Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:47 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
psion wrote:Well, they removed metalopolis from the map pool.


Unfortunate. Metalopolis is a fantastic map without close positions allowed.

Why is Blizzard so completely resistant to realizing and correcting their mistakes?
I am surprised at what they said though, the fact that Metalopolis has a 60% zerg win rate even with close spawns. If that's true, that the map definitely deserves to be removed, being both old and unbalanced.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:55 am UTC

Haven't played the new 2v2 maps yet, but they removed Gutterhulk and Red Stone Gulch from the ladder. Guess which two shitass maps they didn't remove from the ladder? Discord IV and High Orbit. Oh well. I just keep my vetoes on them and no longer have to worry about deciding between Gutterhulk or Red Stone Gulch for my third veto.

I've also decided to change how I play, both in 1v1 and in team games.

In 1v1 and random-team team games, I will play like this:

Every race will have two units "banned"; I will not be allowed to produce or use these units in any situation. Terran will have Marauders and Siege Tanks banned. Protoss will have Stalkers and Force Field banned (sentries may still be built, they just aren't allowed to use force field.) Zerg will have Roaches and Infestors banned.

The reason I've selected these units (and one specific spell in Protoss' case) is because I feel these units break the game. I realize they each have counters and people consistently tell me I'm crazy for feeling Stalkers are overpowered, but there you have it. I have major problems with the current implementation of Force Field, and I also feel Hallucination isn't used often enough - so I'm going to try using Hallucination in my builds more often.

Essentially, I've noticed my gameplay with each race tends to end up being very samey, very similar - I spam Stalkers as Protoss, spam Roaches as Zerg, and while I usually have more Marines than Marauders as Terran, I certainly spam Siege Tanks. Given the relative power of Fungal Growth as anti-everything I also find myself generally just spamming Infestors instead of using Hydralisks or even Mutalisks. I'm banning these units from my use because I know it's possible to win against competent opponents without them - and I'm determined to figure out how. Reapers, Hellions, Ravens, Warp Prisms, High Templar... these are all units that don't see constant use in my games (if I use templar, it's typically just for feedback and archons, I almost never use storm anymore except against marine/medivac), and I'm determined to force myself to find a way to make them work inside a build. Zerg will probably prove itself to be a rather boring race, as far as tech trees go, because mutas and hydras are still used from time to time - it's just that since infestors are BETTER for the gas cost, I just don't use them as often as infestors.

In arranged team games, I'm going to do a slightly expanded version of something I used to do in random team - I will not allow myself to spend gas on any units except detectors (observers, overseers, and ravens.) All other units MUST be minerals only (zealots, warp prisms, queens, zerglings, marines, hellions.) I may still spend gas on structures, tech, and upgrades, but not on units (except for the detectors.) Excess gas, of course, will get funneled to my teammate. Doing this build as Protoss, I could end up with 300+ gas to feed him by time resource trading opened up.

Essentially I find the "spam the overpowered units mercilessly" of team games to be very boring, so I'm doing something to liven it up, and to prove that you CAN win without having to rely on broken units.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mister k » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:16 am UTC

As always BH, your insistence that some units are over powered distresses me, but the actual challenge seems worthy, allows one to practice different builds, and can surprise players as well. That said, how do you intend to deal with tanks? Banshees? Thor charge?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:33 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:I didn't even like Nerazim.

Me either, but there's only 3 vetos.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:03 pm UTC

If I still had the power to give titles, Beardhammer's would totally be xkcdIdrA

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:37 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:If I still had the power to give titles, Beardhammer's would totally be xkcdIdrA


Idra's just a kid. He has no real originality, no real ability to string together obscenities into barely coherent sentences while still somehow not breaking his keyboard. Idra would beat me in a game of SC2 but I'd kick the shit out of him at flaming and generally acting like a jerkass. While we're on the subject of Idra, have you seen the EG team picture, where he's standing next to Incontrol? Incontrol's chunky but the dude's only like six feet tall - Idra looks like a fucking 12 year old kid next to him. It's hilarious.

mister k wrote:As always BH, your insistence that some units are over powered distresses me, but the actual challenge seems worthy, allows one to practice different builds, and can surprise players as well. That said, how do you intend to deal with tanks? Banshees? Thor charge?


My reasoning:

- Stalkers are overpowered to the point that Protoss make almost nothing else out of gateways besides stalkers (and a few sentries, maybe more than a few vs terran for extra guardian shields vs marines) unless they're doing something like sentry-spam expand or zealot/archon. Vs Protoss? Make lots of Stalkers. Vs Zerg? Make lots of Stalkers. Vs Terran? Who fucking cares about Marauders, just make lots of Stalkers. Some of this could be that Zealots are - ironically - one of the best-balanced but least-useful units in the game (they're essentially useless as anything but 100-mineral mobile bullet sponges without pretty much an entire fucking army hand-holding for them, especially Sentries and Force Fields), but Stalkers themselves are amazingly powerful for their cost. Their only drawback is low DPS, but that's more than made up for by having 160 HP (half of which regenerates quickly out of combat), the same movement speed as slowlings (which is a huge +0.70 speed faster than nearly every other ranged unit, which typically move at 2.25), and have one of the highest-skill-rewarding (I can't think of a smooth term for it) abilities in Blink. With high APM and some ingenuity, Blink is nearly limitless, and allows Stalkers to drastically reduce the efficiency of their supposed soft-counters. Chargelots should do well vs Stalkers... but don't, because they can Blink away. Speedlings should be able to swarm Stalkers, but that won't work if they can blink up a cliff or even just blink to the top of a ramp and force the lings to engage 4 at a time. Even Ultralisks can be kited through use of Blink, creep bonus or not.

- Force Field is overpowered for what I'd consider obvious reasons, primarily relating to blocking ramps. Rather than go "I can use Force Field THIS way, but not THAT way," I've simplified things by removing its use entirely. The idea is to remove an overused spell (Force Field) and see if I can use an underused spell (Hallucination) to do many of the same things. Be awesome if I could hallucinate a Warp Prism and fill it with hallucinated Zealots :P

- Roaches are another one of those problematic units. Speedlings alone simply can't engage even t1 armies cost-effectively (you'll use up all your larva on lings, it's not about minerals), and Roaches are so important for stopping all kinds of dumb crap. I also feel that, by late game, 75/25/2 for a unit with 145 HP, good burst damage, and high movement speed (3.00) is pretty silly. At least Stalkers cost a lot, even though I think they have too much HP (it's really only their high HP that makes me call them OP.) Removing Roaches will force me out of the faceroll ROACHINFESTOR HNNNNNGGHHHHH GOGOGO mindset and make me actually require some positioning and - gasp - MICRO to win fights instead of spamming Roaches and more or less attack-moving while Infestors hide in the back gooping everything with Fungal Growth.

- Infestors are removed because with the Fungal Growth buff (DPS was doubled), they're way too much of an anti-everything unit now. Big things like Thors and Colossi? Neural Parasite them. Groups of any other unit? Spam Fungal. You can even do effective econ harass by spamming Infested Terrans (which are essentially Marines with +5 attack and no stim.) I really have issues with being able to chain Fungals - if you cast Fungal on targets already gooped, instead of doing nothing, it refreshes Fungal. That means if you make a single mistake (maybe you started moving the mutas two seconds late), whatever they're gooping is GUARANTEED to be dead unless they run out of energy first. Psionic Storm doesn't stack, and even causes friendly fire - why is Fungal Growth so special? If they wanna allow it to refresh itself, at least find a way to let armor affect it so it takes more casts to gib an entire blob of units. Really, though, if they nerf Fungal they're gonna have to finally realize that, yes, Hydralisks are too fucking SLOW and need a speed buff (because Infestors are pretty much Z's only real answer to mutalisk flocks or even large numbers of phoenixes, due to how incredibly slow hydras are off of creep.)

- Marauders are removed because I feel, more than their crazily high damage vs armored, concussive shells breaks the game, particularly by making stutterstep retard-proof. Stutterstepping with marines alone without completely gutting your damage output actually requires fairly high APM and some significant skill, which is why I'm fine with it (though, as psion mentioned, I wouldn't cry if they were to require a 0.10 sec "aiming" delay after stopping movement.) With Concussive Shells, it's comically easy, especially against things like Zealots and even Roaches. Marauders are, of course, obscenely effective against armored units for their cost as well - 20 DPS on a unit that only costs 100/25/2! Immortals only do 35 DPS versus armored targets, and they cost 250/100/4 (they're also much slower, have less range, and are produced slower, too!) Concussive Shells is the real reason I'm taking them out of play, but I'm not denying that their DPS vs armored is ridiculous for their cost (lol, stim.)

- Siege Tanks are removed because I just don't like what they do to the game, especially in TvT. Siege up, scan, take potshots, and either scoot forward 5 inches and repeat, or back off because he's doing it to you. It's tedious, frustrating... and I don't really see how it involves any skill once you understand the concept of leapfrogging. It's even worse in 2v2, largely due to very poor map design. Tempest is a good example - push out and camp a bunch of tanks in the center and it is literally impossible for them to approach your bases on the ground without having to deal with the tanks. It forces them do to drops and shit like that... which, now that you know they MUST do, are easy to look out for. There are other positions on other maps that are similarly stupid. It's not so much that I feel tanks are overpowered (they are, in significant numbers - like about 7 or more), but that I despise what they do to the game. I don't like camping in shooters, why would I like it in an RTS? And yet so many army compositions DEMAND you have tanks, or you're gonna get cornholed. Ugh.

As to answer your actual questions:

Banshees I don't see being a problem. I can have Phoenixes out as Protoss by time they arrive, Queens and Spore Crawlers can handle them as Protoss, and Marines handle them just fine as Terran (Vikings later on.) I expect I'll be doing a lot of 2gate/Phoenix or 3gate/Phoenix unless I feel I need the robo for an obs (and, given how stupidly popular Dark Templar rushes are, I probably will) right away. I've never encountered a successful Banshee rush in a team game (it leaves you way too vulnerable due to the exorbitant gas costs), and normal Banshee timings are easy to handle as long as you know it's coming.

Tanks I'll handle however I need to. I can lift them with Phoenixes, swarm them with mutas or lings (or just drop a nydus on their expos and force them to turn around and save their shit), or bring in ravens/banshees/battlecruisers. Tanks on their own aren't overpowered (much.) If I run into tank/infestor I'll probably just attempt a base trade and hope I kill their shit faster than they kill ours (infestors pretty much counter everything that counters tanks.)

I don't know what you mean by "Thor charge." You mean someone sending several Thors at me? Well, if I let him get that many Thors I probably lost to begin with. In smaller numbers I imagine lings, zealots, and marines will handle thors just fine. I can pop out immortals if I'm protoss, battlecruisers for terran (or more realistically, just spam more marines), and either lings or hydras as zerg. I don't think hydras can engage thors terribly favorably (thors do crazy-high ground DPS), but I think as long as they have lings or something else taking the shots they'd perform well.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:58 pm UTC

What about marines, zerglings, and queens? Are they overpowered too? (ok, lets not answer the one about marines)

I think I won't upgrade my main into an Orbital Command anymore because it is clearly overpowered, seeing that 99% of Terran's choose it over the Planetary Fortress.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:24 pm UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:I didn't even like Nerazim (the only new one I've played so far...). I really don't like tha main/nat. I feel like if banshees or mutas make an appearance there's just -so- far to run between the main and nat. If a zerg doesn't immediately get creep spread between them it will take anything hours to get to the other base to defend. I completely manhandled a diamond zerg by just dropping his main/nat constantly (he started putting a lot of spines in his mineral lines, so I went to poking at the front and running back to my siege line, while dropping his main and sniping infestation pits and spawning pools before he could get units back there. Seems wonderfully balanced...



Played a couple of games last night on Nerazim and Searing Crater, liked em both. Cross spots in TvZ will be tough because the map is so wide open (mutas and counter attacks) and securing a 4th as T will be all but impossible in an even game. In TvP, I can't imagine not going bio because the open space will make FF's less useful and mech will be too slow to prevent counters.

Searing Crater was fun to play on but in contrast to Nerazim I can't ever imagine not going heavy siege tank / mech on this map. So much high ground to abuse and the natural and third are easily defend-able.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:33 pm UTC

There is a relatively simple solution to animation cancelling.

We don't want the critter to be immoble for the entire animation for UI purposes (it isn't clear that the unit got your order if it doesn't respond). So instead, do something like half speed.

Ie, suppose a creature has a cooldown of 1 second, and an instant fire speed. Then if you order the unit to move during the cooldown, the cooldown proceeds at half speed and the unit moves at half speed (until the cooldown is done). Basically they are moving slower because they are busy reloading/recovering, and they reload/recover slower because they are busy moving.

Now your marines respond promptly to being told to move, but the net speed they move-and-attack at is the same regardless of your animation cancel.

Some particular units might be immune to this (the units that can already move-and-attack, like void rays).

Half should be enough that the critters respond to orders visually and promptly, but slow enough that stutter-step kiting isn't stupidly good and able to counter a units counters.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:09 pm UTC

rigwarl wrote:Orb-walking does not have any benefit over a standard animation cancel/stutter step in real WC3 (although some heroes you will want to manually cast your modifier to save mana).


0 seconds attack point, no benefit? O rly? It's especially visible on bone fletcher, but still noticeable for many heroes.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:52 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
rigwarl wrote:Orb-walking does not have any benefit over a standard animation cancel/stutter step in real WC3 (although some heroes you will want to manually cast your modifier to save mana).


0 seconds attack point, no benefit? O rly? It's especially visible on bone fletcher, but still noticeable for many heroes.


Ah, I wasn't that sure about DotA, I suspect you're right that it is shorter than a standard animation cancel (reason being the orb is taken from a different unit model so the backswing animation literally does not exist). However I think my previous statement is still correct and am like 90% sure that no wc3 ladder heroes have a shorter orb-walk backswing than an autocasted attack.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:32 pm UTC

rigwarl wrote:What about marines, zerglings, and queens? Are they overpowered too? (ok, lets not answer the one about marines)

I think I won't upgrade my main into an Orbital Command anymore because it is clearly overpowered, seeing that 99% of Terran's choose it over the Planetary Fortress.


Difference is, none of those are the least bit overpowered. People scream about marines being overpowered but I just don't see it unless you're willfully avoiding all forms of AOE. Fungal, storm, banelings, tanks, colossi, even hellions... they all pretty much blow right through marines.

The same doesn't hold true for stalkers because they have enormous HP. Hell, they can sit in an entire storm and still have half their health left. Yeah, they do less DPS, but when you have that much survivability DPS doesn't matter as much.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:46 pm UTC

Marine, no stim pack, has 45 HP, costs 50 minerals + 12.5 supply minerals, and deals ~7 DPS. Each +1 damage upgrade boosts DPS by 1.2 or so.

Stalkers have 80+80 HP, costs 125 minerals 25 gas (plus 25 minerals of supply) (at 4 gas:1 mineral ratio, that's ~250 minerals), and deals ~7 DPS. Each +1 damage upgrade increases DPS by 0.7 or so.

So for about 4 times the price, the stalker has 4 times the HP, and the same DPS as a single marine, and +1 range.

If you took marines and convinced them to not clump up, and simply replaced the ones that die with fresh ones from behind, marines are just as good at soaking AOE as a Stalker is. But I understand that is hard. So...

Break your army up into 4 groups and only throw 1 group at a time at the enemy, bringing the ones in back up after the ones in front are dead, and you'd get a pretty close emulation on the efficiency of Stalkers. Now any AOE will only kill 1 of your waves at a time. Defeating your entire marine army will require 4 such waves of AOE (one per group), which would also destroy the stalkers.

The stalker ... has a +1 armor (on only half of its HP), +1 range, and the ability to upgrade to blink. Upgrading stalker defences costs significantly more than marine defences (as you have to pay for both shields and armor), and upgrading stalker attack is ridiculously expensive (as 3 ranks of protoss weapon upgrade = 2 ranks of terrain, DPS wise). Marines are weak against high armor units, and stalkers get a damage bonus against armored targets (but are themselves armored).

And then there is stim pak and medivacs.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:37 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Break your army up into 4 groups and only throw 1 group at a time at the enemy, bringing the ones in back up after the ones in front are dead, and you'd get a pretty close emulation on the efficiency of Stalkers. Now any AOE will only kill 1 of your waves at a time. Defeating your entire marine army will require 4 such waves of AOE (one per group), which would also destroy the stalkers.

That's more than a bit silly. You want to have all your units engage at the same time, but they don't necessarily have to all be clumped up in the same place. Drops can spread out your marines while still allowing them to do something other than wait for their turn to die.

I don't mind stutter stepping itself. I'd actually be really upset if they removed it. It just gets a little ridiculous with the marine is all.
I think it was earlier in the beta when Colossus could cancel their attack animation and still do damage. Visually, the lasers would disappear before they would connect with their target. Now the animation almost has to fully complete before it does damage. Likewise, marines do damage instantly, and when the animation is cancelled it looks pretty silly. It's as though they're firing wildly into the air. All I'd want is a tiny delay in the attack animation before the attack actually does damage. It'd fix the visual bug and would tone down the marine very slightly when perfectly controlled.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:45 pm UTC

rigwarl wrote:. However I think my previous statement is still correct and am like 90% sure that no wc3 ladder heroes have a shorter orb-walk backswing than an autocasted attack.


Fired up WC3.
You are right!

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:47 pm UTC

So Beardhammer with all these OP units out there you must think this game is pretty imbalanced at all levels. Am I right in assuming that?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:14 pm UTC

psion wrote:
Yakk wrote:Break your army up into 4 groups and only throw 1 group at a time at the enemy, bringing the ones in back up after the ones in front are dead, and you'd get a pretty close emulation on the efficiency of Stalkers. Now any AOE will only kill 1 of your waves at a time. Defeating your entire marine army will require 4 such waves of AOE (one per group), which would also destroy the stalkers.

That's more than a bit silly. You want to have all your units engage at the same time, but they don't necessarily have to all be clumped up in the same place. Drops can spread out your marines while still allowing them to do something other than wait for their turn to die.

Yes, it is more than a bit silly that marines, divided into 4 groups, engaging one group at a time, are as tough as stalkers and do as much DPS as stalkers do. I was pointing out exactly how much stronger marines are than stalkers.

Cost per HP for marines is the same as stalkers.
DPS per marine is the same as stalkers.

Stalkers penetrate armor better (slower attacks), upgrade attacks slower, do damage to armored targets ... worse than marines do dollar-for-dollar, get blink, and belong to a race that can't build marines.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:26 pm UTC

The game is exceptionally well-balanced for one of its complexity between 3 diverse races. It's unfair to compare on a unit-to-unit basis. What if there's a game with:

Unit A: $50 unit with 100 hp and 10 damage
Unit B: $50 unit with 70 hp and 10 damage

However, Unit B's race get's money twice as fast. Now which of these two units is more overpowered? Not a trivial answer, especially when there are a ton of other units for each race. Think of SC2 as a more subtle version of that.

Also, while SC2 is deep, it's not THAT big. Of course there are going to be certain units that are used in the vast majority of games, which was what I was getting at when I mentioned marines- along with queens, and the orbital command. Hell, you could say the Warp Gate Research for 50m50g is way OP for it's price!

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:28 am UTC

TheBanana wrote:So Beardhammer with all these OP units out there you must think this game is pretty imbalanced at all levels. Am I right in assuming that?


I think that the win/loss balance is good, especially at high levels (the levels that matter.) Well, as long as you remove idiocy like close positions from the maps.

That doesn't mean it's balanced, though. Why are people constantly crying about marines being overpowered? Fungal Growth? Just because the win/loss statistic isn't out of whack doesn't mean something can't be unbalanced.

Are you really going to try and tell me stimrauders are a fair and balanced unit? They're not so absurdly broken that they give Terran an unfair advantage, but I imagine most people are willing to admit they're pretty fucking silly.

It's the same way with Stalkers, and with Roaches.

Yakk wrote:Break your army up into 4 groups and only throw 1 group at a time at the enemy, bringing the ones in back up after the ones in front are dead, and you'd get a pretty close emulation on the efficiency of Stalkers. Now any AOE will only kill 1 of your waves at a time. Defeating your entire marine army will require 4 such waves of AOE (one per group), which would also destroy the stalkers.


You're absolutely right. Run four smaller groups of marines into the tank line or infestor pile and tell me how it works out. You'll DEFINITELY do more damage than you would have if you blinked Stalkers in. I mean, fuck, you just figured out TvT, dude! All this time the pros are dicking around, scooting tanks here and there, when all they need to do is split their marines into four separate groups and then rush them at the tank line one by one!

Or you can understand that the durability of stalkers makes them extremely cost-efficient against nearly everything except, say, stimrauders (which, incidentally, is why PvT typically involves lots of Marauders) and maybe roaches if they can't kite or can't block them up with force fields.

Templar, for example, are a serious problem for MMM builds. A Marine is guaranteed to die if he spends any significant time in a storm - 20 DPS for four seconds on only 45 HP (why isn't he stimmed?) Stalkers can eat an entire storm and take only shield damage, and if you have Blink the storm is likely to deal literally only the first lovetap. It actually works this way for Fungal Growth, too. It will take three full Fungal Growth casts (225 energy total) to kill a Stalker, while it only takes two (150 energy) to kill a Marine. Additionally, because of Stalkers' large size, you will tag fewer Stalkers with one cast than you will Marines, which is why Terran players have been screaming about Infestors being OP lately (mainly because it means they can't play pure rine/tank anymore.)

But this is just comparing individual units in a vacuum. As part of a deathball, Stalkers are ludicrously cost-efficient, moreso than Marines are in a rine/tank build. One mistake can get your marines killed off (tanks are out of position, marines pushed too far from the tank umbrella), while the same isn't really true of Stalkers against most anything but lots and lots of Infestors (because of the dumb way you can chain Fungal Growths together with no time between for movement) or lots of stimrauders (because Marauders do terrible things to any armored unit.)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:46 am UTC

GSL's Mr Chae announces a Boxer vs YellOw showmatch on August 5th.

YellOw coming to SC2?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:03 pm UTC

GSL Spoilers:

Spoiler:
Again Leenock fails to get into Code S. So sad right now.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mister k » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:11 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
TheBanana wrote:So Beardhammer with all these OP units out there you must think this game is pretty imbalanced at all levels. Am I right in assuming that?


I think that the win/loss balance is good, especially at high levels (the levels that matter.) Well, as long as you remove idiocy like close positions from the maps.

That doesn't mean it's balanced, though. Why are people constantly crying about marines being overpowered? Fungal Growth? Just because the win/loss statistic isn't out of whack doesn't mean something can't be unbalanced.

Are you really going to try and tell me stimrauders are a fair and balanced unit? They're not so absurdly broken that they give Terran an unfair advantage, but I imagine most people are willing to admit they're pretty fucking silly.

It's the same way with Stalkers, and with Roaches.

Yakk wrote:Break your army up into 4 groups and only throw 1 group at a time at the enemy, bringing the ones in back up after the ones in front are dead, and you'd get a pretty close emulation on the efficiency of Stalkers. Now any AOE will only kill 1 of your waves at a time. Defeating your entire marine army will require 4 such waves of AOE (one per group), which would also destroy the stalkers.


You're absolutely right. Run four smaller groups of marines into the tank line or infestor pile and tell me how it works out. You'll DEFINITELY do more damage than you would have if you blinked Stalkers in. I mean, fuck, you just figured out TvT, dude! All this time the pros are dicking around, scooting tanks here and there, when all they need to do is split their marines into four separate groups and then rush them at the tank line one by one!

Or you can understand that the durability of stalkers makes them extremely cost-efficient against nearly everything except, say, stimrauders (which, incidentally, is why PvT typically involves lots of Marauders) and maybe roaches if they can't kite or can't block them up with force fields.

Templar, for example, are a serious problem for MMM builds. A Marine is guaranteed to die if he spends any significant time in a storm - 20 DPS for four seconds on only 45 HP (why isn't he stimmed?) Stalkers can eat an entire storm and take only shield damage, and if you have Blink the storm is likely to deal literally only the first lovetap. It actually works this way for Fungal Growth, too. It will take three full Fungal Growth casts (225 energy total) to kill a Stalker, while it only takes two (150 energy) to kill a Marine. Additionally, because of Stalkers' large size, you will tag fewer Stalkers with one cast than you will Marines, which is why Terran players have been screaming about Infestors being OP lately (mainly because it means they can't play pure rine/tank anymore.)

But this is just comparing individual units in a vacuum. As part of a deathball, Stalkers are ludicrously cost-efficient, moreso than Marines are in a rine/tank build. One mistake can get your marines killed off (tanks are out of position, marines pushed too far from the tank umbrella), while the same isn't really true of Stalkers against most anything but lots and lots of Infestors (because of the dumb way you can chain Fungal Growths together with no time between for movement) or lots of stimrauders (because Marauders do terrible things to any armored unit.)



In a vacuum, of course. The issue with your wild claims is that you'll note no-one agrees with you. You are not a pro, you do not play at the highest level, so your experience of the game isn't the same as where it needs to be balanced. When I started playing I thought void rays were absurd after they slaughtered my vikings. I didn't macro enough, so didn't have enough vikings, and didn't micro very well. I didn't realise either of these things at the time, and felt like there was nothing I could have done. I was wrong.

I appreciate that some units can make for boring play- some people really hate siege line play between terran players, and thats fine, its nice to play more interestingly, and theres nothing too wrong with that- different and interesting strategies really can succeed (I feel like hellions are seeing much more play than they used to, ferinstance). But to suggest one unit is too overpowered- well thats just silly.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:19 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:It actually works this way for Fungal Growth, too. It will take three full Fungal Growth casts (225 energy total) to kill a Stalker, while it only takes two (150 energy) to kill a Marine.

A Stalker costs upwards of 4 times as much as a marine, and is only 50% more durable against Fungal Growth?

You seem to be completely ignoring cost. I actually also screwed up the cost -- 125 minerals 50 gas, 25 supply minerals. At a mere 3 gas:1 minerals cost ratio that's the equivalent of almost 5 marines (250 minerals plus 62.5 minerals of supply). And stalkers only have 4 times the HP of a marine.

Stalkers have 1 more point of armor, they don't naturally cluster as close, 1 more unit of range, and one fucking sixth the damage that marines have (cost for cost). They do move quicker than marines, which is also awesome. They also are weaker at soaking up damage, cost-per-cost, than marines. And this isn't because marines are really good at soaking up damage, but rather because stalkers are really fucking expensive for what they do.

Marines get stim, stalkers get blink. Don't get me wrong: blink is really awesome.

But if I, as a Protoss, could build marines, I'd very rarely build stalkers. Hell, if I could build 75 mineral marines, I'd still build fucking extra-expensive marines instead of stalkers in most situations. These marines would cover the "T1/2 unit that can attack air" hole in the Protoss lineup much better than stalkers.

Stalkers are not cost efficient, they are ridiculously slow at killing things. Go ahead and find me a unit that stalkers are cost-efficient at killing.

Lets look at 5 marines vs one stalker. The stalker doesn't win because they are durable -- the stalker wins by kiting. In a stand-up fight the marines clean up. I think you'd lose what, 1 or 2 marines?

Protoss build tonnes of stalkers because it is among one of the best "general purpose" units they have, not because stalkers are good units. Protoss general purpose units suck. Which is why collossi and sentries and templar are so key.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Coin » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:15 pm UTC

Easy on the language there. No need to swear in a polite discussion. Take a time-out if you're agitated.

My hard-drive crashed earlier in the week and now I'm (not) looking forward to the loooong installation process of SC2 again.

The friend who just got SC2 has been watching lots of Day9 instructions videos and is coming along nicely now as well.
I've told him to go play more 1v1 on the ladder, but he seems to be very attached to 2v2s where others can carry him, which is a problem.
He mustn't get used to playing that way.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:45 pm UTC

Yakk wrote: Go ahead and find me a unit that stalkers are cost-efficient at killing.


Uncharged void rays... and... uh... overlords?
They can also kite unupgraded zealots very easily.

Coin wrote:Easy on the language there. No need to swear in a polite discussion. Take a time-out if you're agitated.


Beard is very, very wrong, and apparently unable to envision the possibility, so I understand his irritation :p.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:53 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
TheBanana wrote:So Beardhammer with all these OP units out there you must think this game is pretty imbalanced at all levels. Am I right in assuming that?


I think that the win/loss balance is good, especially at high levels (the levels that matter.) Well, as long as you remove idiocy like close positions from the maps.

That doesn't mean it's balanced, though. Why are people constantly crying about marines being overpowered? Fungal Growth? Just because the win/loss statistic isn't out of whack doesn't mean something can't be unbalanced.

Are you really going to try and tell me stimrauders are a fair and balanced unit? They're not so absurdly broken that they give Terran an unfair advantage, but I imagine most people are willing to admit they're pretty fucking silly.

It's the same way with Stalkers, and with Roaches.


Yes I will. And you're the only person I've ever heard claim that marauders are OP. They do shit in terms of dps to non-armored units and can barely kite speed zealots anymore. If it wasn't for the fact that they can take a lot of damage from colossi and storms I would never bother with them.

And I also think you just contradicted yourself by saying marauders don't give terran an unfair advantage. The entire reasoning behind claiming a unit is OP is that one believes it gives a race an unfair advantage.

People complain about certain unit compositions because they either don't know how to counter it or they have to go out of their way to counter it. People complain about marines, thors, infestors, banelings, mutas, archons, templars, mules, planetary fortresses, void rays, forcefields, mass droning etc etc etc etc etc.
I remember when a guy cannon rushed me, failed and then walled in the bottom of my ramp with cannons and when I got siege tanks out left while bitching about how siege tanks are OP. People are stupid.
Also, people just love to complain. It's human nature.


And finally, according to Blizzard, maps with close spawn positions are generally among the most balanced 1v1 maps out there. I imagine this may not be true at pro level play but it is food for thought.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:54 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:GSL Spoilers:

Spoiler:
Again Leenock fails to get into Code S. So sad right now.


:(
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:35 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Protoss build tonnes of stalkers because it is among one of the best "general purpose" units they have, not because stalkers are good units.


THEN WHY DO PROTOSS SPAM STALKERS EVEN IN THE FACE OF COUNTERS TO STALKERS?

Why are they making more Stalkers when the Terran is almost pure Marauder/Medivac? Why aren't they making more Chargelots and more Archons? There is no air to worry about, and archons can handle the medivacs as well as the marauders (so can the sentries.)

Why are Protoss spamming Stalkers even against Roach/Infestor? Roaches beat Stalkers if the Stalkers can't kite them around and Infestors prevent that kiting with Fungal Growth. Yet you see them spam Stalkers, anyway. There aren't mutalisks to worry about. You might need to be concerned about Corruptors picking at your Colossi, but Colossi aren't great vs Roaches to begin with (unless you have several) and you need High Templar to zap the Infestors... and besides, Archons are ridiculously good against Roaches as long as they have some support (like a wall of zealots.)

Hell, in team games: why do Protoss spam Stalkers constantly, regardless of enemy team composition?

Because they are overpowered. It's the same reason Zerg spams Roaches. For their cost, they are simply too strong. Too much HP, too much mobility. Their damage isn't even terrible - it's just not amazing like the Thor's ground DPS or a stimmed Marine's. Marauders do solid DPS regardless of what they're shooting at - assuming Stim (and that's a given once the game goes past about 6-7 minutes), they're doing 20 DPS to armored and 10 DPS to everything else. You realize that 10 stimmed DPS is just slightly under a Marine's 10.5 stimmed DPS, right? Obviously you'll see more Marines than Marauders for the same cost, which means the Marines will of course do more DPS... but the Marauders will be less impacted by Armor (a Marine shooting a Zealot with +1 armor and no shields is literally doing 1/3 less damage, while a Marauder only loses 20%... the Marauder is doing MORE damage per second than the Marine is doing, and this is against a non-armored target), and are further less impacted by things like Guardian Shield, and because of their 6 range even get a minor benefit in that they're a little less affected by things like Force Field separating.

Look at the three base, minerals-only units each race has. You see them all game, every game (unless they're doing something REALLY screwy), and yet not a single one of them is overpowered - not even close. Zerglings do good DPS, cost virtually nothing but larva, and are crazily fast - yet have virtually no HP and entire packs of them get gibbed by ANYTHING even remotely similar to AOE. Marines are like a ranged, slow Zergling - they do great DPS, cost very little, and can hit air and ground, but again... have very little HP and because of their naturally slow movement speed (using Stim costs them about 20% of their already low HP) also tend to get torn up by any sort of significant DPS. Zealots are kind of the other way around, yet are still balanced very well. They do almost as much DPS as the (unstimmed) Marine and Zergling combined, have a ridiculous amount of HP for a minerals-only unit (150 combined, 100 HP 50 Shields), and even get 1 Armor base (something no other minerals-only unit except Queens get, as far as I know)... yet they have lousy mobility, and still barely qualify as having decent mobility after a 200/200 t2 upgrade. Zealots don't really get gibbed by AOE, but instead typically just have issues delivering their damage, especially if you aren't making tons and tons of them, because they they don't even have the potential to get even a partial surround, and don't have the movement speed to create one against most ranged units, anyway.

But look at the t1.5 units. Stalkers, Roaches, and Marauders all have excellent HP for their cost, Roaches and Stalkers have superb mobility and even better survivability with high APM micro, and Marauders have extremely high DPS for a t1.5 unit vs Armored units (20 DPS.) Storm, Fungal Growth, even Siege Tanks (again, we're talking like maybe 3-4 tanks, not a wall of 10+ tanks which WILL gib anything on the ground, even Ultralisks) don't really do amazingly well versus them. Roaches can almost literally ignore Psionic Storm with Tunneling Claws - their 10 HP/sec regeneration while burrowed almost outheals the damage from Psionic Storm. Fungal Growth affects all three of them well - but because all of them are much larger than the t1 minerals units, each Fungal will hit fewer units than versus their Marine/Zergling/Zealot counterparts... and because they have more HP, the damage is less severe. Goop a pile of Marines and they're just a breath away from death. Goop a pile of Marauders and they'll still have half their HP left. The same thing applies to Zerglings and Roaches, though it doesn't hold true for Zealots and Stalkers (Zealots are less affected by it because of their high HP and Light status, but if you were to goop a pile of Zealots and a pile of Stalkers, you would hit more Zealots than Stalkers due to size differences.)

I agree, you see Stalkers (and to a somewhat lesser extent, Roaches) spammed because they're a terrific all-purpose unit. But I've seen Protoss players keep spamming Stalkers even when Zealots are SUPPOSED to be a better choice - like when they're pushing a bunker, Zealots with Guardian Shield are flat-out better simply because they do more DPS and the Bunker can't kite them. You still need Stalkers to pick off repairing SCVs (if you can't just force field them away), but I've seen Protoss players spam Stalkers anyway, even with numerous Marauders on the field. Why? Zealots aren't underpowered - they're quite possibly the best-balanced unit in the game. You're talking about a situation that's damned near tailor-made for a Zealot-heavy push... and they make Stalkers anyway. And these are high-level players, not some random Gold/Platinum dude.

But I think citing numbers and theorycrafting is pointless here. If you look purely at the numbers, Stalkers look like they're coming out way behind, and yet in practice that's absolutely not true. You can't really factor micro skill level into a pure numbers game :)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:35 pm UTC

I don't think any of the units Beard said are OP.

However.

Didn't Day[9] say that he thought stalkers were too strong in PvZ at the moment (with perfect blink micro).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Beardhammer » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:41 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:I don't think any of the units Beard said are OP.

However.

Didn't Day[9] say that he thought stalkers were too strong in PvZ at the moment (with perfect blink micro).


Even "okay" Blink micro makes them extremely effective. With Force Fields, you can't really get many lings in there (and any lings that do get in will be tied up with the handful of zealots they've got for that specific reason), and Roaches can't really successfully engage Stalkers unless it's in a wide open area where they can get around the Stalkers' range advantage (preferably on creep so they can also negate the Stalkers' speed advantage.)

The Fungal Growth buff was, in my opinion, done in large part because Zerg can have some significant issues with well-used Stalkers, and even then Fungal doesn't really do a huge amount of damage to them - you're looking at three PERFECT casts to kill a Stalker (which means no regooping them until AFTER the first Fungal has run its course.)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby rigwarl » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:46 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:THEN WHY DO PROTOSS SPAM STALKERS... Because they are overpowered.


Duh, don't you remember when they interviewed HuK and they asked him what his general gameplan is?

"Always make Stalkers, because they are overpowered."

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:59 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
The Fungal Growth buff was, in my opinion, done in large part because Zerg can have some significant issues with well-used Stalkers, and even then Fungal doesn't really do a huge amount of damage to them - you're looking at three PERFECT casts to kill a Stalker (which means no regooping them until AFTER the first Fungal has run its course.)


Sometimes the effective counter to a unit is a combination of units. You fungal the stalkers (splash), drop banelings (more splash) and have lings biting at the outside of the group. Lings and banelings are much easier to make and remake than stalkers, as long as you don't lose the infestors.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:35 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:I don't think any of the units Beard said are OP.

However.

Didn't Day[9] say that he thought stalkers were too strong in PvZ at the moment (with perfect blink micro).


Well I think he was referring to blink stalkers on Xel'naga Caverns if I remember correctly. That map is a blink stalker's paradise. In terms of early game 1 base blink stalkers then yes, blink stalkers may be a bit strong against Z. But a couple spines, good creep and roach/ling will generally kill that pressure no problem.



And honestly I don't know what Beardhammer is talking about. I rarely see Protoss spam stalkers nowadays. Occasionally in PvZ match ups when the zerg over makes corruptors against the colossi ball then yes, I'll see toss spam stalkers in order to immediately push again but that's the only scenario really.

I also vaguely remember an MC vs Idra game where a 2 base MC hit a 2/2 timing with blink stalkers and crushed a 3 base Idra. Mind you, Idra's creep spread was terrible, engagement was off creep, and Idra had no upgrades... so yeah, not imbalanced.

You'd have to be an idiot to just spam stalkers against marine/marauder/medivac.

People spam stalkers in team games because #1 there's a lot of bad players in team games and #2 you have a team to help balance out your unit composition so going for just one unit isn't always that bad.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby llamanaru » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:14 pm UTC

Not quite starcraft 2, but it's still related. Korean sketch comedy is funny.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:44 pm UTC

llamanaru wrote:Not quite starcraft 2, but it's still related. Korean sketch comedy is funny.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3xOvu1XATM

dem fucking koreans man

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:06 pm UTC

llamanaru wrote:Not quite starcraft 2, but it's still related. Korean sketch comedy is funny.

That show is so silly. It's Japanese, though.

Beardhammer wrote:But look at the t1.5 units. Stalkers, Roaches, and Marauders

I guess all races have an overpowered unit, making things imbalanced. Wait a second...
I've always liked the concept of balance through imbalance that Starcraft has used. Would you consider BW imbalanced? Because it's basically the same thing. Tanks, hydra, zerglings, reavers... all pretty damn powerful. We could play a more generic RTS like Supreme Commander, where all the race's units are just slight variations of each other. Or we could play some mother fucking Starcraft. Yeah!

Anyway, I think it should be noted that you're primarily coming from a 2v2 background, where I believe you've mentioned that the game shouldn't be balanced around.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:14 pm UTC

rigwarl wrote:"Always make Stalkers, because they are overpowered."


Well, they are if you're Huk.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:31 pm UTC

Beardhammer wrote:
Yakk wrote:Protoss build tonnes of stalkers because it is among one of the best "general purpose" units they have, not because stalkers are good units.

THEN WHY DO PROTOSS SPAM STALKERS EVEN IN THE FACE OF COUNTERS TO STALKERS?

Because zealots suck as much as stalkers, and sentries are hard to use and/or they already have enough sentries to the casting they need?
Why are they making more Stalkers when the Terran is almost pure Marauder/Medivac? Why aren't they making more Chargelots and more Archons? There is no air to worry about, and archons can handle the medivacs as well as the marauders (so can the sentries.)

Archons are ridiculously expensive. Chargelots are melee units, and melee units don't scale well because the AI brings them in on columns (making their micro really hard), and their max damage output is bounded by surface area while your opponents range 5 unit damage output is bounded by a depth 5 surface area. Linear vs quadratic power scaling.

Sentries are very good casters, and T1/2 protoss suck because they have sentry support. Nobody else has anywhere near a unit as strong as the protoss sentry in T1/T2.

And you continue to compare units on a unit-per-unit basis for whatever reason.

And HuK's stalkers are great with his insane micro, but his sentries are godly.


One Archon (dark templar route) is 250 minerals 250 gas (generally considered cheaper than 100 minerals 300 gas templar based one, because gas is worth more than 3 times as much as minerals) and 4 supply (or 50 minerals worth of supply).

One stalker is 125 minerals 50 gas and 2 supply (or 25 minerals worth of supply).

At a cheap 3 gas:1 mineral, that's 1050 minerals vs 300 minerals, or 1 archon is worth 3.5 stalkers. So let's look at 1/3.5th of an archon.

10/35th of an Archon DPS is 8.8 with splash, and HP is 102.8. +0.65 DPS per upgrade.

One Stalker is 10.9 against armored (which roaches are), and HP is 160. +0.7 DPS per upgrade.

Stalkers have a point of armor by default on half their HP.

Defensive upgrades on the Archon require shield upgrades.
Colossi aren't great vs Roaches to begin with (unless you have several)

Collossi are decent against Roaches. Sure, it takes more than one round to drop them -- but with low Roach DPS, you have lots of rounds to do it.
Hell, in team games: why do Protoss spam Stalkers constantly, regardless of enemy team composition?

Because Stalkers, like Marines, are ground units that attack air. And they aren't hard to use like sentries.

Stalkers are the only protoss ground unit that attacks air. So a protoss player either has to build air-to-air power (and lose against ground that attacks air, like marines or stalkers), or rely on allies to be able to defend against air attacks.
Their damage isn't even terrible - it's just not amazing like the Thor's ground DPS or a stimmed Marine's.

Their damage is great, except they are a unit that costs a huge amount. They are the most expensive T1/2 unit in the game. And their damage output per second is the same as the 2nd cheapest T1 unit in the game. (and I'm not talking about stim)

Throw 50 stalkers against 50 T1/2 units and the 50 stalkers do great (except maybe marauders). But the cost-to-cost level is more like 25 stalkers against 50-75 T1/T2 units, and that is why stalkers are far from overpowered.
the Marauder is doing MORE damage per second than the Marine is doing

Why do you keep on comparing 1 marine to 1 marauder? Unit to unit comparisons, without paying attention to huge cost differences, are ridiculous. Marauders cost about 3.2 times as much as a Marine.

Marauders are useful for their acceptable anti-armored damage output and concussive shells. Cost-for-cost they aren't that good at tanking. Their DPS against non-armored is abysmal. Against armored, their damage output is acceptable.
Zealots are kind of the other way around, yet are still balanced very well. They do almost as much DPS as the (unstimmed) Marine and Zergling combined,

Lets compare a 1/2 supply 25 mineral unit, a 1 supply 50 mineral unit, and a 2 supply 100 mineral unit on a unit-vs-unit basis.

This sounds like a great idea!
have a ridiculous amount of HP for a minerals-only unit (150 combined, 100 HP 50 Shields),

Or 1.5 HP for every mineral.

A value that zerglings match, by the way.

(Zerglings weakness is the high cost of larva, and choke points. Pack them tightly and splash damage gets them don't pack them tightly and the splash damage attackers get to reload.)
I agree, you see Stalkers (and to a somewhat lesser extent, Roaches) spammed because they're a terrific all-purpose unit.

Roaches aren't all-purpose units. Roaches are anti-ground units.
Zealots aren't underpowered - they're quite possibly the best-balanced unit in the game.

Possibly this is where you are wrong.

Zealots are expensive bullet sponges. Don't get me wrong -- I love them! I love them because the AI is stupid enough to attack my zealots and ignore the units behind the zealots which the AI should be attacking.

It isn't the stalker that is strong, or the zealot. Sure, on a unit-per-unit basis both are decent units -- but they are ridiculously expensive units for their strength. The sentry is the T1/2 protoss unit that is far and above better than any other races T1/T2 unit: so much so that the suck of stalkers and zealots can be made up for.

(Well, that and warpgate research, which gives protoss the ability to exploit successful attacks better than any other race)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:26 pm UTC

I do like the idea that every unit in SC2 is 'broken', so that they are all cool to use and feel powerful.

The most genuinely overpowered thing in the game right now is the Sensor Tower. Build one at a base and you are drop proof. Build one on the map and it's a Xelnaga Tower. The radius needs to be reduced quite a bit.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

Spambot5546
Posts: 1466
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:34 pm UTC

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:08 am UTC

I feel like we're running out of units Beardhammer hasn't declared OP.
"It is bitter – bitter", he answered,
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."


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