your character can grow powerful and have the world be shaped around them. Multiplayer requires a compromise between letting you feel accomplished and letting everyone else feel the same thing, and it really hurts the game's freedom to express the power of the high-level characters. I've never played WoW, but I expect that nobody - not even the NPCs - gives a shit that you're level 85, and the game mechanics surely don't. True, a lot of single-player games don't care either, but they're able to because your character's power doesn't tread on the toes of anyone else who matters.

Just to clarify, the term 'RPG elements' makes more sense when labelled as 'character-progression through choices'.

Without the 'through choices', StarCraft (1, not 2), Half-Life and Doom would all be RPGs.

[Xeio]

Without the 'through choices', StarCraft (1, not 2), Half-Life and Doom would all be RPGs.

Wait, starcraft? What?

[Adacore]

Without the 'through choices', StarCraft (1, not 2), Half-Life and Doom would all be RPGs.

Wait, starcraft? What?

Did you play the campaign of StarCraft 1? There's definitely character progression...

[Xeio]

Wouldn't that qualify nearly any game as an almost RPG? I mean, there are many games that borrow RPG elements, but having a story isn't one of them.

[Adacore]

Wouldn't that qualify nearly any game as an almost RPG? I mean, there are many games that borrow RPG elements, but having a story isn't one of them.

I thought that was the point SirBryghtside was making.

[Xeio]

Wouldn't that qualify nearly any game as an almost RPG? I mean, there are many games that borrow RPG elements, but having a story isn't one of them.

I thought that was the point SirBryghtside was making.

That a game that borrows essentially no RPG elements could be an RPG if it was an entirely different game? Yes... of course... it makes so much... uh... sense.

[Adacore]

As I understood it, the point was that if one defines an RPG as a game which has 'character progression based on thought choices', then without the 'thought choices' qualifier lots of games across many genres would qualify as 'RPGs' when they are obviously not, because they include character progression in the game plot. StarCraft was cited because it is obviously not an RPG, but the game's plot has character progression and thus would fit the suggested definition of an 'RPG', were it not for the requirement for 'thought choices' to drive that progression.

[SirBryghtside]

Without the 'through choices', StarCraft (1, not 2), Half-Life and Doom would all be RPGs.

Wait, starcraft? What?

Did you play the campaign of StarCraft 1? There's definitely character progression...

...what? That isn't what I meant at all.

I said without the 'through choices' bit, in the larger 'character progression through choices'. So there is player progression in StarCraft 1 (you get more units as you advance), Half-Life and Doom (you get new weapons as you progress), but you don't do these things through choices. The reason I excluded StarCraft 2 is because that's already a little bit RPG, with the Armory, Mercs, and Moral Choices. I was actually ensuring there wasn't any confusion about StarCraft being an RPG

I probably should've said 'player' rather than 'character' progression though, thinking back. Makes more sense.

[SecondTalon]

Right.. which is the point being made. You don't get new gear through choices in Doom, Doom is not an RPG. You do get new gear through choices in Oblivion, Oblivion is an RPG. You cannot decide on your team makeup in the Call of Duty series - you either have them, or you don't. Call of Duty is not an RPG. You do decide on your team makeup in the Final Fantasy series. Final Fantasy is an RPG. You do not decide on your upgrades in Rune. Rune is not an RPG. You do decide on your upgrades in Deus Ex. Deus Ex is an RPG.

And so on. Lots of games have RPG elements, but are not RPGs. There's a respectable number of RPGs with almost no RPG elements that nevertheless are RPGs.

RPGs are basically pornography of the gaming world. No one knows what it is to be an RPG, but they know it when they see it.

[SirBryghtside]

Right.. which is the point being made. You don't get new gear through choices in Doom, Doom is not an RPG. You do get new gear through choices in Oblivion, Oblivion is an RPG. You cannot decide on your team makeup in the Call of Duty series - you either have them, or you don't. Call of Duty is not an RPG. You do decide on your team makeup in the Final Fantasy series. Final Fantasy is an RPG. You do not decide on your upgrades in Rune. Rune is not an RPG. You do decide on your upgrades in Deus Ex. Deus Ex is an RPG.

And so on. Lots of games have RPG elements, but are not RPGs. There's a respectable number of RPGs with almost no RPG elements that nevertheless are RPGs.

RPGs are basically pornography of the gaming world. No one knows what it is to be an RPG, but they know it when they see it.

This thread is confusing me more than ever.

I made a point, which got misinterpreted somehow as what my point was originally to confirm wasn't my point, so then I clarified what my point was, and then got told that I'm just repeating a point.

*headsplode*

[SecondTalon]

This thread is confusing me more than ever.

I made a point, which got misinterpreted somehow as what my point was originally to confirm wasn't my point, so then I clarified what my point was, and then got told that I'm just repeating a point.

*headsplode*

Maybe? Was that the point you were originally trying to make? If so, that was also the point SirBryghtside was making.

[SirBryghtside]

This thread is confusing me more than ever.

I made a point, which got misinterpreted somehow as what my point was originally to confirm wasn't my point, so then I clarified what my point was, and then got told that I'm just repeating a point.

*headsplode*

Maybe? Was that the point you were originally trying to make? If so, that was also the point SirBryghtside was making.

*double headsplode*

[SecondTalon]

..wait, why did I think you were Xeio...?

*headslpode*

[SirBryghtside]

Arrr, this thread be cursed...

[Beardhammer]

Right.. which is the point being made. You don't get new gear through choices in Doom, Doom is not an RPG. You do get new gear through choices in Oblivion, Oblivion is an RPG. You cannot decide on your team makeup in the Call of Duty series - you either have them, or you don't. Call of Duty is not an RPG. You do decide on your team makeup in the Final Fantasy series. Final Fantasy is an RPG. You do not decide on your upgrades in Rune. Rune is not an RPG. You do decide on your upgrades in Deus Ex. Deus Ex is an RPG.

And so on. Lots of games have RPG elements, but are not RPGs. There's a respectable number of RPGs with almost no RPG elements that nevertheless are RPGs.

RPGs are basically pornography of the gaming world. No one knows what it is to be an RPG, but they know it when they see it.

It's been a very long time since I played Oblivion, but last I checked you got new equipment mostly from killing other people and monsters and taking their pants. Imps didn't drop weapons in Doom, but you did find them just hovering around.

Not disagreeing that Oblivion is an RPG (and Doom is not), but I don't think your analogy worked well.

[SecondTalon]

The best stuff you get from completing quests. Lord Fancypants wants you to do something, or Wacky Demon God Shablalabadobob wants a task done in his or her name - you do the thing (Which often requires three-ten substeps before the thing is done), report your success and get a fancy new toy.

Doom at it's most complex (Doom 3) requires that you enter a code you read in an e-mail two steps away into a locked box to get a fancy new toy.

[Beardhammer]

In the unmodded game? Last time I played I seem to remember having daedric everything simply from going into a skillion different oblivion gates and just killing everything in sight.

[LaserGuy]

In the unmodded game? Last time I played I seem to remember having daedric everything simply from going into a skillion different oblivion gates and just killing everything in sight.

Quests occasionally give artifact quality loot. They'll be as good (or better, in a few cases) than what you can find normally in terms of pure armor value, but will have mods significantly better than either normal loot or loot you can enchant yourself (exception being the gate orbs which can give some pretty wicked mods at high level as well). For instance, the best shield in the game (+35% reflect damage ebony shield) is awarded for completing a minor, easily overlooked quest in one of the towns.

[EmptySet]

In the unmodded game? Last time I played I seem to remember having daedric everything simply from going into a skillion different oblivion gates and just killing everything in sight.

Quests occasionally give artifact quality loot. They'll be as good (or better, in a few cases) than what you can find normally in terms of pure armor value, but will have mods significantly better than either normal loot or loot you can enchant yourself (exception being the gate orbs which can give some pretty wicked mods at high level as well). For instance, the best shield in the game (+35% reflect damage ebony shield) is awarded for completing a minor, easily overlooked quest in one of the towns.

On the other hand, you can pick up the ridiculously-overpowered Mundane Ring from random chests. If you're a Breton, that ring alone will render you completely immune to any and all enemy spells.

[You, sir, name?]

As I understood it, the point was that if one defines an RPG as a game which has 'character progression based on thought choices', then without the 'thought choices' qualifier lots of games across many genres would qualify as 'RPGs' when they are obviously not, because they include character progression in the game plot. StarCraft was cited because it is obviously not an RPG, but the game's plot has character progression and thus would fit the suggested definition of an 'RPG', were it not for the requirement for 'thought choices' to drive that progression.

Wait what? Starcraft has absolutely no character development at all for the main character (i.e. the nameless, faceless commander/executor/cerebrate you control). Certainly the characters around you change, but they're not you.

[Adacore]

I'm just going to pretend that whole discussion never happened.

[SecondTalon]

On the other hand, you can pick up the ridiculously-overpowered Mundane Ring from random chests. If you're a Breton, that ring alone will render you completely immune to any and all enemy spells.

Which is.. also something that doesn't really happen in non-RPGs. Enemies and loot aren't randomized, they're pretty well set and established long before the game ships, much less while you play it. RPGs, however... the Random Encounter is remarkable when it's absent.

[SirBryghtside]

As I understood it, the point was that if one defines an RPG as a game which has 'character progression based on thought choices', then without the 'thought choices' qualifier lots of games across many genres would qualify as 'RPGs' when they are obviously not, because they include character progression in the game plot. StarCraft was cited because it is obviously not an RPG, but the game's plot has character progression and thus would fit the suggested definition of an 'RPG', were it not for the requirement for 'thought choices' to drive that progression.

Wait what? Starcraft has absolutely no character development at all for the main character (i.e. the nameless, faceless commander/executor/cerebrate you control). Certainly the characters around you change, but they're not you.

But it does have player progression through the units you get as you go along.

I just realised this is where everyone got headsploded on originally. Sorry

Quests occasionally give artifact quality loot. They'll be as good (or better, in a few cases) than what you can find normally in terms of pure armor value, but will have mods significantly better than either normal loot or loot you can enchant yourself (exception being the gate orbs which can give some pretty wicked mods at high level as well). For instance, the best shield in the game (+35% reflect damage ebony shield) is awarded for completing a minor, easily overlooked quest in one of the towns.

On the other hand, you can pick up the ridiculously-overpowered Mundane Ring from random chests. If you're a Breton, that ring alone will render you completely immune to any and all enemy spells.

Then it's a broken RPG.

Still an RPG.

[You, sir, name?]

As I understood it, the point was that if one defines an RPG as a game which has 'character progression based on thought choices', then without the 'thought choices' qualifier lots of games across many genres would qualify as 'RPGs' when they are obviously not, because they include character progression in the game plot. StarCraft was cited because it is obviously not an RPG, but the game's plot has character progression and thus would fit the suggested definition of an 'RPG', were it not for the requirement for 'thought choices' to drive that progression.

Wait what? Starcraft has absolutely no character development at all for the main character (i.e. the nameless, faceless commander/executor/cerebrate you control). Certainly the characters around you change, but they're not you.

But it does have player progression through the units you get as you go along.

I think it depends entirely on whether you consider them PCs or very obedient NPCs. I fall in the latter camp.

Consider by comparison Fallout. You're not some entity giving Mr. Vault 13 orders. You are him. This is clearly different from what's going on in Starcraft. In Starcraft, they address you directly. They may occasionally address your units, but they also address (and thereby acknowledge) the entity giving orders, to the point where the Protoss commander appears as an NPC in Brood War (Artanis).

[Beardhammer]

You were playing as Artanis in the original Starcraft? I was under the impression Artanis was just recently appointed Executor at the beginning of Brood War - so it makes no sense you were Artanis commanding everyone in the original game unless they just liked calling him/you Executor for shits and giggles.

[You, sir, name?]

You were playing as Artanis in the original Starcraft? I was under the impression Artanis was just recently appointed Executor at the beginning of Brood War - so it makes no sense you were Artanis commanding everyone in the original game unless they just liked calling him/you Executor for shits and giggles.

Yes (huge TL;DR, the search function is your friend), but it's a retcon.

[SirBryghtside]

As I understood it, the point was that if one defines an RPG as a game which has 'character progression based on thought choices', then without the 'thought choices' qualifier lots of games across many genres would qualify as 'RPGs' when they are obviously not, because they include character progression in the game plot. StarCraft was cited because it is obviously not an RPG, but the game's plot has character progression and thus would fit the suggested definition of an 'RPG', were it not for the requirement for 'thought choices' to drive that progression.

Wait what? Starcraft has absolutely no character development at all for the main character (i.e. the nameless, faceless commander/executor/cerebrate you control). Certainly the characters around you change, but they're not you.

But it does have player progression through the units you get as you go along.

I think it depends entirely on whether you consider them PCs or very obedient NPCs. I fall in the latter camp.

Consider by comparison Fallout. You're not some entity giving Mr. Vault 13 orders. You are him. This is clearly different from what's going on in Starcraft. In Starcraft, they address you directly. They may occasionally address your units, but they also address (and thereby acknowledge) the entity giving orders, to the point where the Protoss commander appears as an NPC in Brood War (Artanis).

I really just meant gameplay-wise, nothing deeper. Hence why I corrected it to 'Player progression' from 'character progression' earlier.

[SecondTalon]

Compare Warcraft III where, if I'm not mistaken, you have hero units but their levels nor gear carry over from stage to stage, and you have to re-research the same upgrades over and over again (I may be mistaken, it's been goddamn years since I've played it) to Rage of Mages, a RTS/RPG hybrid where you still control one primary Hero character, gather a party of hirelings, get equipment and level up.. yet it's all consistent. Once you have the +2 Asskicker Sword, you always have the +2 Asskicker Sword until you sell it off or drop it or something. Going to a new map doesn't remove your equipment.

And, as was mentioned in the Fallout thing - Warcraft III has you playing an unseen commander, Rage of Mages has you playing a particular person on the field, just viewing yourself from an above perspective.

While people can argue about the Rage of Mages line and it being more RTS than RPG or more RPG than RTS, it's got enough RPG elements that someone saying it's an RPG first and foremost would have a reasonable amount of evidence backing it up. Someone suggesting that Warcraft III is an RPG would get laughed out of the room.

I bring up Rage of Mages and compare it to Warcraft III as it's the closest thing to RoM I can think of - there's hero units, there's grunt units, you pick up gear for your hero units and your hero units have levels that affect their skills. One is an RPG, the other is not. So that may be a good start to help define what precisely an RPG is versus something like Assassin's Creed or Prototype, where you're playing as a particular character, have skills and abilities that get better as you spend time in the game, yet at best are said to have RPG elements and often not even thought about as being anything like RPGs at all.

[Okita]

W3 heroes kept their levels and equipment. Also impressivew as that they remembered to unequip all of the character's equipment when he/she left the army leaving it on the ground at the start of the next level so that you could re-equip as necessary.

I think the best example though of RPG confusion is Ogre Battle 64 (or Ogre Battle for SNES). It's an RTS but it has so many RPG elements shoved into it.

Man, I miss that game.

[Xeio]

I think the best example though of RPG confusion is Ogre Battle 64 (or Ogre Battle for SNES). It's an RTS but it has so many RPG elements shoved into it..

Actually, there's a whole sub-genre for that.

[Okita]

I think the best example though of RPG confusion is Ogre Battle 64 (or Ogre Battle for SNES). It's an RTS but it has so many RPG elements shoved into it..

Actually, there's a whole sub-genre for that.

I would argue that Tactical RPG's are separate from my examples though because the Tactical RPG's are generally turn-based.

Valkyria Chronicles is what I would consider the link between Tactical RPG and Real-Time RPG.

[Beardhammer]

I think the best example though of RPG confusion is Ogre Battle 64 (or Ogre Battle for SNES). It's an RTS but it has so many RPG elements shoved into it..

Actually, there's a whole sub-genre for that.

I would argue that Tactical RPG's are separate from my examples though because the Tactical RPG's are generally turn-based.

Valkyria Chronicles is what I would consider the link between Tactical RPG and Real-Time RPG.

It doesn't have to be. Modding Baldur's Gate on insane difficulty requires a lot of planning, and positioning is very important... yet it's in real time (though you can customize the pause feature to pause automatically at the end of each round, which would make it very similar to a turn-based game.) And I don't think anyone can say the BG games aren't RPGs.

[SecondTalon]

W3 heroes kept their levels and equipment. Also impressivew as that they remembered to unequip all of the character's equipment when he/she left the army leaving it on the ground at the start of the next level so that you could re-equip as necessary.

Hell, that just makes my example even better then.

Warcraft III is an RTS with RPG elements.
Rage of Mages is an RPG with an RTS Interface.

[philsov]

It doesn't have to be

Exactly. It's like pornography as above. There is a general set of guidelines for what an RPG is or is not, but for each trait or nontrait one can easily name a game that features it yet is still called an RPG.

Like simplistic gameplay. You press fight, and the character does so. There's little to no action aspect -- complex jumps while avoiding stuff, aiming of weaponry, etc. But there's still a slew of games (action-rpg is still an rpg) that have more advanced gameplay mechanics.

[Adam H]

I define RPG as "Role Playing Game" (duh). To me, "playing a role" means that you have an avatar which you consider to be an extension of yourself. In an RPG I actually AM a character in the game, whereas in non-RPG games I merely control a character in the game. So it's certainly subjective, but I think it's kind of dumb to say things like "in an RPG, loot is dropped randomly". I'm not really sure why being stamped with the term "RPG" would imply any sort of game mechanics like that.

When I play an RTS like SC, I don't consider myself jim raynor or the commander/executor/overmind (or whatever you are supposed to be). I'm just me, floating in the air telling the army what to do.

Game creators can label their games whatever they want. If they wanted to call starcraft an RPG, I would not have a problem with it, nor would I ever agree and start calling it an RPG.

[EmptySet]

I think the best example though of RPG confusion is Ogre Battle 64 (or Ogre Battle for SNES). It's an RTS but it has so many RPG elements shoved into it..

Actually, there's a whole sub-genre for that.

I would argue that Tactical RPG's are separate from my examples though because the Tactical RPG's are generally turn-based.

By that reasoning, Command & Conquer, Starcraft, and Age of Empires are not strategy games, because strategy games are turn based, like chess and Civilization. Or Morrowind, Jade Empire and Dragon Age aren't RPGs, because RPGs are generally turn-based, like Dungeons & Dragons or Fallout. Also, if tactical RPGs are "generally" turn-based, wouldn't that imply that some of them are not turn-based? Otherwise you could just say categorically that "tactical RPGs are turn-based".

[Xeio]

Careful, it's that kinda logic that lead to the headsplosions.

[SecondTalon]

By that reasoning, Command & Conquer, Starcraft, and Age of Empires are not strategy games, because strategy games are turn based, like chess and Civilization. Or Morrowind, Jade Empire and Dragon Age aren't RPGs, because RPGs are generally turn-based, like Dungeons & Dragons or Fallout. Also, if tactical RPGs are "generally" turn-based, wouldn't that imply that some of them are not turn-based? Otherwise you could just say categorically that "tactical RPGs are turn-based".

How does a Tactical RPG being turn based thus define Strategy Games as turn based?

I define RPG as "Role Playing Game" (duh). To me, "playing a role" means that you have an avatar which you consider to be an extension of yourself. In an RPG I actually AM a character in the game, whereas in non-RPG games I merely control a character in the game. So it's certainly subjective, but I think it's kind of dumb to say things like "in an RPG, loot is dropped randomly". I'm not really sure why being stamped with the term "RPG" would imply any sort of game mechanics like that.

It wouldn't, or else Borderlands would be an RPG.

But more importantly...

To me, "playing a role" means that you have an avatar which you consider to be an extension of yourself. In an RPG I actually AM a character in the game, whereas in non-RPG games I merely control a character in the game.

Yeah, not good enough. I goddam felt like Alex Mercer bouncing around and through people like Hulk ate Spiderman and Wolverine, thus gaining their attributes as well. But Prototype isn't an RPG.

Hell, I made all sorts of choices for Whazisface in InFamous as though I were him same as I would in Mass Effect or better yet, Alpha Protocol, but InFamous is not an RPG. Alpha Protocol is. In both InFamous and Alpha Protocol, I'm playing a very specific person, I just get to decide what he does and doesn't do. One's an RPG, one's not. What's the difference? Fucked if I know.

[Tomo]

Hell, I made all sorts of choices for Whazisface in InFamous as though I were him same as I would in Mass Effect or better yet, Alpha Protocol, but InFamous is not an RPG. Alpha Protocol is. In both InFamous and Alpha Protocol, I'm playing a very specific person, I just get to decide what he does and doesn't do. One's an RPG, one's not. What's the difference? Fucked if I know.

I'd say it's largely a question of the game's focus or standout moments - whether defined as what you remember or where the developer placed their efforts. When I think alpha protocol, I think decisions made that led to me obtaining a hi-fi system or risking a hostages life, or carefully allocating points to be the agent I wanted to be. When I think mass effect, I think making difficult choices with lives hanging in the balance. These are RPGs.

When I think prototype, I think jumping off buildings.

Sure, there were elements of each other in both, but can I remember a good shootout in mass effect or where I put a single stat point in prototype? Hell no.

[AvatarIII]

I define RPG as "Role Playing Game" (duh). To me, "playing a role" means that you have an avatar which you consider to be an extension of yourself. In an RPG I actually AM a character in the game, whereas in non-RPG games I merely control a character in the game. So it's certainly subjective, but I think it's kind of dumb to say things like "in an RPG, loot is dropped randomly". I'm not really sure why being stamped with the term "RPG" would imply any sort of game mechanics like that.

It wouldn't, or else Borderlands would be an RPG.

i think borderlands is really all you need to say to define an RPG
does it have experience and leveling system, in which your character begins as a blank slate? yes? then it's and RPG.