[S] Smalltown Mafia: Werewolf Wins!

[a-wan]

I just saw this:

Lorenz, you are Tony the Thief. You rob people ... For as long as you remain living, that player will lose their ability and become a vanilla role (factional abilities remain).

I'm only pointing it out so that people know that Lorenz stealing my power is not what prevented the mafia kill.

As for Boomfrog being the WW, we don't have to lynch him today to find out. If he is the WW, then Lataro is his number one target (werewolf-Boomfrog loses tonight if he doesn't kill Lataro), and nothing can stop a werewolf-Boomfrog from hitting his target, because the only one who can stop the WW from hitting his target is the bus driver.

Thirdkoopa has done nothing to convince me he is not scum, so I'm eager to see what he has to post. He's still my number one candidate for WW.

One more mod question:

If the bus driver targets the WW and the person the WW targets, does the WW kill himself?

[Lataro]

The reason I claimed my target is simple.

All indications are that it went though successfully, and thus, from my perspective, him not dying N2 and me surviving meant one of two things.

1. I'd be informed that Lorenz targeted me, and would report it promptly.
2. I wouldn't be informed of anything, it wouldn't kill him, and I'd know that roband RB'ed me, and would say as much as well.

At this point, it really wouldn't matter, in fact, I'd say go ahead and lynch me, because you'd have scum in the pocket for sure in whoever stopped the kill. I already knew in advance from asking the mod, that BF cannot use his ability to redirect actions to or from himself, so his power is completely moot in effecting mine. There was absolutely nothing to lose by making my intentions clear.

Ignoring all that, as it is only a distant second benefit to my real goal, which is to make it so that for the most part, BF can be ignored for discussion purposes (as a lynch choice), and we can focus on other people. By making it clear that BF will die tonight at my hands, it frees up all the petty discussion revolving around him that seems to be taking place regardless. At this point, there is literally nothing he can say that will change my mind on him. He has made too many scummy plays IMO. Taking it all into consideration, he could tell me the sky is blue and I'd call him a liar. Thus, I see no reason in discussing his situation, it is made clear, people exist that can stop me, namely, roband, lorenz, the WW kill apparently, and lynching me.

Does the poison kill process before the WW kill?

If that is a no, then the WW can not stop me, leaving the blockers, and a lynch.

If I am lynched, then frankly, whatever. I have made my points clearly, and stand by them, if the majority decides to lynch me, to save BF, then so be it. I'd rather prefer that over the wine of a blocker stopping me, since I'd really have no choice but to lock my vote on that person, and effectively end any real interest in the game on my part til they are lynched if that route is taken.

My stance on vig kills is not that they shouldn't be discussed, simply that one holding the kill shouldn't listen to the influence of others in picking their target. I never said anything or implied anything about not disclosing my targets after the fact before the kill resolved, I simply saw absolutely no reason or benefit to doing so before the first of two stacks of poison were applied.

Cleared up for ya?

[Thirdkoopa]

My lord there's a lot of walls despite there being such few posts so far, but I'll still be contributing more. I'm really sorry and I do have a hard time with newer mafia communities getting into the swing of things. To prove that I am reading...

FoS: GoP
You just basically parroted Lorenz with your reasons for voting mieulium.

Vote: BF
You basically worded your statement and made it look like you didn't want a-wan to be RB'd.
Then you went off using a Relativist Fallacy to say I''m suspicious because I didn't think a-wan wasn't suspicious.

FoS Scumbuddy, Vote Town or Scumbuddy or FoS Scum, get lucky as either SK or Town?

I think this was the only FoS on GoP. I'm having a hard time reading this one atm. I'll have to do a post analysis over dead players WEEEE JOYOUS FUN.

Thirdkoopa: Also very lurky. Possibly overly concerned about the slbub/Lataro sitiuation, entertaining the idea of lynching a seeming townie to clear the wine.
SCUMMIER

A seeming Townie? Considering it was D1 and we use our info there (which is why that day took until deadline) I don't see anything about this.

Very lurky's been explained several times. Frankly, Smalltown is just a pain to think over strategically at times.

BoomFrog, I think you should tell us who you targeted even though you were RB'd.

The deaths leaves us with 6 - 2 - 1.
If we lynch incorrectly today that's 5 - 2- 1.
Worse case scenario, assuming two NKs on town - 3 - 2- 1.
Basically if we don't lynch scum/WW correctly today, it may be difficult for town to win.

Three NK's assuming Lataro's kill on BF hits him as town actually. On the other hand, our deaths can get rather lucky as shown by last night.

Anyway, If Roband and Lataro are town then we had two town to decide between D1 and mostly town leading the lynch. That means real scum have simply been lurking and laughing about it. Likely candidates are anyone who didn't vote yesterday or had a bad reason for voting: Thirdkoopa, weiyaoli (although weiyaoli at least has some excuss, he isn't posting much in any game.)

...what

GoP wasn't lurking. I'm not going to say anything on Weiyaoli's end, but isn't this pretty much WIFOM?

Thirdkoopa has done nothing to convince me he is not scum, so I'm eager to see what he has to post. He's still my number one candidate for WW.

Be more elaborate, sir. I don't quite see how. Maybe it's the lack of not being use to the Meta here + Being very busy at the time, which is unfortunate because I actually do like this community so far.

And WW candidate? While I don't mind scumhuting for a Serial-Killer, it's easier said than done, especially considering the average SK/WW can just blend in with the Town and not care who they're bussing just as long as they don't kill too much scum (Since they want an actual chance at winning)

Know this due to playing SK before.

And finally, on Lataro's explanation, I respect that but vig targets are still something you should allow to discuss. In the end, you do hold the gun but allowing people to discuss can gather more information, especially as flips happen.

[BoomFrog]

Control of the kill decision will be randomly distributed to one of you each night

@a-wan: You are misconstruing some of the mechanics of the game. The one to execute the Mafia kill is determined randomly by the mod. Thus a possible scenario is that GoP was randomly selected to execute the kill and was stopped by the WW killing him. The other two possibilities are that mpolo blocked the kill or Roband RBed me and I was the mafia killer. My point being don't discount that Mpolo could be any kind of scum still.

That player will not be able to carry out any actions that night.

FYI I can't be the WW because Robands RB blocks the WW kill as well.

If the bus driver targets the WW and the person the WW targets, does the WW kill himself?

I asked the mod this by PM and he said yes. I didn't want to reveal this in thread because it makes me a target for the WW. In fact even if I don't get poisoned tonight I expect to be torn to shreds.

2. I wouldn't be informed of anything, it wouldn't kill him, and I'd know that roband RB'ed me, and would say as much as well.

Ahh, this explains your back-up plan. If you are the Mafia selected to carry out the kill then you will claim Roband RBed you so you couldn't poison me. It wouldn't hold water, but at least I understand your thinking now. I am back to being convinced Lataro is scum. I'd rather lynch the WW today but a guaranteed mafia is better then a maybe WW.

Vote Lataro

I followed a-wan yesterday.

What was your reason for choosing A-wan?

I can't be WW, there was a WW kill last night, and you know that I roleblocked you.

Wow, are YOU the WW? That would be... unexpected.

Wait, this is assuming that the WW kill is like the mafia kill in that you have to give up your ability to do it?
I looked back and can't find the confirmation on the mafia side of that, let alone the WW side. Anyone else know?

Also, does the roleblock stop the WW from killing? I can't find this info

This feels to me like genuine ignorance. I'm pretty sure Roband isn't the WW which means he town. Not that I expect this revelation to cause him to think I'm town. But Roband, can you see why I thought your initial vote on Lorenz was scummy? That's what started our animosity.

[roband]

My vote on Lorenz was very much an early vote, in a day where I wasn't getting much of a read on anyone (even towards the end of the day!).

My view of Lorenz has changed completely.

Take that as you will.

[Lataro]

And finally, on Lataro's explanation, I respect that but vig targets are still something you should allow to discuss. In the end, you do hold the gun but allowing people to discuss can gather more information, especially as flips happen.

Nice opinion on vig's. Mine's different.

Very clearly stated at the start in fact as different. Very clearly stated that it has always been what it is in every game I've been in, regardless of any alignment or role I personally have. I never said people can't discuss it, just that I will completely and utterly ignore all suggestions when I made any decisions, for reasons very clearly spelled out. Anti town have opinions on who a vig should kill. They tend to try and steer a vig to help them. Town usually is passive and fractured on who to kill. The anti town blow someone's name up in "informal votes" and the vig kills town stupidly doing the bidding of the mafia because they were too weak to make a call themselves and listened to the "majority".

Feel free to play a vig your own way when you are one, this is mine, and absolutely nothing will change my view on it.

blah blah blah don't kill me!

Vote: Guy who wants to kill me

Excellent move! Very unpredictable!

[a-wan]

@a-wan: You are misconstruing some of the mechanics of the game. The one to execute the Mafia kill is determined randomly by the mod. Thus a possible scenario is that GoP was randomly selected to execute the kill and was stopped by the WW killing him. The other two possibilities are that mpolo blocked the kill or Roband RBed me and I was the mafia killer. My point being don't discount that Mpolo could be any kind of scum still.

I guess I read it differently. My understanding is that one person will be selected randomly to have the final say on who to kill, but that didn't mean that that person also has to carry out the kill. Let's just clear that up then.

Does the mafia member who is selected to have the final say on who to kill also have to make the kill?

I've got more to say, but I have something else to take care of first and I'll come back and post. I'm hoping Misnomer starts answering questions soon and how this one is answered might swing my decision one way or the other.

[a-wan]

Seeing as Misnomer is not answering questions lately, I've read the descriptions of powers carefully and I'll operate on my interpretations until or unless Misnomer comes in and says my interpretation wrong.

For the issue of roband's RB blocking the WW, I think it does. Compare:

roband, you are Otto the Party Animal....Each night, you may PM me the name of another player. That player will not be able to carry out any actions that night.

to

Lorenz, you are Tony the Thief. ... Each night, you may PM me with the name of another player. For as long as you remain living, that player will lose their ability and become a vanilla role (factional abilities remain).

Clearly, if roband could not stop the WW, then it would have mentioned something about factional abilities or WW specifically. Since it didn't, then, as long as this interpretation is correct, Boomfrog is not the WW.

Now, for the Mafia, we have this:

You are Mafia, along with X and Y. In addition to your public abilities, each night you may communicate with each other via PM, and one of you may carry out the Mafia kill. The player carrying out the kill will be unable to use their public ability that night. Control of the kill decision will be randomly distributed to one of you each night, although you are encouraged to come to an agreement on the decision collectively.

The wording here suggests that mafia gets to decide who carries out the kill. They do not get to decide who has the final say. If I am right about this, it also seems clear that Boomfrog was very obstinate that he was right about how the mechanics work, but that would have been made clear to him last night had he been mafia, so, as long as my interpretation is right on this, then Boomfrog is probably not mafia either. I guess there's a small chance that he's mafia and has the mechanics messed up, but I'm not going to buy that he was fake misunderstanding this, so don't try to sell that one to me. And I'm only giving it a small chance that he's mafia and misunderstanding because that seems like something that would have gotten cleared up last night, since the mafia team would probably want to have that quite clear when executing their kill.

All of this puts Lataro, Ibarra, and roband at the top of my list for mafia. In fact, what Thirdkoopa pointed out about Ibarra seems right on the money. Why FoS someone and vote someone else? You do that because you know GoP is scum, and you know there's a good chance that he gets taken out by the WW so you've put some distance between you and someone that will be revealed to be scum very shortly. Between Lataro and roband, I think Lataro's description of roband fits in this situation--he's more of a puppy, but Lataro's full court press on Boomfrog, while almost convincing me to let him and Boomfrog settle it between them, feels like scum trying to take out town.

At this point I'm leaning heavily towards voting Lataro. If he's telling the truth about who he poisoned and I'm right about BF, then we've saved a town and killed scum. At this point, killing a mafia-Lataro is as good as killing WW since we likely end up with two kills tonight under either scenario.

You know what? I think I just convinced myself.

Vote: Lataro

BTW, Ibarra, I'm still interested in your claim. I think you're the only one who hasn't claimed and I can't see any reason why you wouldn't.

[weiyaoli]

I followed a-wan because although I was getting a towny feel from the quick glance I took from his posts yesterday, I felt that his role was still so dangerous that by following him, I can firstly see if he targeted anyone (if he was lying about not planning to target anyone) or secondly be able to back up his statement of not visiting anyone if someone claims that they were visited by him.

@BF, why do you feel roband is the strongest person that you feel is not scum? I was thinking that since he blocked you, (the only chance of saving GoP) that meant he wasn't scum, but then I realized that this is also true for mpolo since you are the only chance of saving him too.

Speaking of a-wan:
I think I agree with most of what a-wan says about his role, especially early on in a game. It doesn't make sense for mafia to use it, since it is only a gain for WW and loss for both town and mafia (since 1 town for 1 scum, even a power role is win for town).

I don't know. This game still feels a little bit broken. Lataro gained extra information that other people don't have and still kept his vote on slbub. I'm not sure how much information slbub gave away in his spoiler in the discussion thread, but if slbub flips town tomorrow, I don't see how we can justify not lynching Lataro, so I would like to see Lataro's explanation on this.

What do you mean by the bit in bold?

I don't really understand his point on roband. He spends a whole post talking about how he has reasons that roband is not the WW, but only gives a reason for (his rash and bold play). Sorry if I just didn't understand the point you were trying to make about roband, but why do you feel that roband is not the WW?

a-wan is the L-1 vote on mieu. There is also repeated reasoning with "more experienced players have done X" which is something I've noticed but I guess it's reasonable enough, but the weird bit for this was it given as a reasoning behind wanting to change his vote for mieu.

Posting now whilst I'm online.

[Ibarra]

post from phone
i visited mpolo and had no results
my reasons for visiting him as that he was the doctor and scum would likely target him

will hopefully do a proper post after i get a proper pc

[a-wan]

What do you mean by the bit in bold?

I've been trying not to let this influence me, and it mostly hasn't. This is what slbub was modkilled over. I'll say what I think I can without breaking the game. Apparently, slbub made a post that was a spoiler to a different game. His post apparently made reference to this other game in a way that was also a spoiler to any other game he was in (given that he was town in that game and just got lynched and he flipped town in this game as well, think along the lines of "I'm always town, but people always think I'm scum", or whatever, it could have been anything). Lataro, read the post and reamed him over it. The matter was discussed with Misnomer and Misnomer decided that it wasn't enough to break the game as long as both of them pretended it didn't happen. Afterwards, Lataro kept his vote on slbub, and slbub decided to vote for Lataro based on the fact that he kept his vote on slbub after reading the spoiler. What I believe on the matter is somewhere along the spectrum of {slbub's post wasn't truly that revealing about his role in other current games though it could be misinterpreted to be revealing} to {Lataro was already leaning strongly toward voting for slbub (as many people were--I was and I wasn't even playing yet) and nothing had happened in the game to change his mind, so the only honest thing to do was to keep his vote there, because that's what he would have done had he not read that spoiler}. So that's that. It shouldn't influence our play, and I only mentioned it at the time because I was concerned that maybe the game should be reset. My vote on Lataro just now is because he seems so determined to kill Boomfrog. My read on Boomfrog is that he is town (the RB means he's not WW, and he seems to be misunderstanding things that mafia should understand), so, as I said earlier, that points to Lataro, roband, and Ibarra, who have been trying to get him killed.

As for roband, the truth is that I keep going back and forth on him for WW. The problem is that he keeps linking with Lataro and I don't know why he would do that as WW. It's that roband's style of play fits very well for WW whether or not he is one. He challenged me on it, and I backed off some. WW has been the most desirable kill this whole game, but at the moment, mafia with a vig kill is as dangerous as WW, so I have no problem voting for Lataro over trying to find the WW, which should be harder. But I do think that the best move for WW-roband would have been to RB Boomfrog and kill the paranormal investigator, so I'm happy to go after roband tomorrow. Thirdkoopa's last post put me slightly more at ease, but that may just be the actual scum hunting he was doing, which a WW would do as well.

There is also repeated reasoning with "more experienced players have done X" which is something I've noticed but I guess it's reasonable enough, but the weird bit for this was it given as a reasoning behind wanting to change his vote for mieu.

Here I was saying that I was vacillating because more experienced players were defending/ignoring her. I went into detail about why they were defending/ignoring her to either convince myself I should follow their lead, or see whether or not I thought they might be doing it for scummy reasons. When I finished it seemed likely enough that their reasons were scummy that I had talked myself into letting my vote stand.

The truth is that Lataro and roband have been pinging me as scummy the whole game and so I've had an internal debate about whether to trust my instinct or let reason prevail. I've tried to include both in my posts, but I've usually erred on the side of caution (reason). At one point, I had a whole post written up about why roband seemed like mafia (based on his noncommital analysis where almost no one looked scummy to him), but then didn't post it. At this point I'm leaning towards no on mafia but still a definite maybe on WW.

[roband]

But I do think that the best move for WW-roband would have been to RB Boomfrog and kill the paranormal investigator, so I'm happy to go after roband tomorrow.

WW can do that? Legitimate question, not me putting myself in BF's position of "not understanding the role, therefore can't the that role" in you view (which I think is silly btw).
Also, this is only winey if you suggest that it is. Let's not get ourselves back to where we were before when I was talking about the WW, ok?

I honestly suspected that WW lost their ability when they chose to kill. This is why I was saying that we needed to be cautious of who seemed to have not performed an action the previous night. In this case, a-wan is definitely not WW, as he was followed and didn't visit anyone. Unless weiy and a-wan are scum buddies.
I'll need a reread of D1 to consider that.

[a-wan]

For the last time--WW cannot be tracked, so Ibarra and weiy cannot clear someone of being WW (as much as I would like it at the moment). There will be plenty of time to WW hunt tomorrow, I'm hoping.

roband, if you're not the WW, all you have to do is find the real one and RB him. I don't expect I'll be voting for you today.

[a-wan]

You are the Werewolf! Each night, in addition to using your public ability, you can choose a player to kill. Because you transform into a wolf to carry out your kill, nobody will even be able to see you do it (your kill action will be invisible to watchers, trackers etc.)! You win when everybody else is dead, or there is no way to prevent this from happening. Good luck!

I understand playing with people's heads is part of what makes this game fun, but if you're not WW, you'll have a watertight defense if you can manage to RB him. In fact, I'd say you and BF are the top targets for the WW.

[roband]

Ah crap. Normal game head keeps slipping on. Sorry for that.

If I could find the WW, I wouldn't be RBing him, I'd be voting him!

[a-wan]

Then tell me why Lataro is not mafia. If Lataro is mafia then killing him is as good as killing the WW right now.

Or tell me how Boomfrog is mafia. You've already proved he's not WW.

[roband]

Well at least that saves me re-reading D1 AGAIN!

Anyway, current thoughts off the top of my head.

Lataro - seeming townie enough to me.
Ibarra - little bit FOSy because of his FOS on GoP but not voting him.
a-wan - seems townie, gets the rules straight and good at explaining them.
thirdkoopa - good analysis today but low activity yesterday. New player being new, or new scum being nervous? Neutral for now.
Boomfrog - still think he's scummy, would be happy to see him lynched or NK'd tonight.

Is there anyone else? If so, they need to post more because I forgot about them.

Lorenz! Lorenz seems townie enough.

So basically, I think that boomfrog and Ibarra are the remaining scum and I have no idea who the WW is. WW is gonna be hard to find, as they will play the game as a normal townie, and just NK the most dangerous role to them, during the night.

[a-wan]

But I don't understand. Why does Lataro seem towny to you? Because he agrees with you that BF is scummy? Ibarra has been going after BF too, so why is Ibarra scummy and Lataro is not? I don't understand. Are you trying to convince me that you are more likely to be Lataro's mafia partner than Ibarra? Any explanation is better than what you have.

[roband]

Then tell me why Lataro is not mafia. If Lataro is mafia then killing him is as good as killing the WW right now.

Or tell me how Boomfrog is mafia. You've already proved he's not WW.

Lataro just doesn't feel like mafia to me in this game. He's made similar choices to me.

Your controllingness is worrying me a little. It seems a little bit like, "they all trust me, let's see how far I can push them into thinking I'm being strong town" when you're actually WW

ninja: my last post did not account for your one just before it. I was not made aware you had posted while I was typing mine up.

Responding to this ninja: Ibarra's FOS on GoP is supicious. To say that I am more likely to be Lataro's scum partner than Ibarra would imply that I think Lataro is scummy. I never did that. Are you intentionally twisting my words?

Ibarra is scummy for the FOS on GoP. BoomFrog has seemed most scummy to me throughout the whole game so far, hence my RB on him last night.

[a-wan]

Your controllingness is worrying me a little. It seems a little bit like, "they all trust me, let's see how far I can push them into thinking I'm being strong town" when you're actually WW

The good news is that you, of all people, can test this. If you think I'm WW you can RB me tonight.

Any thoughts on weiyaoli or mpolo?

[roband]

mpolo hasn't posted for more than 2 days

weiy always seems to blend in, in games I've played with him. No particular read one way or the other. Certainly potential WW, but so is everyone.

[weiyaoli]

Ibarra:
First to suggest flirt not so dangerous. Points out how illogical saying he is town when he posted three times. (I think this reflects worse on a-wan as a whole, he's pointing out someone who supported his role as town). Ibarra has been pretty inactive, probably down to his broken PC. I think right now, I don't particularly view his fos on GoP either way, the way that a-wan in particular:

Why FoS someone and vote someone else? You do that because you know GoP is scum, and you know there's a good chance that he gets taken out by the WW so you've put some distance between you and someone that will be revealed to be scum very shortly.

I don't understand why that was scummy. You FoS someone and vote for someone else because you think that the other person that you voted for is more likely to be scum and the fos is to show that you also find the above person suspicious. You're assuming something out of nothing here.

FoS: a-wan

thirdkoopa:
He's been generally quiet, but when he pipes up he does do longer posts. I doon't have a very good read on him at the moment though, he's been too infrequent with his posting.

[a-wan]

I don't understand why that was scummy. You FoS someone and vote for someone else because you think that the other person that you voted for is more likely to be scum and the fos is to show that you also find the above person suspicious. You're assuming something out of nothing here.

I simply thought Thirdkoopa had a point about the fact that no one else had said that GoP was scummy at that point. He had a one-line accusation of GoP when no one else was calling him scummy, then he voted for someone else. It was very clear that no one was going to lynch GoP that night, and it was also somewhat likely that WW would kill GoP so GoP would flip scum and the only person to accuse him would be Ibarra. Looks like a pretty good scum play to me.

Anyways, if you suspect me of being mafia, then you have to support one of three options:

1. GoP, the paranormal investigator, was chosen to carry out the kill last night, even though his role is the only one that can identify WW, who has all the perils that town does to mafia, plus he can NK them as well.
2. Boomfrog, the only person who could have protected GoP from the WW, was chosen to carry out the kill last night.
3. Mafia withheld their kill last night.

So if you suspect me of being mafia, which one is it?

If I'm the WW, well, I don't have an answer for that, because anyone could be the WW. I'm once again backing away from roband as WW, but only because his support of Ibarra being mafia with Boomfrog is highly illogical, which says to me that since I believe Lataro is mafia that roband is his partner and is grasping at someone he can make look scummy. Ibarra was the first person that came to mind since accusations against him were the freshest. Of course, if roband is right then Ibarra was FoSing one scumbuddy while busing the other, which would be awesome.

So as of right now, here's where I stand:

Mafia:
Lataro
roband

Not WW:
Boomfrog
roband
Lataro
mpolo

I'm now fairly convinced at this point of those alignments unless the mod answers questions in a way that makes my logic fall apart. So potential WW are:

Thirdkoopa
Ibarra
Weiyaoli
Lorenz

I guess my next task will be to read through and see which makes most sense to me as WW. I will say right now that Ibarra voting for BF makes sense if Ibarra is WW, since eliminating him would have made killing GoP a sure thing. It would also explain why he might be looking to paint GoP as scum. But, like I said, I'll give all four their fair shake.

[weiyaoli]

Firstly, I'm not sure how GoP definitely not being lynched has anything to do with whether people should FoS them. (If you find someone suspicious, it makes no difference whether they will be lynched or not for fossing) Also, I'm not sure why just because no one else is calling him scummy is therefore a reason that he isn't scummy. Its good scum play yes, but that doesn't make the action scummy in itself. It's fair enough if you disagree with his accusation on GoP, his bandwagon vote on mieu, but your suspicion isn't based on that.

Or, you know, people were saying that you should be roleblocked and power stolen. Why would you carry out the kill when you were very likely to be roleblocked? People could be tracking you (as I did) because your role is so dangerous. You were pretty much the obvious one to be outed the next day. If your scum mates (GoP and X) and X had an important role that they couldn't miss out on. GoP would have been a good choice. The WW isn't as immediate a threat to you, also because if BF isn't scum GoP was dead whatever you decided N1 if BF was RBed or power stolen or decided to protect mpolo instead. I was certainly surprised that the scum kill could have been blocked if GoP was scum killer so scum wouldn't have planned for them losing this kill anyway.

[a-wan]

Are you saying that if you were mafia, finding out who the WW was would not be high on your priority list? It would definitely be the highest thing on my priority list. roband knows this. We were mafia together in the WW+Mafia game. Finding and killing WW was our highest priority. Even if I wanted the extra kills on town from the WW, knowing who it is would still be me highest priority, so that WW could be taken out when he was no longer useful. I guess I'm not imaginative enough to think of a reason why using GoP's power wouldn't be more important than the other powers that could be used.

Of course, now I have to think about this a little, because the scum team I put together is Lataro, roband, and GoP. roband used his power and Lataro claims to have used his, though we can't know. I guess this means that I would have to believe that Lataro would somehow not want to poison someone.

Okay, I'm not as sure as I was before about Lataro with roband. I don't know. So, weiyaoli, if I'm scum, do you have me as WW or as mafia? If mafia, then who's my teammate?

[weiyaoli]

Yes, because if anything else, if BF isn't scum (which I don't believe at the moment), GoP would have been dead from the WW in any case. It's not comparable to the other game with WW+mafia because everyone knows who the werewolf investigator is. This is literally no way around GoP dying unless the WW was RBed last night or BF switches targets. (which obviously he may either decide not to do or is prevented in some way). Therefore from scum's point of view, it wouldn't be implausible that he would be used for the kill, to at least get some use of his role out of the whole thing.I don't think GoP carrying out the kill is that impossible right now.

And, no I'm not sure whether you are scum or WW. I'm suspicious that you may be either, more so now with your recent posts. If you were scum though, I'd say the most likely teammate is probably one of {Lataro, mpolo, lorenz, BF}. Roband is less likely because he wouldn't want to chance blocking BF from saving GoP although it is possible that with a scum team of {roband, GoP, X} that he blocked BF so that either GoP or X can then kill mpolo for sure. I'm leaning more towards WW than mafia right now; can't see any links (except maybe you trying to link yourself to Ibarra early on accidentally or otherwise).

[roband]

The roundabout way in which a-wan has said that boomfrog and mpolo are definitely town worries me.

Firstly because I think he's wrong. My views on boomfrog are clear and mpolo isn't guaranteed to have saved someone from the kill.
Secondly because of the way he says that me and Lataro are scum, and these people aren't WW and these people could be WW. What he doesn't say is "therefore, I am sure that BF and mpolo are town".

This is a possible connection from boomfrog to a-wan, and my thoughts on a-wan earlier added to a link to boomfrog make him suspicious to me as well now.

ninja'd by weiy: how do you see my view of a-wan's links? boomfrog and mpolo

[Lataro]

Right, you ask a question, and completely ignore the answer, not addressing it in any way, shape, or form.

You pretty much say, "It isn't the case that BF just said something in thread to make us think he isn't scum, because scum would know the answer, that's impossible!"

Then because two people think BF are suspicious, you assume they are both scum, and stop looking elsewhere for mafia.

Your vote on me pretty much links you to openly defending BF and making arguments for him, rather than looking for him to defend himself from legitimate suspicion, and reeks of scum that got a good break D1 for replacing a completely useless lurker, and trying to steer the lynch.

Vote: a-wan

Assuming the WW doesn't stop me, assuming their kill processes first that is, I'm feeling good that the mafia will be eliminated D3.

[a-wan]

I was just about to unvote, but I guess that seals the deal for me. My vote stands.

It looks like one way or another, everyone will know who reeks around here tomorrow.

[roband]

With a boomfrog vig kill tonight, I'm happy to vote for a-wan after the last couple of hours.

I want to hear back from Misnomer first though (Where you at bro?) regarding the WW kill timing. If WW is going to kill Lataro tonight, I'd rather lynch BoomFrog (as a-wan no longer has a role, and BF's is dangerous to be left active tonight).

Also, if BoomFrog were to die from a second dose of poisoning tonight, would his bus-drive still happen?

As that could be important. Vanilla a-wan isn't no more of a risk to leave alive than anyone else. But BF's action can hurt us still.

[Lorenz]

Claimed actions (just for quick reference)

Spoiler:

Roband - roleblocks BF
Lataro - posions BF
a-wan - does nothing (confirms block)
BF - switches mpolo and Ibarra (confirms block)
mpolo - protects a-wan
weiyaoli - follows a-wan
Ibarra - visits mpolo
Lorenz - permablocks a-wan
Thirdkoopa (recluse)

About the mafia kill (Spoilered because most parts will probably have been mentioned, but me making the analysis helps me remember and maybe I find something else)

Spoiler:

Roband - Unless scum with BF, he didn't make it. If he is scum however, and made the kill, BF is also scum. It sounds like a risky strategy and one of the trackers could have brought him down, so it's unlikely he performed the kill. If he did, a-wan was successfully protected.
Lataro wouldn't have made it imo, because it can be tested eventually and he would have wanted to use his power.
a-wan making the kill would imply weiyaoli scum. As Ibarra hadn't claimed it seems like a dangerous thing to do, so not likely imo.
BF - Same case as roband. Unlikely.
mpolo - The kill must have been blocked by roband then, which is almost impossible considering the claims.
weiyeaoli - Possible, he claimed following a-wan after a-wan had claimed no action, and I had claimed a block, so it's a safe claim.
Ibarra - Possible, was the last to claim. Mpolo is a safe claim also (no need to confirm anything from anyone else)
Lorenz - would imply a-wan is scumbuddy, also unlikely considering future investigation claims.
Thirdkoopa - Possible, no need to claim anything, and would be the obvious choice for mafia to choose him to carry the kill.
GoP - This is the most interesting case, as I wouldn't have thought the WW would stop the mafia kill. There has been a lot of wine surrounding this, but if mafia knew about this, I don't think he carried out the kill. If mafia didn't know about this, it's very likely he carried out the kill. This leads me to a lot of wine on BF for touching this subject (whether the WW would stop it), but I haven't decided what to make of it.

Given this, it's very likely that both a-wan and mpolo are not mafia.

So, assuming GoP didn't carry out the kill, the most likely candidates for doing so are
Thirdkoopa
Ibarra
Weiyeaoli

I'm having an extermely hard time getting reads on people, and I usually try to base my analysis on votes/actions. It is not working too much either. Umm.. Yeah, I've been trying to make this post for about 45 minutes, and I'm not getting anywhere... Argh... I'll be trying again soon.

[Misnomer]

Apologies for the delay in answering questions. My free time has completely ceased to exist. I should be able to get this game through til the end, but after that I'm going to have to take a break from Mafia.

Is the WW kill affected by Lorenz's or roband's power?

Roband's yes, Lorenz's no.

If someone has been robbed by Lorenz, does that prevent them from being able to execute the mafia kill?

No

If the bus driver targets the WW and the person the WW targets, does the WW kill himself?

Yes

Does the poison kill process before the WW kill?

No

Does the mafia member who is selected to have the final say on who to kill also have to make the kill?

No, they select both the target and the player that carries it out.

Also, if BoomFrog were to die from a second dose of poisoning tonight, would his bus-drive still happen?

Yes


Votals:

Lataro (2): BoomFrog, a-wan
a-wan (1): Lataro

Deadline at 6pm BST, Sunday 25th September

[Lataro]

Re:

GoP carrying the kill out.

Looking over your list Lorenz raises one critically obvious point that I seem to have missed.

scum must have decent powers to have chosen GoP to carry the kill out, if that is indeed what happened. I mean, if I were scum, I'd say, "power that is most useless to us, carry the kill out."

While GoP's power is hardly useless, it's not exactly stellar for mafia. Sure, they want to find the WW, but they also want to be useful.

Assuming I am right in a GoP/BF/a-wan scenario...

BF was pushing for roband not to specifically target a-wan. roband left it pretty strongly implied he was going to target him. They would not have had a-wan carry the kill out, since they didn't want to get blocked.

GoP or BF to carry it out gets interesting. Either way you slice it, GoP was going to but got killed, or BF was going to, but roband decided to block him at the last instant, we'll never know. If I had to make a gut call, I'd say BF had submitted an action to bus GoP and roband, lorenz, or myself, the former two due to their powers, and me due to it being pretty clear I was going to target him from how D1 ended. He got RB'ed though, it fubar'ed the whole deal, he made up a fake claim for targets that sounded townie enough (Protect the doc? really? not knowing GoP was scum, it was pretty much spelled out that BF was GoP's only chance, and that there was near zero percent chance the WW wouldn't kill him N1.) since GoP had come back scum, he didn't want to make it look like he had been trying to save a scum buddy and have the linkage down the line.

As for the kill target, I'd bet it would have been Lorenz, due to his perceived towniness, and the knowledge that he had pretty much locked a-wan down, and a-wan's power could be useful down the road.

That's just what I think went down though. It all seems to fit, and makes a fair bit of sense, from my perspective at least, since I know I am town.

As for the WW, I'm loathe to speculate on it, I'd like to see how N2 goes down before looking at it.

As it stands, I'm pretty sure a-wan and BF are the final scum, and even if the WW kills me before I can kill BF tonight, when a-wan flips scum and I reveal town, you'll all know what to do with BF.

[Lataro]

EBWOP:

Another modly question. Will the poison and mafia NK at least take place at the same time, or is my ability completely worthless if I'm killed tonight?

If it's the case that the mafia kill takes precedence, then of course, BF will need to be RB'ed. If my kill goes though first though, he can be largely ignored.

[BoomFrog]

@BF, why do you feel roband is the strongest person that you feel is not scum? I was thinking that since he blocked you, (the only chance of saving GoP) that meant he wasn't scum, but then I realized that this is also true for mpolo since you are the only chance of saving him too.

Even if it was only 50/50 that I was going to save GoP I really doubt Roband would block me. GoP and Mpolo are the only two reasonable targets for me to protect.

if BF isn't scum (which I don't believe at the moment),

I'm confused by the possible double negative. To be clear, do you think I am scum? Actually...

@weiyaoli, Iberra, Thirdkoopa, mpolo, Lorenz: You should weigh in on the BoomFrog vs Lataro issue. If you think I am scum say so clearly.

I really doubt that A-wan was the target of the kill, there are many much better targets to take out for the Mafia such as a tracker or Mpolo. Assuming Roband is not mafia then it's possible they would not kill Mpolo for fear of my redirection. Although Roband would be a good target as well. So assuming a Lataro, GoP, X team that means that X's power is much more valuable then GoP's. I'll assume that the Mafia did not know that the WW kill would stop their kills execution since that was very unclear. But the only power that Mafia cares about would be Lorenz, he had to use his power N1 because he committed to this action D1. But he has seemed pretty townie and he can clear himself tonight by stealing from someone, if Lataro poisons me and Lorenz steals then Lorenz cannot be Mafia.

So that leaves me going back to the unlikely, that Mpolo really did protect A-wan from the kill.

Spoiler:

Roband - Very Unlikely to be Mafia
weiyeaoli - Possible, he claimed following a-wan after a-wan had claimed no action.
Ibarra - Possible, was the last to claim. Mpolo is a safe claim also (no need to confirm anything from anyone else)
Thirdkoopa - Possible, no need to claim anything, and would be the obvious choice for mafia to choose him to carry the kill.
GoP - Unlikely to have executed the kill unless Lorenz is his scumbuddy.

So, if I do get poisoned and am scum then town will have reduced the mafia to 1 or 0 members and the last member should be easy to find by elimination because of claimed night actions. Therefore the trackers should plan for the worst and assume that I am town a therefore Wei should follow either Ibarra or Thirdkoopa. (Yes trying to follow Thirdkoopa will reveal if he executed the kill or not.) Actually anyone can test if TK executed the kill be trying an action on him, if it fails then you know he didn't execute the kill. Just to check:

If ThirdKoopa is mafia and he executes the kill does he have to give up his untargetability?

[weiyaoli]

Firstly, I think I will:
Vote: a-wan
I'm not sure why he became really defensive after only a FoS. He was really keen to point out how it was so impossible that he was scum.

No, BF I do not believe that you are scum (currently). The only problem I have right now is how hard roband is linking himself to lataro (whether by accident I don't know) that's making me question things slightly.

I think the scum are very very unlikely to have targeted a-wan:
1) He wasn't a very obvious choice for werewolf
2) If he isn't scum, then he wouldn't have targeted anyone else with his flirt. Why would scum target such a person to pick up 1 kill when there would be much much better targets?

[BoomFrog]

No, BF I do not believe that you are scum (currently).

If you don't think I am scum, then shouldn't you be voting for Lataro? Not lynching him is essentially killing me. Or do you think he is misguided town?

[roband]

Lataro, if your kill will be cancelled by the WW or mafia kill then we need to lynch boomfrog and I will RB a-wan tonight (as he should be the only remaining scum and I will block him from killing anyone).

Ahh shit. But then the WW will kill me. And nothing can stop that. Apart from boomfrog, who has no need to save a townie.

Or if I can work out who the WW is and RB them instead. But I have no damn idea.

[Misnomer]

Another modly question. Will the poison and mafia NK at least take place at the same time, or is my ability completely worthless if I'm killed tonight?

Mafia kill is processed first.

If ThirdKoopa is mafia and he executes the kill does he have to give up his untargetability?

Yes

[roband]

Well actually, with my RB it doesn't matter who we kill first.

Unless I get WW killed before my RB takes effect. Oh, this is bloody confusing.

Mod, so we stop asking can you list the powers that remain and the order they occur in?