xkcd

by **paulisa** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:32 pm UTC

So, maybe I'm kinda stupid, or the answer is simply "because it's fantasy," but I have some issues with the premises of the books.

Firstly, the whole thing with seasons lasting years. How do you measure a "year" if not by the passing of the seasons? Also, how do crops and stuff work in such a world? Do you just plant whenever you feel like it and a few months later the crop is ripe? What about perennial plants, some of them need frost or such to reset their growing period.

Spoiler:

by **Ulc** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:19 am UTC

paulisa wrote:
Spoiler:
Second, if I read the maps right, Braavos is about as far north as the Fingers, or noch much further south. So how come it's not as cold or stormy? On the other end, Volantis seems to suffer from the same heat as Dorne, and they are about level too so here the weather fits. I also don't understand where the "Dothraki Sea" is. In Dance with Dragons, it seems to be east of Slaver's Bay, but when Dany is taken from Pentos they don't travel that far, and Dothraki sometimes raid near the Rhoyne.

You get weird weather patterns in the real world as well - moscow is about as far north as London, but people are rarely on the verge of dying in their apartments from the cold. Most of Canada is south of Denmark, but we rarely have snow that stays on the ground for more than two weeks. New york sees snow most winters, but is about as far south as turkey, where snowfall outside the mountains is a "once in a generation" thing. Streams in the oceans, ocean/continental climate and mountains changing the wind streams all make simple "north/south" guesses at weather quite wrong.

And I've always imagined the weather in aSoIaF as being normal seasons as a sinus curve, and a much more extreme irregular curve that. So every "long summer" would have sub seasons that just doesn't vary as much.

As for the Dothraki sea, I get the distinct impression that it's rather large, and the dothraki themselves are quite diverse.

by **Sytri** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:22 am UTC

I thought the Dothraki sea was the open expanse of fields as they are horse riders and dislike the actual sea as the horses cant drink the water and they cant ride on it.

by **Sartorius** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:34 pm UTC

Sytri wrote:I thought the Dothraki sea was the open expanse of fields as they are horse riders and dislike the actual sea as the horses cant drink the water and they cant ride on it.

It is. The poster was asking where that area is geographically, in relation to the cities we've learned about.

by **themoneyspider** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:59 am UTC

Think I'll leave this thread for a few months until I'm fully up to date with all the books...a spoiler would kill me.

I almost started reading the wrong book when I got A Feast for Crows....didn't realise book 3 was in two parts in the UK so bought book 4 first....could have been a disaster!

by **Ortus** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:36 pm UTC

I can't get book 4 until I get paid on Friday

The lack of reading material is making my visits to the bathroom/periods of time wherein I have otherwise nothing to do almost unbearable!

by **Ulc** » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:41 am UTC

I realised something about book 5 when I was biking home from work yesterday, about the Quentyn storyline that I hadn't seen the big point of

Spoiler:

by **maybeagnostic** » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:10 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:
Spoiler:
It's partly about showing "dragons are fucking scary, dangerous and not little pets. But it's also about taking away a ally from Dany, Doran Martell is not going to be happy that his son just became BBQ - and she didn't have many allies in westeros to begin with, if she doesn't pick up an army on her way there, she wont have the entirety of dorne at her command due to the BBQ incidet.

Which coupled with her brother invading as well (something that she doesn't know anything about) isn't going to make her arrival at westeros terrible easy.

This realization makes the chapters make a lot more sense to me now

Spoiler:

by **Ulc** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:24 am UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
I thought of that too- as soon as Doran Martell finds out what she did to his son, he'll probably throw in with... Aegon (is that his name?). Anyway, I agree that that's where the story seems to be going and it explains the existence of Quentyn. It doesn't explain why we needed ~100 pages of him being boring and whiny.

Spoiler:

by **Izawwlgood** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:43 pm UTC

Brain fart moment/question:

Spoiler:

by **paulisa** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:26 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Brain fart moment/question:
Spoiler:
In FFC, Sam went to Braavos (or one of the Free Cities) with Gilly, and hilarity ensued. In DWD, Jon sends Sam and Gilly away to save her. Just to make sure I'm not completely missing something here, this is the same event from two different perspectives, yes? I know there's chronological overlap, but I having been paying attention to it so am wondering 'when' we are for some things.

Spoiler:

by **Ulc** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:22 pm UTC

paulisa wrote:
Spoiler:
Now, does anyone beside me doubt a reasonable conclusion to the whole thing is possible in the remaining projected books (aside from some Deus Ex Machina)?

Spoiler:

by **Ortus** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:23 am UTC

Ulc wrote:
paulisa wrote:
Spoiler:
Now, does anyone beside me doubt a reasonable conclusion to the whole thing is possible in the remaining projected books (aside from some Deus Ex Machina)?

Spoiler:
If by reasonable you mean "everyone lives happily ever after an dances around in fields of daffodils being friends" - then yes.

But I consider it perfectly reasonable to end with a conclusion in two books, things are really set to move fast now I think. It wont be a entirely happy ending, but to be honest, did anyone ever actually expect that?

I really need to pick up the fourth and fifth books, this could be the greatest thing ever. Also: hah! Nary a spoiler in that sentence!

by **paulisa** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:47 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:
Spoiler:
If by reasonable you mean "everyone lives happily ever after an dances around in fields of daffodils being friends" - then yes.

But I consider it perfectly reasonable to end with a conclusion in two books, things are really set to move fast now I think. It wont be a entirely happy ending, but to be honest, did anyone ever actually expect that?

Spoiler:

by **Yakk** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:41 pm UTC

So, on the subject of Jon:

Spoiler:

by **Sartorius** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:45 pm UTC

Is it just me, or does the Seven seem to be the one of the weakest religions (in terms of ability to cause supernatural occurrences), when it should be the strongest with how many followers it has?

by **Yakk** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:20 am UTC

Huh? The Seven are only in Westeros, which is a (relatively) small part of the world.

Spoiler:

by **eeris** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:41 am UTC

Spoiler:

by **Sytri** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:24 pm UTC

Spoiler:

by **Yakk** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:43 pm UTC

Spoiler:

by **Sartorius** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:18 am UTC

Yakk wrote:Huh? The Seven are only in Westeros, which is a (relatively) small part of the world.

Right, but a majority of people in Westeros believe in them (at least technically), compared to the Drowned God or the old gods.

Sytri wrote:
Spoiler:
Isn't it implied in Book 2 or 3 that the magic is coming back because of the dragons? Something about when the alchemists were making the green fire the head alchemist said something along the lines of, "We havent been able to make things this fast with our spells since the day of the dragons" it was completely ignored by Tyrion who just asks him to keep making more. Sorry for vague-ness, bit sleepy and it's Friday

Spoiler:

by **mosc** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:02 pm UTC

Spoiler:

by **Yakk** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:10 pm UTC

Sartorius wrote:
Yakk wrote:Huh? The Seven are only in Westeros, which is a (relatively) small part of the world.

Right, but a majority of people in Westeros believe in them (at least technically), compared to the Drowned God or the old gods.

Sure. But when they showed up, the legend says that the 7 gods walked the world. Now, possibly this is true. Or not.

If not, it is quite possible that it spread during a "low-magic" period. In which case, why wouldn't you worship this non-magic faith if the other faiths are also non-magic?

by **Sartorius** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:17 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:
Sartorius wrote:
Yakk wrote:Huh? The Seven are only in Westeros, which is a (relatively) small part of the world.

Right, but a majority of people in Westeros believe in them (at least technically), compared to the Drowned God or the old gods.

Sure. But when they showed up, the legend says that the 7 gods walked the world. Now, possibly this is true. Or not.

If not, it is quite possible that it spread during a "low-magic" period. In which case, why wouldn't you worship this non-magic faith if the other faiths are also non-magic?

Huh, I missed the part about them walking the world.

I guess I'm thinking of the Discworld universe where the more you believe in a deity, the stronger its power becomes. But I also feel like with how popular the Seven are in Westeros, we should be seeing more supernatural events attributed to them, like with the R'hllor priests and

Spoiler:

by **mosc** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:34 pm UTC

Is there some significance in greek or roman mythology with 7 "major" gods? It seems like the maesters are more techincally advanced. Modern. It wouldn't surprise me if they were more parallel to grekoroman non-magic based forces. GRRM seems to be using some tolken-eskque "it was such a long time ago people don't remember it right but may have actually evolved into our modern world" kinda thing.

by **Ulc** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:30 am UTC

mosc wrote:"it was such a long time ago people don't remember it right but may have actually evolved into our modern world"

I really, really doubt that. It's just far to cheap a cop-out that demeans the whole setting.

Far better to just portray a fantasy world and let it be a world in itself, without having to resort to cheap deux ex. Or at least I hope that GRRM doesn't pick such a silly approach.

by **mosc** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:23 pm UTC

It doesn't have to be so literal. It's just part of the "historical" part of the fiction.

Tolkein made a mythology as much as a novel. It didn't grow organically over time like "real" mythology, but it was clearly his intent early on to make something with an eye towards the past in a realistic sort of way. I think GRRM is similarly making a mythology more than a fantasy. It's a story of our past through the eyes of some hypothetical people recanting a distorted tale passed through the generations from a time they didn't understand.

by **Jave D** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:57 am UTC

My newest favorite character, as of Dance With Dragons, is:

Spoiler:

by **Ulc** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:15 am UTC

Jave D wrote:My newest favorite character, as of Dance With Dragons, is:

Spoiler:
Lord Wyman Manderly! I didn't even catch it on the first read-through, but he took those three missing Freys and made wedding pies out of them and fed them to everyone! Including himself!

Revenge is a dish best served hot and tasty. *slaps belly*

And those fucking Freys all deserve to die. Every last goddam one.

Spoiler:

by **Jave D** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:23 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:
Jave D wrote:My newest favorite character, as of Dance With Dragons, is:

Spoiler:
Lord Wyman Manderly! I didn't even catch it on the first read-through, but he took those three missing Freys and made wedding pies out of them and fed them to everyone! Including himself!

Revenge is a dish best served hot and tasty. *slaps belly*

And those fucking Freys all deserve to die. Every last goddam one.

Spoiler:
It's a little disturbing that you pick you favourite based on a cannibalistic incident that was inflicted on people (without them knowing).

The scary part is that Manderly isn't particularly worse than any other character in the series. But cooking people into wedding pies is rather nasty.

Spoiler:

by **Czhorat** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:54 pm UTC

Has anyone seen the discussion on ASoIaF at TigerBeatdown?

http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/08/26/ent ... -r-martin/

To summerize, the blogger found the books distasteful because if the prevalence or rape and threatened rape, that rape scenes are often eroticized, and that female characters display a lack of agency, especially sexually. Cersei does act with the same level of sexual freedom as many of the male characters and is, therefore, a villain. I think the blogger makes a good point about the level of brutality, especially sexual brutality, in these books. Reflecting on them, the level of sheer violence is the biggest thing separating this from any other endless fantasy doorstop. I'm adding them to Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant in the list of fantasy books with compelling plots that I'll not read (nor recommend to others) because of how they handle sexual violence against women.

by **mosc** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:07 pm UTC

Obviously GRRM is not writing a fantasy world where Men and Women are equal. A lot of what he's complaining about falls from that. His fiction is purposely rooted in a world where women range from sex slaves to marital property and rarely more. In fact, Denary's ability to gain the loyalty of men is intentionally rare. I think your blogger there is forgetting that the strength of historical fiction comes in it's themes from history. Women being less powerful than Men is one of these key themes.

If literature has taught us anything, it's that the most effective way to show bigotry is to humanize it and to show both sides for what they are. Fiction has an uncanny way of showing truth by unrealistically leveling the point of view. In other words, writing about a rapist can be the single most powerful way to show the horrors of rape. GRRM's fantasy world of oppressed Women can have the effect of referencing things in our own past (and present for that matter) where women are oppressed.

by **SecondTalon** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:41 pm UTC

Counter-Argument : Westeros is not Europe, and the roles Women had in Europe are not even universal to Earth, so why would they apply to Westeros?
Westeros has Magic. And Dragons. Earth does not.
Westeros is assaulted by Magic Frost Demons, the Walking Dead and Dragons, yet.. has European culture. Why?

Georgie wrote it that way.

If you have a land assaulted by Magic Frost Demons, the Walking Dead, and Dragons, your culture is not going to mimic Europe. Also, you probably won't have towers in your castles. Just thick, unclimbable walls so as to keep the Magic Frost Demons and Walking Dead out, and low, rounded buildings to keep the Dragons from eating your shit.

Yes, the Dragons are essentially extinct, and yes, the Peoples have forgotten that Magic Frost Demons and Walking Dead are Real Things. They're also not entirely clear on whether or not Magic is real. This doesn't mean they'd tear down everything and suddenly build structures that make no sense, it means they might have new buildings that make no sense, but the old buildings and forts would be built to withstand Magic Frost Demons, Walking Dead, and Dragons.

So, what's the point in all my ramblings?

Women are only second class because George wrote them that way. Now, there's people who take the malicious tact and assume Georgie doesn't like women or actively thinks they're stupid and have cooties. Me? I just think it's lazy shorthand writing. Coming up with a culture that's actually been assaulted by Magic Frost Demons, Walking Dead and Dragons? That's Hard. Just drop Europe on it and make up some new names and call it a day.

Because I assure you, in a world assaulted by Magic Frost Demons that make Walking Dead, even the Dornish would have a phrase that roughly meant "Winter is coming"

Also "Oh shit, Dragons"

by **Izawwlgood** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:56 pm UTC

Czhorat wrote: that rape scenes are often eroticized

What? Has the person read the books? The rape scenes are horrific, terrifying, and lead us to feel nothing but revulsion and sympathy for those who are raped.

Czhorat wrote:Cersei does act with the same level of sexual freedom as many of the male characters and is, therefore, a villain

Cersei is NOT the only character in the series who displays sexual freedom, but she is a 'villain' because she's fucking insane, manipulative and vindictive, none of which have to do with her sexuality. There are at least two women I can think of offhand (Asha and Dany) who fuck like whoa and are mostly awesome on the side. But there aren't really villains, so much as people who want to get their way.

These blog posts are getting boring.

by **Yakk** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:09 pm UTC

Have you seen the timeline put together? I doubt it is canon, but:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ti ... jor_events

The Valyrian only reach Westros 200 years before they invade (why wait that long?), or 100 years after the Doom. Within 130ish years after invading, the last Dragon dies. It has been ~300 years since the invasion.

The Long Night is about 10,000 years ago.

The structure built to defend against the others is the Wall, and structures with similar ages. There are few structures in Westros built to defend against Dragons, as they where a relatively recent event that "flamed out" quickly.

Issues I'd have include the slow speed of Valyrian conquest. But I could easily see castles being built to defend against local problems, rather than remote ancient myths.

by **Sartorius** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:49 pm UTC

I feel like this is GRRM's take on how much the middle ages sucked and that stereotypical Disney princess stories aren't all they're cracked up to be. The older generation comes from such stories, of heroes overthrowing an evil despot, of gallant knights and arranged marriages and everyone doing their duty and liking it (even if they really don't, or eventually learning to like what they have). The younger generation of Arya, Sansa, Margaery, Asha, Dany, Brienne, and the Dornish princesses (hell, I'll even throw in Melisandre) resents this narrative and is (or will be) rising up to take the places of power previously held solely by the men. I think we're watching a cultural shift from one of "women through their babymaking are a great way to seal alliances and gain power" to "women can kick ass and take names, too, in any way that a man can." Any way that a man has gained power, these females are gaining power as well, from brawn to brains.

by **JudeMorrigan** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:28 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Have you seen the timeline put together? I doubt it is canon, but:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ti ... jor_events

The Valyrian only reach Westros 200 years before they invade (why wait that long?), or 100 years after the Doom. Within 130ish years after invading, the last Dragon dies. It has been ~300 years since the invasion.

The Long Night is about 10,000 years ago.

The structure built to defend against the others is the Wall, and structures with similar ages. There are few structures in Westros built to defend against Dragons, as they where a relatively recent event that "flamed out" quickly.

Issues I'd have include the slow speed of Valyrian conquest. But I could easily see castles being built to defend against local problems, rather than remote ancient myths.

Wasn't there a line in the last book where

Spoiler:

by **Izawwlgood** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:56 pm UTC

Sartorius wrote: Any way that a man has gained power, these females are gaining power as well, from brawn to brains.

Except there have been a handful of characters from the past described as pretty awesome; Arya apparently takes after Ned's sister Lyanna in personality and temperament. I think more than anything, these books are simply a window into yet more tumultuous times in the world; looking over the timeline, it doesn't seem like there's been true peace for a long long time.

by **Amarantha** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:50 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Czhorat wrote: that rape scenes are often eroticized

What? Has the person read the books? The rape scenes are horrific, terrifying, and lead us to feel nothing but revulsion and sympathy for those who are raped.

I don't know about "often", but Dany's wedding night certainly qualifies.

by **Izawwlgood** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:55 pm UTC

Amarantha wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Czhorat wrote: that rape scenes are often eroticized

What? Has the person read the books? The rape scenes are horrific, terrifying, and lead us to feel nothing but revulsion and sympathy for those who are raped.
I don't know about "often", but Dany's wedding night certainly qualifies.

Ehhh... It's different from most, but I wouldn't say it was eroticized. Maybe 'less awful-ized', but I think 'horrible horrible despair' is the sentiment we're supposed to derive from her.

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