xkcd

by **cjdrum** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:09 pm UTC

Designer Mafia!
It's just Mafia, but not quite as you know it...

Rules, from Weeks:

Spoiler:

Players:
1. Ibarra (So it's like Wizardry?)
2. John Citizen (Did someone mention complexity?)
~~3. existential_elevator~~
~~4. webby~~
~~5. Aro~~
~~6. Elvish Pillager (If everyone else leaves now that I've joined, I'd be willing to withdraw my signup )~~
~~7. BoomFrog (This is going to be a train wreak, but a fun train wreak )~~
~~8. Dr Ug~~

by **cjdrum** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:09 pm UTC

How it Works

cjdrum wrote:Players will be given a set number of Power Points to spend on powers.
Each power costs a certain amount of Power Points, and modifiers such as Even-Night or One-Shot can be added to the power to increase or decrease this number.
Any amount of powers can be purchased - which means roles are fully customisable and designable!

One power per player may be used per night.
Each power can be used as many or as few times as a player likes throughout the game, unless otherwise specified.

Active Powers
Informative:

Spoiler:

Protective:

Spoiler:

Killing:

Spoiler:

Manipulative:

Spoiler:

Passive Abilities
Informative:

Spoiler:

Protective:

Spoiler:

Killing:

Spoiler:

Manipulative:

Spoiler:

MODIFIERS!

Spoiler:

Each player will receive an alignment, then will have a brief period of time to decide on powers. Mafiosi may also collaborate powers during this time.
Each player will receive 75 Power Points to spend on powers. Adding modifiers to powers can either increase or decrease this price.

About Modifiers:
As many modifiers as you like can be added to one power - except for obvious contradictions. When you send your list of powers, I will be vetoing them, and you may have to change a few details. Don't take this personally: I'm just trying to make the game less unbalanced.

ALSO: You may not buy multiple instances of one power. That could end up being insane.

by **cjdrum** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:41 pm UTC

Randomizing roles now.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:52 pm UTC

Are we allowed to discuss choices in-thread during the choosing period, like in Wizardry, or do we have to choose individually?

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:42 am UTC

And... you gonna send us those roles, or just keep randomizing them? :wink:

by **cjdrum** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:03 am UTC

No time at the moment. Parents bugging me about assignments and whatnot. Will update when able.

You can talk here if you want.

by **BoomFrog** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:47 am UTC

I can see one-shots being very popular, they are super cheap and I doubt the game is going to last longer then 2 or at most 3 days. (see lucid dreamers)

If I take 1 shot paranoid gun owner does it last one night or only react once?

Can I take one-shot resurrecter or is one-shot epic resurrecter actually better and cheaper?

Is kill immune once per night or once ever?
More later, gtg.

by **existential_elevator** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:00 am UTC

egosearching

by **BoomFrog** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:11 pm UTC

Can unblockable powers be redirected?

Isn't commuter passive?

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:37 pm UTC

I am so ready to start asking questions and proposing strategies! But I haven't received my role PM, so I don't yet know whether to propose them completely honestly or subtly manipulate them!

by **cjdrum** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:54 pm UTC

Roles have been sent to any and all people who aren't Town. If you didn't receive a role, you're Town. Sorry for this

Answers to questions coming in a bit.

by **cjdrum** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:58 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:If I take 1 shot paranoid gun owner does it last one night or only react once?

It only reacts once.

BoomFrog wrote:Can I take one-shot resurrecter or is one-shot epic resurrecter actually better and cheaper?

You cannot take one-shot Resurrector as it is, in nature, one shot. One-Shot Epic Resurrector is fine.

BoomFrog wrote:Is kill immune once per night or once ever?

Once ever.

BoomFrog wrote:Can unblockable powers be redirected?

No.

BoomFrog wrote:Isn't commuter passive?

Err... No. You have to choose, on a certain night, that that is what you are using.

by **cjdrum** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:11 pm UTC

You now have about 72 hours to discuss and choose powers. If you don't send choices by this time, I will completely randomise them.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:31 pm UTC

cjdrum wrote:Roles have been sent to any and all people who aren't Town. If you didn't receive a role, you're Town. Sorry for this

Oh, okay.

(Hm... "any and all people who aren't town"... am I to assume that you won't give us any more information about what the anti-town/independent forces are?)

My first thought is that Passive Reflector is, like, THE ultimate power. Scum kill you? They also die! Doctor protects you? The doctor is also protected! Cop cops you? You also cop the cop! Well, unless...

To whom is the result of a reflected cop ability sent?

So I'm thinking that town players should strongly consider taking Passive Reflector, or at least an X-shot or [odd/even]-night Passive Reflector. It compares favorably with a limited Extremely Paranoid Gun Owner in most situations - the latter saves you from scum kills instead of just counter-killing, but it also kills town who target you with benign abilities. Not to be too cheesy, but Passive Reflector lets us have our cake and eat it too. (And no that's not a lie, damn you Portal mafia!)

Lightning Rod + Passive Reflector is a pretty obvious idea (Attract the scum kill, then return it! And if the scum don't kill, then you also cop everyone with a cop - although the usefulness of that depends on exactly what happens with the reflected abilities. Oh, and the main ability too.) On the other hand, it (1) might make investigative abilities useless, and (2) it might be too ridiculously awesome / too game-breaking and the mod would forbid it.

cjdrum, would you accept a player's request for Lightning Rod + Passive Reflector? And am I correct in assuming that it would copy every other player's actions to themself? And for that matter, what happens if two players take Lightning Rod?

If an investigative ability is redirected, is the investigator told who it was redirected to, or are they just given a result?

You know what else looks totally awesome? Public Creepy Stalker. It's passive, so it can't be redirected or PGO'd, and public, so nobody has to risk trusting your individual claims. If a lot of townies take really cheap, limited-use Public Creepy Stalker abilities, then it'll be really hard for the scum to have plausible deniability while killing anybody. Of course, we wouldn't necessarily end up with the scum being stalked (I asked the mod before the game, and the player you're stalking is determined randomly) but (1) it could create a lot of wine for the scum wondering whether they'll be caught, and (2) it'd give the town a lot of tangible information to begin D2 with. Heck - we could even all take public Alignment Cop and play it like a dethy, although the usefulness of that depends on the interactions between redirection and investigations (since, unless I missed something obvious, there is no godfather ability - well, since we don't know the anti-town forces, there might be a straight-up godfather role, but I'd assume that there wouldn't be too many innate abilities given that there are so many buyable ones. And since the mod has confirmed that there are no power town by saying we all received the same total lack of a role PM...)

Are there any "power roles", or just different alignments? And... heck, am I right in assuming that there's a scum team with a night kill?

Of course, my second thought (assume that everything above was my first thought) is that it might not be a good idea to make broad town strategy plans, because the scum can counter them in various ways - e.g. if we plan to all take Passive Reflector, the scum can make sure to take Category Disabler: Manipulative and totally break the plan. And basic game theory tells us that even with the simple assumption that Passive Reflector is somewhat better than PGO, we should *sometimes* take PGO instead because the counters are different (and on the flip side, that the scum should usually take the *counters* to Passive Reflector but should occasionally take the counters to PGO instead - or, that's the most optimal mixed strategy, anyway.)

by **cjdrum** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:08 am UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:(Hm... "any and all people who aren't town"... am I to assume that you won't give us any more information about what the anti-town/independent forces are?)

I can tell you that there is at least one town and at least two Mafiosi.

Elvish Pillager wrote:To whom is the result of a reflected cop ability sent?

The player who used the Cop ability.

Evlish Pillager wrote:cjdrum, would you accept a player's request for Lightning Rod + Passive Reflector?

Yes.

Elvish Pillager wrote:And am I correct in assuming that it would copy every other player's actions to themself?

Yes, it would.

Elvish Pillager wrote:And for that matter, what happens if two players take Lightning Rod?

Each seperate action would go to a random player who has Lightning Rod for that night.

Elvish Pillager wrote:If an investigative ability is redirected, is the investigator told who it was redirected to, or are they just given a result?

They will be told who it was redirected to, and given a result!

Elvish Pillager wrote:Are there any "power roles", or just different alignments? And... heck, am I right in assuming that there's a scum team with a night kill?

Just different alignments. All players, regardless of alignment, receive 75 power points.
There is also a scum team, and they do have a factional night kill.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:48 am UTC

In that case, it sounds like alignment cops are the order of the day!

Let's see. A three-shot public alignment cop costs 24p. You'd still have to worry about being killed by PGO abilities, but you *could* take something like Odd-Night Kill Immunity and still fit within the total cost. But if someone (i.e. an anti-town player, if we make a plan out of this) decides to take Lightning Rod + Extremely Paranoid Gun Owner, then that'd also make the actions fail... so

Ooh. We could all take Unblockable Three-Shot Public Alignment Cop for 36p, or just two-shot for 24p or one-shot for a lousy 18p. Bahahahaha

And then play it like a dethy, except that all the cops are sane and public, so we win instantly. Well... I mean, other than the fact that it's way too good to be true. Either there's a way for the scum to stop it, or the mod will just ban it. But... the only way I can see to stop it is Category Disabler: Informative, and given how cheap it is to spam unblockable public alignment cops, it would be nice to force the scum to spend that many points. It's like how town *should* have been able to play in GGL (*raaaaage*

) - since we (assuming cjdrum isn't fucking with us town actually is a majority) have way more points total, any forced even trade between town and scum - or even trade at a slight disadvantage - will leave us in the better position.

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:15 am UTC

Looks at EP's slightly misleading strategies.

As you pointed out any mass plan will be thwarted by category disabler. Some public cops will he good, mass will be bad. Some docs to protect the confirmed town would be a good compliment. One-shot unblockable epic resurrect is awesome and is the only thing I might say everyone should take. Assuming...

are alignment and powers revealed on death?

BTW, what I said before was slightly misleading. Scum could make the game slow so don't take too many one-shots, threeshots should be fine but consider full powers. With resurrects things could go long so roleblocking scum might be better then killing.

I'll assume any kills d1 are scum one or twoshot kills after d1 are ok, but make sure they are well informed and unblockable.

Maybe to insure good distribution have everyone roll a die, 1,2 take an informative focus, 3,4 take a protective focus, 5 take a disabler focus, 6 roll again. Anyone can splash some kills or resources or passive powers. I just thought of this now so it probably needs refining. Thoughts?

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:27 am UTC

Okay Category disabler is 90 so they will have to take even or odd days disabler since I assume oneshot would only block one cop. I could get behind everyone taking one or two shot public unblockable alignment cop.

Wait...

Does unblockable beat category disabler?

at EP slightly withdrawn.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:51 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:As you pointed out any mass plan will be thwarted by category disabler. Some public cops will he good, mass will be bad.

Not sure about that. I mean, mass public cops could literally cost us as little as 9p apiece. And with (probably) 5-6 of us, that's... around 50 points. Which is literally less than the cost of a *single* one-shot unblockable epic resurrect*, and even an odd-day or even-day category disabler still costs a whopping 45 points. And yes, the cop abilities can be one-shots for a reason - we only need to cop each player once. (Of course, if we don't do a mass strategy, then each player individually could choose to take a many-use cop ability to make up for the fact that there are fewer of them.)

The weakness of a mass cop strategy is that if we choose our exact cop powers (which, don't get me wrong, are a small fraction of our total powers - you could easily fit cool resurrection AND a reflector AND all the copping the plan would demand), then the scum know exactly what they need to counter. But the strength is that *we* have superior knowledge. If we agree that we should have lots of public cops both D1 and D2, then some people are going to have to pay 24p, but it means that the scum will have to take odd-night AND even-night category blocker... so each townie pays 24p or less, and in the worst-case scenario where there's a scumteam of three, they have to pay an average of 30p each for their category blocking. With 8p I'd assume a scumteam of two and possibly an independent, which would mean they'd be spending 45 each for category blocking. That's a pretty major price, and one that they wouldn't necessarily have to pay if we didn't have an organized strategy. Maybe this means I shouldn't be playing Mafia, but I don't like merely hoping for something when I can make it a guarantee.

Oh, another advantage of making it an organized strategy is that we could designate a few people to take the ability as a day action, so that they can test to see if the category's being disabled, so that the other people would be able to use their other actions. Hence, it could give us *more* action-diversity to pick an organized strategy than to stick to individual choices. With a base cost of 9, people could even take it as an epic day action and use another action N1, but that could be up to the individual and we wouldn't have to ask whether the action was an epic day action or just regular day action if we didn't want to.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:55 am UTC

...aaaaand, ninja'd by BoomFrog pointing out the same thing. I was kinda assuming that there was no such thing as one-shot category disabler, but either way, it would be pretty weak.

If unblockable beats category disabler then not only (1) did we just break the game but also (2) category disabler is completely pointless, since I'd expect any action that anyone is serious about to be unblockable, so that it can't fall for, like, Lightning Rod. Still, it would be good to hear the answer from the mod.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:11 am UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:...the cost of a *single* one-shot unblockable epic resurrect*,...

Hmm, looks like I accidentally deleted the footnote from my post before posting. It was supposed to go on,

*which should probably be an odd-night or even-night one-shot unblockable epic resurrect, to halve the cost.

This is like Wizardry, where even the lowliest apprentice can be a cop-doctor-roleblocker, except that instead, everyone can be a publicdaycop-PGO-resurrector...

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:11 am UTC

Does category disabler disable passives such as creepy stalker?

If yes does disabler manipulative disable other catagory disablers?

Does roleblock stop passive abilities such as creepy stalker?

Alright I'm down with that plan. Lets say everyone should at minimum take one-shot alignment cop, then once the game starts we can decide when we want people to use them.

by **Ibarra** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:31 am UTC

/confirming

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:40 am UTC

Oh, and lest it not be given the spotlight it deserves, the idea of everyone taking epic resurrection is great. Lynch town D1? Epic resurrect gets us a 100% confirmed townie! Scum kills a townie? Epic resurrect not only thwarts that plan, but makes it completely backfire because the townie is now 100% confirmed! And so forth.

I'm really starting to think that there is a possible master plan that can completely guarantee a win. (Of course, any plan we actually come up with would have to be one that is technically guaranteed to work, but is subtle enough that cjdrum doesn't realize and ban it.

)

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:38 am UTC

Well, if each individual element is not a banable power setup it should be fine. One thing that could totally break the game is if every townie took Horcrux. We would likely end up with a Horcrux pair or triangle or other shape of completely unkillable players if it was really distributed randomly. As long as there is one town in there we can't lose if there's no scum in there we win. It's a good gamble but it's not mafia... :p Also CJdrum would probably alter the "random" targets to prevent unbreakable chains.

Btw, Horcrux Even-days, or Odd-days is a decent choice, it's an epic-day action unbeatable doctor with the downside that you don't get to pick who it is, but 2/3rds of the time it will be a town player. And if it's scum you can reveal which days he is lynchable. It's statistically a better buy then doctor especially if Horcrux trumps unblockable. Although I'd defiantly take a resurrection if you take horcrux so that you can revive your ward, and maybe take one-shot epic bodyguard to protect them on the off day if you've confirmed they are town.

Does Horcrux protect against unblockable kills?

Lets put out some sample builds EP since I think we are putting a lot more brainpower into this then the average town. Yes, we'll be helping scum plan by giving examples of what to counter, but I think we will help town more.

by **John Citizen** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:04 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Well, if each individual element is not a banable power setup it should be fine. One thing that could totally break the game is if every townie took Horcrux. We would likely end up with a Horcrux pair or triangle or other shape of completely unkillable players if it was really distributed randomly. As long as there is one town in there we can't lose if there's no scum in there we win. It's a good gamble but it's not mafia... :p Also CJdrum would probably alter the "random" targets to prevent unbreakable chains.

I strongly suspect that for balance reasons, it won't work this way; that is to say, a scum equality or majority will count as a scum win, as opposed to all townies dead.

Is this correct?

Also, confirm.

by **webby** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:06 am UTC

Elvish Pillager and Boomfrog are keen!

I think most of the obvious things have been said already, but two things that are worth being reminded of:
1. You can only use one power per day + night. Public cops are good to have, but remember that it means you can only cop, nothing else that cycle.

Mod: Does this include the passive abilities such as player enabler, lynch immunity etc.?

2. It would be a good idea to get powers from different categories in case someone disables a category. This goes for each individual, not just overall as a town. I think one-shot powers are generally the best. The game is likely to go about 3 nights (assuming an average of one nightkill per night, day 2 will have 6 players, day 3 will have 4 and the game will be over on day 4), and most players won't be alive that long.

I think one player we decide on now should get a one-shot public hacker. That doesn't mean that others couldn't get one as well, especially if the first one fails, because I suspect scum are going disable informative actions, but might not be able to do it for the whole game given that it costs 90p.

Mod: Do we still get the results of a public informative action if the player who uses it is killed?

Boomfrog's idea about horcruxes is interesting, I'd thought of it as more of a scum than a town action.

I'll try to post more later, and in particular take a closer look at Boomfrog and Elvish Pillager's strategies, but I do want to get to my other games.

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:49 am UTC

The other problem with the all cop D1 plan is we can't allow town to have any PGO or Passive Reflectors. We leave ourselves open to getting overpowered by kills. The other problem is it is very very difficult to deal with scum having a PGO. Kill immunity is expensive and the only other solution is resurrection (or lucky Horcrux protection.

Warder:
20 pt - Odd-night Horcrux
7.5 pt - Even-Night Three-Shot Doctor
15 pt - Two-shot Odd-night Double Alignment Cop (40/4/2*2.25*1.2)
25 pt - Two-shot Odd-night Epic Resurrection
7.5 pt - Three-shot Odd-night Public Creepy Stalker

Jailer:
15 pt - Three-shot Even-Night Epic Bodyguard
13.125 - Three-Shot Odd-Night Unblockable Jailer
28.33 pt - Two-shot Extremely PGO
11.25 pt - One-Shot Odd-Night Epic-Day-Use Alignment Cop

In making the below I realized with the discount of even/odd night you can get six shots of powers for the regular cost of one full power. So it's a great deal as long as your willing to have two different powers. I'm also leaning towards having everyone take Odd-night Horcux. That should slow scum killing down enough to let us get the info we need to weed them out. If we do this strategy then roleblockers would be very necessary as there would be little death.

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:50 am UTC

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:57 am UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:The weakness of a mass cop strategy is that if we choose our exact cop powers (which, don't get me wrong, are a small fraction of our total powers - you could easily fit cool resurrection AND a reflector AND all the copping the plan would demand), then the scum know exactly what they need to counter. But the strength is that *we* have superior knowledge. If we agree that we should have lots of public cops both D1 and D2, then some people are going to have to pay 24p, but it means that the scum will have to take odd-night AND even-night category blocker... so each townie pays 24p or less, and in the worst-case scenario where there's a scumteam of three, they have to pay an average of 30p each for their category blocking. With 8p I'd assume a scumteam of two and possibly an independent, which would mean they'd be spending 45 each for category blocking. That's a pretty major price, and one that they wouldn't necessarily have to pay if we didn't have an organized strategy.

Okay the more I think about it the more this plan is a disaster. If we really had everyone cop someone on N1 then we would all be dead by D2. Category disabler is not the counter scum would use, they would simply overpower us with kills. Assuming we have a declared cop order and three scum with PGO and we mislynch and they each took one-shot Odd-night unblockable kill that'd be eight kills and they only need six on D1/N1 to win. The point is we need a lot of doctors and other protection to be thrown around N1. Also consider making your resurrect a day use so that the person you saved can vote and talk and use their own powers that night. Also counters day kills.

Btw, I think town should never take PGO. Lightning rod PGO is not a good town plan, Passive reflector is better in all cases. But the cheapest protection is for us to protect each other, even if we protect scum accidentally, town shouldn't be using night kills anyway.

Would you veto anything in my above two builds? If so what?

If a Horcrux and his protectee are killed in the same night what happens?

Does a day use Doctor extend into the night as well?

I'm seriously considering that all of town should take Horcrux odd or even nights only, each person chooses secretly. It will keep the game slower and less crazy and give us time to gain info. Once scum are outed we can figure out how and when to lynch them. With a Hacker we can still gain info from a lynch even if there is no death. Thoughts? Did I say this already...?

by **existential_elevator** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:59 am UTC

...no, no, no, see: we don't know if Horcruxes protect town or scum. So, basically, taking that is going to be a bit of a gamble.

I'm going to be listening in on the rolechosing, but I think I'm going to pick in accordance with my play style, since I know that I suck as a cop (and other such things). It's likely I'll take passive abilities, or go with my original superplan of trying to make a public hacker work.

I'd personally suggest if someone takes cop, they take it with the mason group ability. Confirm town, then mason them. That'd be really helpful.

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:52 am UTC

You should take at least take one active ability, at minimum take doctor. Threeshot even day doc plus Threeshot odd day epic bodyguard is less then 25 points.

Horcrux might hit scum but its more likely to hit town. It's a good gamble for its price (assuming it does indeed trump unblockable and isn't stopped by category disabler). The reason I recommend halfdays protection is so if it affects scum we can lynch on the off day.

by **existential_elevator** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:34 pm UTC

Yeah, I'm not keen on having active abilities. I'm also not sure how useful it is having a three shot even day power. I guess it's not so bad, I mean, how likely is it that the game will go on beyond 6 days or whatever?

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:50 pm UTC

The point is that it cost 1/4 the price and it's better then a one-shot. Make it a two-shot odd-day power to save even more. The reason I say you should definatly get an active power is they are so cheap.

At minimum get one-shot odd day alignment cop for 5 measily points. At least you can verify someone is town, that's worth 5 points right? Then you could get even day one-shot mason chat and hook up with that trusted person for a mear 7.5 points more.

But yes, if we have a lot of protection and ressurection going on (which I think is the best plan) we could have the game go four or more days easily.

by **existential_elevator** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:55 pm UTC

Your logic, sir, is genius and you just found me a way round something. I owe you one.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:06 pm UTC

Woah, lots happened over(my)night.

I can't comment on the horcrux plan until we actually know whether they block unblockable kills. Unblockable says cannot be roleblocked or protected against and Horcrux says not able to be killed in any way, so I think we've got a pretty clear-cut case of an unstoppable force crashing into an immovable object.

webby wrote:I think one player we decide on now should get a one-shot public hacker. That doesn't mean that others couldn't get one as well, especially if the first one fails, because I suspect scum are going disable informative actions, but might not be able to do it for the whole game given that it costs 90p.

This is a good idea. Maybe have one person take 1-shot odd-night public hacker (12p) and another take 1-shot even-night public hacker (also 12p)?

-

BoomFrog, seriously, WTF? You try to shoot down the cop plan with worry about scum PGOs, then you say everyone should get a public day action, specifically ones that aren't even unblockable (and hence are vulnerable to Lightning Rod as well as plain old PGO). You also repeatedly suggest taking doctor abilities - you've mentioned doctoring in practically every post - when you "seem" to be acutely aware of the possibility of unblockable kills. Again... wtf?

And you know what saves the cop plan from the kind of killing you're talking about? That's right, one-shot unblockable epic resurrects. They don't even have to be day-resurrects, they could be any kind of resurrection that's possible to use D1 or N1 - whatever combination of odd-night and X-shot you like. Dunno if we'd get their alignment info if we rezzed them N1, but if we decide that PGOs are scummy, then they're pretty much confirmed town for having tripped a PGO on scum while successfully copping them as scum (and I'm pretty sure if investigations are disabled, then we can't trip PGOs anyway). Might as well ask, though.

If a person is daykilled, then when do we get their role info? (For that matter, if a person is lynched, or killed at night, when do we get their role info? just to make sure we're on the same page.)

If Category Disabler is on, then the actions aren't used in the first place and hence can't be PGO'd or tracked or anything, right?

And that was your first idea. I have trouble imagining how it could have conveniently slipped your mind if you were town. I mean, I can't really imagine how it could have slipped your mind if you're scum, either, but at least I can sort of imagine how you might have thought that was a plausible way to try to shoot down the cop plan, and either not thought it through completely or thought the townies wouldn't think it through completely.

Big ol' FoS: BoomFrog

And a minor FoS at existential_elevator for saying BoomFrog's logic is genius. <_<

existential_elevator wrote:I'd personally suggest if someone takes cop, they take it with the mason group ability. Confirm town, then mason them. That'd be really helpful.

Well, theoretically, except that at a measly *1.2, all investigative abilities should be public. I'd be highly suspicious of anyone claiming a private investigation. And given that, Mason Recruiter probably isn't worth the minimum of 7.5 points you'd be spending on it (and that's with it not even being unblockable).

I mean, sorry to rain on your parade, but I really don't want a repeat of GGL.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:10 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:
webby wrote:I think one player we decide on now should get a one-shot public hacker. That doesn't mean that others couldn't get one as well, especially if the first one fails, because I suspect scum are going disable informative actions, but might not be able to do it for the whole game given that it costs 90p.

This is a good idea. Maybe have one person take 1-shot odd-night public hacker (12p) and another take 1-shot even-night public hacker (also 12p)?

Wait, this is only a good idea if we're not saturated with alignment cops. If we are, then it's a completely useless idea (either we'll already know exactly who the scum are and be in a battle of pure powers, or investigations will already be disabled and so the hackers will be useless too, unless... well, unless Category Disabler doesn't work on passive actions, but we're still waiting for the mod to answer that.)

by **existential_elevator** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:12 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:And a minor FoS at existential_elevator for saying BoomFrog's logic is genius. <_<

existential_elevator wrote:I'd personally suggest if someone takes cop, they take it with the mason group ability. Confirm town, then mason them. That'd be really helpful.

Well, theoretically, except that at a measly *1.2, all investigative abilities should be public. I'd be highly suspicious of anyone claiming a private investigation. And given that, Mason Recruiter probably isn't worth the minimum of 7.5 points you'd be spending on it (and that's with it not even being unblockable).

I mean, sorry to rain on your parade, but I really don't want a repeat of GGL.

Nah, see, something BF said made me realise a possible combination of modifiers I hadn't even thought of before, which, if mod allows, will let me keep a pretty plush power almost as if it was unmodified.

Also: I am not pro all investigative abilities being public, especially if you're using them to mason people. It's obviously better to keep things public, but at the same time, it paints a target on confirmed town for scum to kill in many various ways.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:26 pm UTC

I hadn't thought of that. After considering it for a while, I still don't like the wine of having possible private investigators (har har) but I can't come up with any logical reason that it isn't a valid tactic.

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:12 pm UTC

Bit of an over reaction there EP.

I'm just pointing out flaws in the plan, maybe they are real flaws or maybe it's me having a logic fail. But you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that I've got this entire system totally figured out already and any mistake I make is on purpose to mislead town. I think someone is projecting...

But maybe not, maybe we're both being sensitive. Lets discuss the merits of both plans since I'm still not convinced which one is better. You may convince me you were right still and my objections will be withdrawn.

Elvish Pillager wrote:BoomFrog, seriously, WTF? You try to shoot down the cop plan with worry about scum PGOs, then you say everyone should get a public day action, specifically ones that aren't even unblockable (and hence are vulnerable to Lightning Rod as well as plain old PGO). You also repeatedly suggest taking doctor abilities - you've mentioned doctoring in practically every post - when you "seem" to be acutely aware of the possibility of unblockable kills. Again... wtf?

Doctor's are good because they can protect against PGO and are much cheaper then Kill immunity. If we are throwing around abilities on everyone then we should worry very much about scum PGOs. Although I'll agree everywhere I said Doctor you should replace it with Epic Bodyguard if you can afford it. Even if you bodyguard against an unblockable kill you should still kill the attacker. Also the scum teams natural kill is not unblockable. So more then 50% of the killing I expect to happen is blockable, and we need to prevent some of the killing because if we prevent none then everyone dies in one night and resurrect isn't helping.

Can Unblockable be applied to PGO or Epic Bodyguard to make the kill unblockable?

Kill immune still stops an unblockable kill right?

And you know what saves the cop plan from the kind of killing you're talking about? That's right, one-shot unblockable epic resurrects. They don't even have to be day-resurrects, they could be any kind of resurrection that's possible to use D1 or N1 - whatever combination of odd-night and X-shot you like.

Well that's assuming we have all epic day cops with night resurrections which is not what you originally proposed but ok, lets look at that.

20.25 for Alignment Cop. (Oneshot, Odd, Unblockable, Epic Day, Public)

Assuming six town and everyone in town takes that then we've spent 120 points, and it's countered by an Odd day Category disabler for 45 points. Seems like a loss for town now.

Okay, lets say half the people take Double public day cop and the other half take ressurects...
30.37 points for the cops (don't need epic day now only day), but we only need an average of three. That is at least break even with scum assuming 2 town points are worth 1 scum point. I still think this works better as a potential strategy that a few people choose to secretly take rather then a mass strategy where it is public knowledge who is taking what.

Dunno if we'd get their alignment info if we rezzed them N1, but if we decide that PGOs are scummy, then they're pretty much confirmed town for having tripped a PGO on scum while successfully copping them as scum

Not if we have a clear plan to ressurect them in place, no they would not be confirmed anything. And they could false claim about who was the PGO.

And that was your first idea. I have trouble imagining how it could have conveniently slipped your mind if you were town. I mean, I can't really imagine how it could have slipped your mind if you're scum, either, but at least I can sort of imagine how you might have thought that was a plausible way to try to shoot down the cop plan, and either not thought it through completely or thought the townies wouldn't think it through completely.

What was my idea first? Also, with you me and webby here I'd assume everything is going to get thought through a lot.

I mean, sorry to rain on your parade, but I really don't want a repeat of GGL.

For the noobs (me at least) what happened in GGL?

Who is online