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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Jave D » Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:00 am UTC

I was reading the other day and had a thought as to what's gonna happen, and some other little things I noticed.

Spoiler:
Dany's visions in the House of the Undying - most of those seem to have come true, or at least could come true. The Red Wedding is seen, up to and including details like Robb with Grey Wind's head sewn on him. But what interests me is this: "Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow." That sounds like Stannis - he's a king, he wields a glowing red sword, and Melisandre has been sucking the "life-fire" from him to create shadow-assassin(s). His eyes are described as very dark blue, but the wights have blue eyes. I hypothesize that Melissandre will suck too much life-fire from him, taking away his shadow and leaving him as a wight and/or Other, fighting for the side of "ice" against Dany's fire.
Another thing is immediately after this vision she saw a cloth dragon being puppeted around before a cheering crowd. Stannis + Melissandre will be dragon pretenders - the glowing (but not burning!) sword, fulfiliment of the Azhor Azhai prophecy, Dragonstone. But they will be on the side of ice.

Other little things. Gendry in the brothel where he and Arya meet Bella the whore, who claims to be one of Robert's bastards (and seems to have the characteristic black hair). It's not known whether he went and "rang her bell" as he said to Arya (he maybe said that just to make her go away, or something), but if he did Gendry fucked his half-sister. :p

And another thing with Arya. She meets a Frey son who was going to marry a "princess," and that princess was unbeknownst to her to have been either Sansa or herself once Robb freed/found them. (He wasn't going to marry her now because of Robb and Jeyne Westerling. In a fit of anger she says, "I hope your princess dies!" Arya, you bad girl.


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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:06 am UTC

Jave D wrote:
Spoiler:
And another thing with Arya. She meets a Frey son who was going to marry a "princess," and that princess was unbeknownst to her to have been either Sansa or herself once Robb freed/found them. (He wasn't going to marry her now because of Robb and Jeyne Westerling. In a fit of anger she says, "I hope your princess dies!" Arya, you bad girl.


Spoiler:
Arya was also supposed to have married one of the Freys as part of the marriage pact. I can't remember if the name of the Frey she is supposed to marry is ever mentioned, but it was definitely supposed to be her future husband. Sansa was still betrothed of Joffrey at the time IIRC.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Ulc » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:31 am UTC

So, in a mere 13 hours, it will be possible to buy the book at the midnight opening at a store here in the city.

I'm going to be awfully busy for the next week though, so I don't have any time to disappear for three days straight. And I have to be at lab at 07:00 at the very latest tomorrow.

I am now facing the realisation that I wont be buying it on the first day, possible not even the first week. This is making me very sad.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Sarr » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:13 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:I am now facing the realization that I wont be buying it on the first day, possible not even the first week. This is making me very sad.
I realized this today as well, and it pisses me off because it's my own damn fault that I'm not gonna have enough money for it. Quite frustrating.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby blu » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:45 am UTC

I'm sure I won't be able to get one here until the next print run. No rush I guess.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby natraj » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:12 pm UTC

I am hot and sweaty and tired and my leg is bleeding and my bike got a flat BUT I have obtained my copy and am in line for a booksigning. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:21 pm UTC

Oh you live in Boston? My boss was thinking of not coming in today to goto the signing
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby natraj » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:20 pm UTC

Yeah I do. I am definitely supposed to be at work today >.> Actually, I didn't skip work for this, I skipped work because I've been horribly sick... but that didn't stop me from biking six miles to get my copy. I have been waiting five years, ebola could not stop me!
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Yakk » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:50 pm UTC

I haz reservation for a book at a small bookstore (owned by the parents of a high school friend of mine).

Don't know if I'll get it today.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Grave » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:00 am UTC

So I just finished A Dance With Dragons, and I definitely enjoyed more the the previous book (probably because it had most of my favorite characters). I probably missed a whole bunch due to not having read the first four in a while, so now I have to go fix that.

For anyone who's finished the book:
Spoiler:
Do you think Jon is actually dead? He's one of the few characters I actually expected to live through to the conclusion of the series, and it would sort of surprise me if he were killed off. He's not dead until we see a body [and maybe not even then], but still.

Also, am I crazy or did Brienne most certainly die a book or two ago?

Finally: Aegon out of nowhere. I did not even a little bit see that coming.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:15 pm UTC

I haven't had a chance to buy and read the new book yet. Review the spoiler policies before posting anything.

...

this isn't me chiding anyone, for the record. No one's done anything yet. This is me just putting a warning up that if things are spoiled I will be..... cross. Quite cross.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Yakk » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:16 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Oh my god, Ned is alive?
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby pseudoidiot » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:18 pm UTC

You wouldn't like him when he's angry.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:10 am UTC

Grave wrote:So I just finished A Dance With Dragons, and I definitely enjoyed more the the previous book (probably because it had most of my favorite characters). I probably missed a whole bunch due to not having read the first four in a while, so now I have to go fix that.

For anyone who's finished the book:
Spoiler:
Do you think Jon is actually dead? He's one of the few characters I actually expected to live through to the conclusion of the series, and it would sort of surprise me if he were killed off. He's not dead until we see a body [and maybe not even then], but still.

Also, am I crazy or did Brienne most certainly die a book or two ago?

Finally: Aegon out of nowhere. I did not even a little bit see that coming.


Spoiler:
I was a bit shocked by Jon's death as well. I'm guessing maybe he'll get resurrected by Melisandre? Lots of other stuff in that chapter that was a little troubling--Stannis dead too? Mance captured? If Jon is dead for real, it's not clear who would be the natural person to pick up the Wall storyline. Val maybe? Melisandre herself?

Brienne was hung, but it was written in such a way that it was not explicitly clear that she died. A lot of people were speculating that she had shouted "Sword" just before she died (the text said she said one word just before the noose closed around her throat), and agreed to bring Jamie to Catelyn in exchange for the lives of herself and her companions.

There are some fairly subtle clues earlier in the series that point to Aegon being alive. If you're curious, dig around on some of the fan sites for the series and you should come across them. I think there will be some people very surprised that he was not a character already introduced (eg. Jon Snow).

The only thing I'm a little surprised about is how little actual movement there was in this book. I had expected, for example, that Dany would be on the move, Tyrion and Dany would meet, the Others would finally come in force. Instead... everybody is pretty much where they were when the story began. Not that things haven't happened, just not as much forward motion as I was expecting, especially given how much ground will likely need to be covered in the next two (hah! maybe 5?) books to finish the series.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Ulc » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:29 am UTC

Today is the day. Today I get to buy dance.. now I'm working on figuring out how to read it without disappearing for three days straight, only to crawl out my apartment and wonder "when was the last time I ate?"

I think strictly enforcing bed times and putting the book well away from my bed might be part of the solution.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:41 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Grave wrote:So I just finished A Dance With Dragons, and I definitely enjoyed more the the previous book (probably because it had most of my favorite characters). I probably missed a whole bunch due to not having read the first four in a while, so now I have to go fix that.

For anyone who's finished the book:
Spoiler:
Do you think Jon is actually dead? He's one of the few characters I actually expected to live through to the conclusion of the series, and it would sort of surprise me if he were killed off. He's not dead until we see a body [and maybe not even then], but still.

Also, am I crazy or did Brienne most certainly die a book or two ago?

Finally: Aegon out of nowhere. I did not even a little bit see that coming.


Spoiler:
I was a bit shocked by Jon's death as well. I'm guessing maybe he'll get resurrected by Melisandre? Lots of other stuff in that chapter that was a little troubling--Stannis dead too? Mance captured? If Jon is dead for real, it's not clear who would be the natural person to pick up the Wall storyline. Val maybe? Melisandre herself?

Brienne was hung, but it was written in such a way that it was not explicitly clear that she died. A lot of people were speculating that she had shouted "Sword" just before she died (the text said she said one word just before the noose closed around her throat), and agreed to bring Jamie to Catelyn in exchange for the lives of herself and her companions.

There are some fairly subtle clues earlier in the series that point to Aegon being alive. If you're curious, dig around on some of the fan sites for the series and you should come across them. I think there will be some people very surprised that he was not a character already introduced (eg. Jon Snow).

The only thing I'm a little surprised about is how little actual movement there was in this book. I had expected, for example, that Dany would be on the move, Tyrion and Dany would meet, the Others would finally come in force. Instead... everybody is pretty much where they were when the story began. Not that things haven't happened, just not as much forward motion as I was expecting, especially given how much ground will likely need to be covered in the next two (hah! maybe 5?) books to finish the series.


Spoiler:
Yeah, I'm not buying that Jon is anything more than mostly dead. I'd thought about the possibility of Melisadre rezing him too. (Which I'm sure would go over REALLY well.) I just can't imagine that Martin is done with him at this point. Plus Martin was still fairly blatantly teasing us over the identity of Jon's parents. If Jon's actually dead-dead, Matin would lose some of the fun of dragging that out. ;)

As for Stannis, I'm not buying that he's even partly dead. We know that Theon and Jeyne made it to Stannis' camp from the last Theon chapter. We know that Ramsey doesn't have Theon or Jeyne from his letter. I suppose it's possible they could have escaped during the battle, but I'm just not buying it. I don't think there was anything in that letter that he couldn't have gotten out of Mance or one of the spearwives. Time will tell, of course.

Now, Quentyn and Kevan are most assuredly dead-dead, as I see it. Kevan's death certainly lends credence to the idea that even if Ned had had a brain back in book 1, it would have only delayed things going to hell in a handbasket.

Out of curiosity, where do people figure Rickon is hanging out? Greywater Watch still seem like the most likely candidate? Editted to answer my own question: no, apparently he's on Skagos. I'd missed that.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:24 pm UTC

Spoiler:
So, I hit the spoiler button on the "Jon" post above just before I started the chapter in question. Stupid me. :)

Yes, I've been looking for Aegon for a while.

Jon may or may not be dead-dead. GRRM is pretty ruthless when someone does stupid things, like undermining your own power base like Jon did over this book (to the point where many of the watch only followed him out of honor), then proceeding to break his oaths (which makes the honorable thing to do to kill him for the sake of the watch). On the other hand, we have the Red Priestess going on and on about how important Jon is, and evidence that they can heal things that are near, or at, death.

On the third hand, it has been a while since GRRM has gone off and killed a seeming central character. :)

Brienne could have been saved before she was hung, or she could have been brought back in the same way Lady Stark was.

This book really was a Dance of Dragons, with the exception of the story at the wall. We had Tyrion, Frog, Aegon, the Iron Fleet, Daenerys -- all maneuvering to raise the Targaryen banner above Westros or otherwise dancing with the dragons.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby natraj » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:54 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Jon better not be really dead I am pissed! After Arya and Tyrion he is my favorite. If Melisandre doesn't save him probably he will just do some warg-thing with Ghost.

But maybe he should be dead, I am getting kind of sick of everyone fake-dying and then haha, actually they're still alive! It has been undermining this "anyone can die" thing. At least Quenten and Kevan are FOR SURE dead.

My brother's comment about Rickon/Davos: "The Rickon cliffhanger was not exciting. He's in a place where they eat humans... So it could be anywhere in westeros these days." That made me laugh. I want to see Skagos though. It can't be creepier than the Boltons. Theon's chapters were all so squicky. He deserved it though.

Also, FREY PIE. Haha. Manderley is the best.


ETA: Also, in non-spoilery stylistic thoughts, what on earth was with EVERY SINGLE PERSON saying "words are wind" all of a sudden, it was like this constant refrain everywhere. Additionally it was difficult to get through two pages without some variation of "much/many and more" or "little and less" being used over and over.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:56 pm UTC

So I finally finished the book today and I'm still trying to figure out what I really think about it but right now I am feeling mostly underwhelmed. I was initially disappointed by the previous book because after the long wait it didn't have any of my favorite characters but later I reread it and really appreciated the Cersei & Jaime story lines so I ended up kind of liking it. This one actually has all my favorite characters yet I feel just as ambiguous about it as I initially did about the previous one.

Spoiler:
For the first three books Tyrion was awesome and I always wanted to see what he would do next. This book though would've been improved if his chapters were significantly cut down. Everything after meeting Penny felt completely pointless. I am almost convinced that in previous books Martin would've handled it by showing Mormont capture him and then having him appear in Mereen with a mercenary company, letting the readers figure out that he was one of the jousting dwarves and maybe having a single monologue in which he wittily summarizes his adventure when being introduced to Daenerys or something of the sort.

Ten chapters of Daenerys plus several chapters of other people in Mereen and in the end the situation isn't any closer to being resolved, none of the characters have shown any interesting development or growth, no one important has been introduced (without being burned to a crisp afterward). I was never a fan of Daenerys but I am getting increasingly annoyed with her. There are other young and naive characters but all of them are being guided or manipulated by someone else. For some incomprehensible reason though everyone wants to serve or be ruled by the young queen who seems to make nothing but mistakes. I expected she would have to confront the consequences of her actions in "A Dance with Dragons" except things somehow keep working out in her favor and just as she might have to actually suffer for her choices, she hops on a dragon and flies off into the sunset (or is the dothraki sea to the east?)

All the people in the north (Reek, Asha, Davos, John) were awesome. That was the part of the book that really felt like ASoIaF to me- there was intrigue, i couldn't guess what would happen next, who would live and die. Too bad it also ended with a cliffhanger but at least I felt like things were happening and the situation was changing.

Interesting mysteries:

Who is Lemore? I've heard Ashara Dayne and Leanna Stark. The second seemed really absurd (Ned himself saw her die, brought the body back to Winterfell, she had a pretty distinctively Stark look) so I looked up the chapter when Lemore is introduced to see how she is described and found there is surprisingly little in the way of physical description. She has dark brown hair apparently but otherwise nothing specific.

Is John dead? The whole betrayal scene had a lot more of a "cheap cliffhanger" than "an important character dying" feel to it. The whole Wall storyline was building up to the point when his brothers betray him and then we get two short paragraphs in which he is surprisingly stabbed by a couple of unimportant people and passes out. Kind of like Brienne getting hanged and Daenerys confronting the khalasar, I find the cliffhanger more annoying than suspenseful. This style of suspense works with TV shows where you have to wait a week for the next episode but not for books where you have to wait five-six years for the next part only to have the cliffhanger completely ignored (as happened with Brienne).

Penny. Is she supposed to be a future romantic interest for Tyrion? I really can't figure out why she got so much "screen time."

Quentyn Martell got a few chapters and then got himself turned into a briquette. Not like he had anything better to do but what will the repercussions of his death be back on Westeros? Will Doran Martell now throw his lot with Aegon and ignore Daenerys altogether?

Why is Sansa not in this book? She finally gets an interesting and unique situation to observe and suddenly disappears.


Looking at my comments it might seem I didn't like the book very much but I don't think that's the case. I enjoyed it quite a bit it just doesn't pack the emotional punch of the first and third books and it doesn't flow into the story nearly as seamlessly as the second one. Most importantly some parts of it feel like filler- something the first three books never did.

P.S. As far as annoying phrases go, I couldn't stand "I am only a young girl and know little of..." by the end. I know it was a lot less common than "break my fast" and "words are wind" but I find it more annoying. It was a witty way to make a point the first time she said it (in the second book?) but now she's just running around telling everyone she's incompetent.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:59 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
For the first three books Tyrion was awesome and I always wanted to see what he would do next. This book though would've been improved if his chapters were significantly cut down. Everything after meeting Penny felt completely pointless. I am almost convinced that in previous books Martin would've handled it by showing Mormont capture him and then having him appear in Mereen with a mercenary company, letting the readers figure out that he was one of the jousting dwarves and maybe having a single monologue in which he wittily summarizes his adventure when being introduced to Daenerys or something of the sort.

Penny. Is she supposed to be a future romantic interest for Tyrion? I really can't figure out why she got so much "screen time."


Spoiler:
Yeah, I was a little disappointed by the Tyrion storyline. Martin took the least interesting route with him, I think--he could stayed with Aegon, and that would have been interesting. He could have gone to Dany, and that would have been interesting. Hell, if he and Penny had been attacked by the lions in the ring, that would have been more interesting. At the start it seemed he was going to spend a lot of time dwelling on "wherever whores go" or dealing with the whole killing his father and being betrayed by his family thing, but instead he just sort of accepted it and forgot about it. And then spends a lot of time floundering around before becoming a circus performer. I have a suspicion that Penny has the pale male and is not going to survive (Tyrion's last chapter mentions her being feverish), but that may just be me being hopeful. It would be much too cutesy for Tyrion to find a nice dwarf girl to settle down with.


maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
All the people in the north (Reek, Asha, Davos, John) were awesome. That was the part of the book that really felt like ASoIaF to me- there was intrigue, i couldn't guess what would happen next, who would live and die. Too bad it also ended with a cliffhanger but at least I felt like things were happening and the situation was changing.

Is John dead? The whole betrayal scene had a lot more of a "cheap cliffhanger" than "an important character dying" feel to it. The whole Wall storyline was building up to the point when his brothers betray him and then we get two short paragraphs in which he is surprisingly stabbed by a couple of unimportant people and passes out. Kind of like Brienne getting hanged and Daenerys confronting the khalasar, I find the cliffhanger more annoying than suspenseful. This style of suspense works with TV shows where you have to wait a week for the next episode but not for books where you have to wait five-six years for the next part only to have the cliffhanger completely ignored (as happened with Brienne).


Spoiler:
I think the Reek storyline was probably the best of the book, despite having a lot of really cringeworthy moments to it. I liked Jon's story too, but I didn't love the cliffhanger. It never gave me the Death of Ned or Red Wedding feel to it. It wasn't a convincing enough "death" for me to feel invested in it.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:59 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
For the first three books Tyrion was awesome and I always wanted to see what he would do next. This book though would've been improved if his chapters were significantly cut down. Everything after meeting Penny felt completely pointless. I am almost convinced that in previous books Martin would've handled it by showing Mormont capture him and then having him appear in Mereen with a mercenary company, letting the readers figure out that he was one of the jousting dwarves and maybe having a single monologue in which he wittily summarizes his adventure when being introduced to Daenerys or something of the sort.

Penny. Is she supposed to be a future romantic interest for Tyrion? I really can't figure out why she got so much "screen time."


Spoiler:
Yeah, I was a little disappointed by the Tyrion storyline. Martin took the least interesting route with him, I think--he could stayed with Aegon, and that would have been interesting. He could have gone to Dany, and that would have been interesting. Hell, if he and Penny had been attacked by the lions in the ring, that would have been more interesting. At the start it seemed he was going to spend a lot of time dwelling on "wherever whores go" or dealing with the whole killing his father and being betrayed by his family thing, but instead he just sort of accepted it and forgot about it. And then spends a lot of time floundering around before becoming a circus performer. I have a suspicion that Penny has the pale male and is not going to survive (Tyrion's last chapter mentions her being feverish), but that may just be me being hopeful. It would be much too cutesy for Tyrion to find a nice dwarf girl to settle down with.


maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
All the people in the north (Reek, Asha, Davos, John) were awesome. That was the part of the book that really felt like ASoIaF to me- there was intrigue, i couldn't guess what would happen next, who would live and die. Too bad it also ended with a cliffhanger but at least I felt like things were happening and the situation was changing.

Is John dead? The whole betrayal scene had a lot more of a "cheap cliffhanger" than "an important character dying" feel to it. The whole Wall storyline was building up to the point when his brothers betray him and then we get two short paragraphs in which he is surprisingly stabbed by a couple of unimportant people and passes out. Kind of like Brienne getting hanged and Daenerys confronting the khalasar, I find the cliffhanger more annoying than suspenseful. This style of suspense works with TV shows where you have to wait a week for the next episode but not for books where you have to wait five-six years for the next part only to have the cliffhanger completely ignored (as happened with Brienne).


Spoiler:
I think the Reek storyline was probably the best of the book, despite having a lot of really cringeworthy moments to it. I liked Jon's story too, but I didn't love the cliffhanger. It never gave me the Death of Ned or Red Wedding feel to it. It wasn't a convincing enough "death" for me to feel invested in it.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Yakk » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:18 am UTC

Spoiler:
GRRM is trying to show us the world at this point, as much as advance the plot.

My "figured that out" moment was when Bear Island was mentioned and its culture described in a side conversation.

So the "road stories" of this book do a central goal -- make parts of the world more alive.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby hrabanus » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:34 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:
Spoiler:
GRRM is trying to show us the world at this point, as much as advance the plot.

My "figured that out" moment was when Bear Island was mentioned and its culture described in a side conversation.

So the "road stories" of this book do a central goal -- make parts of the world more alive.


Spoiler:
I must admit that I didn't figure that out yet, so my own reading experience was a pretty plot-driven one - I've just kept reading and reading, because I waited for something to happen. Unfortunately it never actually did happen.

E.g. I thought this is finally it, now things will start to happen, when Daenerys flew away, but then this, too, just wasn't it - although now I've accidentally come to appreciate his twist there, very nice touch letting Daenerys get stranded.

To me he seems to be toying a lot with us readers - there's cliffhangers all over the place, only to lead nowhere really. So he's making us expect big things to happen all the time, only to then go against our expectations, again and again. Guess that could be interpreted as a somewhat literary quality.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Ortus » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:46 pm UTC

Spoiling for things that happen past the half-way mark of the 3rd book.


Spoiler:
So I'm at page 702 in the third book, and... what the fuck, George R. R. Martin? What the fuck? I liked the 'jons, and I liked Robb :( If Arya doesn't end up finding her wolf and ripping all the peoples throats out, I will be most displeased by this turn of events. Also, the Other that rescues Sam? He better be a badass. He better be the most badass.


hrabanus wrote:
Yakk wrote:
Spoiler:
GRRM is trying to show us the world at this point, as much as advance the plot.

My "figured that out" moment was when Bear Island was mentioned and its culture described in a side conversation.

So the "road stories" of this book do a central goal -- make parts of the world more alive.


Spoiler:
I must admit that I didn't figure that out yet, so my own reading experience was a pretty plot-driven one - I've just kept reading and reading, because I waited for something to happen. Unfortunately it never actually did happen.

E.g. I thought this is finally it, now things will start to happen, when Daenerys flew away, but then this, too, just wasn't it - although now I've accidentally come to appreciate his twist there, very nice touch letting Daenerys get stranded.

To me he seems to be toying a lot with us readers - there's cliffhangers all over the place, only to lead nowhere really. So he's making us expect big things to happen all the time, only to then go against our expectations, again and again. Guess that could be interpreted as a somewhat literary quality.


Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure this is either going to be the best series ever, or one of the most well constructed and mind-fuckingly-aggravating-for-readers fantasy world of all time by the time the series concludes.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:06 am UTC

So, bit of history I'm forgetting:
Spoiler:
In the TV series, a bard is depicted having to choose between getting his tongue cut off and his hands cut off. Someone mentioned to me today that that was a deviation from the book, but I cannot recall how. What did the bard do in the book that he didn't get to do in the tv series?
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby natraj » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:56 am UTC

Spoilers for up through book 4.

Spoiler:
In the books, there was also a bard in that same situation who did have to choose between his tongue and his hands, but in the book that particular singer was just some random dude who wasn't important at all. In the show, this punishment happened to the bard Marillion, who had traveled with Catelyn to the Eyrie when she was bringing Tyrion there, and stays at the Eyrie and becomes Lysa's favorite singer and later gets framed for her murder. I wonder if they'll introduce a new character for that? Because it was kind of important that he was around for Petyr to blame Lysa's death on.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:44 pm UTC

Ah, right, thanks natraj.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Midnight » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:07 pm UTC

ok, just finished it.

WHAAAAAATTTT


ok but seriously, I wanted more Victarion chapters. There were only two, and I thought Victarion was a fucking beast in Feast for Crows as well. The various suitor-conflicts with Daenrys are... honestly similar to where they were in Storm of Swords, but I want Victarion to win it.


Also, scale of 1 to 10, HOW important do we thing Rh'llor is gonna be through all this? cause that dude has been doing some mad work over the course of the series.
uhhhh fuck.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Ortus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:34 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:

Also, scale of 1 to 10, HOW important do we thing Rh'llor is gonna be through all this? cause that dude has been doing some mad work over the course of the series.


I'm finishing the third book today, so my grasp on the story is a tad weak...


Spoiler:
If Bran lives (if he dies in book 4 or 5... fuck me, and fuck George R.R. Martin) and does what I think he should be doing, I'd put money that he'll end up at odds with Rh'llor and end up Bran the Godslayer.
Or something.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby hrabanus » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:22 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:Also, scale of 1 to 10, HOW important do we thing Rh'llor is gonna be through all this?


Myself I hope it will be at least an 8.
Spoiler:
I really want the big slave uprising.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Grave » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:22 am UTC

Ortus wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure this is either going to be the best series ever, or one of the most well constructed and mind-fuckingly-aggravating-for-readers fantasy world of all time by the time the series concludes.


I think that "or" is pretty much guaranteed to be an "and" at this point. If anyone ever reads this series and doesn't mentally curse out GRRM at least a dozen times, they're clearly not reading the same books as I am.

Yakk wrote:
Spoiler:
Oh my god, Ned is alive?


Spoiler:
I apparently missed something, so....
Wait what?
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby hrabanus » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:44 am UTC

Grave wrote:
Yakk wrote:
Spoiler:
Oh my god, Ned is alive?


Spoiler:
I apparently missed something, so....
Wait what?


Spoiler:
Wasn't this just the part about Bran's first tree ride where Ned seems to hear Bran calling?

I actually wonder whether GRRM is playing around with the aeternitias / sempiternitas idea here (eternity as everything at once as opposed to eternity as an endless progression). GRRM does research after all, if I remember correctly.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:46 am UTC

Grave wrote:
Yakk wrote:
Spoiler:
Oh my god, Ned is alive?


Spoiler:
I apparently missed something, so....
Wait what?

Spoiler:
False alarm from the part of the book where Eddard was up and breathing. I thought it would be mildly amusing to post, as an incorrect spoiler.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Ulc » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:53 pm UTC

So, I finally finished the book

Spoiler:
I had hoped for more advancement in the Dany subplot I must admit, it's nice that she apparently grows up in the last chapter and realise that she has personal power, and that she doesn't have to be dependant on other peoples good opinion of her. I just wish that we hadn't wasted so much of the book being a spoiled brat that I just wanted to shake and yell "get a grip" at.

I wonder if Jon is really dead - I'm sort of doubtful, while GRRM does kill of characters that have acted stupid (like Jon certainly did!), it's always been on screen, and very clear when it happened. I also doubt that the message from the Bolton bastard is entirely truthful, there's just too many things that doesn't fit - such as him not having the fake Arya when he claims to have beaten Stannies. I feel for poor Mance in his cells though, even Theon did not deserve the treatment he got - and Mance is a much better person.

And what the hell happened with Jaime? He had just grown so much as a character, and is totally abandoned. Like Jon, I really doubt that he is dead, he's to major a character to die offscreen.

I must admit that I had also expected more of the Tyrion chapters. They just didn't eel as interesting as they should.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Nat » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:31 pm UTC

Finished the book, it was seriously lousy.
Spoiler:
The whole Aegon thing just felt like bad fanfiction, and so did Daario (even though he built up to that one). the Jon, Stannis/Asha and Tyrion chapters never seem to get anywhere, and this was the first book in the series without a single scene that made me want to cry. The Arya and Bran chapters were cool, but there were only three (short) Bran chapters, so it felt more like a preview or an introduction.

Edit: Also, the whole quentin storyline was completely pointless.
Last edited by Nat on Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:58 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:17 pm UTC

Nat wrote:Finished the book, it was seriously lousy.
Spoiler:
Edit: Also, the whole Lewin storyline was completely pointless.

Spoiler:
Lewin storyline? What Lewin storyline?
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Nat » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:59 pm UTC

I meant quentin, fixed.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:21 pm UTC

Oh, ok. Fair enough.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:06 pm UTC

Nat wrote:I meant quentin, fixed.

Spoiler:
I think his story was supposed to establish how difficult and dangerous it is to master dragons- probably in order to make it more impressive when Daenerys finally does, but he was just so uninteresting that I never believed he had a chance at succeeding and didn't really care when he died.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Midnight » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:43 am UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Nat wrote:I meant quentin, fixed.

Spoiler:
I think his story was supposed to establish how difficult and dangerous it is to master dragons- probably in order to make it more impressive when Daenerys finally does, but he was just so uninteresting that I never believed he had a chance at succeeding and didn't really care when he died.

Spoiler:
yeah, if he like, ACTUALLY became a Dany-husband (I figured the dragon has three heads would eventually be interpreted to mean "I'm marrying you, you, and you" but I guess that's pretty Wheel of Time so probably not. But yeah, Martell did nothing. His friends did nothing. If his death causes Dorne to rise against Dany, though...


Midnight, however, will still be rooting for Victarion to get the girl, though. It'd be amusing, and he's cool as fuck.
uhhhh fuck.
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