Mac vs PC

[J the Ninja]

After owning a Macbook Pro, I cannot use any trackpad that works otherwise.

Seconded.

Me three. Why have so few manufacturers copied the 2-finger scroll? Some Acer netbook is the only non-Apple machine I've ever seen it on. And I'm always trying to click the trackpad on other people's laptops.....

[phlip]

The Eee does two-finger scrolling (or, at least, mine does).

[cjmcjmcjmcjm]

I've heard the Chromebook does two-finger scrolling as well, but it sucks so bad, you might as well use its USB port and plug in your mouse like on any other laptop

[hintss]

The trackpads on the new macbooks are cool... not essential though, but cool.

I've gotta disagree on this one. After owning a Macbook Pro, I cannot use any trackpad that works otherwise. Seriously, less than 1.5" diagonal and need to click buttons and fudge with an awkward scroll bar that may or may not work? Nope.avi!

my netbook's trackpad measures 2.25" diagonally...

[cjmcjmcjmcjm]

Still, the lack of two-finger scrolling and all those other hand gestures seems silly anymore.

[Steax]

A couple weeks old, but still: Is it just me, or do other "multi-touch trackpads" aside from apple still lack something? My parents recently bought a laptop with the same feature listed, with windows. But for the life of me I couldn't do even basic scrolling or swiping. It was totally unreliable. And I REALLY hate the cursor switching to that weird "scroll" cursor while I'm scrolling up or down. That, and the trackpad was tiny.

I guess it just goes to show that having a feature =/= feature working well. Nothing comes close to the accuracy and simplicity of my macbook's trackpad.

And to take the cake for me, while other trackpads can try to do what macbooks do, jitouch simply wins. Being able to hook gestures to hotkeys means I can integrate my trackpad with any app, making it just that much better. Switching from one file to another on my IDE? Hold-right+tap-left = left tab, hold-left+tap-right = right tab. Three-finger-up to go to first tab. I really can never switch away from it.

[cjmcjmcjmcjm]

I use Better Touch Tool. Tried Jitouch, but then realized it wouldn't run anymore unless I paid them $7

[Steax]

It does, you just need to open it's control panel and turning it back on. You can't reactivate from the option on that top menu bar thingy.

[cjmcjmcjmcjm]

Meh. BTT works and is free

[liar.paradox]

Apple makes consumer products. Their business model revolves around consumers not businesses. Apple wants you to take your Mac to the 'Apple Store' when you need it repaired. This is fine in a consumer context, but it's a mess in a business context. SMB IT departments don't have access to same diagnostic tools or documentation as the apple store technicians (unless your company has over 50 Macs and an appropriately certified technician). Further, the criteria for a repair shop to become an 'authorized' apple repair shop is fairly rigid (i.e. it's based on the type of volume of sales your business has). This is further to enforce the consumer driven business model. No other hardware vendor does this. This is because Apple's business model is based on tying all OS purchases to overpriced and proprietary hardware. In short, Macs are not designed for small to mid-sized businesses. They are not cost effective. Windows OWNS the office network. Unless you are on a large campus, I wouldn't even think about using anything but Active Directory and I'm a big fan of LDAP and hate Windows as a server OS.

Also, what is with inappropriate names for Apple products. Let's call our calendar iCal, our picture viewer JPEG, and our handheld OS iOS. Sheesh, I thought Microsoft marketing smoked crack...*

*iCal is a standard for scheduling events on a calendar, JPEG is a committe/standard/loosely defined file format (not a name for a picture viewer), and iOS is just a bad name for an OS (IOS was already the name of Cisco's 'operating system'/firmware).

[NotThatDork]

Hi, first post here.

Windows, at least after Windows 7, which is the first stable and comfy version from start without 3rd party add-ons. Like the free choice on hardware components, and compatibility from version to version (99% of it, at least).

I have a machine with GRUUB installed to run Win 7, Ubuntu 10.10 and a Hacked version of Mac Os X 16.0 (couldn't upgrade it, since it´s a miracle after 150 trials I've made it work) on an Intel PC.

Win 7, runs, detects everything, and, to my point of view, runs smoothly on my core-duo.

I've tried several linux distros over my life. Red hat first, when you had to be a master of hardware to install even jumper configurations on Win 3.0, I've found it interesting, but very hard to the common users (I was 17 at the time). Later on I've tried Suse (unnappealing to me), and recently Kubuntu (unstable and awkward with sound drivers (!), Mandriva (their installer lags 5-8 years in plug and play terms) and Ubuntu 10.10, which for me it's nice, fast, and reliable if a bit spartan (Commpiz sucks, admit it, nice to play, but very unstable). Thing is, even if it lacks of the proper office package (say whatever you want: Open Office is subpar, period.) I love Linux philosophy, so I try to give them a try whenever I can, even if in the road to mastering it I'm always at 30%. I feel the same with Greenpeace: I love what their do, mostly, but don't have a tiniest clue of how really helping them if they would invite me to join them.

Testing of Hackingtosh doesn't count for Mac OS X. See, it's not integrated at all, had to deal with PC hardware and SCASI and S.M.A.R.T. capabilities, and so on. Incluiding sound, which I never made it work at all. Suprinsingly, it overclocks (sort of) my Pc when it runs... just to say that goes faster than on a Mac (yeah, right, believe me!) incluiding the motherborad clock... but there's also problems every time and then with thing the OS wasn't designed for.

Still, I've developed to things with Mac over the years, aside from their philosophy

Before Iphone, Macs were to me something of just to snob, but in a kind of geek wannabe way. Those guys opted for a Machine that had few problems (conceded), but where unable to share the tiniest doc with anyone else. then Apple collapsed and Microsoft went to save it on the last minute. Apple went underground to main stream news until the Iphone... Steve Jobs met Project Runway, Heidi Klum included, and Apple, with an admittedly well rounded product (which still I hate, gifted I would change it for something with Android Inside), started to be appealing for their sense of desing.

Let me apart myself a bit here: Desing, to me, its the 2010s bubble. People, in general, and fashion addicts, gourmets, but every segmen tof the market and Apple fans in particular) are paying and awesome figure in their products to get "desing". It's expensive, gives nothing really productive, except for the feeling that "I'm different, I own an ipad! Weel everybody has an Ipad now, but I've had it two month earlier than anybody else" thing. I'm no expert in life, and I clearly don't know what makes you different, but it's not your laptot, your I-pad, nor your cellphone.

They are, all "desings" manufacturers, smoke sellers, selling you something at bizarre prices just because it's has the merit of being expensive. Said it, I can't stop thinking that the authors of this economic aberration (http://www.luxurylaunches.com/other_stuff/worlds_most_expensive_ice_cream_for_1000.php), and the ones that consumes it, owns a machine with MAC OS X inside.


... and it doesn't run that smooth, nor it's particularly good (on a Mac), aside from the fact that you can't destroy it from control panel... less viruses are a good point to, but Linux all the way then.

[zmatt]

Apple software is a security nightmare, maintaining them isn't fun, the hardware is closed, and the software pool is nowhere as vast as windows and unlike linux isn't free. I had a powerbook once. gave them the benefit of the doubt. Damn thing was slow, hot and fell apart in front of me. What a waste of $1200.

For general every day stuff for 90% of the population windows is the best choice. the hard it runs on is much cheaper than a mac, and guys like us can fix it with off the shelf parts. Working on a mac is like reverse engineering captured Alien technology. What are all of these shiny white things in the way? Shouldn't the memory be here? What do you mean it's not ATX?

[rawrage]

Honestly they are much better machines than all the pcs out there. They dont slow down. They dont break (often). No viruses, that is, if you manage to find the three that are actually out there you are doing something wrong. The number one argument i hear is people talking about how you cant game on them. Anyone with half a brain can google search how to use any of the open source software that runs pc software on a mac.

And then people cry about the cost. I am more than willing to pay a little more for a machine that will last twice as long. I mean how often has youre fan broken and youve had to replace it.

[Iranon]

"Any Apple or associated OS, no Linux", easily. BSD to be precise - a good part of it made it into OS X.

Regarding hate on macs: Apple keeps very tight control of everything - hardware, software, look-and-feel, chair-keyboard interface. This allows them to make polished and well-integrated products with several neat details, but it feels oppressive and patronising to many including myself. Add that they favour automation and being intuitive to lay users over simplicity/transparency/flexibility, and they're offensive to many geeks even if we disregard business practices.

[Jackpot777]

I have an iMac Core Duo and an iPhone 3GS. My wife has a MacBook Air 3,1 and an iPhone 3GS. I've had an iPod Nano 2 in the past.

But I've also owned PCs and enjoyed overclocking them.

So I guess I'm a Leo Strut.

[doinkisaac]

I'm typing this on a Macbook.
That doesn't mean I like it, but it was my only choice. The cost difference is pretty big (Most c2d comps cost <$600 and I can get a 15" Lenovo w/ an i7 for half the price of a MBP). So far, I've had (in order) a disk drive scratch everything that went into it, a battery die, the screws holding the screen to the left hinge come out, the CD drive break again (maybe, I have to get it checked out), and the fan spins up to 6000+ RPM if I move the laptop when it's on. So maybe it's just me, but I haven't had very much luck with them. Admittedly, I really, really like the trackpad, but that's really it.

[bobjoesmith]

I had to spend 3 weeks over the summer using a Mac... and oh my god i felt helpless. And my fingers cramped from having to hit the "apple" key all the time... seriously... can anyone type "apple-c" as fast as i can type ctrl-c

[Dason]

seriously... can anyone type "apple-c" as fast as i can type ctrl-c

What?

[Steax]

Is there even a difference? And you only need to hit the key to call shortcuts, which... well... shortcuts exist everywhere.

[EvanED]

I guess I could see there being a little bit of a difference given that the ctrl key (on non-laptops at least) appears at the edge of the keyboard and the Apple key doesn't. But I doubt there is a significant difference if you take someone who is experienced at both.

[Steax]

It just practically switches place with the alt key, which is also a common shortcut key.

[EvanED]

Common, but I would guess still significantly less so than control. Just think about copy/paste. (Actually that'd be some interesting statistics to gather. I'm not sure how to go about that though.)

[Steax]

I guess I could see where that's coming from. It'd be a bit harder to switch fingers for the control toggle key (apple/ctrl); I use my thumb for the apple key, and my little finger for normal control (I think). An abrupt change does take a while to get used to, and sometimes I even find myself confused when I move back to my own windows machine and wonder why it won't copy.

Probably not 3 weeks though.

[Iranon]

The real issue is being unable to customise interface behaviour. It's ok if my bikeshed doesn't come in my favourite colour by default, but please let me paint it. No default behaviour will work for everyone because it's practically impossible to make an interface efficient and newbie-safe at the same time.

[Steax]

Out of curiosity, what interface behavior are you talking of here? I've noticed that macs have relatively easy to change interfaces, functionality wise (not necessarily aesthetically, but that's a whole other discussion).

[Iranon]

This was a response to the complaints about awkward keys. If this is truly something worth several posts, the natural question is 'well, can I change it easily?'. While 'Use as intended and get over your old habits' is a fair answer, I like systems built on the principle of choice. In this case, this would mean the ability to define multiple scriptable actions including fake keypresses on any input I can think of. Massive overkill solution for a 'problem' I don't really get myself, but it's the principle that counts.

While I'm not familiar enough with macs to know all power user toys available under that friendly exterior, my impression was 'someone put a lot of effort into the defaults, don't ruin our work' rather than 'here's something to get you started, happy tinkering'.

[Jplus]

Excuse me for interrupting a discussion that I'm not really interested in, but: if you are not familiar enough with macs to know what it offers to power users, how can you maintain that it doesn't seem to allow for tinkering?

(FWIW, I use a mac, and I think it's very scriptable.)

[Steax]

I find OS X to be much easier to script than Windows, if only because it has much of what you'd expect in a Linux-based OS.

Or you could just grab something like DoubleCommand if this annoys you that much.

[Iranon]

I'm not saying it doesn't allow for tinkering, I'm saying it doesn't invite me to; even a lot of modern open source software doesn't.

Features that invite me to play around: powerful text-based configuration that's extensively commented and documented, a focus on transparency and simple-but-extensible defaults, modularity.
Features forbidding to the tinker in me: a high level of abstraction, integration and automation. Complexity. Configuration methods that sacrifice ease of hand editing for working better with GUIs.

My mac experiences pretty firmly suggests the latter.

[Steax]

I'm not saying it doesn't allow for tinkering, I'm saying it doesn't invite me to; even a lot of modern open source software doesn't.

Features that invite me to play around: powerful text-based configuration that's extensively commented and documented, a focus on transparency and simple-but-extensible defaults, modularity.
Features forbidding to the tinker in me: a high level of abstraction, integration and automation. Complexity. Configuration methods that sacrifice ease of hand editing for working better with GUIs.

My mac experiences pretty firmly suggests the latter.

You know, reading that, I was thinking "WINDOWS!" much more than OS X.

OS X configuration is based on either an API (mostly for Apple's own stuff) or based on text files (mostly stuff carried along from open source software).

In general, though, as has been noted several times, OS X just isn't geared towards customizing stuff. It's geared towards making productive software and sensible defaults. That time documenting and commenting on configuration files could be used for making better APIs, something which I feel, as a OS X developer, are already available here.

Heck, I'm having so much fun as an OS X developer, I actually spend time creating interfaces and usability testing. Since macs practically always use the same hardware and setup, I don't have very many use cases to deal with.

[iCryBlood]

I chose Mac, because I can run PC games on it, and The only other PCs in my house are HP, and the other has a Pentium card, which scares me on the inside.

[eaglewings51]

I'm a PC user. I have tried Macs and while I can use them and do use them when I have to, I much prefer PCs. A lot of people say PCs are more prone to viruses and such. While that may be true, I have never had an issue with viruses. I have the free version of AVG downloanded on my computer and I have never had an issue with viruses or malware or any other attacks on my computer. And, for the record, for nine months out of the year, I'm at college on an open wireless network. Anyone attending this college has unlimted access to the connection and anyone who's not can log on as a guest and use it.

Also, Macs are more expensive. In my opinion, Macs and PCs aren't that different except for the user interface. We can argue that all we want on how they're different or how they're not but basically, I have been able to do anything I want to with my PC and I've never had a lack of software or capabilities. In my opinion, when getting a Mac, you're paying extra for a computer that's not really worth more. You're basically paying for a brand name.

[yukizora]

I'm a PC user. I have tried Macs and while I can use them and do use them when I have to, I much prefer PCs. A lot of people say PCs are more prone to viruses and such. While that may be true, I have never had an issue with viruses. I have the free version of AVG downloanded on my computer and I have never had an issue with viruses or malware or any other attacks on my computer. And, for the record, for nine months out of the year, I'm at college on an open wireless network. Anyone attending this college has unlimted access to the connection and anyone who's not can log on as a guest and use it.

Also, Macs are more expensive. In my opinion, Macs and PCs aren't that different except for the user interface. We can argue that all we want on how they're different or how they're not but basically, I have been able to do anything I want to with my PC and I've never had a lack of software or capabilities. In my opinion, when getting a Mac, you're paying extra for a computer that's not really worth more. You're basically paying for a brand name.

I'd add that if you need a safe environment without the software compatibility just like Apple has it, it's better to go right to Linux. Sometimes people forget this one So, really, apple doesn't have a good reason to live right now, except maybe some professional software.

[Meem1029]

The way I see it there are generally a few types of Mac people.
1) The programmer/hacker (in a good way) type of people who use Mac because it's UNIX, but don't want to deal with the fact that Linux can randomly break sometimes.
2) The people who use it because they want a system more stable than Windows but don't want to learn Linux/have software they need to use that doesn't run on Linux.
3) The people who think that it's cool and want to be in the cool crowd/think that because it's absurdly more expensive it must be better/cooler/haha, I can afford this and you can't therefore I'm more awesome than you.

I'm guessing most people here fall into the first 2 categories.

[cjmcjmcjmcjm]

The way I see it there are generally a few types of Mac people.
1) The programmer/hacker (in a good way) type of people who use Mac because it's UNIX, but don't want to deal with the fact that Linux can randomly break sometimes.
2) The people who use it because they want a system more stable than Windows but don't want to learn Linux/have software they need to use that doesn't run on Linux.
3) The people who think that it's cool and want to be in the cool crowd/think that because it's absurdly more expensive it must be better/cooler/haha, I can afford this and you can't therefore I'm more awesome than you.

I'm guessing most people here fall into the first 2 categories.

…and most Mac users outside these fora are solidly in the 3^rd

[EvanED]

[Ben's Brook]

Mac vs PC:

PC: When your GPU fries, go buy a new PCI card.
Mac: When your GPU fries, closed architecturelolololololol.

[arclight]

The way I see it there are generally a few types of Mac people.
1) The programmer/hacker (in a good way) type of people who use Mac because it's UNIX, but don't want to deal with the fact that Linux can randomly break sometimes.
2) The people who use it because they want a system more stable than Windows but don't want to learn Linux/have software they need to use that doesn't run on Linux.
3) The people who think that it's cool and want to be in the cool crowd/think that because it's absurdly more expensive it must be better/cooler/haha, I can afford this and you can't therefore I'm more awesome than you.

I'm guessing most people here fall into the first 2 categories.

I would like to add one group to your list. There are those who buy and use Macs because they are easier to use. (I know some elderly people who swear by the simple GUI)

[Steax]

There's also the group I belong to (maybe a subgroup of meem's second group): those who use macs because their workflow uses it. I use a bunch of Mac-only apps, such as Cornerstone for svn. I also only own the Mac version of Adobe's creative suite. And I develop Mac apps. I also find that things render better on my Mac (given I have my Mac and a Windows computer right side by side), which makes it easier to make good screenshots and stuff.

I also kinda fall into the first group, as I prefer something break as little as possible (and I prefer being able to get someone to fix it than fix it myself), because I want to focus on my work.

[Endless Mike]

Mac vs PC:

PC: When your GPU fries, go buy a new PCI card.
Mac: When your GPU fries, closed architecturelolololololol.

When your GPU fries take it to the Apple Store and get a new (refurbished) computer, possibly of a newer model.

Also, for whoever was talking about modifier keys, they're easily changed in System Preferences.