U.S. Republican Primary

[mmmcannibalism]

The common workaround is that "microevolution is possible, macroevolution is bunk." People admit to finches but insist that finches can't evolve between "kinds" of animals.

Saying microevolution is possible but macro isn't is like saying that its impossible to bike across a country even though its possible to bike across each mile of it.(paraphrase in spirit of a dawkins quote.)

[The Reaper]

The common workaround is that "microevolution is possible, macroevolution is bunk." People admit to finches but insist that finches can't evolve between "kinds" of animals.

Saying microevolution is possible but macro isn't is like saying that its impossible to bike across a country even though its possible to bike across each mile of it.(paraphrase in spirit of a dawkins quote.)

Zeno's dichotomy paradox keeps them awake at night in a cold sweat.

[podbaydoor]

Of course, that's assuming that the person in question has a brain, an education, and can't quite dismiss all scientific evidence in their own minds - hence the need to take refuge in half-measures like microevolution and intelligent design. The young-earth creationists - the ones in the survey who believe that the Judeo-Christian god created everything exactly the way it is now, 6000 years ago* - don't bother with compromises or paradoxes, they just straight up believe what they believe and to hell with science**.

*most YECs also believe in Noah's Ark. So some might admit to microevolution because they reason that all birds descended from the birds on the Ark - but others insist that Noah fit billions of species onto the Ark. Clearly it was a proto-TARDIS, anyone?

**except when someone like the Discovery Institute publishes evidence that "supports" Intelligent Design, then they're all over it.

[Vaniver]

Have people even seen bacteria?

I find this question incredibly amusing, given the requirements to see bacteria.

[Ibid]

Have people even seen bacteria?

I find this question incredibly amusing, given the requirements to see bacteria.

Spoiler:

*BAM*

[Fantastic Idea]

it's true, one probably has to go all the way down to the moving-picture show gallery to see images of something they wouldn't readily be able to see in their normal lives. Costs a nickel and you get news, too.

[IcedT]

Spoiler:

*BAM*

That image was clearly photoshopped by Satan.

[Diadem]

Have people even seen bacteria?

I find this question incredibly amusing, given the requirements to see bacteria.

Spoiler:

*BAM*

But that's an electron microscope image. So not really seeing.

You can actually see bacteria with a normal microscope. Since that's a much simpler mechanism, that's much more convincing proof for a layman. Everybody knows that you can magnify stuff with lenses, and you can even zoom in from macroscale.

Also there's several types of bacteria you can see with the naked eye.

[Sockmonkey]

What are you a photon snob? Electrons aren't good enough for ya?

[Diadem]

Density fluctuations in the air are good enough for me. But it's not seeing (unless you're a bat). Electromagnetic repulsion between the atoms of my skin and the atoms of some other object is good enough for me, but it's not seeing either. There are many ways of gathering information about the world. Only one of them is called 'seeing'. Electron microscopy is a technique fundamentally different from seeing. It's cool, it works, but not seeing.

[Ibid]

Density fluctuations in the air are good enough for me. But it's not seeing (unless you're a bat). Electromagnetic repulsion between the atoms of my skin and the atoms of some other object is good enough for me, but it's not seeing either. There are many ways of gathering information about the world. Only one of them is called 'seeing'. Electron microscopy is a technique fundamentally different from seeing. It's cool, it works, but not seeing.

Aha! But the bat is merely turning sound waves into visual information, much as the electron microscope is turning electrons into visual information. If bat's echolocation and television are both "seeing", then the definition of "seeing" relies neither on transmission (in both cases it's transferred by non-photonic means), nor on the actual sensing (bat's hear their echolocation, they don't recieve photons from it), and it's merely the mapping that you define as "seeing".

So clearly that picture is seeing. :p

(also, this is the most rediculous argument ever. I know what you mean, but I'm being obtuse for theatrical reasons)

[Diadem]

The line about bats was a joke (inside an argument that was already not entirely serious. So a meta-joke perhaps?).

It is however true that electron microscopy is a lot more indirect than light microscopy. You don't use your own senses, but instead construct artificial ones, the data of which you then translate into something you can understand with your ordinary senses. So it is different on a fundamental level.

And it will be less convincing to someone skeptical of and illinformed about science. He'll see a magic box that makes pictures. anything could happen.

[podbaydoor]

Which is funny because a lot of those people are arguing on the side of a magical person making everything in the universe.

[Lucrece]

Whatever explanation science comes up with, God will be behind it because God guides science. He just forgot to update his complete and unerrant, all-encompassing book of truths and instead hides the updates in nature for us to find them out and attribute them back to him.

[Dauric]

Whatever explanation science comes up with, God will be behind it because God guides science. He just forgot to update his complete and unerrant, all-encompassing book of truths and instead hides the updates in nature for us to find them out and attribute them back to him.

There was a church sign in my area that last week said something to the effect of: "Read the Bible, it's user friendly" and on the other side "Tech support here Sundays"

To which I thought "Requiring weekly tech support is -not- a sign of a stable system."

Of course this makes sense if God discontinued support for the automatic updates and outsourced the manual updates.

[emceng]

I had a strong urge this weekend to find a Christian and try and convert them to atheism. Not sure why. Maybe because I've been reading Age of Reason lately, or because I got the boot from a girl because she's super Jesusy.

[Vaniver]

I had a strong urge this weekend to find a Christian and try and convert them to atheism.

Note that people pick religions based on who shares the religion with them: obviously crazy cults manage to recruit sane adherents by providing them with a satisfying social experience. Trying to convince people of reductionism is much less effective than creating a vibrant atheist community.

[The Reaper]

To which I thought "Requiring weekly tech support is -not- a sign of a stable system."
Of course this makes sense if God discontinued support for the automatic updates and outsourced the manual updates.

Automatic updates are for the next model series. They're working on a upgrade to provide for some manual hardware updates, however firmware updates will still be unavailable.

[podbaydoor]

Yesterday, I saw a church sign that said "The key to victory is to obey Jesus."

Indeed. Indeed.

[Lucrece]

[podbaydoor]

Which brings us right around to the topic again - how many of the GOP candidates do you think felt that God was telling them to run for office?

[Garm]

This is what I think of Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann:

“Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6).

Also, too:

“When you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the Gentiles, because they think that by their many words they will be heard. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him” (Matthew 6:7-8).

I really really wish we could remove the "requirement" that our president be publicly religious. In my opinion, and experience, it just breeds hypocrisy.

[Vaniver]

So... Rick Perry actually has a really good relationship with Texan Muslims.

[mmmcannibalism]

So... Rick Perry actually has a really good relationship with Texan Muslims.

I think I just gave up on comprehending psychology.

[Garm]

So... Rick Perry actually has a really good relationship with Texan Muslims.

That's cool. Not sure how it makes him less of a hypocrite.

[Dark567]

The terrible thing about that is that in the current political zeitgeist that's probably more of a liability then a benefit.

[Aikanaro]

So... Rick Perry actually has a really good relationship with Texan Muslims.

I should NOT have read that article, if for no other reason than this quote from Gingrich threatening to give me an aneurysm:

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich has proposed a federal anti-sharia law. "I am convinced that if we do not decisively win the struggle over the nature of America, by the time [my grandchildren] are my age they will be in a secular atheist country, potentially one dominated by radical Islamists,” Gingrich said to thousands of evangelical churchgoers during a March address at Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas.

secular atheist....radical Islamists

HATE. HATE. HATE.

[podbaydoor]

Yeah, I was pretty surprised by the article. It's actually pretty encouraging, in the same way as "Dick Cheney supports gay rights because of his daughter" is encouraging. Rick Perry is still an asshat and I would fear to have him as President, but a broken clock is right every so often, I guess.

That said, the analysis of how his actions would be taken in the GOP race is head-bangingly infuriating. I particularly enjoyed that Herman Cain, a fucking black man running for President, is demanding a fucking loyalty oath. And the quoted comments from conservative bloggers makes me want to strangle things. "Oh no, Rick Perry treated American citizens like American citizens. I'M NEVER VOTING FOR HIM."

[najradanti]

I particularly enjoyed that Herman Cain, a fucking black man running for President, is demanding a fucking loyalty oath.

Herman Cain is a douchebag because he is an intolerant bigot. He is not a bigger douchebag because he is a black intolerant bigot. While it would certainly be nice if all minorities were wonderfully accepting of everyone, we are under no extra-special requirement to do so any more than anyone else. There are any number of ways I could read your need to point out that he is black; regardless of which implication you are implying they are all obnoxious.

[podbaydoor]

The reason why I pointed out that he was black is because of the historical irony of the thing. Yes, I know that minorities have bigots among them (I'm of Chinese descent, it happens all the time in that community, for example) and it doesn't make them special either way. However, when you take it into historical context, it is ironic that a man who would have been barred from running for office or required to jump through suffocating hoops designed to keep him out, not that long ago, is turning around and arguing for inflicting the same thing on other American citizens. In that context, being black is relevant to why it's ironic.

[Dauric]

I particularly enjoyed that Herman Cain, a fucking black man running for President, is demanding a fucking loyalty oath.

Herman Cain is a douchebag because he is an intolerant bigot. He is not a bigger douchebag because he is a black intolerant bigot. While it would certainly be nice if all minorities were wonderfully accepting of everyone, we are under no extra-special requirement to do so any more than anyone else. There are any number of ways I could read your need to point out that he is black; regardless of which implication you are implying they are all obnoxious.

Well, these days "black" in and of itself doesn't make the larger douchebag, but if someone was discriminated against because of their heritage then turns around and discriminates against others that would certainly qualify for the Warehouse Club sized douchebag package.

In Mr Cain's case it's ... arguably borderline. His parents worked lower class jobs (cleaner and a chauffeur) and lived in Georgia, though Herman Cain himself has a number of degrees and has been the CEO of a pizza chain. He's hardly a poster child for the "Oppressed Minority", but I have a very hard time imagining that he's so completely divorced from being on the receiving end of discrimination that engaging in it himself doesn't qualify him from being an economy-sized douchebag.

[Роберт]

In Mr Cain's case it's ... arguably borderline. His parents worked lower class jobs (cleaner and a chauffeur) and lived in Georgia, though Herman Cain himself has a number of degrees and has been the CEO of a pizza chain. He's hardly a poster child for the "Oppressed Minority", but I have a very hard time imagining that he's so completely divorced from being on the receiving end of discrimination that engaging in it himself doesn't qualify him from being an economy-sized douchebag.

It's like when a gay person demonstrates trans-phobia. Transphobia is always bad, but when it's from a gay person it's like "wtf"? Even if the gay person hasn't personally experienced much homophobia, you still expected someone with some sort of minority status to be more aware of what is hurtful bigotry.

[LtNOWIS]

So... Rick Perry actually has a really good relationship with Texan Muslims.

Well, this makes me more inclined to support Perry in the primary. That and the fact that I don't think he'd be as terrible in a general election as many people seem to think.

[podbaydoor]

No. His douchebaggery with respect to The Response, and his association with Christion dominionists, as well as the lies that he's spreading about his effect on the Texas economy, make him one of the worse candidates.

[Роберт]

No. His douchebaggery with respect to The Response, and his association with Christion dominionists, as well as the lies that he's spreading about his effect on the Texas economy, make him one of the worse candidates.

That would be quite a feat.

Surely better than that Bachmann or Gingrich or Santorum?

[Tirian]

The reason why I pointed out that he was black is because of the historical irony of the thing.

But it's also ironic for social progress to free blacks and then expect that they will only use their freedom to pursue social progress. If Hermain Cain is free, then his ideology is only as ugly as Gingrich or Palin's.

[podbaydoor]

Again, that's if you choose to remove the context of how things have played out historically. Whether you choose to acknowledge that context or not depends on your framework and priorities.

Michele Bachmann's ancestors didn't suffer through slavery/exclusion/Jim Crow/etc., whereas Cain's ancestors did. That is an actual fact, and that does shape the way their bigoted views are perceived and analyzed.

[The Reaper]

Suffering isn't passed genetically....

[emceng]

No. His douchebaggery with respect to The Response, and his association with Christion dominionists, as well as the lies that he's spreading about his effect on the Texas economy, make him one of the worse candidates.

This is why Baader Meinhoff fucks with me so much. I read a shitload of news and such online, and yet I had never heard of dominionists - until 15 minutes ago when I read about it in an editorial in the local paper.

[podbaydoor]

Suffering isn't passed genetically....

No...but it's passed psychologically, and it teaches lessons even when the suffering has ceased or changed.