[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

[Monika]

@Superglucose: Sounds like the two of you are having fun


@NecklaceOfShadow: *hugs*

[joshz]

H'ray for superglucose!

*hugs Emi*

[natashatasha]

My room mate heard me practising my voice and said I sounded like Fluttershy! *Flaps wings* Yay

[a_fuzzyduck]

*hugs for Emi*

[Jessica]

My room mate heard me practicing my voice and said I sounded like Fluttershy! *Flaps wings* Yay

Fluttershy speaks as if she's whispering all the time (a breathy sound). But, that can be worked on as well. Try speaking with a kermit voice (in the back of your throat) and then pull your tongue forward until it starts to sound less nasally and more natural.

Sorry, I know you meant that as a positive. I'm just trying to give some constructive criticism. It's awesome, and it's getting better!

[Aaeriele]

My room mate heard me practising my voice and said I sounded like Fluttershy! *Flaps wings* Yay

yay

also, hello from hong kong international airport

[joshz]

also, hello from hong kong international airport

Woo! How was the flight?

[manictheatrefan]

also, hello from hong kong international airport

As a Hong Konger, I welcome you (except not really? because I'm not in HK at the moment.)

If you don't mind me asking, what are you doing in HK that calls for being there in the summer? IMO, the weather's much more pleasant in the winter; it's far too hot and humid in the summer (but I suppose it doesn't really matter because every place is air-conditioned now).

[Zeroignite]

As I have more intimate experiences I have with people of various genders and body configurations, rigid categories "gay" and "straight" feel more and more painfully artificial, unnecessary, and constricting.

[poxic]

Yay!

Er, for the realisation, I mean. Not the constrictingness. >.>

I'm also learning about such things. Interestingly enough, I had to stop having intimate experiences for this realisation to happen. I just couldn't see past the whole "must have boyfriend to be happy" thing that had been drilled into me. Not until I actually spent several years without a date or even a crush.

Now that I've learned stuff, it's easy to see that I'm muuuuuuch better off not feeling obligated to have sex. What a constant pummeling on my self-esteem, to keep thinking there was something desperately wrong with me because I just couldn't like sex the way ... er ... non-asexuals do.

>.<

Goddamn am I happy to have learned about AVEN and the existence of asexuality. I wish the same feeling of self-recognition and liberation onto everyone, wherever that liberation takes them (between consenting adults etc. ).

[Zeroignite]

We need a equally-marked term for non-asexuals.
(Also everyone should read that link because it's excellent.)
(Also also I think it's why I like the terms "deaf" and "hearing" so much when contrasted against each other (I've started taking an ASL class.) They're equally-marked terms.)

[poxic]

Hmm. Asexual vs ... consexual?

[superglucose]

I've seen numerous people say things to the effect of "we should take all cis people and stick them on an island" or "cis people make me cry" etc. etc. I myself have internalized "cis = boring."

This is a warning to EVERYONE here: be careful how you use the term "cis." It's already starting to have a very negative connotation in the ears of those who are cis.

[poxic]

The article Zig linked to does argue the case that cis won't really be a slur, outside of some of the LGBT community, until it becomes used as widely as slurs against (for example) LGBTs are.

Also: "consexual" might be unnecessary. "Sexual" is the most often-used term on AVEN to describe not-asexuals, and sexual-asexual seems neutral enough for the most part.

[superglucose]

The article Zig linked to does argue the case that cis won't really be a slur, outside of some of the LGBT community, until it becomes used as widely as slurs against (for example) LGBTs are.

"It's not bullying as long as someone has it worse"?

[Zeroignite]

I have never, ever seen "cis" in a general sense used as anything but a neutral-descriptive term.

[superglucose]

It's not so much that it's used as a non-neutral term, but that a lot of people use "cis people" when they mean "cis people who are transphobic." The latter is a subset of the former... and thinking like this leads to "them vs us" mentalities which then lead to "cis" being used as an insult.

[Monika]

I have also not seen cis used in a negative way. I have, however, seen a couple of cis people whine about the term. Not sure what they desire to be called - nontransexual/nontransgender? I think it's part of a "we are normal so we don't need a term" mentality, which is (a) bad and (b) nicely countered in the article linked to by Zero.

I also think "sexual" is a fine opposite to "asexual". "Non-asexual" is a suitable explanation where "sexual" will not be clear to all readers ... so in most contexts outside AVEN and similar communities.

Also also I think it's why I like the terms "deaf" and "hearing" so much when contrasted against each other (I've started taking an ASL class.) They're equally-marked terms.)

I think the equally marked term "cis" is very necessary, but whether equally marked terms are used / developed / preferred depends on the culture / subculture / group. In English, deaf people do use the term "Deaf" for themselves and want to be called that way. In German, it's quite the opposite. Deaf Germans desire to be called "gehörlos" (without-hearing), they dislike "taub" (deaf) and they hate the previously used official term "taubstumm" (deaf-mute) with a passion.

[superglucose]

"Cis" makes me think of "cyst" and also it makes the chemist in me very confused.

[Monika]

"Cis" makes me think of "cyst"

Well, that's your problem. I guess you will have to travel back to 1991 and tell Volkmar Sigusch that he should not use Zissexualität as the opposite to Transsexualität, even though it makes perfect sense to use the Latin word meaning "on the same side" as an opposite to the Latin word that means "on the other side" / "beyond", and which has already been used in this sense in other words, like Cis–trans isomerism or Gallia cisalpina (Gaul on the same side of the Alpes as Rome) as the opposite to Gallia transalpina (Gaul on the other side of the Alpes as seen from Rome), just because "cis" sounds similar to a not-so-nice word in some other language when appending a letter.

BTW, do you have the same problem when someone calls their female sibling "sis"?

Also, I am awaiting your suggestions for pleasant-sounding alternatives to "cis".

and also it makes the chemist in me very confused.

How so? Are you thinking of some element?

[Vaniver]

Compare: "That has not been my experience, but I'll watch out for it!" and "That has not been my experience."

[superglucose]

"Cis" makes me think of "cyst"

Well, that's your problem. I guess you will have to travel back to 1991 and tell Volkmar Sigusch that he should not use Zissexualität as the opposite to Transsexualität, even though it makes perfect sense to use the Latin word meaning "on the same side" as an opposite to the Latin word that means "on the other side" / "beyond", and which has already been used in this sense in other words, like Cis–trans isomerism or Gallia cisalpina (Gaul on the same side of the Alpes as Rome) as the opposite to Gallia transalpina (Gaul on the other side of the Alpes as seen from Rome), just because "cis" sounds similar to a not-so-nice word in some other language when appending a letter.

BTW, do you have the same problem when someone calls their female sibling "sis"?

Also, I am awaiting your suggestions for pleasant-sounding alternatives to "cis".

Heaven forbid I dislike how something sounds! Between your insistence that no one ever uses cis in a negative way and your complete dismissal of my dislike of the sound of a certain word I wonder... do you think you see this as neutral?

and also it makes the chemist in me very confused.

How so? Are you thinking of some element?

Whenever I think "trans" I think of "transition" and that's been how I think about it. Whenever I hear the reference to cis-trans isomerism I start thinking about how people's genitals are arranged with relation to their body. I.e. a "cissexual" person would have all their genitals on the same side of the body... as opposed to a "transsexual" person who would have their genitals on opposites sides of the body. I start imagining the stereosexuality and trying to rotate people in my brain to see if they're R or L. I'm (+)Male man, maybe? Or (+)(+) hetero-male man. It's simulataneously amusing and makes me think someone just didn't think the naming through.

If you don't understand why cis-trans isomerism is not exactly a good comparison for sex and gender it's because you don't properly understand what's going on with cis-trans isomerism. A male-bodied man isn't "cis" because his gender and sex are on "the same side." The same side of what, exactly?

It's just a weird term that feels misused and also sounds weird. I see absolutely no reason to get upset by that. Also your comment that I'm whining because obviously I think I'm normal and don't need a term for me is completely out of line.

Compare: "That has not been my experience, but I'll watch out for it!" and "That has not been my experience."

Actually what Monika is saying is "That has not been my experience, therefore that cannot possibly have ever been an experience you've had, and clearly you're just whining and there's nothing wrong at all and you need to man up, you damn cis person."

Personally I would prefer "trans" vs "non-trans," i.e. "people who want to transition" and "people who do not want to transition." Or an even more radical idea: how about "trans-woman" goes away and you're either "man," "woman," or something in between based on how you identify yourself? Especially if "asexual" vs "non-asexual" is an acceptable dichotomy.

I'll also refer you to my previous statement: do you believe it's not bullying as long as someone has it worse?

[doogly]

We need a equally-marked term for non-asexuals.
(Also everyone should read that link because it's excellent.)

Huh. Let me suggest an alteration of one of the charts in there:
Othering:
cis woman / trans woman
Not othering:
woman / woman

I mean, my current understanding is that you would never want to insist that someone needs to keep some sort of "trans" marker around. The article sounds like it is objecting to the person who wants to insist that the "trans" label also needs to exist - if the dropdown menu for gender selection has male / female / trans man / trans woman, they are going to police all the folks they think should be picking trans. I think the optimal response to that person is to tell them to stop that shit.

A male-bodied man isn't "cis" because his gender and sex are on "the same side." The same side of what, exactly?

Ooooh, oooh, I know this one! The same side of the sex and gender binaries! Those things everyone loves so much and thinks are awesome.

[Belial]

Hey guys. Know what this is? The queer support safespace. Know what this isn't? The place to complain that queer people are DOIN IT WRONG.

Cut it the fuck out. Nowish.

[harutake]

long thread is loooong, so this might have already been beaten into the ground, but I just wanted to point out that in the GLBT community that I'm familiar with, "transgender" is a preferred umbrella term, referring to those who do not express themselves as the gender they were physically born with; "transsexual" is more specific, referring either to someone who's had the surgery, or is planning to, and "transvestite" is the clinical term for a cross-dresser, while "transgender" encompasses both of those and other various incarnations.

[Shivahn]

We need a equally-marked term for non-asexuals.
(Also everyone should read that link because it's excellent.)
(Also also I think it's why I like the terms "deaf" and "hearing" so much when contrasted against each other (I've started taking an ASL class.) They're equally-marked terms.)

I like that link as a whole, though I've never found the vanilla/kinky dichotomy to be a neutral dichotomy. "Vanilla" seems to imply boring to me.

[PM 2Ring]

"Vanilla" seems to imply boring to me.

Ice ice, baby.

[superglucose]

Trying out tucking. I could probably do this more often... sitting down is something I'll need to practice though.

[PM 2Ring]

Trying out tucking. I could probably do this more often... sitting down is something I'll need to practice though.

Yes, it's definitely an acquired art. Sitting can be a bit tricky at first, and don't try to tuck for long periods of time until you're totally comfortable with it.

[superglucose]

I'm not quite confident enough to try the "push the testes back into the body" trick so I'm just hodling between my legs until I get tape. I'm thinking of getting some kind of cloth so I don't have to shave my junk.

[PM 2Ring]

I'm not quite confident enough to try the "push the testes back into the body" trick so I'm just hodling between my legs until I get tape. I'm thinking of getting some kind of cloth so I don't have to shave my junk.

Ok. What you're currently doing is not really tucking. And sitting down like that is definitely uncomfortable, to say the least. Please be careful that you don't do yourself an injury.

Taping isn't easy, especially if you're not doing it in conjunction with tucking. And removing tape that's stuck to pubic hair is not an experience you'll want to repeat on a regular basis.

The "push the testes back into the body" trick is easy, once you work out where things go. They don't really go inside the body (except in fairly unusual cases), they just sit at the very top of the scrotum in a kind of hollow region of the pubic bone.

I tried to tuck unsuccessfully for years, until I got better information from those threads I linked to earlier. Once I worked out how to tuck I was so happy, but also annoyed that I hadn't known how to do it properly much earlier. For years I avoided wearing tight-fitting skirts & dresses and only cross-dressed in loose-fitting ones. If only I'd known how easy it was! And I must say that it feels more feminine to me (whatever that means ) to not have my genitalia dangling around between my legs.

You don't need to shave, but it does help to prevent things slipping. Cloth won't stop that. But you do need tape or some kind of garment to keep the tuck in place. Some people can manage that with tightish undies (even a small pair of briefs worn backwards can work). Another popular choice is cut-off pantyhose, ie pantyhose shorts. I sometimes use that method, but mostly I like to use a padded lycra panty-girdle because it keeps everything in place with minimal pressure, plus it adds a few "girly" curves. And you get the added benefit that it keeps your tummy looking good, too.

[lanicita]

We need a equally-marked term for non-asexuals.
(Also everyone should read that link because it's excellent.)
(Also also I think it's why I like the terms "deaf" and "hearing" so much when contrasted against each other (I've started taking an ASL class.) They're equally-marked terms.)

I like that link as a whole, though I've never found the vanilla/kinky dichotomy to be a neutral dichotomy. "Vanilla" seems to imply boring to me.

Yes, that. I was really surprised that an otherwise well-thought-out blog missed that. I can't think of a good alternative term though.

[Zeroignite]

I don't think of it as pushing the testicles up/in as much as it is sort of... rotating them around laterally until they end up above the base of the shaft. Surprisingly not-uncomfortable, though they have an unfortunate tendency to slip out.

[superglucose]

I'm not quite confident enough to try the "push the testes back into the body" trick so I'm just hodling between my legs until I get tape. I'm thinking of getting some kind of cloth so I don't have to shave my junk.

Ok. What you're currently doing is not really tucking. And sitting down like that is definitely uncomfortable, to say the least. Please be careful that you don't do yourself an injury.

Taping isn't easy, especially if you're not doing it in conjunction with tucking. And removing tape that's stuck to pubic hair is not an experience you'll want to repeat on a regular basis.

The "push the testes back into the body" trick is easy, once you work out where things go. They don't really go inside the body (except in fairly unusual cases), they just sit at the very top of the scrotum in a kind of hollow region of the pubic bone.

I tried to tuck unsuccessfully for years, until I got better information from those threads I linked to earlier. Once I worked out how to tuck I was so happy, but also annoyed that I hadn't known how to do it properly much earlier. For years I avoided wearing tight-fitting skirts & dresses and only cross-dressed in loose-fitting ones. If only I'd known how easy it was! And I must say that it feels more feminine to me (whatever that means ) to not have my genitalia dangling around between my legs.

You don't need to shave, but it does help to prevent things slipping. Cloth won't stop that. But you do need tape or some kind of garment to keep the tuck in place. Some people can manage that with tightish undies (even a small pair of briefs worn backwards can work). Another popular choice is cut-off pantyhose, ie pantyhose shorts. I sometimes use that method, but mostly I like to use a padded lycra panty-girdle because it keeps everything in place with minimal pressure, plus it adds a few "girly" curves. And you get the added benefit that it keeps your tummy looking good, too.

Can you post those links again? Not sure I'm ready to try it yet -.- But worth it!

[PM 2Ring]

EDIT: Oh, and something that $girl can't really help me with: tucking. Anyone have good tips?

Yes.

Spoiler:

Check out these threads from http://www.crossdressers.com/forums, which is a pretty good site for all kinds of people interested in cross-dressing for one reason or another.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?41560-tucking
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?59176-The-Art-of-Tucking-v2.0
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?55475-Tucking-taping-or-gaffing-What-should-I-do

That should give you plenty of reading material for a little while.

Here are some short quotes from the first one of those threads.

I decided to make gravity work for me rather than against me. I used the method of lying on the back with the legs going up the wall, raising the butt so the testes naturally fall to the top of the scrotum. From there, it only takes a little gentle persuasion. Once you know where everything goes, it's gets a lot easier.

After a few more tries I could tuck just lying down with my knees raised. I've been practicing a lot over the last few days & can now tuck while sitting up (most of the time), although it still seems impossible for me to overcome the effects of gravity when trying to tuck standing up.


[...] the key to a successful tuck is to pull the empty scrotum back as far as possible. Stretching the scrotum out flat like this "closes the door" and prevents the testes from re-descending. You will get the best results if the general region is shaved, as this helps reduce slipping. (Pubic hair functions as a kind of lubricating surface.)

If you need more explicit information, please feel free to PM me.

[superglucose]

Whatever. I give up. It's infuriating, frustrating, and for some reason I can't find these magical little holes everyone talks about.

[PM 2Ring]

Whatever. I give up. It's infuriating, frustrating, and for some reason I can't find these magical little holes everyone talks about.

I know that feeling. Having slightly cold hands can help. But not too cold, or you end up fighting the "shrinkage" factor.

Read the descriptions in those linked threads, and give it a try another time. I'm pretty sure that at least one of those threads has a link to a useful diagram of the process that uses tasteful line drawings. Unfortunately, I have no drawing ability, so I can't recreate those drawings for you.

IME, most people who find this difficult are just trying too hard, and expecting the testes to go right up inside them. That's not going to happen, and anyway, it's not necessary. As I said before, you're not trying to push them back up the channels into your abdomen, where they descended from: it's very unlikely that they can go back up there. But there's space for them to sit in at the end of those channels.

I feel a bit uncomfortable giving totally explicit instructions about this in an open forum: you never know who's lurking... I don't want to create a sleazy atmosphere here by talking too much about genital "origami", and this topic is well-covered in those threads, but please feel free to PM me.

[Vaniver]

Actually what Monika is saying is "That has not been my experience, therefore that cannot possibly have ever been an experience you've had, and clearly you're just whining and there's nothing wrong at all and you need to man up, you damn cis person."

The point of writing it like I wrote it was so that they would realize that dismissing your experiences was offensive, without you having to point out you were offended, and there's a way to add their experiences to the conversation without dismissing yours. Ideally, that results in less defensiveness all around.

Can't help you with tucking, though, beyond wishing you luck. (Maybe try out a kilt, and see if that satisfies the same impulses a skirt does, without requiring tucking? Or do you like the femininity of a skirt more than the design?)

[Bassoon]

I'm moving out of this house tomorrow! I'm nearly free!

[Monika]

I don't know if it makes sense to say more about this. Saying something bad about cis people is not "using cis in a negative way". Also not if it's a generalized negative statement that cannot possibly hold true for all cis people in the world, and most likely not even for all cis persons the speaker has met. Likewise if some racist makes idiotic statements like "all blacks are criminals" or "all Muslims are terrorists" (and I have never seen a trans person make remotely similarly harsh/mean/stupid/wrong statements about cis people) there is still nothing wrong with the words "black" or "Muslim".

So I stand with my claim that "cis is starting to be used negatively" is unsupported, and any suggestions to stop using "cis" for this or other reasons are bad. It will take a lot to convince me otherwise, but you can try.