"Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

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"Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Tirian » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:38 am UTC

Self-styled "superhero" arrested on four charges of assault

Spoiler:
Benjamin Fodor, the "superhero" crime-fighter who's become an international celebrity for his masked patrols of Seattle's mean streets, didn't fare so well over the weekend. He was arrested for pepper-spraying a group of patrons leaving a downtown club.

The men and women were walking to their car early Sunday, "dancing and having a good time," when Fodor came up behind them wielding the pepper spray, a Seattle police report says.

Two men in the group chased Fodor down the street until police came and separated the group. Fodor, who has used the name "Phoenix Jones" in his publicity forays to avoid reprisals, was arrested on four counts of assault and hauled off to jail.

Updated: 2:25 p.m. Fodor on his "Phoenix Jones" Facebook page insists he was trying to break up a fight. A video he posted showed him rushing off toward a group of people, pepper spray can at the ready, and announcing he was going to stop the fight. His arrival touched off a brawl in which Fodor appeared to occasionally get the worst of, although he can be seen liberally squirting pepper spray at some of those assembled noisily in the street.

"Here is the fight that the police described as dancing from the few people they interviewed," he wrote.

But Seattle Police Det. Mark Jamieson told The Times there was no fight. Fodor had rushed toward a group of rowdy, but not initially combative, people. It was the third incident of the night in which people leaving bars had complained of being pepper sprayed, he said.

"In talking to the victims, they said no, we're all friends here. We were all out having a good time. We were not fighting at all," Jamieson said. "Based on all of that, all the victim and witness testimony, there was probable cause to arrest this individual for assault."

Fodor, under his Jones pseudonym, has appeared in international news accounts and network television as the most famous of the Seattle brand of superhero street patrols that have sprung up in cities across the U.S.
Clad in masks, tights and substantial attitudes, rolling through the rainy streets in a Kia Forte, the "Rain City Superheroes" say they aim to be the eyes, ears and iron will of the cops when the cops can't be there.

"Jones" was even spoofed on "Saturday Night Live" when he broke his nose earlier this year.

By day, Fodor is a 23-year-old Mixed Martial Arts fighter, says the Seattle Weekly, which decided to publish his true identity Monday after the Smoking Gun initially outed him.

By night, he has developed another kind of following. One local man told KIRO TV in January that Jones suddenly showed up when a man was trying to break into his car in a parking lot. "From the right, this guy comes dashing in, wearing this skin-tight rubber, black and gold suit, and starts chasing him away," recounted the man, identified only as Dan.

"My name is Phoenix Jones," the man announced.

In September, Fodor claimed to have foiled the attempted carjacking of a party bus, spraying a man who was struggling with the bus driver with pepper spray and sending him running, according to PubliCola.

"It's a pretty simple message. Citizens need to be more accountable. Calling 911 is a great start, but it's not the end all to end all," Jones told ABC News in an interview. "Criminals feel free to just run wild in my city, and I'm not going to stand for it."

The city has responded, some of the time, with gratitude. "Seattle needs you, Phoenix Jones. Don't give up!" someone wrote in on the Rain City Superheroes' Facebook page.

The police have been less than worshipful. Even before the latest pepper spray melee, police distributed a memo warning patrols to be watchful for the masked men.

When Fodor got his nose broken while trying to break up a fight in January (one of the parties pulled a gun, which apparently trumped the headlock Fodor had his friend in, resulting in the friend applying the toe of his boot to Fodor's face), the police didn't appear all that sympathetic.

"Does Superman get his [expletive] kicked?" a Seattle detective asked Seattlepi.com. "These people should not be called superheroes."

"You know, if somebody wants to dress up in costume and walk around Seattle in the middle of the night, they can do that. There's nothing illegal about that," Jamieson said in an interview. "Where we have an issue is when you insert yourself into these potentially volatile or unknown situations. Bad things can happen."


In the end of the day, I'm surprised there isn't more unregulated citizen justice going on in the United States these days. I think it's a pretty rotten idea, and I have a feeling that this fellow is going to realize that misconduct isn't excused when you're not actually in the police, but I'm sure to many it has a ring a necessity in these trying times.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby juststrange » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:57 am UTC

Time out. Stopping car-jackings in progress is not misconduct, and the man should be commended for making a stand in those situations. I would never think it wise to compel citizens to step in during a crime in progress, but I will definitely never admonish them for it. Lets remember who was doing the bad thing here. Similarly with breaking up an altercation. If you can step in and diffuse, physically if need be, a situation in order to prevent someone from getting seriously assaulted, good on you. The bouncers at the bar I used to frequent did this pretty much every Friday, 2:01 am in the parking lot.


Pepper spraying people who are likely drunk, loud, obnoxious, but not in anyway malicious as they try and get home from the bar is a completely different can of worms. It's assault. Sounds to me that this man was a little over zealous, and needs to get himself in check.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby jules.LT » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:08 pm UTC

juststrange wrote:Stopping car-jackings in progress is not misconduct, and the man should be commended for making a stand in those situations.

Making a stand if you encounter trouble is absolutely fine. It's going out looking for trouble which is objectionable.
These guys don't have the logistics, training, knowledge of the rules, etc. that police have. They're bound to get hurt and/or create trouble rather than prevent it.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:21 pm UTC

jules.LT wrote:These guys don't have the logistics, training, knowledge of the rules, etc. that police have. They're bound to get hurt and/or create trouble rather than prevent it.

No disagreement as a general, but part of the reason these guys are doing what they're doing is because the police are either complacent about crime in certain areas, or understaffed and not doing their jobs. Which isn't to say potentially making a larger mess for the police is the answer, but if you don't respect the action, respect the motive.
This stood out for me:
It was the third incident of the night in which people leaving bars had complained of being pepper sprayed, he said.

It takes *3* incidents of people getting pepper sprayed outside bars before police start looking for an asshole with a can of mace?
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby pseudoidiot » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:23 pm UTC

Well, yeah, two is just coincidence.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Feddlefew » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:08 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
It was the third incident of the night in which people leaving bars had complained of being pepper sprayed, he said.

It takes *3* incidents of people getting pepper sprayed outside bars before police start looking for an asshole with a can of mace?

Not necessarily. It might have just taken two incidents to start looking and three incidents to find the asshole with the can of mace.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:18 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:No disagreement as a general, but part of the reason these guys are doing what they're doing is because the police are either complacent about crime in certain areas, or understaffed and not doing their jobs. Which isn't to say potentially making a larger mess for the police is the answer, but if you don't respect the action, respect the motive.
Is that why they're also wearing ridiculous costumes? Maybe if the police are too complacent and understaffed, a more adequate solution would be to go into a career of law and try to correct that?

I'm sorry, but I'm not prepared to respect the motives of grown adults dressing up in costumes and running around trying to fight crime with a bottle of pepper-spray.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:20 pm UTC

Buwhat? Logical and reasonable, sensible courses of action? Not in my country!
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:27 pm UTC

Yeah, and keep in mind, I'm speaking from the perspective of an unrepentant comic book nerd who thinks Batman is the best thing ever. These sort of shenanigans belong squarely in crazypants-ville. It might be fun for a laugh, but these are unbalanced people with no actual training running around and looking for violent confrontations. Why? Because they've seen 'Kick-Ass' over a dozen times.

If I see a crime in progress, I call the police and otherwise do whatever I can to help while keeping in mind that I'm not a trained professional. I don't go looking for trouble, because I know that without training, I'm likely to make the situation worse--not better. This is just one small part of an extensive paradigm I'm adopting called 'being a responsible adult'.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Radical_Initiator » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:30 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Yeah, and keep in mind, I'm speaking from the perspective of an unrepentant comic book nerd who thinks Batman is the best thing ever. These sort of shenanigans belong squarely in crazypants-ville. It might be fun for a laugh, but these are unbalanced people with no actual training running around and looking for violent confrontations. Why? Because they've seen 'Kick-Ass' over a dozen times.

If I see a crime in progress, I call the police and otherwise do whatever I can to help while keeping in mind that I'm not a trained professional. I don't go looking for trouble, because I know that without training, I'm likely to make the situation worse--not better. This is just one small part of an extensive paradigm I'm adopting called 'being a responsible adult'.


Honestly, I was about to make the half-serious point that vigilantism has a clear advantage in the lack of necessary paperwork. We never see Batman filing arrest reports or having to explain to a jury the chain of custody of the evidence he knocked out of some bad guy's teeth, but you can be damn sure Gordon has to deal with all that crap after Batman's gone back to brooding in the cave or boning some socialite.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Tirian » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:33 pm UTC

juststrange wrote:Similarly with breaking up an altercation. If you can step in and diffuse, physically if need be, a situation in order to prevent someone from getting seriously assaulted, good on you. The bouncers at the bar I used to frequent did this pretty much every Friday, 2:01 am in the parking lot.


You know that bouncers have security guard training and (in sensible states and countries) licenses. They also have a clear mandate. A bouncer can throw an unruly patron out of a bar, a non-bouncer who does that without prompting isn't a hero but a hooligan. I'm also thinking that in general they have backup -- when your sidekick's name is Ghost I'm envisioning an origin story that involves being bitten by a radioactive camcorder.

I'm all for neighborhood watch. But once you start working independently of the police, concealing your identity, and using defense weapons for things other than defending yourself, you're closer to the Klan than you are to the Justice League.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:35 pm UTC

Radical_Initiator wrote:Honestly, I was about to make the half-serious point that vigilantism has a clear advantage in the lack of necessary paperwork. We never see Batman filing arrest reports or having to explain to a jury the chain of custody of the evidence he knocked out of some bad guy's teeth, but you can be damn sure Gordon has to deal with all that crap after Batman's gone back to brooding in the cave or boning some socialite.
Yeah, Gordon's entire job description can be summarized as 'cleaning the fuck up after Batman's mess'. I also love how you can describe Batman as 'a super rich dude who spends his nights terrorizing the city in his billion dollar super-car while using cutting edge technology to beat the fuck out of the poor and mentally ill'.

There's probably a great story to tell with Batman as some sort of bored status-quo-enforcing 'I'm-so-rich-I'm-above-the-law' supervillain and the Joker as a heroic anarchist/marxist resistance leader.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:47 pm UTC

Well wait a second Hippo. This guy is a mixed martial arts fighter, so he's not just some kid who wanted to wear a wet suit; if anything, he's more like Nick Cages character. Which doesn't make it better, really, just potentially less dangerous for him (which doesn't mean it's less dangerous for the people he's 'rescuing').

Secondly, there's nothing wrong per say with citizens involvement in crime reduction, and there's nothing wrong with an individual deciding to come to the aid of someone who needs it, I think these self-proclaimed super heroes are simply taking it too far. Personally, if I see someone getting assaulted, I would probably try and intervene, and I think it's dangerous to lay out a blanket 'call the cops and wipe your hands of it' mentality. Part of being a responsible adult, is as you mentioned, recognizing when you can improve or worsen a situation, and act accordingly. In many situations, simply running at an assailant and making as much noise as possible is going to make someone think twice about dragging someone into an ally for nefarious deeds. With that in mind, I applaud these super heroes, because they empower citizens to recognize the ramifications of being involved in community crime prevention. On the other hand, if someones getting their purse jacked at gun point, you better believe running in screaming isn't going to make the situation better.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Dauric » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:20 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Maybe if the police are too complacent and understaffed, a more adequate solution would be to go into a career of law and try to correct that?


While I agree with your stance in general that people emulating comic books is a bad idea, this line.. has other issues.

It's not that there's a shortage of people who would be willing to be police officers and/or get the training required to become one (and in many places getting the job of police officer doesn't have all that high a requirement, but then again these places have issues with abuse of police powers...), nor is it that police "like" turning a blind eye to problem areas where crimes go unreported.

The problem is frequently budgets. Budgets for payroll to pay those people to be police officers, budgets to equip those new officers with body-armor and sidearms, budgets to buy patrol cars, budgets to train these new-hires to be a professional police force and not uniformed thugs on a power-trip, budgets for oversight organizations to deal with police that act like uniformed thugs on a power-trip... Budgets that attempt to squeeze the services the citizens demand out of the no-taxes everyone wants to pay.

With the housing burst most municipalities are dealing with massive reductions in property taxes (since the property values plummeted tax revenue dropped right along with it) which means they don't have the money to provide all the services that everyone wants (roads, police, fire/rescue, etc.) and if you've just graduated with one of those Community College degrees in law enforcement in the last three or four years it's like having graduated with a comp-sci degree straight in to the bursting dot-bomb (I speak from experience on the latter). Doesn't matter how much you might want to be a police officer, when cities are struggling to avoid layoffs they're just not going to bring on more people.

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That said, I reiterate I agree that masked vigilantism isn't a good solution to the problem either, largely because of the lack of training that a proper police force would have to prevent them from engaging in semi-random thuggery (though many police forces lack that training anyway, at least to the degree that they need, and in those cases masked vigilantism may only be a half-step down from that. Well... Maybe a half step up because the masked vigilante-turned-thuggish moron won't have the power of a government police to protect them from the consequences of being a thuggish moron.... )
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Arrian » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:47 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:In the end of the day, I'm surprised there isn't more unregulated citizen justice going on in the United States these days. I think it's a pretty rotten idea, and I have a feeling that this fellow is going to realize that misconduct isn't excused when you're not actually in the police, but I'm sure to many it has a ring a necessity in these trying times.


WHY is this fallacy constantly repeated? Violent crimes have been trending down for something like two decades. Even over the short term, even in Seattle specifically:

Seattle Police Statistics wrote:Year-to-date, Major Crimes are down citywide by 7% when compared with the first eight months of 2010. This continues the downward crime trend that occurred citywide in 2010.


Violent crime is down pretty much everywhere, and it's a long term trend, (see figure 2.) Yet people still think we're worse off than we were in the 80s?
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Dauric » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:57 pm UTC

Arrian wrote:Violent crime is down pretty much everywhere, and it's a long term trend, (see figure 2.) Yet people still think we're worse off than we were in the 80s?


Information access, 24-hour news cycle, entertainment-as-news.

We have access to more information than we had in the 80's. It used to be that crime reports were relatively local, to within the broadcast/metro area of the station doing the reporting unless the crime was -really- unique in some way. Now we're discussing those relatively local crimes that have had their footage posted on Youtube on a worldwide forum.

With cable news, and the websites that support those news organizations they need content to fill that time. There's more talk about crimes and criminals, more internet content from big news agencies, news agencies picking up on blogger-reported local issues in an effort to be the first to "break the story".

And of course crime stories gather eyeballs, and in an advertiser-based news funding system, the stories that gather the most eyeballs are the ones you want to have the most of.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby TheSoberPirate » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:22 pm UTC

"Criminals feel free to just run wild in my city, and I'm not going to stand for it."

Isn't the US currently in a pretty much unprecedented era of low crime? A cursory review of Wikipedia suggests that this is true for violent and property crimes in the US in general, and surprisingly, doesn't seem to show an increase sense the recession started in 2008. And while this site (I don't know how reliable it is) does show Seattle's crime rates as above the national average, I can't help but think it's still a far cry from Gotham City.

To be clear, I'm not trying to dismiss the impacts of the crimes that are committed or suggest that we shouldn't be trying to further reduce crime. But the emergence of a superhero "gang" during a time when crime rates are actually relatively low makes me wonder if these guys aren't actually responding to crime, but something else.

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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Tirian » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:25 pm UTC

Arrian wrote:
Tirian wrote:In the end of the day, I'm surprised there isn't more unregulated citizen justice going on in the United States these days. I think it's a pretty rotten idea, and I have a feeling that this fellow is going to realize that misconduct isn't excused when you're not actually in the police, but I'm sure to many it has a ring a necessity in these trying times.


WHY is this fallacy constantly repeated? Violent crimes have been trending down for something like two decades.


I'm not thinking specifically of the crime rates. But the populace is concerned about terrorism and the negative effects of illegal immigration and endemic poverty and government cutbacks. At the same time, there is a rallying cry on both the left and right for "the people" to reclaim their role in community governance. In that style, I'd think that civilian neighborhood para-security militias would be appealing whether or not it's done in costume.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:19 pm UTC

It sounds like this guy was just standing outside of a bar macing drunkards. Vigilantism is bad enough, but this is really shitty vigilantism.

Note that I have no problem stopping a crime when you're already there and in a position to help. But this guy was looking for trouble, and failing to find it.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby kiklion » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:14 pm UTC

I can accept a level of 'vigilantism'. Specifically at a level lower than when police should be involved. You don't want some 12 year old getting arrested because he lashed out at another kid. I'd rather another adult near by stop the two and let them go on their ways. Or keeping aggressive drunk people away from each other. Situations where I personally feel that it would be better solved by getting the offenders to their homes rather than to the local precinct. But then again, who am I to decide.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:15 pm UTC

Well yeah, if you see that a fight might break out it's fine to deescalate, but this guy was doing the exact opposite. He saw what probably wasn't at all a fight breaking out and decided to severely escalate it.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:52 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:I'm not thinking specifically of the crime rates. But the populace is concerned about terrorism and the negative effects of illegal immigration and endemic poverty and government cutbacks. At the same time, there is a rallying cry on both the left and right for "the people" to reclaim their role in community governance. In that style, I'd think that civilian neighborhood para-security militias would be appealing whether or not it's done in costume.

But more police/militia/masked heroes doesn't address any of those concerns, it's not even related. Besides Phoenix Jones doesn't seem at all concerned with any of those issues, he's just looking for actual violent criminal acts to prevent. Understandably he probably doesn't find that many just roaming around the streets so it seems like he tried to escalate an argument (or possibly mock fight?) into something more serious.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:54 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Well yeah, if you see that a fight might break out it's fine to deescalate, but this guy was doing the exact opposite. He saw what probably wasn't at all a fight breaking out and decided to severely escalate it.

According to the alleged fighters.

It's important to remember that this case really boils down to a he-said she-said, where he is a costumed vigilante and she is a group of friends drunkenly stumbling around in front of a bar.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:10 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:According to the alleged fighters.


According to the video he took, and according to the police, and according to the witnesses.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Metaphysician » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:26 pm UTC

Only cops are allowed to pepper spray people with no legal grounds.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:42 pm UTC

Metaphysician wrote:Only cops are allowed to pepper spray people with no legal grounds.

Are you saying everyone should be able to pepper spray strangers on the street without repercussions?
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:45 pm UTC

Metaphysician wrote:Only cops are allowed to pepper spray people with no legal grounds.

Heh, well played!

There's a circulating video of this guy running into a group of people and pepper spraying individuals. I'm VERY inclined to believe that he isn't good at deescalating situations based on this video.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:17 pm UTC

Did y'all see this 13 minute video? It seems like they see a fight, and hear screaming, go to help, piss of a whole bunch of folks who beat him with shoes, leave, go get a bunch of dudes and jump him.

When 6 or 7 dudes come across the street and attack you, I think pepper spray is justified. I imagine the cops hate this guy, though, so they jail him every chance they get.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:22 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Did y'all see this 13 minute video? It seems like they see a fight, and hear screaming, go to help, piss of a whole bunch of folks who beat him with shoes, leave, go get a bunch of dudes and jump him.

I didn't have the audio, but I don't think your interpretation is supported to strongly by the video. Not really contradicted either, but the camerwork is shitty enough that I'm not sure its clear whether or not there was fighting in the crowd before he arrived. But then some crazy person decided to start attacking with a shoe.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:33 pm UTC

It sounds like screaming, at least, in the beginning. Then after the shoe beating, they chase a car about a block, after which a half-dozen bros can be seen across the street flexing and staring angrily for a few minutes. They then cross the street and attack Jones, who gets at least one of them with pepper spray.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Dauric » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:39 pm UTC

Well, using pepper-spray is his first problem. With a superhero name of Phoenix he clearly needs fire-based weapons, flamethrowers integrated in his costume and maybe a Fallout 3 Shishkebab. At the very least tape a lighter to that pepper-spray...</snark>
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:39 pm UTC

Still seems like an overreaction to a shouting match. I agree the situation isn't as clear cut as I thought
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:No disagreement as a general, but part of the reason these guys are doing what they're doing is because the police are either complacent about crime in certain areas, or understaffed and not doing their jobs.


I'm not sure it's actually true that the police are understaffed and/or 'complacent' in the U.S. And even if they were, as noted, vigilantism would not be an appropriate solution.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Tirian » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:08 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:When 6 or 7 dudes come across the street and attack you, I think pepper spray is justified.


I have a hard time believing that throwing yourself into a situation with no strategy but escalating it entitles you to a self-defense claim. If your idea (as a civilian) of breaking up a fight is incapacitating all the combatants, I think you deserve to defend yourself against an assault charge. I'll trust what the jury decides.

Dauric wrote:Well, using pepper-spray is his first problem. With a superhero name of Phoenix he clearly needs fire-based weapons


Maybe he's going for a Southwestern theme, like it's chipotle spray?
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Djehutynakht » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:06 am UTC

I like this man's 911 tape.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Роберт » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:33 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:When 6 or 7 dudes come across the street and attack you, I think pepper spray is justified.


I have a hard time believing that throwing yourself into a situation with no strategy but escalating it entitles you to a self-defense claim. If your idea (as a civilian) of breaking up a fight is incapacitating all the combatants, I think you deserve to defend yourself against an assault charge. I'll trust what the jury decides.

Ummm... did you watch the video? Rather than "throwing themselves into it with no strategy but escalation" they are running away from the thugs and yelling "stay away!". Not very batman-like and definitely not assault. He yelled "stay away, we've already called the cops" and ran away. People chased after him and attacked him. The pepper spray was clearly justified. I supposed he *could* have defended himself with martial arts, but really, he needed to defend himself and pepper spray seems *less* likely to cause broken bounds than defending himself with martial arts.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:52 pm UTC

Where do you see someone getting sprayed or thugs chasing him? I heard the cameraman shouting "Watch out!" while a drunk girl was hitting Jones with her purse (1:07-0:50) but he seemed more confused than scared. I also saw some guys running on the street in a different cut (presumably after the girl got tired of hitting him with her clutch) but it isn't clear what they were running towards and no one was shouting anything or getting pepper sprayed.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Роберт » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:00 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:Where do you see someone getting sprayed or thugs chasing him? I heard the cameraman shouting "Watch out!" while a drunk girl was hitting Jones with her purse (1:07-0:50) but he seemed more confused than scared. I also saw some guys running on the street in a different cut (presumably after the girl got tired of hitting him with her clutch) but it isn't clear what they were running towards and no one was shouting anything or getting pepper sprayed.

6:00
"Stay away, we called the cops."
*Run run*
*Guy rushes him*
*Pepper sprayed*

Also, from here
crazy drunk girl who whacked PJ with her shoes wrote:We were [...] walking down to our parking lot after having a good time in Seattle, when a[n] argument broke out between our group and the other group [...]
She's trying to trivialize it, but clearly they weren't just "dancing and having a good time" even from her own testimony.
Last edited by Роберт on Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:05 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:04 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:Where do you see someone getting sprayed or thugs chasing him?

6:00 in the long video you see them saying "Stay away from us, we're calling the cops. Stay away, stay away." And a guy runs up on Phoenix and he sprays him. Then his friends surround Phoenix and attack him.
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Re: "Superhero" Phoenix Jones arrested

Postby Роберт » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:07 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
maybeagnostic wrote:Where do you see someone getting sprayed or thugs chasing him?

6:00 in the long video you see them saying "Stay away from us, we're calling the cops. Stay away, stay away." And a guy runs up on Phoenix and he sprays him. Then his friends surround Phoenix and attack him.

For a mixed martial artist, surprisingly few people end up hurt. Probably because PJ is using significant restraint. A sign that he doesn't have a penchant for "beating up bad guys".

He quite effectively broke up the argument at the beginning except for the whole pissing people of enough that they decide to assault him bit.

Edit: can someone explain to me why the cops took his mask for evidence? I don't get what evidence they think they'll find. Or are they just being petty little ducks?
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