Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

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Bearboy
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Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Bearboy » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:19 pm UTC

My School had a girl ditch class, go buy eggs to come back and start throwing eggs at windows, a deputy principle happened to be nearby and confronts her, she eggs him, he grabs her around the neck to walk her to the office for the punishment to occour, girls mum calls news, school called police because it is policy to.

Here is the first news story to appear. They happened to interview the worst students possible for it.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/video.aspx?uuid=5deb095b-db21-4e7a-aab6-23f0fca59a24

Here are podcasts of a local talkback radio about the incident, the first one has more of the girls interview.

http://media.mytalk.com.au/2ue/audio/280711pmpodcast.mp3
http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/respect-for-authority-gone-today/20110728-1i0vv.html
http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/school-teachers-no-longer-in-control/20110729-1i2yd.html


Also the girl is in year 7, first year of high school here, out of the 110 days of school this year she has spent approximately 40 days suspended from school, and got another 20 for this. The police gave her a 24 restraining order for going near school grounds which she broke to be interviewed in front of the school.

This has created a shitstorm in my school, basically half and half supporting the girl over the teacher, you could say the divide is slightly junior vs senior(As in year 7,8,9 vs yr 10,11,12) or shitheads vs well behaved. Another news channel did a story in a completely different tone but hasn't uploaded it yet.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby The Reaper » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:30 pm UTC

Assault with an egg. What's the problem?

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Ulc » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:31 pm UTC

Excuse me, isn't high school voluntary in the US?

Why the fuck not just kick her sorry ass out and tell her to enjoy a life on minimums wage? Seriously, if people gets suspended 40 days in the first year, they are not suited for high school and for everyones sake they should just be kicked out.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Bearboy » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:32 pm UTC

The teacher is getting investigated, and it's bringing up the old argument of children not repecting elders.

Also a news company being utter arsehats in telling the story.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Bearboy » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:34 pm UTC

Its Australia, should have stated that straight away. And the laws here were recently changed, school leaver age increased from 15-17 with my year being the first... Yay for me dealing with the tosspots for another 2 years.

And thats part of the argument, we can't kick her out yet and apparently the teacher is in the wrongfor grabbing her to drag her to the office for the correct punishment. But people like her will end up on minimum wages anyway, look at the mum in the first video.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Tirian » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:10 pm UTC

Bearboy wrote:And thats part of the argument, we can't kick her out yet and apparently the teacher is in the wrongfor grabbing her to drag her to the office for the correct punishment.


Yes. Unless Australian school administrators are specifically trained in how to grab adolescents and drag them around without injury to either party, that's a really bad judgment call.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:19 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:Excuse me, isn't high school voluntary in the US?

Why the fuck not just kick her sorry ass out and tell her to enjoy a life on minimums wage? Seriously, if people gets suspended 40 days in the first year, they are not suited for high school and for everyones sake they should just be kicked out.

As tempted as I'd be to do this, and although the person could damn well deserve this, it doesn't actually help anybody to just kick her out permanently. Then you end up with a totally nonfunctioning member of society, whereas if she stays in school there's a possibility she could be of some use.

So, is the shitstorm over the fact that the deputy principle grabbed the student? Because somebody who assaults you with an egg probably isn't going to come to the office because you told her to.
Last edited by sourmìlk on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby emceng » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:19 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:Excuse me, isn't high school voluntary in the US?

Why the fuck not just kick her sorry ass out and tell her to enjoy a life on minimums wage? Seriously, if people gets suspended 40 days in the first year, they are not suited for high school and for everyones sake they should just be kicked out.



As far as I know high school is mandatory until at least age 16. You can drop out legally then. Someone in grade 7 would be around age 13.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby yurell » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:20 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:As tempted as I'd be to do this, and although the person could damn well deserve this, it doesn't actually help anybody to just kick her out permanently. Then you end up with a totally nonfunctioning member of society, whereas if she stays in school there's a possibility she could be of some use.


They also can't because she's too young.

Edit: Ninja'd
Last edited by yurell on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:26 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby curtis95112 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:21 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
Bearboy wrote:And thats part of the argument, we can't kick her out yet and apparently the teacher is in the wrongfor grabbing her to drag her to the office for the correct punishment.


Yes. Unless Australian school administrators are specifically trained in how to grab adolescents and drag them around without injury to either party, that's a really bad judgment call.


I advocate this being taught.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:23 pm UTC

yurell wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:As tempted as I'd be to do this, and although the person could damn well deserve this, it doesn't actually help anybody to just kick her out permanently. Then you end up with a totally nonfunctioning member of society, whereas if she stays in school there's a possibility she could be of some use.


They also can't because she's too young.

Ah, okay. Wait, so did this happen in the US or Australia?
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby yurell » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:24 pm UTC

New South Wales in Australia.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Xeio » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:24 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:Excuse me, isn't high school voluntary in the US?

Why the fuck not just kick her sorry ass out and tell her to enjoy a life on minimums wage? Seriously, if people gets suspended 40 days in the first year, they are not suited for high school and for everyones sake they should just be kicked out.
Based on the domain involved (.au) I'd guess this is australia. [/ninja'd]

As for the US though, it's required up to a certain age (which is beyond age 7 anyway I believe). Also, it's fairly difficult to actually expel someone, since generally that involves paying for them to be sent to another school in the possibly-not-anywhere-close area.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Hawknc » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:31 pm UTC

The teacher is in a position of authority. They can - and should - do better than roughing up a student. The kid has a serious problem with authority, too, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. This all seems like a beat-up of a minor story by conservative radio shock jocks.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:34 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:The teacher is in a position of authority. They can - and should - do better than roughing up a student. The kid has a serious problem with authority, too, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. This all seems like a beat-up of a minor story by conservative radio shock jocks.


So, as a principal, how do you respond to somebody throwing eggs at you?
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Tiberius » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:40 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Hawknc wrote:The teacher is in a position of authority. They can - and should - do better than roughing up a student. The kid has a serious problem with authority, too, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. This all seems like a beat-up of a minor story by conservative radio shock jocks.


So, as a principal, how do you respond to somebody throwing eggs at you?

Call the cops.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Kulantan » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:41 pm UTC

Well since nobody is at any risk and the student had committed assault the logical thing to do would be to call the police.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby curtis95112 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:43 pm UTC

Kulantan wrote:Well since nobody is at any risk and the student had committed assault the logical thing to do would be to call the police.


Yes, but do you really want to charge them with a criminal offense? I don't know how the Australian legal system works but I'd rather use that as a last resort. Am I being too idealistic?
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Hawknc » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:45 pm UTC

If it's not serious enough to call the cops, why are they resorting to physical force?

Edit: I should probably point out it's less likely that the police are going to arrest or shoot someone here, so calling the police to mediate is a pretty reasonable course of action. (Well, in NSW anyway. Here in Victoria I'm not so sure about the not shooting thing.)

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Kulantan » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:49 pm UTC

Calling the police doesn't have to end in arrest. Formal cautions are an option or even just a very serious chat. The thing is that it had moved out of the ability of any teacher to control the situation without force and a crime had been committed. The police are the legal and safest option for everyone involved.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby curtis95112 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:53 pm UTC

Kulantan wrote:Calling the police doesn't have to end in arrest. Formal cautions are an option or even just a very serious chat. The thing is that it had moved out of the ability of any teacher to control the situation without force and a crime had been committed. The police are the legal and safest option for everyone involved.

They're available? Thanks, I don't know their legal system very well.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby emceng » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:19 pm UTC

But the question is then what are the cops going to do? Physically restrain her too? That's how we get '8 year old tazed by cops' stories. I don't think it's unreasonable that force can be used to restrain an unruly student. The issue is finding the line between disobedient and violently unruly.

Frankly I think part of the issue schools have today is that the reaction to any altercation is that the police must be called. It shows the students that the teachers and even administrators have no power, instead they have to call in outside enforcers to get things done.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby curtis95112 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:20 pm UTC

emceng wrote:But the question is then what are the cops going to do? Physically restrain her too? That's how we get '8 year old tazed by cops' stories. I don't think it's unreasonable that force can be used to restrain an unruly student. The issue is finding the line between disobedient and violently unruly.

Frankly I think part of the issue schools have today is that the reaction to any altercation is that the police must be called. It shows the students that the teachers and even administrators have no power, instead they have to call in outside enforcers to get things done.


The point is that the police should know how to safely restrain a resisting student. The teachers probably don't.

EDIT: What the apostrophe?
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Роберт wrote:Sure, but at least they hit the intended target that time.

Well, if you shoot enough people, you're bound to get the right one eventually.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby mmmcannibalism » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:37 pm UTC

When we have extremely clear verification of who was involved and what happened, is an immediate arrest/restraint an important consideration over not fucking up?
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Qaanol » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:45 pm UTC

If the girl is 13, and she’s supposed to be in school, and she’s throwing eggs at the school, and she doesn’t go to the office when she’s told to, then I have no problem with a school administrator dragging her to the office. By the arm. The problem in my view is she was grabbed around the neck. The administrator should be punished for that somehow.

The girl should also be punished for throwing eggs at people and the school. How about a nice few hours of having to clean up the eggs she threw? Plus maybe another few hours of helping the janitorial staff to clean up other parts of the school? Let the punishment fit the crime already.

And for the administrator who grabbed the girl around the neck…probably the same thing. Clean up part of the school for a few hours.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby podbaydoor » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:48 pm UTC

curtis95112 wrote:
emceng wrote:But the question is then what are the cops going to do? Physically restrain her too? That's how we get '8 year old tazed by cops' stories. I don't think it's unreasonable that force can be used to restrain an unruly student. The issue is finding the line between disobedient and violently unruly.

Frankly I think part of the issue schools have today is that the reaction to any altercation is that the police must be called. It shows the students that the teachers and even administrators have no power, instead they have to call in outside enforcers to get things done.


The point is that the police should know how to safely restrain a resisting student. The teachers probably don't.

Anecdotally, my mother and all the teachers she worked with were trained in how to safely restrain a student. They were all special ed teachers, though, who worked with either juvenile delinquents or with mentally disabled students who could be violent with themselves or others.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Internetmeme » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

I have absolutely no problem with them taking the girl to the office. I do, however, have a problem with holding her by the neck. Her arm would have been acceptable.

Also, this:
emceng wrote:But the question is then what are the cops going to do? Physically restrain her too? That's how we get '8 year old tazed by cops' stories. I don't think it's unreasonable that force can be used to restrain an unruly student. The issue is finding the line between disobedient and violently unruly.

Frankly I think part of the issue schools have today is that the reaction to any altercation is that the police must be called. It shows the students that the teachers and even administrators have no power, instead they have to call in outside enforcers to get things done.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby juststrange » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Anecdotally, my mother and all the teachers she worked with were trained in how to safely restrain a student. They were all special ed teachers, though, who worked with either juvenile delinquents or with mentally disabled students who could be violent with themselves or others.


Seconded. My mother works with low-functioning middle/high school age autistic children at a public school, who hit, bite, scratch, etc at times. Employees there are definitely instructed one things like the "basket hold" and the 1 or 2 other 'approved' physical restraint techniques in order to protect themselves/other students. On a related note, one of them made a move on the school officer who evidently dropped the kid in a completely different technique, fast and somewhat more forcefully - no injury other than a bit of surprise of course (I dont want it to sound like he beat up a special needs kid). The staff was a bit surprised but he basically explained that as an officer he is not governed by the same policies the teaching staff are. The reality is with a taser and firearm on his belt he has a special interest on not grappling with any student longer than he needs to.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:45 pm UTC

Qaanol wrote:Clean up part of the school for a few hours.

Yes, because a student unruly enough to throw eggs at a principal is liable to clean part of a school. Even as a consequence.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Mega D » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:46 pm UTC

Oh, she may have problems, but I'm sure she'd never stoop so low as to skip detention. What is she, a psychopath?

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby meatyochre » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

Does the doctrine of in loco parentis apply in Australia like it does in America? I think the reaction was completely justified. Pretend you're a parent... if your kid was throwing eggs at you, what would YOU do? He wasn't going to goddamn strangle the girl (neck-wringing is SO aboriginal*). He probably just reached for the nearest part of her he could reach. If I had done this to my mom, she's have slapped the pee-diddle out of me, and I'd have deserved it.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby M.C. » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:13 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:If it's not serious enough to call the cops, why are they resorting to physical force?

Edit: I should probably point out it's less likely that the police are going to arrest or shoot someone here, so calling the police to mediate is a pretty reasonable course of action. (Well, in NSW anyway. Here in Victoria I'm not so sure about the not shooting thing.)


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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Lucrece » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:20 am UTC

In the case of the US, schools receive financial benefits for having as many students attend as possible. Expelling a student is rather hard, and as a result bullies often are undeterred in their torture of others unless someone actually gets out of the stupid pity phase and has that person criminally charged and removed from the school.

Your right to attend a public institution ends when you assault other people. Some here are saying it's just throwing an egg. Well, you just stand there and let me pelt you in the face with an egg to see how trivial you deem it then.

Not to mention the damage to your clothes, which that rotten little shit most likely won't be liable for.

She shouldn't be stoned, but she can sure as hell be exiled to her shitty parents so it's THEM who have to put up with her violent behavior instead of carting her off on everybody else who doesn't have an obligation to be intimidated and abused by her. When she shows maintained change in her behavior she can be allowed back in school.

People have a right to be free from bullies of any kind in a public institution. Particularly educational institutions. That includes educators.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Duban » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:57 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:Excuse me, isn't high school voluntary in the US?

Why the fuck not just kick her sorry ass out and tell her to enjoy a life on minimums wage? Seriously, if people gets suspended 40 days in the first year, they are not suited for high school and for everyones sake they should just be kicked out.

There are a few things I should mention

1) School is a requirement in the US until the age of 16.
2) In the US high school starts after grade 8, not grade 7. Therefore, this happened in a country outside of the US.

Also, how is it wrong to restrain a kid that's pelting you with eggs for appropriate discipline?
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Ulc » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

Duban wrote:
Ulc wrote:Excuse me, isn't high school voluntary in the US?

Why the fuck not just kick her sorry ass out and tell her to enjoy a life on minimums wage? Seriously, if people gets suspended 40 days in the first year, they are not suited for high school and for everyones sake they should just be kicked out.

There are a few things I should mention

1) School is a requirement in the US until the age of 16.
2) In the US high school starts at grade 8, not grade 7. Therefore, this happened in a country outside of the US.

Also, how is it wrong to restrain a kid that's pelting you with eggs for appropriate discipline?


I thought the term "high school" refereed to schooling after the mandatory age of schooling. Thus my mistake.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Qaanol » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:42 pm UTC

Duban wrote:2) In the US high school starts at grade 8

High school is grades 9-12 (ages ≈14-18) in my part of the US.
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Tirian » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:51 pm UTC

The grade cutoffs vary from one district to the next. I imagine there was a time a few generations back when it was uniformly four years long and not obligatory for anyone who was considering a career in manual labor, but of course nowadays we have robots doing most of those jobs and a full high school diploma is the new eighth grade education.

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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Dark567 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:39 pm UTC

Duban wrote:1) School is a requirement in the US until the age of 16.
This varies by state. In 11 states, it's mandatory to 18.
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The Reaper
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby The Reaper » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:25 pm UTC

I always figured school was 12 years, unless you graduated early. From that, it varies on your birthday, the general acceptance guidelines at the pre-k level, and whoever was doing the paperwork.

17-18, sometimes to 19, sometimes to 16. but mostly around the 17-18 range...

In the US.

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Gopher of Pern
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Re: Student eggs teacher, teacher grabs student. Shitstorm

Postby Gopher of Pern » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:09 am UTC

In Australia we have primary school, which is K-6 (so, Kindergarten, and years 1 - 6), which spans the ages of 5-12. Then we have high school, which is years 7-12, generally ages 13-18. Of course, not everyone is the same age, but its a general guideline. Seniors in high school are yrs 11 and 12. Year 10 is the School Certificate, usually the base requirement for a job. Year 12 is the higher school certificate, used for getting into universities.

Grabbing by the neck was probably a bit too far, but I can understand the frustration of the school staff. There is no easy fix for these problems.
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