Doctor Whom

[Giant Speck]

It's really easy to tell if you watch the episode on BBC iPlayer with subtitles on...

Right. Thank you for a totall useless comment.

I don't think he said that to be an asshole.

[SlyReaper]

Yes, but it's still a useless comment for anyone who doesn't live in the UK (or anyone who DOES live in the UK but whose bandwidth is too crap to watch anything on iPlayer). By my understanding, iPlayer has a lot of country blocks on it so only UK folk can watch it.

[mister k]

Spoiler:

pretty sure the ryhme was just a repetition of what the eyepatch lady said.

So.. didn't like this episode that much. It was pretty funny, but

Spoiler:

they were beaten by the power of love? REALLY? Just felt like such a sloppy conclusion. Also the bith with Smith talking to some kids honestly felt like it was written for Tennant. There were a couple of moments where both Smith and Corden seemed to be having trouble acting the poorly written script.

[crowey]

Spoiler:

pretty sure the ryhme was just a repetition of what the eyepatch lady said.

Spoiler:

it's the same rhyme that's been popping up all series, but with a new bit at the end ("till river kills the doctor"). I think the intention was to imply that the day the doctor dies is a massive historical moment and that it has become a big cultural point with children's rhymes (like how ring o roses is about the plague etc) and legends (the way Madam Kavorian spoke about the legend of the impossible astronaut, River studying it as an archaeological mystery with legends and folk stories associated with it, like a lost city from an ancient civilisation or whatever)

[Jorpho]

By the way, bit odd that whatshisname didn't get billing in the opening credits, isn't it? Particularly considering that Amy and Rory were barely in this one.

Maybe the budget is too constrained for re-rendering them.

[AvatarIII]

This episode had two importances. Also, it was a very funny episode

Spoiler:

It allows the viewer to see Amy and Rory are moving on and living normally. This is relief to the doctor for simply ditching them last episode.

Spoiler:

it opens up the missing information for the next episode (the final one)

see I'm confused,

Spoiler:

the doctor says he's going to die tomorrow, does that mean tomorrow for the world or tomorrow for him, because as far as I knew he only knows his date of death, not how long he has left to live, if it us one day for us, that only gives any and rory one day to get to the US, and also that means when he sees them in the department store that if them before he picks them up at the beginning of this season, not after he drops them off.

[TaintedDeity]

Timey Wimey.

[sugarhyped]

This episode had two importances. Also, it was a very funny episode

Spoiler:

It allows the viewer to see Amy and Rory are moving on and living normally. This is relief to the doctor for simply ditching them last episode.

Spoiler:

it opens up the missing information for the next episode (the final one)

see I'm confused,

Spoiler:

the doctor says he's going to die tomorrow, does that mean tomorrow for the world or tomorrow for him, because as far as I knew he only knows his date of death, not how long he has left to live, if it us one day for us, that only gives any and rory one day to get to the US, and also that means when he sees them in the department store that if them before he picks them up at the beginning of this season, not after he drops them off.

Spoiler:

In my mind it has to be that he has 24 hours left to live.
Why the current date is sometime after the day he dies: I'm assuming that he left Rory and Amy at the same time he picked them up from or later. It is implied that the Rory and Amy he was watching in the mall are from after he left them because he knows they are okay. Also it would take some time for Amy to be famous but she could have been working on that before she got married or after her honeymoon before season 6.

Why he has 24 hours left to live, not dies tomorrow: He was using up hours to help stop the cybermen and then to clean up Craig's place which were hours he wanted to spend doing something in space he described which I cannot remember. So it's assumed in his timeline he has a day left...

I feel like Amy and Rory forgot that the reason they went back to the Tardis was to help save the doctor from his death... That's kind of annoying.

Edited to clear up some stuff.

[Magnanimous]

I kind of think of it as there being two dimensions of time: one that we perceive (and that the TARDIS freely moves around in), and one overarching one that the Doctor doesn't have much control over.

[Gelsamel]

Spoiler:

The 200 years thing could be an artificial thing due to River's poison and regeneration of The Doctor. Perhaps it made him artificially 200 or so years older? Either that or between dropping Amy and Rory off he has fucked around for 200 years, which seems unlikely, could he really have spent all that time alone and only visited whatshisface on his second to last day?

Also, why does it have to be River who kills The Doctor? Is it just that these circumstances could have never come about without River in existance? Why couldn't it just be that there was another person in the suit who shoots The Doctor. It was supposed to be that River was a time lord-ish person to so she could 'fight' on the same level as him but past the poisoning event and also her loss of regenerations I don't see why the assassin specifically has to be her.

Hope we get good answers.

[Jorpho]

Spoiler:

The 200 years thing could be an artificial thing due to River's poison and regeneration of The Doctor. Perhaps it made him artificially 200 or so years older? Either that or between dropping Amy and Rory off he has fucked around for 200 years, which seems unlikely, could he really have spent all that time alone and only visited whatshisface on his second to last day?

Seems perfectly reasonable to me, actually.

Hope we get good answers.

Bwahapfakha! We'll get "answers" of the sort from Let's Kill Hitler, if we're lucky. There was just a little bit too much happening in that trailer.

[quantumcat42]

All I know is, I'd watch a buddy-movie starring the Doctor and Stormageddon, Master of All.

[AvatarIII]

All I know is, I'd watch a buddy-movie starring the Doctor and Stormageddon, Master of All.

Stormageddon lol, i loved that bit.

[Gelsamel]

I'm reposting this from /b/ I have no idea how real the image in this post is. If it's legit, possible huge spoilers of upcoming episodes.

READ THE FOLLOWING AT YOUR OWN RISK

Spoiler:

My theories:

Doctor death?
YES. He is confirmed to die and his death is a fixed point in time due to being part of a stable time loop. However, as we saw with River Song, another TimeLord can use their remaining regenerations to revive a dead one. DONNA will save him. Wilf will be receiving a blue letter with the same coordinates as the others, just... a few hours later. And with two words. BRING HER. Expelling her TimeLord essence would also fix
her burning up and dying problem.

RORY IS THE MASTER.
Rory has been becoming much more irrational and aggresively violent. Also, in the episode "Let's Kill Hitler" after witnessing River's regeneration and being exposed to RAW TIME ENERGY for the first time, he begins to complain of a "banging in my head", which Amy dismisses as Hitler in the closet. Also think back to "The God Complex". Rory did not have a room. He was the only character they made a point to say did not have one. And when the Doctor looked into his room all he said was "Of course it was you." and we hear the wailing of the TARDIS distress call in 4 repetitions. The only other time it has made this sound was when The Master stole it in series 3.

Also take a look at this image. It is the first time anyone other than The Doctor has been listed before Amy in the BBC listing. They order
these based on character importance to the episode. Also note the two names at the end of the list Catherine Tate and John Simm.

I don't exactly agree with all the speculah, again read at your own risk:

Spoiler:

Rory The Master, really? The Doctor surviving by regen share yet again and the history police still thinking he died? I doubt they'll reuse that exact event! But if the image is real then Donna and The Master's inclusion in the episode is gaurenteed. What the hell.

[Angua]

Re Gelsamel's spoilers

Spoiler:

Don't they burn his body though? Might be a bit difficult to re-essence him if he's just ashes now.

Also, if they do do the donna work around, does that mean he'll have tennant's personality traits showing through?

[keozen]

In relation to spoilers above:

Spoiler:

I highly doubt that Catherine Tate will be in it unless it's in a similar manner to how she was in LKH (hologram in the TARDIS and not actually there). DVR cast listings are notoriously as bad as IMDB at times for getting stuff like this wrong so she may not be in it at all.

Other random stuff:

Spoiler:

I liked the episode, it was a nice mid season "filler" episode as it were. Nothing amazing yet not a bad episode at all. The Cybermen being killed by Huey Lewis and the News was a bit cheesy but I'll let it slide.

As for finale spoilers though, I think it's going to be another situation where parts of what we guess may be right but no one will have fully got it because we don't have nearly enough info to guess what's going to happen. Kind of like the end of last series.

No matter what happens it has to be at least some degree "deus ex machina" simply because of the set up (Moffat promises that that is actually the Doctor and he is actually dead). So everyone set their expectation meters to some form of cheat being involved otherwise you won't enjoy the finale at all.

[AvatarIII]

Re Gelsamel's spoilers

Spoiler:

Don't they burn his body though? Might be a bit difficult to re-essence him if he's just ashes now.

Also, if they do do the donna work around, does that mean he'll have tennant's personality traits showing through?

Spoiler:

yeah i don't know how they're going to do it, this speculation seems really off the wall to me, there has been absolutely no "Master" hints this entire season, I'm pretty confident that the Doctor's fear is becoming the Valeyard, which is why he's so accepting of his death, i think if The Master and Donna are in the episode it will probably just be cameos, like when Tennant's Doctor went around visiting all his companions before he regenerated. we'll see though, only 5 days.

[Diadem]

Didn't The Master get resurrected in The End of Time, despite being dead and his body burned. And we know The Doctor is going to die, and his body burned. I see similarities.

If The Master is in the next episode, it could be in flashbacks explaining this possibility. Though that theory fails to explain the pressence of Donna.

They need some trick to get him back though. What worries me most is that it's not a 2-parter. So much build-up resolved in 50 min seems impossible. Unless they end on a cliffhanger of course. Has Doctor Who ever done that before?

[AvatarIII]

Spoiler:

Didn't The Master get resurrected in The End of Time, despite being dead and his body burned. And we know The Doctor is going to die, and his body burned. I see similarities.

If The Master is in the next episode, it could be in flashbacks explaining this possibility. Though that theory fails to explain the pressence of Donna.

They need some trick to get him back though. What worries me most is that it's not a 2-parter. So much build-up resolved in 50 min seems impossible. Unless they end on a cliffhanger of course. Has Doctor Who ever done that before?

you should probably spoiler that up, just in case.

Spoiler:

as for ending on a cliffhanger, i guess it might and then the Christmas episode could resolve it, it's only 3 months away, and the mid season finale was kind of a cliffhanger, and there was just as much waiting for resolution then.

[keozen]

Spoiler:

From what info has leaked out about the Christmas special it sounds to be a self contained story.

Also, I'll reiterate my previous point and call occum's razor on the DVR listings of Donna/the Master. DVR cast listings are very frequently wrong.

[big boss]

Finally watched the entire series in the past 3 months been wanting to read this thread for a while but used my willpower to avoid spoiling it for myself.
Anyways...

Spoiler:

This might have been mentioned before but its a long thread... Did anyone else think of the funeral scenes from Star Wars when the doctor's body was being burned? I haven't seen Star Wars in a few years, but if I'm thinking of the right scene it looked awfully like the scenes where Yoda and Darth Vader's bodies are burned.

[Giant Speck]

Spoiler:

From what info has leaked out about the Christmas special it sounds to be a self contained story.

Also, I'll reiterate my previous point and call occum's razor on the DVR listings of Donna/the Master. DVR cast listings are very frequently wrong.

Spoiler:

That, and the IMDB page for the episode does not show Catherine Tate listed under cast and crew.

[mister k]

potential spoilers for next episode. Everyone needs to make this clearer, because if that is a real spoiler, its much, much worse than getting spoiled for episodes already shown!

Spoiler:

I will eat my hat if either Donna or the Master appear in the next episode. That is a T.Davies move, not a Moffat move. Moffat writes with actual forshadowing, so pulling either characters out of his behind would just look astonishingly clunky. Bear in mind that while writing callbacks is fun, you simply cannot assume that someone watching this series has watched one from several years back, which means that there would have to be time to reintroduce Donna, AND the master, who hasn't appeared for even longer. And you'd have to explain how the Master came back to life (and got killed in the first place), AND you'd have to explain how Donna got her memory back AND how she lost it...

Basically I would be extremely disappointed if the Moff did that.

[Gelsamel]

potential spoilers for next episode. Everyone needs to make this clearer, because if that is a real spoiler, its much, much worse than getting spoiled for episodes already shown!

Spoiler:

I will eat my hat if either Donna or the Master appear in the next episode. That is a T.Davies move, not a Moffat move. Moffat writes with actual forshadowing, so pulling either characters out of his behind would just look astonishingly clunky. Bear in mind that while writing callbacks is fun, you simply cannot assume that someone watching this series has watched one from several years back, which means that there would have to be time to reintroduce Donna, AND the master, who hasn't appeared for even longer. And you'd have to explain how the Master came back to life (and got killed in the first place), AND you'd have to explain how Donna got her memory back AND how she lost it...

Basically I would be extremely disappointed if the Moff did that.

Same type of spoilers:

Spoiler:

I agree, but if the casting is true then they must appear in some form. When the Doctor was poisoned we see all those other characters without explanation (I only watch Matt Smith) so it wouldn't be too weird if it was a flashback/recording type thing, but entirely reintroducing the characters? I doubt it.

Though it's not like there isn't any foreshadowing if they do end up doing that, like the comment I copied from /b/ said, the Doctor's greatest fear was had the siren making a sound which the comment said may be related to The Master (not watching outside of the Eleventh Doctor I wouldn't know).

[Brother Maynard]

potential spoilers for next episode. Everyone needs to make this clearer, because if that is a real spoiler, its much, much worse than getting spoiled for episodes already shown!

Spoiler:

I will eat my hat if either Donna or the Master appear in the next episode. That is a T.Davies move, not a Moffat move. Moffat writes with actual forshadowing, so pulling either characters out of his behind would just look astonishingly clunky. Bear in mind that while writing callbacks is fun, you simply cannot assume that someone watching this series has watched one from several years back, which means that there would have to be time to reintroduce Donna, AND the master, who hasn't appeared for even longer. And you'd have to explain how the Master came back to life (and got killed in the first place), AND you'd have to explain how Donna got her memory back AND how she lost it...

Basically I would be extremely disappointed if the Moff did that.

Same type of spoilers:

Spoiler:

I agree, but if the casting is true then they must appear in some form. When the Doctor was poisoned we see all those other characters without explanation (I only watch Matt Smith) so it wouldn't be too weird if it was a flashback/recording type thing, but entirely reintroducing the characters? I doubt it.

Though it's not like there isn't any foreshadowing if they do end up doing that, like the comment I copied from /b/ said, the Doctor's greatest fear was had the siren making a sound which the comment said may be related to The Master (not watching outside of the Eleventh Doctor I wouldn't know).

Spoiler:

Thing is, the limit of the foreshadowing for Master/Rory there would be "Weird stuff happened to Rory and there was a banging in his head in one scene." Donna would be entirely out of left field if she appeared in a role more complex than a still shot for the Voice Interface, and Moffat calls his shots too far in advance for asspulls like that.

[Gelsamel]

potential spoilers for next episode. Everyone needs to make this clearer, because if that is a real spoiler, its much, much worse than getting spoiled for episodes already shown!

Spoiler:

I will eat my hat if either Donna or the Master appear in the next episode. That is a T.Davies move, not a Moffat move. Moffat writes with actual forshadowing, so pulling either characters out of his behind would just look astonishingly clunky. Bear in mind that while writing callbacks is fun, you simply cannot assume that someone watching this series has watched one from several years back, which means that there would have to be time to reintroduce Donna, AND the master, who hasn't appeared for even longer. And you'd have to explain how the Master came back to life (and got killed in the first place), AND you'd have to explain how Donna got her memory back AND how she lost it...

Basically I would be extremely disappointed if the Moff did that.

Same type of spoilers:

Spoiler:

I agree, but if the casting is true then they must appear in some form. When the Doctor was poisoned we see all those other characters without explanation (I only watch Matt Smith) so it wouldn't be too weird if it was a flashback/recording type thing, but entirely reintroducing the characters? I doubt it.

Though it's not like there isn't any foreshadowing if they do end up doing that, like the comment I copied from /b/ said, the Doctor's greatest fear was had the siren making a sound which the comment said may be related to The Master (not watching outside of the Eleventh Doctor I wouldn't know).

Spoiler:

Thing is, the limit of the foreshadowing for Master/Rory there would be "Weird stuff happened to Rory and there was a banging in his head in one scene." Donna would be entirely out of left field if she appeared in a role more complex than a still shot for the Voice Interface, and Moffat calls his shots too far in advance for asspulls like that.

Same spoils:

Spoiler:

Well, I think the Rory -> Master hypothesis is ridiculously unlikely. I just mean the idea that The Master will be in this latest episode. Like I mentioned after I reposted the post from /b/, I think Rory -> Master is way too stupid and reusing the "Use up regenerations to save the Doctor" plot point would be ridiculous. But If that cast listing is right it seems to suggest The Master and Donna will make an appearance in the episode though the format that appearance might be in could be a small a narrative unaffecting (think the holograms when the Doctor was poisoned).

[Diadem]

Spoiler:

The master might still appear in flashbacks though. We might see flashbacks to his resurrection to explain how the doctor can be resurrected. Or maybe we'll see flashbacks to the doctor's youth, and if I'm not mistaken they were youth friends (though he should be wearing a different face then, so not the same actor). We might even see flashbacks to past doctors and past adventures as he is about to die. That would make sense within the narrative, and would explain past enemies and companions showing up.

As for any of them making an actual appareance in the episode outside of flashbacks. I highly doubt it. Like others have said, moffat generally does more foreshadowing. Though not always, remember how Mel was thrown in out of nowhere? So there's a sliver of doubt. But not much.

[Gelsamel]

Spoiler:

The master might still appear in flashbacks though. We might see flashbacks to his resurrection to explain how the doctor can be resurrected. Or maybe we'll see flashbacks to the doctor's youth, and if I'm not mistaken they were youth friends (though he should be wearing a different face then, so not the same actor). We might even see flashbacks to past doctors and past adventures as he is about to die. That would make sense within the narrative, and would explain past enemies and companions showing up.

As for any of them making an actual appareance in the episode outside of flashbacks. I highly doubt it. Like others have said, moffat generally does more foreshadowing. Though not always, remember how Mel was thrown in out of nowhere? So there's a sliver of doubt. But not much.

About the Mel thing

Spoiler:

I am so utterly disappointed with the writing on that one

Cause I really really thought they were going to emphasize 'How high' the Doctor would go in order to locate retreive Melody and 'How low' he would fall in the process (like becoming violent or 'losing himself' in the process) which would explain why she chose River Song as her name and would explain Bucket's encounter with the Doctor (ie. Melody was in the Gamma Forest or whatever). Which would have been awesome, but instead we just get "He can't find her, but it doesn't matter, she turns up eventually. Turns out she was with Amy the whole time" What the hell.

And now it seems that whole plot point about The Doctor being considered 'a warrior' and an enemy and not a healer has been completely dropped.

[mister k]

Spoiler:

The master might still appear in flashbacks though. We might see flashbacks to his resurrection to explain how the doctor can be resurrected. Or maybe we'll see flashbacks to the doctor's youth, and if I'm not mistaken they were youth friends (though he should be wearing a different face then, so not the same actor). We might even see flashbacks to past doctors and past adventures as he is about to die. That would make sense within the narrative, and would explain past enemies and companions showing up.

As for any of them making an actual appareance in the episode outside of flashbacks. I highly doubt it. Like others have said, moffat generally does more foreshadowing. Though not always, remember how Mel was thrown in out of nowhere? So there's a sliver of doubt. But not much.

About the Mel thing

Spoiler:

I am so utterly disappointed with the writing on that one

Cause I really really thought they were going to emphasize 'How high' the Doctor would go in order to locate retreive Melody and 'How low' he would fall in the process (like becoming violent or 'losing himself' in the process) which would explain why she chose River Song as her name and would explain Bucket's encounter with the Doctor (ie. Melody was in the Gamma Forest or whatever). Which would have been awesome, but instead we just get "He can't find her, but it doesn't matter, she turns up eventually. Turns out she was with Amy the whole time" What the hell.

And now it seems that whole plot point about The Doctor being considered 'a warrior' and an enemy and not a healer has been completely dropped.

Spoiler:

I disagree. Well maybe not about the whole melody plot- it was a bit silly that they're just not bothering searching for her now, but I guess the doctor has accepted that time is already fixed in that respect. Its pretty clear that his fall is River's speech to him. He had become obsessed with own legend, usign it to defeat countless enemies, and finally to take over an asteroid, but had lost himself along the way. He was clearly shaken by this, and hadn't got over it. god Complex is an important part of that thesis. The most recent one wasn't, but thats because whoever was writing that one wrote him like Tennant...

[keozen]

Future Speculation Spoiler:
(I'll categorise all my spoilers in future to avoid undue spoilerage but if you REALLY don't want a particular brand of spoiler then it's best to avoid all spoiler tags just in case, Doctor Who chatter naturally tends to lean towards speculation especially when Stephen "gotta love the series long arc" Moffat is writing)

Spoiler:

In-universe reasons aside the main reason Donna, etc would be unlikely to return is that Moffat isn't big on the back references to the RTD era as he wants to do his own thing.

Ever since he started his tenure there has been a clear divide that hasn't really been crossed. The only real callback has been River, and she was a Moffat creation and maybe the Oood in "The Doctor's Wife" and he wasn't meant to be an Oood (budgets forced him to be).

It seems to be that when Moffat has a choice between doing a callback to the RTD era and making up something new (or referencing something from WAY back) he'll choose one of the latter.

[keozen]

I read a "No Spoiler" review of the final episode (the press airings happened yesterday) and the following things stood out:

(they're not spoilers as such, deffo not plot spoilers but I err on the side of caution:)

Spoiler:

- They're not done with the "doctor meaning healer/warrior" thing don't worry

- If you saw flaws in TIA and LKH then you'll see flaws in this too, it's a similar writing style with lots of new concepts in the first 20 mins

- It somehow manages to raise the stakes

- Answers, lots of answers even to things you thought they'd leave hanging

[Gelsamel]

Spoiler:

The master might still appear in flashbacks though. We might see flashbacks to his resurrection to explain how the doctor can be resurrected. Or maybe we'll see flashbacks to the doctor's youth, and if I'm not mistaken they were youth friends (though he should be wearing a different face then, so not the same actor). We might even see flashbacks to past doctors and past adventures as he is about to die. That would make sense within the narrative, and would explain past enemies and companions showing up.

As for any of them making an actual appareance in the episode outside of flashbacks. I highly doubt it. Like others have said, moffat generally does more foreshadowing. Though not always, remember how Mel was thrown in out of nowhere? So there's a sliver of doubt. But not much.

About the Mel thing

Spoiler:

I am so utterly disappointed with the writing on that one

Cause I really really thought they were going to emphasize 'How high' the Doctor would go in order to locate retreive Melody and 'How low' he would fall in the process (like becoming violent or 'losing himself' in the process) which would explain why she chose River Song as her name and would explain Bucket's encounter with the Doctor (ie. Melody was in the Gamma Forest or whatever). Which would have been awesome, but instead we just get "He can't find her, but it doesn't matter, she turns up eventually. Turns out she was with Amy the whole time" What the hell.

And now it seems that whole plot point about The Doctor being considered 'a warrior' and an enemy and not a healer has been completely dropped.

Spoiler:

I disagree. Well maybe not about the whole melody plot- it was a bit silly that they're just not bothering searching for her now, but I guess the doctor has accepted that time is already fixed in that respect. Its pretty clear that his fall is River's speech to him. He had become obsessed with own legend, usign it to defeat countless enemies, and finally to take over an asteroid, but had lost himself along the way. He was clearly shaken by this, and hadn't got over it. god Complex is an important part of that thesis. The most recent one wasn't, but thats because whoever was writing that one wrote him like Tennant...

Spoiler:

Yes, I did notice that speech but it was honestly a "That's It?" moment, which is why I thought that they'd absolutely have an arc with the Bucket-Doctor interaction happening and things happening in the Gamma Forest that gave him his name as warrior etc. Because they were playing up how much he'd fall and lose himself and all it was was a little speech that he got over pretty quick as he suddenly got some good idea and then ran off in his Tardis.

[Robert'); DROP TABLE *;]

And now for something completetly different: YIL Arthur Darvill is/was part of a band.

[sugarhyped]

And now for something completetly different: YIL Arthur Darvill is/was part of a band.

Thanks for that. Arthur Darvill is pretty awesome.

[Pez Dispens3r]

Something from the last episode that will reappear for the finale.

Spoiler:

The Doctor can now "shush" people, which he could never do before, in the middle of a series arc concerning "The Silence". Yeah, that's not going to become important later.

[TaintedDeity]

I... think that was a joke about a method to make babies confused and quiet, but carried over onto all humans because they're like babies to him.

[big boss]

Yea I thought that at 1st too, but I don't see how they could use that to any meaningful effect in the plot. However it is almost so coincidental as to make it seem like it has something to do with the story arc.

[Pez Dispens3r]

I... think that was a joke about a method to make babies confused and quiet, but carried over onto all humans because they're like babies to him.

Yeah, but I'm telling you, there's a Greek army inside that wooden horse. Pure foreshadowing.

[Angua]

Anyone else disappointed that he still doesn't open the tardis door with a snap of his fingers?

[TaintedDeity]

I... think that was a joke about a method to make babies confused and quiet, but carried over onto all humans because they're like babies to him.

Yeah, but I'm telling you, there's a Greek army inside that wooden horse. Pure foreshadowing.

We'll see, I guess.