xkcd

by **Elvish Pillager** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:07 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Bit of an over reaction there EP.

Well, you're the one who described the plan as "a disaster", so I'm not sure I'm the first one to use overblown language <_<

BoomFrog wrote:But you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that I've got this entire system totally figured out already and any mistake I make is on purpose to mislead town. I think someone is projecting...

Okay, point taken, but is it really that hard to make the leap from "Scum could have PGOs to kill townies" to "Maybe we shouldn't be totally excited about using active actions as much as possible"?

BoomFrog wrote:Doctor's are good because they can protect against PGO

Even if every player uses a night action, the chance of a doctor hitting someone who targeted a PGO cannot be better than the doctor's chance of hitting a PGO themself. And doctors also can't protect against PGOs against day actions, unless you take a day doctor, which is almost completely useless (well, unless the protection carries over until night... upon which we're still waiting on the mod)

BoomFrog wrote:Also the scum teams natural kill is not unblockable.

A fair point, but things like Passive Reflector are much better ways of dealing with the scum factional kill than doctor abilities are. Doctoring uses up your action and only blocks kills, not affecting unblockable ones, while Passive Reflector returns kills to the scum. One scum killed > one townie saved.

BoomFrog wrote:So more then 50% of the killing I expect to happen is blockable, and we need to prevent some of the killing because if we prevent none then everyone dies in one night and resurrect isn't helping.

The only serious "Everyone dies in one night" scenario is with a lot of PGO kills. What's the best way to avoid being nightkilled by PGOs? Don't target people at night! My cop master plan does call for some of the townies to be copping others at night, but unless we get astronomically unlucky, but by that point, we would have a pretty good idea of the risk of targeting scum, since we'd have a lot of cop results already.

BoomFrog wrote:
And you know what saves the cop plan from the kind of killing you're talking about? That's right, one-shot unblockable epic resurrects. They don't even have to be day-resurrects, they could be any kind of resurrection that's possible to use D1 or N1 - whatever combination of odd-night and X-shot you like.
Well that's assuming we have all epic day cops with night resurrections which is not what you originally proposed but ok, lets look at that.

20.25 for Alignment Cop. (Oneshot, Odd, Unblockable, Epic Day, Public)

They could easily take Day for 13.5 instead of Epic Day, since if it turns out that the scum suppress investigations, then we don't need to *actually* use more than one (or more if we don't trust the first person who uses it, but anyway...), and if it turns out that it does work, then it's more than worth it. And like I said, not *everyone* would need their cop to be a day action at all.

To maximize our point usage, we'd probably have a couple people take two-shot night cops and everybody else take one-shot X-night daycops.

BoomFrog wrote:Assuming six town and everyone in town takes that then we've spent 120 points, and it's countered by an Odd day Category disabler for 45 points. Seems like a loss for town now.

The math Does Not Work That way. If the town spent 20 points each, that's 27% of their points. If the scum spent 45 once, and there are two scum, then that's 30% of their points, and we're *already* ahead, even with your pessimistic assumptions about what town would pick. With my suggestions, we'd still be spending about 20 each on average, but the scum would have to spend 45 twice to suppress all of it, which would be an advantage even if there are three of them.

BoomFrog wrote:Okay, lets say half the people take Double public day cop and the other half take ressurects...
30.37 points for the cops (don't need epic day now only day), but we only need an average of three. That is at least break even with scum assuming 2 town points are worth 1 scum point. I still think this works better as a potential strategy that a few people choose to secretly take rather then a mass strategy where it is public knowledge who is taking what.

In case I wasn't clear, I don't think we should have an organized plan for the resurrects, I just think that each player should individually strongly consider taking resurrection. Resurrection is very powerful, but unlike the copping, it doesn't benefit from a rigid plan (at least, not any plan that I've come up with

).

BoomFrog wrote:
Dunno if we'd get their alignment info if we rezzed them N1, but if we decide that PGOs are scummy, then they're pretty much confirmed town for having tripped a PGO on scum while successfully copping them as scum
Not if we have a clear plan to ressurect them in place, no they would not be confirmed anything. And they could false claim about who was the PGO.

Unblockable public daycop, remember? Even if you hit an EPGO, your public daycop still goes through, and the public result will say who the action was used on. And the result will say that the PGO is scum, so we can just lynch according to the result. And, sure, we can worry about the fact that a scum player might have literally public-copped their teammate as scum in order to look towny and use up our resurrection... but that's a pretty big cost for a rather impractical gambit.

BoomFrog wrote:What was my idea first?

Epic resurrection being a totally awesome ability that everyone should take.

BoomFrog wrote:
I mean, sorry to rain on your parade, but I really don't want a repeat of GGL.
For the noobs (me at least) what happened in GGL?

Most of the townies wasted tons of points on impractical abilities and some of them missed important parts of the setup. We lost rather horribly.

by **BoomFrog** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:00 am UTC

Unblockable public daycop, remember? Even if you hit an EPGO, your public daycop still goes through, and the public result will say who the action was used on.

That is a very good point. I momentarily forgot it's unblockable and public.

Ok, yeah I think scum are going to be forced to take Catagory Disabler Informative just by the threat of this plan. The only question left is if we should designate three Double Day Cops, or just tell people to strongly consider taking double daycop and use it at their discretion.

I agree that all cops should be public, even night cops. A) Removes wine about trusting the cop B) We get results even if you die to PGO or if it's reflected it confirms yourself as town publicly. C) There will be a lot of public coppings probably so their is no fear about making someone a target. We're all power town anyway. D) Public Day cops remove any accidental doubling up and wasting results, we only need one result per person.

All that is well worth a x1.2 multiplier in cost. There is no good reason to take a private cop power.

Wait, Gee Willikers Gee Willikers Gee Willikers. We can all publicly cop ourselves! Then there is no risk of PGO! You still need to make it unblockable so you can't get roleblocked or lightning rodded.

Can we use public alignment cop on ourselves? Can people self doctor or self bodyguard (probably no, but just checking)?

If I have a three-shot passive reflector can I choose to not use up a shot when targeting myself with a power?

Everyone takes an epic day self copping for 20.25 points, and spends more if they want more shots to use later. Although this virtually guarantees that Informative will be disabled.

Speaking of disabling, a few people should secretly decide to take Category Kill Disabler.

Elvish Pillager wrote:The math Does Not Work That way.

I'm assuming 3 scum, 2 scum seems far too optimistic, and 4 would be too harsh. It's possible there are like, 2 scum and 2 independents or something like that, but I doubt it. The game is hectic enough.

I'll address wither your origonal idea (or my criticism of it) was scummy or not later, lets focus on getting a good power plan now before our 72 hours are up.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:30 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:I agree that all cops should be public, even night cops. A) Removes wine about trusting the cop B) We get results even if you die to PGO or if it's reflected it confirms yourself as town publicly. C) There will be a lot of public coppings probably so their is no fear about making someone a target. We're all power town anyway. D) Public Day cops remove any accidental doubling up and wasting results, we only need one result per person.

I know I was arguing against this a moment ago, but in the interest of full discussion, you're missing a point: When you privately cop someone as town, the advantage is that the scum don't *know* that there's exonerating information about your target, so they don't know who to kill in order to make sure they have possible lynch targets left.

BoomFrog wrote:Wait, Gee Willikers Gee Willikers Gee Willikers. We can all publicly cop ourselves! Then there is no risk of PGO! You still need to make it unblockable so you can't get roleblocked or lightning rodded.

I would assume that we can't target ourselves with any powers that mention a "target". However, with Passive Reflector, that's a great idea! We could designate a few people to be Passive Reflectors, and have other people take public daycops and just target the reflectors (we need more than one in case we pick scum and they decide to take PGO or something instead, but anyway).

I'm kinda disappointed the mod hasn't been on anytime today to answer all the rules questions. The "72 hours to plan" is starting to look like "1d3 rounds of rules questions" instead.

cjdrum, what happens if we submit choices just before the 72 hours are up, but you veto them?

by **Elvish Pillager** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:35 am UTC

Oh, and FWIW, when I run an 8-player game, I almost always make there be two scum, since three is instant MYLO (although, I've gotta admit that MYLO is pretty meaningless with all the powers). (And if anyone remembers Doctored, don't shoot me, I shouldn't have run that setup with only eight players in the first place.)

by **BoomFrog** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:30 am UTC

Oh, I thought there were 9 players. Hmm, maybe 2 scum and an indy? Could just be 2 scum though.

the advantage is that the scum don't *know* that there's exonerating information about your target,

I think the benefits outwiegh that though. If informative isn't disabled I expect there not to be any lynchable targets left. We'll see how quickly this dissolves into a power struggle instead of "real mafia" though.

by **webby** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:59 am UTC

Disabling the killing category as Boomfrog suggested is obviously a good idea, I was going to do it without saying I was, because I felt that if it wasn't discussed, it might encourage scum to take some more killing powers, thereby wasting points (at least until I died). In fact, I was thinking of taking some combination of category enabler + disabler, but I don't think you can one-shot category disable, so you'd have to do even/odd night or something.

As far as I can see, informative helps town, protective helps town more than scum, manipulative helps scum slightly more than town and killing helps scum.

I definitely want to know whether disabling the manipulative category disables other category disablers. In fact there are a huge amount of questions left to be answered... In the following I'm going to assume that it doesn't, and if it does we just disable manipulative, thus allowing us to take the informative public day cop etc.

I suspect that manipulative is not going to be disabled by either side. These are mostly powers that could help town or scum - here's an outline:

Roleblocker (25p) - cheap, might be worth taking a one-shot for cases where we've found out someone is scum, but haven't been able to kill them yet for whatever reason. Not particularly useful because most people will take unblockable things.

Jailkeeper + Alien + Prostitute - all worse than roleblocker as far as I can see.

Bus Driver (40p) - Fun to mess with players, I can imagine cases where it would be pro-town, but use with caution. I don't recommend it unless you have nothing better to take.

Vote Redirector (75p) - We need to watch out for this power, especially around LYLO. Not usually good for town, and expensive.

Mason Recruiter (60p) - May be useful for coordinating strategies etc. if you have someone you know you can trust. One-shot only required (Mod: I assume this would make it last for one night?)

Love Potion Maker/Matchmaker (40p/70p) - Have no idea how this will interact with other powers, but Love Potion Maker could be useful for a confirmed townie who is pretty sure who the scum is.

Resurrector/Epic Resurrector (100p/150p) - Expensive, but powerful as well. A couple players should take a one-shot of these, but it will take up most of your points allocation, so don't go overboard with this. There are probably things you can do with this many points that is worth as much as resurrecting someone. Suggestion: every townie rolls a die (or uses a random number generator) and takes one-shot epic resurrector if they get a 1 or 2, and doesn't otherwise.

Reflector/Epic Reflector (40p/60p) - Epic reflector in particular is useful, but I assume unblockable things, which most things will be, can't be reflected. However, the scum nightkill is not unblockable, so this is a useful town power to have.

Deflector/Epic Deflector (50p/75p) - Not particularly useful for reason above.

Commuter (65p) - Has same effect as a self-doctor (Mod: How does this interact with unblockable actions?). Powerful if beats unblockable, otherwise not so good.

Hologrammer (60p) - Scum power. I don't think trackers and watchers are going to be useful in this game anyway.

Lightning rod (15p) - Very cheap. Not sure how this interacts with unblockable. There are situations where this is useful for town, sometimes in combination with other powers. I'm not going to expand any further than that.

Nexus (85p) - not really a townie power.

Player Enabler/Disabler (50p/60p) - there are situations when it's useful, especially disabler, but more scum power than town power.

Category Enabler/Disabler (75p/90p) - Mod: Can we take one-shot one of these, or does if have to be even/odd night? Disabling and enabling killing actions is a plausible plan, but category disabler is so expensive it might be better just to have multiple people take some-shot or even/odd night category enabler. Townies roll dice for this one?

Beloved Princess (30p) - Scum power.

Lynch Immunity/Kill Immunity (75/80p) - Could be worth having if you have any space left. Depends how it interacts with unblockable, but remember the scum nightkill isn't unblockable.

Passive Reflector (50p) - Good, but I reckon most actions are going to be unblockable in this game, except for the scum nightkill.

Mod: Are the passive powers still performed at night, especially the one-shot ones? Do things like lynch immunity happen automatically, or does it take an action to activate it?

I'll do the other categories later... Use it as a base and add to it.

I think it would be a good idea that we decide approximately how many of certain important powers we use, and each townie rolls a die/uses a random number generator to decide whether to get it.

I still mean to go through Boomfrog and Elvish Pillager's posts eventually, to pick out what I think are good suggestions/to suggest whether I think they're genuinely trying to help or not.

Ninja'd: I agree that the advantages of public copping outweigh the disadvantages.

by **webby** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:05 am UTC

Ignore the question in the mason section, one-shot would surely mean you only do it once.

Also, I forgot to add that epic-public-day-use is a good way to make cheap powers a lot better, because it doesn't waste your night action.

Also, we only have 1.5 days left and only four of the eight players have properly posted, and the mod has many questions to answer. This concerns me. Ibarra, John Citizen, Aro, Dr Ug, where are you?

by **webby** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:08 am UTC

And one more point - public day use of an informative power would be good because if scum does have PGO, your death reveals that they do. (Interactions with unblockable yet to be mod-confirmed).

I strongly believe that townies should not take PGO, because there are more town actions flying around than there are scum ones.

by **webby** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:09 am UTC

webby wrote:And one more point - public day use of an informative power would be good because if scum does have PGO, your death reveals that they do. (Interactions with unblockable yet to be mod-confirmed).

I strongly believe that townies should not take PGO, because there are more town actions flying around than there are scum ones.

The logic there isn't particularly sound when I think about it, because there are also fewer scum that you need to actually kill. Will reconsider this point.

by **Ibarra** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:11 am UTC

Let me just say that I won't be following any of the suggestions posted, as I'm only interested in my survival until the game ends.
(You probably guessed what role I have by this statement.)
I'm getting Odd/Even Night Nexus + Odd/Even Night Commuter (85/2 + 65/2 = 150).

by **BoomFrog** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:57 am UTC

Why don't you go ahead and claim an explicit win condition there Iberra, to increase the chance that we don't just lynch you D1?

Love Potion Maker/Matchmaker (40p/70p) - Have no idea how this will interact with other powers, but Love Potion Maker could be useful for a confirmed townie who is pretty sure who the scum is.

I really don't follow, this seems like a scum only power to me.

Beloved Princess (30p) - Scum power.

I've been debating since I got my lack of a PM wither or not to bring this up, but yeah. This is why I expect the game to last longer then a few nights (assuming we protect ourselves well enough.)

Also, I think PGO is definitely scum only. Scum can coordinate a doctor protection to cover against a PGO, where-as town will need to get lucky for a doctor to protect someone who is targeting a PGO that night.

Assuming Killing is disabled then there won't be any unblockable kills, so doctors are back to being useful. You can protect publicly copped confirmed townies without fear of a PGO. Roleblocker is going to be very useful for it's price as well, but does carry the risk of getting shot.

by **cjdrum** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:11 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:are alignment and powers revealed on death?

Alignment and most recently used power (including all modifiers on it) are revealed at the start of the Day after a player's death.

Does unblockable beat category disabler?

No, Disablers and Enablers trump all.

Does category disabler disable passives such as creepy stalker?

Yes.

If yes does disabler manipulative disable other catagory disablers?

Yes.

Does roleblock stop passive abilities such as creepy stalker?

The only passive abilities that a roleblock stops are informative abilities.

Does Horcrux protect against unblockable kills?

Yes.

John Citizen wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:Well, if each individual element is not a banable power setup it should be fine. One thing that could totally break the game is if every townie took Horcrux. We would likely end up with a Horcrux pair or triangle or other shape of completely unkillable players if it was really distributed randomly. As long as there is one town in there we can't lose if there's no scum in there we win. It's a good gamble but it's not mafia... :p Also CJdrum would probably alter the "random" targets to prevent unbreakable chains.

I strongly suspect that for balance reasons, it won't work this way; that is to say, a scum equality or majority will count as a scum win, as opposed to all townies dead.

Is this correct?

Scum win when all other players are dead, or when absolutely nothing can prevent this.

1. You can only use one power per day + night. Public cops are good to have, but remember that it means you can only cop, nothing else that cycle.

Mod: Does this include the passive abilities such as player enabler, lynch immunity etc.?

No.

Mod: Do we still get the results of a public informative action if the player who uses it is killed?

No.

Warder:
20 pt - Odd-night Horcrux
7.5 pt - Even-Night Three-Shot Doctor
15 pt - Two-shot Odd-night Double Alignment Cop (40/4/2*2.25*1.2)
25 pt - Two-shot Odd-night Epic Resurrection
7.5 pt - Three-shot Odd-night Public Creepy Stalker

Jailer:
15 pt - Three-shot Even-Night Epic Bodyguard
13.125 - Three-Shot Odd-Night Unblockable Jailer
28.33 pt - Two-shot Extremely PGO
11.25 pt - One-Shot Odd-Night Epic-Day-Use Alignment Cop

[...]

Would you veto anything in my above two builds? If so what?

Even- or Odd-Night and Three-Shot are not allowed together, as there will likely be at most two even nights anyway.

If a Horcrux and his protectee are killed in the same night what happens?

Both players will die.

Does a day use Doctor extend into the night as well?

No, it does not.

If a person is daykilled, then when do we get their role info? (For that matter, if a person is lynched, or killed at night, when do we get their role info? just to make sure we're on the same page.)

At the start of the next day, for all deaths.

If Category Disabler is on, then the actions aren't used in the first place and hence can't be PGO'd or tracked or anything, right?

Correct.

Can Unblockable be applied to PGO or Epic Bodyguard to make the kill unblockable?

Yes.

Kill immune still stops an unblockable kill right?

Yes, it does.

Can we use public alignment cop on ourselves? Can people self doctor or self bodyguard (probably no, but just checking)?

No, no and no.

If I have a three-shot passive reflector can I choose to not use up a shot when targeting myself with a power?

You aren't allowed to target yourself with any powers except for Matchmaker... Which would be a waste of points anyway.

cjdrum, what happens if we submit choices just before the 72 hours are up, but you veto them?

I will allow you to revise your powers.

Mason Recruiter (60p) - May be useful for coordinating strategies etc. if you have someone you know you can trust. One-shot only required (Mod: I assume this would make it last for one night?)

No, it would mean that you can only recruit one person throughout the game.

Commuter (65p) - Has same effect as a self-doctor (Mod: How does this interact with unblockable actions?). Powerful if beats unblockable, otherwise not so good.

The idea of the Commuter is that they can commute out of Town, so unblockable actions will fail on someone who uses Commuter that night.

Category Enabler/Disabler (75p/90p) - Mod: Can we take one-shot one of these, or does if have to be even/odd night? Disabling and enabling killing actions is a plausible plan, but category disabler is so expensive it might be better just to have multiple people take some-shot or even/odd night category enabler. Townies roll dice for this one?

If it were to be One-Shot, you would have to specifiy which night to use it on. This would not count as using an action.

Mod: Are the passive powers still performed at night, especially the one-shot ones? Do things like lynch immunity happen automatically, or does it take an action to activate it?

Passive powers are always active. However, in the case of One-Shot Manipulative powers (other than Beloved Princess and Immunities), the power must be specified for use that phase.

by **cjdrum** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:12 am UTC

Also, by "always active", I mean that they will automatically trigger.

They aren't Active powers.

by **webby** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:26 am UTC

Boomfrog, a love potion is the equivalent of a vig kill if you're a confirmed townie. Matchmaker is useful if we somehow find out who both the scum are on the same day. If it's a 2 v 1 situation, a townie with love potion who's about to be lynched can use it on one of the other players to at least give a 1 in 2 chance of winning. If it's a 1 v 2 situation, matchmaker + some way to kill one of them gets a draw. 2 v 2 with two confirmed townies is a possible win in a similar way.

I'm sure there are more examples of that.

But that might have been made moot by the mod's answers, I reckon we category disable manipulative, I think it's worth not having informative disabled in exchange for not being able to disable killing. Do you agree?

by **webby** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:27 am UTC

Also, sorry to overload you with questions, but:

Mod: What's the win condition for town? Simply all anti-town threats eliminated, or does there have to be a surviving townie?

by **BoomFrog** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:12 am UTC

I assume we need a surviving townie. And unless killing is disabled then love potion is just a bad kill.

I think we should have two designated unblockable double daycops and have a designated one-shot manipulative disabler. If anyone fails to take the powers they promised then they will be outed as scum and lynched. With a 2man scum team I doubt they can afford that. If we find less then two scum then we have it narrowed down to the cops and manipulate blocker and Iberra to lynch. Everyone else should take protective or roleblocking powers. Sorry e_e, public hacker seems unnecessary now.

We're going to need a lot of protection to survive the possibly double length night though. Keep resurrection as a night ability seems like the way to go in case of beloved princess.

Unblockable One-shot Public Double Day-Cop is 60.75 points.

Iberra is obviously not going to cooperate, but if we're going to do this plan, to reduce wine we should designate the first players on the list to take the fixed roles. JC and e_e take UOSPDD-cop and Webby takes Manipulative Disabler. JC checks Aro and EP, e_e checks me and Dr. Ug.

Any flaw in the plan of making things so structured? JC, e_e and webby, are you willing to take these roles, and if not, why?

If a player uses a double public cop on two players and the 2nd one is a PGO, do the results of the first player get revealed or nothing is revealed?

For the record, all combos of Odd/even night and limited shots are vetoed, correct?

Can we que actions for the day start like wizardy?

by **John Citizen** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:47 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Unblockable One-shot Public Double Day-Cop is 60.75 points.

Iberra is obviously not going to cooperate, but if we're going to do this plan, to reduce wine we should designate the first players on the list to take the fixed roles. JC and e_e take UOSPDD-cop and Webby takes Manipulative Disabler. JC checks Aro and EP, e_e checks me and Dr. Ug.

Any flaw in the plan of making things so structured? JC, e_e and webby, are you willing to take these roles, and if not, why?

I see a few. Firstly, if the scum know who the category disabler is, they will simply kill them, thus negating the disabler. Secondly, to cop twice, the cop needs to be 2-shot, not 1-shot. This would increase the price to 81 points, ie. too expensive. Thirdly, there is much less opportunity for town to protect from kills if there are no manipulative abilities or killing disablers.

The only way for town to use disablers effectively is by not planning them in advance, or by getting a good deal of townies to buy them. The latter is expensive, and the former would be difficult to fit in a formal plan.

by **existential_elevator** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:55 am UTC

I submitted powers yesterday

by **BoomFrog** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:50 am UTC

at e_e.

Does a One-shot, double use power work twice per shot, or does it need to be a two-shot to work twice in one night.

@JC: Webby could afford to take Odd-day Kill immunity, and some town may feel inclined to protect him D1 or secretly also take Manipulator Disabler. But one designated Disabler means we have at least one.

by **webby** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:14 pm UTC

I'm prepared to do that, as long as I can be confident that other townies will take useful powers. I think we're pretty screwed if Boomfrog and Elvish Pillager are scum.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:43 pm UTC

cjdrum wrote:
If yes does disabler manipulative disable other catagory disablers?

Yes.

[...]

Category Enabler/Disabler (75p/90p) - Mod: Can we take one-shot one of these, or does if have to be even/odd night? Disabling and enabling killing actions is a plausible plan, but category disabler is so expensive it might be better just to have multiple people take some-shot or even/odd night category enabler. Townies roll dice for this one?

If it were to be One-Shot, you would have to specifiy which night to use it on. This would not count as using an action.

Holy crap, that changes everything. Think about it - if it costs only 11.25 for one player to shut off all manipulative actions, including category disablers, for a day, then it's practically just a choice "Do I want to shut off category disablers?" instead of a power that costs points. And if it's not optimal for us to make that choice, then it's presumably optimal for scum to make it. So, game theory-wise, all Manipulative actions will almost certainly be disabled, at least for the first day or two.

I'm gonna drop this post here and go reevaluate all my strategies. Oh, and figure out what to do with the claimed jester. :roll:

by **Elvish Pillager** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:01 pm UTC

First big thought upon re-reading the abilities: Why the f*** is Kill Immunity a Manipulative power?!

by **Elvish Pillager** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:40 pm UTC

If manipulative abilities are disabled,
Fact: Unblockable public day alignment cops never fail except to PGOs.
Fact: Voting and the lynch never fails except to Horcrux.
Fact: Unblockable kills never fail except to Horcrux.

Well, I did come up with a master plan, but we've already got two players saying "I'm unwilling/unable to go along with any master plan, lol" and we don't even know if either of those players are scum, so there could potentially be as few as four townies left who can actually participate.

For the record, the plan was for everyone to take cheap D1 horcruxes and cop abilities, so that hardly anyone could be killed D1, so that we'd get cop results even if there were PGOs. Then by D2, we should know who's scum, so the rest of our powers would be combat abilities for the firefight.

Trouble is, with only four people taking horcruxes, the chance of any person being protected - especially one of the horcrux-holders - is less than 1/2. Specifically, it's 37.0262391% for someone who actually goes along with the plan. And we can be pretty confident that scum, e_e, and Ibarra would not go along with the plan - the only thing we don't know is how much overlap there is between those people.

I think we're kinda stuck with going back to the basic plan of "Each person picks for zemself and we don't tell the scum what we're picking." I do think that a few people should take cheap Category Disabler: Manipulative abilities, and we should avoid manipulative abilities in general - if nothing else, to avoid giving scum the *choice* of whether to use/disable manipulative abilities or not. But like someone else said (can't be bothered to look up and check who), actually planning who would take them would just tell the scum who to kill if they wanted to enable manipulatives again.

by **cjdrum** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:28 am UTC

webby wrote:Mod: What's the win condition for town? Simply all anti-town threats eliminated, or does there have to be a surviving townie?

There must be a surviving Townie, yes.

BoomFrog wrote:If a player uses a double public cop on two players and the 2nd one is a PGO, do the results of the first player get revealed or nothing is revealed?

Nothing will be revealed.

For the record, all combos of Odd/even night and limited shots are vetoed, correct?

Correct. Other combinations may exist, and I will tell you when they occur.

Can we que actions for the day start like wizardy?

Que? Queue? Yes, you may queue actions for the start of the day, if they are Day-Use powers.

BoomFrog wrote:Does a One-shot, double use power work twice per shot, or does it need to be a two-shot to work twice in one night.

It would need to be a Two-Shot even if you would like to use it twice in the same night.

by **BoomFrog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:37 am UTC

If we do a fixed plan I think scum can probably unravel it, especially with one-shot day kills. I strongly encourage everyone to take odd/even Horcrux to reduce the chances that we can be overwhelmed by kills. Everyone should be taking either cop powers or doctor/epic bodyguard powers. Odd or Even day communter is also worthwhile. We can't depend on resurrections. Public Creepy Stalker is excellent, there is a decent chance it will help us unravel who is scum if they throw around day kills or a cop gets shot by a PGO. It also may reveal who is using cop powers which is actually a good thing as it confirms more town. No fear of revealing powertown this game.

Some notes to help people select powers:
Unblockable is mostly unnecessary since manipulative is very likely to be disabled. The ONLY thing it counteracts outside manipulative is EPGO. So only take unblockable on a power you a) want to take effect on scum and b) will work even if you are shot (which public day cop won't unless you live, of course a PGO is scum anyway).

If I use a cop action on a PGO and die do I still get the results (which I could reveal later if I'm resurrected)?

Unblockable is still useful on epic body guard to insure that you kill the attacker.

Ressurection is less useful because manipulative will likely be blocked, but it's still so damn powerful it might be worthwhile.

If someone uses a limited shot disabler power do they need to decide to use it before the start of the day, or can they activate it mid-day?

Will we be informed if one of our powers is disabled or do we need to try to use it before we're informed? If a power is disabled and limited shot and we tried to use it will we use up a shot? If our first attempt at an activated ability is disabled can we use a different active ability that day?

Assuming you cannot activate disabling midday then you can test for access to manipulative with a one-shot epic-day roleblock for 14 points. This is a waste for an individual but would be worthwhile if you shared results. If you do this, then claim who you roleblocked unless you are sure that person is scum.

Hmm... Gunsmith and blacksmith are so cheap...

Do mafia always have a gun? Even if they have a doctor power? Which powers give you a gun, which give you a knife?

Meh, probably doesn't work that well because epic bodyguards also probably have a gun.

by **BoomFrog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:42 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Do mafia always have a gun? Even if they have a doctor power? Which powers give you a gun, which give you a knife?

Potential list to make the mods life slightly easier.

Spoiler:

by **BoomFrog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:51 am UTC

Public Creepy Stalker is excellent

Private Creepy Stalker might be better since tracker is best at catching someone in a lie. Since we don't have a fixed plan mafia will probably stick to night kills. Public stalker is best for catching day killers.

by **cjdrum** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:52 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:If I use a cop action on a PGO and die do I still get the results (which I could reveal later if I'm resurrected)?

Yes, you will.

If someone uses a limited shot disabler power do they need to decide to use it before the start of the day, or can they activate it mid-day?

They can activate it mid-day, and it will only affect actions performed after it.

Will we be informed if one of our powers is disabled or do we need to try to use it before we're informed?

You will not be informed if your power is disabled. In case of Informative powers, you will simply be told that the investigation failed, and in case of Killing powers, you will not be told anything.

If a power is disabled and limited shot and we tried to use it will we use up a shot?

No, you will not.

If our first attempt at an activated ability is disabled can we use a different active ability that day?

No.

Do mafia always have a gun? Even if they have a doctor power?

Yes, due to their factional kill.

BoomFrog wrote:Which powers give you a gun, which give you a knife?

Spoiler:

by **BoomFrog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:55 am UTC

Does limited-shot Horecrux use one shot per day used or one shot per kill prevented?

by **cjdrum** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:59 am UTC

A single phase in which a Horcrux's target would die is counted as its use.

by **BoomFrog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:59 am UTC

So one shot for D1 and a second shot for N1 if the target died both phases, no matter how many kills or lynches targeted them? Correct?

If I take three-shot Horecrux can I choose to not use it for a phase?

I think everyone should definitely (and defiantly) at minimum take at least one-shot Horecrux. It's only 10 points, and if you accidentally protect scum we can lynch until it sticks. Be cautious about taking three-shot Horecrux though, that could suck if it hit scum.

by **BoomFrog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:01 am UTC

Am I informed when my Horcrux shots are used?

by **cjdrum** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:03 am UTC

Yes, yes, and... no, you aren't informed of a successful Horcrux protection - or any, for that matter.

by **existential_elevator** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:43 am UTC

Damn, I'm back to the drawing board given my loophole to ultimate public hackerdom just got shot down.

I still think Horcrux is kind of a bad idea, though. Better to have all the category disablers (bar informative).

by **BoomFrog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:49 am UTC

If we disable (or scum disables) manipulative then no one can disable killing (or protection). It's very likely that at any point in time, someone will be disabling manipulations, so we can't rely on disable killing working.

For a mere 13 points, two-shot Horcrux can protect someone random for two full phases. Charges are only used up if they are needed. It's like a passive super doctoring for only 6 points each time. The only downside is that you have a (presuming 2 scum and 1 indy) 3/7 chance that your ward is not town aligned. However it's still a great value even if it's only a 60% chance that it's useful. And you can withdraw your protection if it's discovered that they are scum. It is our only defense against unblockable kills that isn't manipulation category.

If Two-shot Horcrux cost 32 points and was guaranteed to hit town would you buy it? If that's a strong yes, then it's a good gamble to buy the available random version.

A final note to everyone: I've noticed in my number crunching that 2shot and 3shot cost the same per-shot. So to keep town's points being spent efficiently you should avoid one-shots unless you're sure you only need to use it once. I wouldn't bet on the game going longer then 2 or at most 3 days though, so 2-shots are probably the way to go.

by **BoomFrog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:28 am UTC

May I suggest the following:

Spoiler:

Or lastly, the fact that you want to be a public hacker so bad, really really makes me trust that you are town. So I'd be ok with you taking EPGO.

13.33 pts - Two-shot Horcrux
32 pts - Two-shot Public Hacker
28.33 pts - Two-shot EPGO
73.66 pts

I'd go with that last one. But if you do, you should probably claim it, or at least claim "I might have taken EPGO so don't doctor me."

by **webby** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:46 am UTC

Ok, I'm going to put my powers in now. I don't actually think it's a bad thing that we didn't specify what everyone gets - this way we minimise scum influence and they can't prepare specifically for our strategy.

Boomfrog, e_e claimed earlier that she'd already put her powers in?

I also do not think town PGO is a good idea at all when we're going to want to use investigative powers. I will be highly suspicious of whoever takes it.

by **existential_elevator** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:53 am UTC

webby wrote:Boomfrog, e_e claimed earlier that she'd already put her powers in?

Yup, and it also got rejected. But, like, the math was perfect!

I've resubmitted now, anywho. It's not as badass, and annoyingly there are like, 3 points left over. I couldn't find anything for 3 points :/

Also- someone else just signed up in the sigh-up thread. What's going to happen with that?

by **BoomFrog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:03 pm UTC

Really? You're suspicious of a public hacker? That's at least 24 points spent on a power that's going to help town even if e_e is scum. I think we can target the cops at better targets then that, so no harm done by being a PGO.

In fact anyone who takes Public Day Alignment Cop can also take EPGO without undue suspicion. If they prove it by copping someone day 1. That's a decent chunk of points spent helping town. If the scum take public cops and spend their actions clearing town, I'll be pretty happy.

by **Elvish Pillager** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:16 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Really? You're suspicious of a public hacker? That's at least 24 points spent on a power that's going to help town even if e_e is scum. I think we can target the cops at better targets then that, so no harm done by being a PGO.

...and which is completely unverifiable until the end of D1? And possibly longer?

cjdrum, when is a public hacker result revealed - before night, or after it?

And on a related note, when does the player have to be alive for their public hacker result to go through?

BoomFrog wrote:In fact anyone who takes Public Day Alignment Cop can also take EPGO without undue suspicion. If they prove it by copping someone day 1. That's a decent chunk of points spent helping town. If the scum take public cops and spend their actions clearing town, I'll be pretty happy.

I'm sure that would work out really well if they happened to target another player who had the same thought. And were you planning to have the PGO/Cop claim their PGO ability or not? Because if you were, then the scum wouldn't target them either and so it's useless wine. And if you weren't, then what happens when someone decides to, you know, epic-bodyguard the confirmed cop?

Why the sudden reversal of your position on PGOs? It's really not consistent with your position on horcruxes at all, either. Horcruxes stop some deaths, without any particular bias towards stopping town deaths over stopping scum deaths, while PGOs kill some people, without any particular bias towards killing scum over killing town (and I know webby said there will be lots more town actions flying around so only scum should take PGOs, but that's fallacious because we only need to kill a few scum and they need to kill a lot of town.)

I agree with webby and, ironically, you: Town shouldn't take PGOs. Allowing it just creates wine and destabilizes the game.

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