xkcd

by **Ibarra** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:19 pm UTC

Lucid Dreamers 2

It is a format wherein both town and scum can send in any Night Action every Night - barring game-breaking actions.
Only one action per category may be executed per Night. If many actions of the same category are executed, none of the actions will succeed. Categories include protecting, investigating, killing, etc.

Notes:
Scum can kill and do an action per Night. They also have a one-shot absolute roleblock.
Actions may only resolve at Night. There are some exceptions to this rule.

Dreaming (Alive):
2. Lorenz - Dreamer - Survived - Day 2
5. webby - Dreamer - Survived - Day 2

Woke Up (Dead):
4. seguable - Dreamer - Lynched - Day 1
3. Silknor - Dreamer - Nightkilled - Night 1
1. Gopher of Pern - Nightmare - Lynched - Day 2

Going to Bed (Replacements):
1. n/a

Due to the less amount of players, the roles have been changed.

by **Ibarra** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:20 pm UTC

Rules:
Game Specific:
1. No gamebreaking actions are allowed.
2. If it is blatantly obvious that the action you are asking for is game-breaking, you will get modkilled.
3. If the mod told you, your action is game-breaking and you still insist on doing it, you will get modkilled.
4. Examples of game-breaking actions:
a. Role Changing
b. Adding Cults
c. Anything else subject to the mod's disgresion.
5. Only one action per category may be executed per Night. If many actions of the same category are executed, none of the actions will succeed.
6. All actions with the exception of some passive actions must be executed during the Night only.
7. All actions must span only one Night/Day phase. There are some exceptions to this rule.

General:
1. Do not quote your role PM or anything the mod gives to you.
2. Do not post screenshots or any sort of factual evidence of private communications, either with the mod or amongst yourselves.
3. Do not edit your posts.
4. Do not talk outside of the thread, unless your role PM allows so. This excludes spoilers in the spoiler thread though.
5. Mod has the final say on any issue. If the mod makes a mistake, feel free to PM him to sort it out.
6. If you need any help, or have questions, or just want to talk in general, feel free to PM the mod.
7. Dead men tell no tales. Dead people may not post in the thread.
8. Blue is my color. Don't use it.

Day:
1. Game starts with a Day Start.
2. Deadlines will be one week tentatively. Extensions may be placed depending on the activity.
3. You may vote someone by using this format: Vote : Player You may not No-Lynch.
4. You may also remove your vote by using this format: Unvote : Player
5. When a player receives more than half of the total votes at any point during the day, that player is automatically lynched.
6. Once a player is lynched, there shall be no posting in the thread. Night will commence shortly.
7. If no one has been lynched, and the deadline has passed, the person with the most votes gets lynched. If there is a tie, the one who reached the tying amount of votes first, is lynched.
8. A player has to remain active, at least one post per 48 hours. If a player has not posted for 48 hours, they will be prodded. This does not included weekends.
9. If the player prodded doesn't respond, a he/she will be replaced.
10. If the player gets prodded three times already and still becomes inactive he/she will be automatically replaced.
11. If no replacement can be found. The player will be modkilled instead.

Night:
1. Night lasts a maximum of 48 hours. It may end early if everyone has submitted an action.
2. Any roles or factions with night actions may choose to use them by PM-ing the mod (see the Role PM for role-specific instructions).
3. Once the deadline for night has passed, all actions not received will count as a No Action.

Roles:
You are a Nightmare.
Apart from the Nightkill, you can also do another Night Action in the limits of the rules that were set.
You also have a One-Shot Absolute Roleblock that cannot be affected by any action.
You win when all Dreamers are dead.

You are a Dreamer.
You may perform any Night Action in the limits of the rules that were set.
You win when all threats to you and your fellow Dreamers are gone.

by **Ibarra** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:28 pm UTC

Role PM's have been sent.
Please confirm in thread.
Also, I'm considering adding a multiple-round system as we only have five players.

by **Silknor** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:01 pm UTC

Confirming!

by **Lorenz** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:35 pm UTC

What a weird dream I had... I clearly remember holding a... sword? maybe a gun? Anyway, it was a weapon of some sort. Crowds were cheering (I don't remember clearly, maybe they were screaming), but were running away. Some of them were crying, but it must have been because of joy. It was clear I had slain the evil beast they were all afraid of... right? I mean, I'm always the hero in my dreams. I no longer had my weapon in hand as I turned around and saw the monster jumping at me. Gladly, a godly voice was heard (or imagined) all over the place, stating

YOU MUST CONFIRM

which was enough to wake me up.

At least I didn't feel the wrath of the creature, but I'm sure I could take it down. So now, I'm trying to go to sleep, thinking all the time

I confirm.... I confirm....

by **Gopher of Pern** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:06 pm UTC

Confirming

by **segueable** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:01 pm UTC

Confirming.

by **Ibarra** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:34 am UTC

4 out of 5 has confirmed. Let's start.

It's been quite some time since the World of Dreams was disturbed, but alas the Nightmare came back.
With no mod to protect them, (since he died last time) the World had no choice but to summon four unsuspecting people who were going to sleep.
In a world where Dreamers can do anything, perhaps killing the Nightmare would be possible.

You wake up in a surreal world. You see four other people with you. A note on the ground says that one of them must be killed. Time to get lynching.

IT IS NOW DAY 1
DEADLINE IS IN SEVEN DAYS.
WITH 5 ALIVE, IT TAKES 3 TO HAMMER.

by **webby** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:03 am UTC

I'm here too!

How do you think we play this? It's actually going to be very different to the last game.

The cautious way to play it is to assign two players (the most suspicious two who we don't lynch) to attempt to take a kill action. That way, scum only gets one nightkill, as opposed to the possibility of two.

This is going to be a short game obviously. If we only have one nightkill, then barring any useful actions occuring, our chances of winning if lynching at random are:

1/5 (we lynch right day 1) + 4/5*1/3 (we lynch right day 2) = 7/15.

So here's an initial idea to get discussion going:
1. We lynch the most suspicious player.
2. The second and third most suspicious players are tasked with obtaining the kill.
3. The other two players do something else. One idea is that one is told to take a roleblock, and the other is told to take a cop, but I think this needs to be thought through more.

Any comments or other ideas? I suspect something with lightning rod might be useful.

by **Gopher of Pern** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:36 am UTC

In addition to 2 players trying the kill, have them target each other. That way, there is no chance that the nightmare can avoid it, if the nightmare is one of the two, as if they don't use their action to kill, then they will get killed themselves.

The other two players should use the cop, and maybe a tracker/watcher? Are they separate action types?

by **Silknor** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:37 pm UTC

Ok I had a long post written analyzing that strategy, but I realized I was overlooking one of the rules. So before I revisit that, I'm going to ask for some mod clarification:

5. Only one action per category may be executed per Night. If many actions of the same category are executed, none of the actions will succeed.

This rule brings up a few questions:
1. Is the inherent Nightmare NK in the same category as other NKs? Same question for their one-shot roleblock.
2. Are all night actions that can cause death in the same category as a standard NK? Or is something like Paranoid Gun Owner (kill a random person targeting you that night), or Poisoner (inflict target with poison, they die at the end of the next night), in a different catagory?
3. What does executed mean? Is it, "would be successful if not for this rule"? Eg. if there are two NKs on different people, and one of the targets is protected by a doctor, does the other NK succeed? If all but one action within a category gets roleblocked, does the remaining one succeed, or is it disabled by Rule 5?

by **Lorenz** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:03 am UTC

webby's plan, even with GoP's change isn't foolproof. There's so much that can go on that it's hard to actually make plans like that, but I guess if we keep fixing it we'll end up with something good.
First observation. Someone would have to use a re-director power, as scum (if bottom 2) could hold their kill and redirect the other persons kill.

I've been trying to make plans as to what kind of actions we should take, but I find that actually discussing them always opens up a door for scum to use it against us. ~~I am also considering the possibility of no-lynching~~ and I no longer am after re-reading the rules.

The best I've come up with is: 2 most suspicious players take a kill(on each other), one of the less suspicious players takes a re-director (bus-driver or something similar) and the other one takes a cop. Assuming scum is in the bottom two, they can no longer redirect the kill, and if they don't use a kill they die themselves. They could take a role-block but the end result would be the same (no extra kills). If scum is one of the less suspicious persons, then they can't take an extra kill, the worst they can do is add some confusion. I don't see any immediate flaws with this plan, but I'm sure we can do better.

by **Ibarra** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:26 am UTC

Silknor wrote:1. Is the inherent Nightmare NK in the same category as other NKs? Same question for their one-shot roleblock.

No they are not. Both are considered separate. Also note that if scum does get targeted by a restriction/redirect, only the non-factional action will be affected.

Silknor wrote:2. Are all night actions that can cause death in the same category as a standard NK? Or is something like Paranoid Gun Owner (kill a random person targeting you that night), or Poisoner (inflict target with poison, they die at the end of the next night), in a different catagory?

Well since I already revealed the categories in the previous game, yes they are. If the action sent in is vague in category, the mod will classify it to which category it fits best to.

Silknor wrote:3. What does executed mean? Is it, "would be successful if not for this rule"? Eg. if there are two NKs on different people, and one of the targets is protected by a doctor, does the other NK succeed? If all but one action within a category gets roleblocked, does the remaining one succeed, or is it disabled by Rule 5?

If two or more actions of the same category can be successfully executed (no protects or restrictions) then the actions will fail.
If only one of the action can be successfully executed (the others are blocked, etc.) then the one action will succeed.

by **segueable** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:52 pm UTC

If all but the least suspicious person submits a kill action chosen literally at random (or as close to random as possible) by that person, and the least suspicious person submits a cop action on one of them, scum has a 3/4 shot at a double kill. If scum tries to use roleblocking but happens to be targeted, we win.

A less chancy but more dependent on our ability to pick scum within the top two idea is to have two people kill the most suspicious, and have someone submit a roleblock on that person. In this case, the target of all these actions cannot double kill.

If everybody submits a kill action, scum cannot possibly double kill. We gain no information from night actions, however.

If we have 1 roleblock 2 roleblock 3 roleblock 4 roleblock 1, scum also cannot possibly double kill. We still gain no information from night actions.

Other plans I can think of seem to have either worse odds or allow scum to double kill if they're smart enough.

by **Lorenz** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:59 pm UTC

The all role blocks allow scum to submit a kill plus their own kill, so that's a double kill.

Incidentally, this are the categories.

[Protect] [Investigate] [Kill] [Redirect] [Copy] [Communicate] [Conceal] [Falsify] [Upgrade] [Restrict] [Convert Action]

by **Gopher of Pern** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:04 pm UTC

The only way to ensure scum can't double kill is with the all kill routine, as scum only has the 1 roleblock. And that strategy, quite frankly, is boring, and against the point of this game. At this stage, I think it might be better if everyone conceals their actions, as anything we might come up with can be manipulated by scum.

by **webby** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:41 am UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:The only way to ensure scum can't double kill is with the all kill routine, as scum only has the 1 roleblock. And that strategy, quite frankly, is boring, and against the point of this game. At this stage, I think it might be better if everyone conceals their actions, as anything we might come up with can be manipulated by scum.

Hmm, I can see this going horribly wrong. For example, the obvious thing to do is to get a redirect/bus driver, cops being useless because else scum has a good chance of two nightkills and ending the game on night 1. But if something is obvious like that, there's a good chance two townies will get it and neither will work.

I think it may be a good idea to say which category we're going to choose, but not exactly what we're going to choose within the category or who we're going to use it on. It may help the scum choose who to roleblock, but I think that the fact that we won't be accidentally roleblocking each other more than makes up for this. Thoughts?

by **Gopher of Pern** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:30 am UTC

With that method, it will be obvious to the scum who to roleblock, and they could easily get a second kill. If a town member chooses a kill action, they will get roleblocked and killed, and then scum will choose another target to kill. If no town member chooses a kill, scum have the free kill. Of course, this is assuming everyone is being truthful about what action they will take, excluding scum. But if everyone is not truthful, then it just turns into the scenario I mentioned earlier, only with more wine. Which actually might be beneficial, as then scum will have no idea who's doing what action, but we might still tread on each others toes.

by **segueable** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:31 am UTC

If we all pick two categories, one of which is kill and one undisclosed, and flip for which category we choose, we have a 7/8 chance of getting at least one kill action, 3/8 for at least 2, and 1/8 for 3 (this all excludes scum's action). Scum then has a roleblock and another action (which may or may not be successful for various reasons) to deal with. This gives some weight to kill actions, and hopefully makes it unclear to anyone what scum's best choice would be until after the fact, while still allowing for a little bit of extra strategy.

by **Gopher of Pern** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:00 am UTC

So, you basically are saying we each do our own action, but everyone does a coin flip, and if it turns up heads, do a kill action? With a 3/8 chance of a kill happening, regardless of what scum do, that seems pretty bad odds to me. It is possible the kill action will kill the scum, or do nothing, but unlikely.

Just clarifying, say that 3 players all choose to kill. The scum roleblocks one, and someone protects against another. Does that mean the last one will go through?

If so, even everyone killing may not be foolproof.

by **Lorenz** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:07 am UTC

Yeah, I don't like the coin-flip either. I think I'm going to have to agree with GoP, and say that everyone concealing their actions will be the best idea. Scum is powerful enough to turn most (if not all) open strategies to their favor. (And yes, it is more fun this way).

@GoP:How would someone protect against a kill, if their action was a kill? I agree though, scum can protect from one kill, block another and that leaves only 1 kill going through (Plus the extra scum kill).

by **Gopher of Pern** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:47 am UTC

There will be 4 players, so 3 with a kill, and 1 to protect. Along with a scum roleblock, it is possible for there to be 2 kills if we choose the everyone kills plan, as the scum can easily protect themselves, roleblock another player, which will leave a kill open, if scum did not roleblock the player targetting them.

by **Ibarra** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:29 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:Just clarifying, say that 3 players all choose to kill. The scum roleblocks one, and someone protects against another. Does that mean the last one will go through?

Yes

by **Silknor** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:42 pm UTC

I have been going through all the scenarios I can think of and haven't been able to come up with a public, non-random, system that the scum cannot exploit for a likely win. The special roleblock and the information advantage are too much to overcome if we have a set list of actions.

Unfortunately, I also think that any hidden actions ensures that (if the game is still going), we'll be faced with massive amounts of wine on day 2. I am not sure how to remedy this. Since there will most likely be 3 people alive (if 2 kills occur the game is over by default, and 0 seems unlikely), we can't reasonably expect use the one action of each type catagory since there's so many possible actions, various roleblocks and redirects, and so few people alive.

by **Lorenz** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:34 pm UTC

Looks like we've hit a dead end. I don't have any real scum-tells on anyone, but we better take discussion elsewhere now. I can't think of any actual content so I'll ask a few questions.

1.- What were your dreams last night?
2.- How do you feel about having nightmares, do you enjoy them?
3.- If you were scum, what power would you use at night?

Vote: segueable

4.- what do you think about that vote?

I shall be answering those questions myself shortly.

by **segueable** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:47 pm UTC

I think that it would be bad to lynch me, as I'm not scum, but don't really know what to say about it since you haven't given a reason for your vote. I also think given how few players we have, it's a bad idea to just vote for someone straight up without any reasons given.

By the way, I figure if anyone who takes a kill action poisons instead of outright kills, we can delay friendly fire for a night.

by **Lorenz** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:18 am UTC

Well, I got some time to answer my own questions right now.

1.- I had quite a fun dream last night, I was link (from zelda), but the game was Diablo. King Lazarus was Ganondorf, and that's mostly what I remember... but I kicked ass.
2.- I do like nightmares, as I manage to realize I'm sleeping most times. Usually by being shot or something, but nothing happening to me.
3.- (Yes, I realize the wine this question introduces, but wth.) I think a kill would be the best option. If nobody else uses a kill good for me, if somebody uses a kill on me then I'm saved. Of course, this could change with blocks/protects etc... but seems like the best choice.
4.- I like voting.

@segueable: The vote is just random, and I don't see how it's a bad idea.

@segueable: If someone poisons though, how will we know if the action went through or was cancelled?

by **Gopher of Pern** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:02 am UTC

If 2 people claim posion actions, then it got cancelled. I wouldn't worry if it went through at all, as there wont be a second night to use the poison, unless something really weird happens tonight.

Vote: Lorenz

As they like nightmares. It is also coming up to the weekend, with the lack of activity that brings, with the deadline right afterwards.

by **webby** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:44 am UTC

Hmm, I wanted to move onto scumhunting, but nobody really stands out as significantly more scummy or more townie than everyone else. Something I didn't appreciate before I read back through is that Ibarra seems to have said that the factional nightkill is unblockable and unredirectable.

GoP seems like he normally does, maybe slightly townie because he genuinely seems to be trying to be helpful, Lorenz I usually think is scummy but I don't here and I have no idea whether that's a good thing or not. The other two I haven't played with before and they don't really stand out either way so far.

I'm going to come back to this later, I certainly don't want to vote for someone who already has a vote on them yet.

by **Ibarra** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:42 am UTC

Vote Count:
seguable (1) - Lorenz
Lorenz (1) - Gopher of Pern
Not Voting (6) - seguable, webby, Silknor

DEADLINE IS IN LESS THAN 30 MIN.
WITH FIVE ALIVE, IT TAKES THREEE TO HAMMER

by **webby** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:04 am UTC

32 minutes until deadline by my reckoning. I don't have much time here, quick choice between Lorenz vs seguable, I'm going to pick seguable because I think Lorenz has acted reasonably townie.

Vote: seguable

by **Lorenz** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:22 am UTC

I had almost forgotten about this, and I don't like that the lynch will probably be lead by my random vote. I guess the scummiest person for me right now is GoP, as they accused me for answering my own questions, without answering them himself. If someone is online and wants to vote GoP I'll follow.

by **Ibarra** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:48 am UTC

Final Vote Count of the Day:
seguable (2) - Lorenz, webby
Lorenz (1) - Gopher of Pern
Not Voting (2) - seguable, Silknor

seguable has been lynched.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The day was quiet. No one did anything much.
Suddenly, there was a small accusation, and then another one.
Though small, these two were the only things they had.

The winning side wanted seguable gone, which was sad as he was a Dreamer.
But they didn't know that until they threw the Bolt of Truth to him. Oh well.
seguable - Dreamer - Lynched - Day 1

IT IS NOW NIGHT 1. ACTIONS MUST BE SENT IN 48 HOURS.

by **Ibarra** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:01 pm UTC

All actions have been sent in.
Day 2 has started.

The body of Silknor was found the next day. As per regular protocol, the struck it with the Bolt of Truth.
The resulting information though was a disappointment.
Silknor - Dreamer - Nightkilled - Night 1

IT IS NOW DAY 2.
DEADLINE IS IN 7 DAYS.
WITH 3 ALIVE, IT TAKES 2 TO HAMMER.

by **Lorenz** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:14 pm UTC

Well, at least everyone still alive voted, so we have some information on all of us. I tried to be clever with my night action, but it seems to have done nothing. I'll claim but I need GoP to claim first, as my action would have been affected by his.

Waiting for night to come will not be a good plan, as scum is too powerful. We need to claim and figure out who to lynch from there.

by **Gopher of Pern** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:12 pm UTC

Funny. I copped Webby last night. I discovered he is a dreamer. That would mean that you are the Nightmare, Lorenz.

Vote: Lorenz

by **Lorenz** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:33 pm UTC

I coppied GoP's action towards himself. I got no result. GoP must be lying.

Vote: Gopher of Pern

by **Lorenz** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

And how convenient, for someone who already knows every-bodies roles to have used a cop. What was your decision on using a cop GoP?

My decision on copying the action was that
1) scum would use a kill
2) a copy would be counted as a different action than a kill
so, if only one kill went through, it was likely by scum, so they'd be killed back.

by **Gopher of Pern** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:50 pm UTC

My decision on using a cop was simple: If I survived, I would instantly know who the scum were. And It worked. I didn't think anyone else would use the cop action.

The fact that you 'waited' for someone else to claim just cements it even further.

by **Lorenz** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:54 pm UTC

But using a cop, at best, would let you end in this scenario, were it's all up to webby to decide who to lynch. It's a terrible choice and an easy scum-claim, as they know all the alignments already. Also, why did you cop webby and not me? wasn't I more suspicious to you? Isn't that why you voted me?

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