Lataro's Fun Game of Fun Game Over: Town (Finally) Wins!

[ForAllOfThis]

Exorcists do not have day chat. We are not masons and do not know who each other are (hence why if we target one another we die).

Unvote

Obviously less suspicous of Webby now. Although his own arguments against me being scum, apply to himself now. There is also the wine surrounding the fact that he was shouting off that exorcist is the best scum claim, then goes on to claim it .

I think bantler has an excellent point about GoP, almost good enough for a vote. I'm not sure if greenlover knows the mechanics of the game either, unless a third exorcist claims me and Webby are sort of confirmed town (two players have just been modkilled, so obviously won't be able to counterclaim). I've made the mistake of lynching bantler in the past because of his newbiness, so I'm willing to let his gameplay slide for now (based solely on the fact he is providing content).

Vote: GoP

[Gopher of Pern]

My bad play has come back to bite me in the ass.

I honestly thought I'd be dead today. I thought I was going to be lynched in the other game, and that would affect me in this game, which is why I didn't give too much thought to who I would vote for yesterday. As it turned out, it saved my skin, though it didn't really matter who I voted for, as long as I voted for Adam or FAOT. So I flipped a coin, because I really didn't know who was scummier.

At this stage, I don't actually think any of the people voting for me are scum. But scum are laughing.

Vote: mpolo

They have been sneaking under the radar all game, and their last post indicates that they have not really been paying attention. Hopefully the 2 modkills are scum as well.

[BoomFrog]

I agree with the scum is sitting back laughing assesment. And Silknor is the worst offender. I'm not getting any good scum reads off anyone except FOAT still. But I'd rather wait until tomorrow to see the roles of the modkilled before we lynch FOAT as he may actually be an exorcist. I'd rather eliminate silknor now because if he is alive at endgame we're going to be stuck with nothing but a wild guess at his alignment.

Vote Silknor

[Silknor]

So your position is you'd rather vote for someone who is less likely to be scum in order to give town better odds in the lategame? I admit, it's bold.

I've indicated who I think should be lynched (Adam H) and why (trying to convince town to ignore mafia, followed with lies/dodges about what he was saying and why, combined with sudden change in perspective on the issue).

[mpolo]

* Facepalm *

I still don't like complete tying of the vigilante's hands (because we as town could essentially force him to commit suicide if our target is wrong, and that would not be FUN for the vigilante player), but you are obviously correct that the mafia has no special way of knowing who has that role. I don't know why I thought they did.

More later -- I want to grade some exams before class.

[BoomFrog]

So your position is you'd rather vote for someone who is less likely to be scum in order to give town better odds in the lategame? I admit, it's bold.

As I said I don't have a good read on anyone. The one's I find scummiest will be either confirmed or outed tomorrow so are not a good lynch. So you are equally likely to be scum as anyone I'm willing to vote for right now.

Also, since I'm confirmed town, and I have slightly more information then the vig I should probably pick a target for the vig. It would be embarrasing and sad if the vig went after my partner. I'll have to think on that more.

[Adam H]

I've indicated who I think should be lynched (Adam H) and why (trying to convince town to ignore mafia, followed with lies/dodges about what he was saying and why, combined with sudden change in perspective on the issue).

1) Your logic for voting me is crap. Not only do I know you're wrong, I know why you voted for me - you think I'm an easy lynch. (I probably am, but no matter!) 2) You ignore every post in the last long while, but you're keeping good enough tabs on the game that you can respond to a vote on you before anyone else can post. And a minor #3: you aren't a cop.

Unvote

Vote: Silknor


It seems to me like we have two playstyles. One group is GoP, Bantler, and FOAT (and myself I suppose) who post a lot and can seem abrasive or scummy, and the other is weiyaoli, mpolo, silknor and greenlover who have been more silent and hard to get a read on. I have no idea which is worse.

[bantler]

Also, since I'm confirmed town, and I have slightly more information then the vig I should probably pick a target for the vig. It would be embarrasing and sad if the vig went after my partner. I'll have to think on that more.

No. I don’t trust your judgment.
We are going to tie the vigilante's hands in a democratic fashion. If your partner (or the person he cleared) is leading in the polls I expect you'll pop in and tell us to "back-off". We have to write the name on the bullet in public to prevent an avoidable slip. The second lynchee should at least get a chance to defend themselves. Scum will have to Lie or Die .

My vig vote is still tentatively on Adam H. I do agree with him that we are following the classic tradition of Kill the Active. I’ll reconsider today.
Lurkers Live; Posters Hang.

[weiyaoli]

* Facepalm *

I still don't like complete tying of the vigilante's hands (because we as town could essentially force him to commit suicide if our target is wrong, and that would not be FUN for the vigilante player), but you are obviously correct that [b]the mafia has no special way of knowing who has that role[/b]. I don't know why I thought they did.

More later -- I want to grade some exams before class.

They do. The scum rolecop. What is strange is that town should have no certainty about whether scum could have received information on who the vig is.

Vote: mpolo

[Adam H]

Woah good catch wei, that definitely strikes me as a huge scum slip rather than town just forgetting that we didn't know who vig is. And if mpolo really is mafia, then mafia knows who vig is and so we can't just sic vig after him.

Unvote

Vote: mpolo

Also, since I'm confirmed town, and I have slightly more information then the vig I should probably pick a target for the vig. It would be embarrasing and sad if the vig went after my partner. I'll have to think on that more.

No. I don’t trust your judgment.
We are going to tie the vigilante's hands in a democratic fashion. If your partner (or the person he cleared) is leading in the polls I expect you'll pop in and tell us to "back-off". We have to write the name on the bullet in public to prevent an avoidable slip. The second lynchee should at least get a chance to defend themselves. Scum will have to Lie or Die .

Yeah, we definitely want everyone to pick a vig target. I went back and forth on this, but for now I'm convinced that committing now to a democratic decision is the best fhing to do.

I vote for vig to kill mpolo (if he's not lynched), then Silknor, then Bantler.

[bantler]

They do. The scum rolecop. What is strange is that town should have no certainty about whether scum could have received information on who the vig is.

Woah good catch wei, that definitely strikes me as a huge scum slip rather than town just forgetting that we didn't know who vig is. And if mpolo really is mafia, then mafia knows who vig is and so we can't just sic vig after him.

WHOA WHOA DOUBLE WHOA

I don't know mpolo well enough to know if he's deviously conniving (I hope he is!) but his statement implies that he doesn't really understand all the mechanical details of the mafia. He may well be playing us to throw the scent, but I'm reading him as fairly ingenuous.
Mafia role cop would’ve been a gutsy action with the Cultist loose on d1, but they’ll certainly be blindly gunning for him tonight if we target them. We can and should still sic'm. Worst case they redirect and he kills himself.

And I’ve rethought my position on Mafia targets. I’d say they might go after the Exorcists. They know they won’t get Culted, and it keeps all the trees in the Medic-Forest they’ll be hiding in. Medics can choose between protecting the Cop or Exorcists to prevent Culting.

My vig kill target remains on Adam H.

[mpolo]

In this particular case, it's pretty ingenuous -- since I'm not mafia, I'm not spending a lot of time meditating on what the mafia's powers are. When I was told that I was wrong that the mafia could know who the vig was by other players, I just accepted it.

[Adam H]

Not quite sure what you two are talking about. I can't even tell if Bantler is defending mpolo or agreeing with wei and I...

Mpolo didn't make a single statement so much as a long extended assumption that mafia knew who the vig was. At first I had no idea why he would think that, but then wei brought up the point that there is a scum cop, which I forgot about. So it makes sense to me that mpolo would have known who vig was for the past week or so, and just forgot that everyone else didn't know.

At least, that seems much more likely than anything else. The town explanation would be that mpolo spaced out so much that he assumed that mafia knew who vig was?

[Lataro]

Votals:

Adam H - 1 - (Silknor)
GoP - 1 (bantler, FAOT)
FAOT - 1 - (greenlover)
mpolo - 3 -(GoP, weiyaoli, Adam H)
Silknor - 1 - (BoomFrog)

Deadline in... Crap... *Checks unfun game* *does math poorly*

Screw it, Monday, ~5:30 PM EST.

Lorenz and Metabot will have their roles revealed at the start of the next day. greenlover will be modkilled and have his role revealed then as well if he doesn't post before day's end saying he isn't going to drop out.

[mpolo]

The town explanation would be that mpolo spaced out so much that he assumed that mafia knew who vig was?

This is the case -- note that I am not trying to lead a lynch for the vig (or for anyone, for that matter), and I am not trying to force the vig to kill the people I want him to kill.

[webby]

Having considered it, I now think that the vig shouldn't listen to anyone about who to kill except maybe Boomfrog. We can trust Boomfrog not to have been culted given he told his partner that he was withholding his action. We have either four or five people out of twelve who have the motivation to send the vig kill the wrong way. Given this, I think it should be up to the vig, possibly in conjunction with Boomfrog, to decide who to kill for themself.

I'll look at who's scummy and who to vote for later, we still have time.

[webby]

EBWOP: Having read back, I think Boomfrog is right when he says that he should have the final say on who the vig should kill, because he's confirmed town and has the most information.

[ForAllOfThis]

Hold on a minute, what if Boomfrog has been recruited? Or what if the detective has been recruited and is feeding false information. BF said the detective used his power last night, and we can't be 100% sure that BF didnt risk using his power (and maybe got himself redirected to cult, especially as he was claimed and so pro to using powers). A better idea would be to have you publically confirm town for the player that was copped last night (but not give role details). Your claimed already so there is no extra risk in doing this. The vigilante can then use that information to make a decision, and we know it's not being controlled by possible cult.

I feel like Wei & Adam have somehow twisted mpolo's confusion to make him look scummy. It's an easy enough mistake to make with the redirect powers, thinking that they're used on the person being targetted rather than the person doing the targetting. Especially suspicous about Adam's vote, it's exetremely bandwagony (and quick).

[Gopher of Pern]

Hold on a minute, what if Boomfrog has been recruited? Or what if the detective has been recruited and is feeding false information. BF said the detective used his power last night, and we can't be 100% sure that BF didnt risk using his power (and maybe got himself redirected to cult, especially as he was claimed and so pro to using powers). A better idea would be to have you publically confirm town for the player that was copped last night (but not give role details). Your claimed already so there is no extra risk in doing this. The vigilante can then use that information to make a decision, and we know it's not being controlled by possible cult.

I feel like Wei & Adam have somehow twisted mpolo's confusion to make him look scummy. It's an easy enough mistake to make with the redirect powers, thinking that they're used on the person being targetted rather than the person doing the targetting. Especially suspicous about Adam's vote, it's exetremely bandwagony (and quick).

If Boomfrog or the detective have been recruited, how would this method help us, as they will likely feed us false information?

[ForAllOfThis]

If BF has been recruited, he can't give us false public information because the detective will know its a lie. If the detective has been recruited, then there's little difference but we have more chance of discovering it as a group. The main thing is we're not placing a risky vigilante kill in the hands of cult. Speaking of which for all those wanting to vote for the kill:

We had 12 players so worse case scenario right now is that we have 9 players after the modkills if we did have a town recruit last night then we're at 3/2/4 meaning town have a minority compared to both scum factions. Right now scum might have such a large percentage of the vote I think it's wiser to let the vigilante decide the kill.

[mpolo]

That is truly a scary thought. The only good news is that the cult can't really coordinate with the mafia (except by opportunism). Hopefully we are better off than that, though.

Your line about a possibly recruited BF being unable to spread false information would only apply if both of them targeted the same person (as you were advocating for Night 2), right? I am more inclined to think that he has not been recruited, but we have to be open to the possibility.

Question for you all: With the large number of deaths, is it in our advantage to lynch?

My reasoning:

Spoiler:

If FAOT's pessimistic numbers are true, then in the night, the Vig will strike:

if he hits town, then we are 1/2/4 without considering the cult or the mafia. (Here mafia would likely withhold powers for the win, assuming the vig target were publicly declared.)

If he hits cultmember, then we are 3/1/4. Here the mafia will most likely kill, making 2/1/4 for the win (unless they hit cult).

If he hits cultleader, then we are 2 / 3 /4 -- we might have a chance there by playing mafia against cult, but it's a long shot.

If he hits mafia, then it's 3 / 2 / 3 with a much better chance for us to pull this off.

(There are a lot of powers and such that I'm ignoring here. Some make it better, some make it worse.)

My answer: We have to lynch, and we really need to hit scum. We should consider this an undeclared MyLo, at least until we know the alignments of the modkills tomorrow.

(Which wasn't a lot of content for you all, but it made things clear to me of how we stand, at least.)

[weiyaoli]

I don't understand though, didn't BF claim some time ago that he told his partner that he would not target anyone? Lataro is generally hot about mod killing people for playing against his faction and lying about that would qualify. I guess it's not 100% guarantee, but with lataro modding I do think it's very likely that BF is telling the truth.

If we go by the route that BF is lying about that statement, then I think the only possibility is that both of the masons targeted the cult leader so that his partner would not want to step up and reveal any lies. (Which is also possible I guess but much less likely).

But I also support the revealing of the target.

[Lataro]

Nope, lying in thread is totally cool. Feel free, I won't modkill for something like that.

[Adam H]

If BF did tell his mason-buddy that he would not target anyone, I don't see how he could target anyone with a clean conscience. These games are run on the honor code, and I think BF has more honor than to play so obviously against his faction like that. If the detective said that BF said he was going to target someone, then that would be a different story. But since detective has not accused BF of lying, I think there is basically a 100% chance that BF has not been recruited.

There's a much better chance that detective has been recruited, but since BF has not given us the detective's target and result, I doubt very much that detective targeted anyone, so I think there's a negligible chance that detective was recruited.

There's zero chance that they are both culted. Cult can only get 1 recruit per night.

And ANYWAYS, cult wants mafia dead, too, and if BF or detective are culted then they will have significantly more info than us on who mafia is. So having culted cop decide who vig should kill is about as good as having regular cop decide who to kill. And if we're not going to all vote on a vig target (apparently we aren't since no one has), then BF should definitely pick. The benefit of the democratic decision would be that the scum are pressured into voting twice, in effect.


unvote

There are only 3 mafia, mpolo. If you are mafia, that was a brilliant move, but I'm guessing now that you are just too busy to pay attention to this game.

Vote: Silknor

[greenlover]

Well, now I feel stupid.

Unvote

A see a lot of votes on mpolo right now, but I don't think he has done anything that I myself haven't done (IE: make incredibly stupid mistakes which aren't necessarily scummy because they are so obvious.). The two votes on Silknor are either because he's a lurker or just plain OMGUS. I'm going to vote GoP, because he really hasn't done much to change my opinions of him from D1 (or from my last post, for that matter) and he is more lurky than AdamH.

Vote: GoP

greenlover will be modkilled and have his role revealed then as well if he doesn't post before day's end saying he isn't going to drop out.

I can't guarantee that I will not drop out in some point in the future. However, since the number of games I'm in are steadily decreasing, I should be able to invest more time into the remaining games I'm in, assuming nothing unexpected happens.

[mpolo]

Sorry. Things have just been chaotic for me in the last few days, and I'm not being complete enough in my reading. I have no idea why I was convinced that there were four mafia in that last post. If you had directly asked me how many mafia there are, I would have said three. But I pretty obviously wrote four there.

RE: playing against faction. If someone were culted, they would no longer be "in the same faction". But the alleged lie to a teammate would have been before that culting had taken place, so it's a valid point. On the other hand, it would be possible for him to say that he is planning not to target anyone, and suddenly get a brilliant (or ill-advised) idea during the night and change his mind. I don't think that that would be considered playing against faction for anyone.

[ForAllOfThis]

I doubt BF would have lied to his partner (and I'm not sure how that assumption was made). My concern would be more along the lines that BF's action wasn't discussed (because of his claim that day) and then decided to risk it last night. Then it doesn't matter what he told his partner today.

For the record, I think this scenario is highly unlikely (unlikely odds) but I think it's safer for us to let the vig pick the target with the information provided by BF. On top of that we get a confirmed townie which makes both the lynch and night actions easier.

[BoomFrog]

I told my partner during D1 that I wouldn't use my action. Using my action would have been very reckless as it's probably about 50/50 that the recruiter would target me N1 since he knows I have a power and very few other roles were likely to use thier power N1.

As for my partner's result, they targeted GoP but either got a "town" result or a "no targets" result. I'd rather not say which of the two becuase I'd like to keep the mafia guessing which cop I am. For the record we decided my partner would target GoP during D1 so they wouldn't be lying about thier target. So if GoP turns out to be the recruiter then my partner is cult right now.

@Silknor: you could convince me not to vote for you if you gave your opinion on each of the other players instead of only giving one scummy assesment. If I like your thought process then I may trust that you are town.

@FOAT: I so want to lynch you right now, if you turn out to be confirmed town D3 I will just toss my hands in the air and say "wtf?".

[BoomFrog]

I think it's safer for us to let the vig pick the target with the information provided by BF. On top of that we get a confirmed townie which makes both the lynch and night actions easier.

GoP could still easily be the Godfather/mafioso who withheld his actions, so he's not confirmed, but yeah I'd say the vig should not target him. But I also know one other person who is confirmed town. The only way to make sure the vig doesn't target that person is for me to reveal my partner or for me to pick the vig target.

No. I don’t trust your judgment.

If the vig doesn't trust my judgement they can make their own decision but I'm a fairly experienced player and my judgement is certainly better then a "democratic" vote from a group containing the mafia. On the other hand I would like to hear everyone's idea's on who to target. More content is more content.

[webby]

Ok, probably time to vote. Possibilities I've considered are greenlover, mpolo, Silknor, Adam H, GoP.

greenlover has explained why they're lurky. I still put them as reasonably neutral, with unfortunately not much to go on. Made some mistakes on the set-up, but so have most people by now. Not going to vote here unless no better option.

I'm not really seeing the scumminess with mpolo's 'slip', given the amount of mistakes people have made with the setup. I can believe he got mixed up and thought that scum can redirect by targeting the target rather than the originator.

Silknor usually gives very little to go off and this is no exception.

Adam H I thought was scummy enough to vote for yesterday. He's been pretty opinionated and supported me in arguments today - he feels more like normal Adam H. Bandwagon on mpolo I don't really like though.

Currently it's 2-2-2 between mpolo, Silknor and GoP.

I'm going to go for Silknor, partly because I agree with the assessment that scum are sitting back and being lurky, partly because Boomfrog approves and he's (almost) confirmed town with more information than I have and partly because he might finally come and give us some content.

Vote: Silknor

[mpolo]

This post seems to be pretty level-headed. I want to give Silknor a chance to respond / produce content though, so will be looking back later.

BoomFrog does seem to be townie. I would agree that we should try to give suggestions to him for a vig target and let him make a recommendation of the vig target. I suppose there's a small danger there that his partner will have the most "votes", so that when BoomFrog reveals his pick, it will make it obvious who his partner is.

The (apparently) combined lynch between the fun and not-fun game is probably going to throw a lot of wrenches into this whole thing, but since we don't know the lynch mechanism, we really can't defend against it, either.

[Gopher of Pern]

Well, as the targeted player, I can now be confident that neither cops have been recruited. Which is good news. I also agree with BF recommending the vig kill, as the vig will then know that player is not a cop, though it is still obviously up to the vig to decide who to kill.

Unvote

Mpolo, your numbers seem a bit off. They are supposed to be town/cult/mafia, right? You do know theres only 3 mafia members?

Running through the numbers myself:

We have 10 players (2 modkills)
Worse case scenario is:
6/1/3 (Town/Cult/Scum)
Vig mishits:
4/1/3 (Town loses majority) (Scum also have a kill)
Vig hits cult leader:
5/2/3 (Scum have kill)
Vig and scum hit cult leader or Vig hits scum:
6/1/2 (Scum have a kill)

The Vig needs to get it right tonight.

[mpolo]

Somebody pointed out my total fail on numbers a little while ago. I still think we have to lynch, but it is less hopeless than it looked when I posted that.

[BoomFrog]

I would agree that we should try to give suggestions to him for a vig target and let him make a recommendation of the vig target.

Deadline's a commin. Any recommendations?

[ForAllOfThis]

Exercising a little caution and common sense does not paint me as scum, BF. I know from games past that mason chat can be both a little one sided, or not used that often, and as I don't have access to your mason chat then I can't make the same assumptions that you can.

Although I do feel a little more comfortable about you making a suggestion for the kill now BF. It will obviously be up to the vig to follow it or not.

If town becomes a minority

[ForAllOfThis]

EBWOP:

Unfinished posts <.<

If town becomes a minority and scum & cult are left standing we could still win but we would have to be really lucky.

[mpolo]

I am really having a hard time getting a bead on anybody.

[spoiler="Very Limited Reread"]
bantler has gone from very active to fairly quiet. I assume this is real-world related. He's aggressive, which is good, and abrasive, which makes me read him worse than he probably is.

GoP has been fairly quiet. Day one he was strongly in favor of not using powers, which would be anti-cult, maybe slightly pro-mafia. Unwittingly tied the vote at the end of Day One.

Silknor was being fairly helpful on day one, and has since disappeared.

BoomFrog is pretty clearly townie. As he uses his power, we will have to watch to make sure he doesn't change on us, but tonight is safe unless he targets the wrong person.

webby: has not really stuck out much at all to me. One to watch on reread.

AdamH: was fairly neutral day one -- a couple of posts seemed unusual, content was a little low, but he was less adamant about the use of powers (i.e. caution advised, but decide for yourself).

FAOT: claimed exorcist

webby: claimed exorcist
[/spoiler]

BoomFrog, I really don't know. I am going to suggest lynching Silknor and vigging GoP. (GoP was almost certainly not cult on day one, because he was very strong on not using any powers under any circumstances.)

What do you think? [I should be on again this evening.]

[mpolo]

EBWOP: Just imagine that I used correct tag syntax.

[bantler]

No. I don’t trust your judgment.

If the vig doesn't trust my judgement they can make their own decision but I'm a fairly experienced player and my judgement is certainly better then a "democratic" vote from a group containing the mafia. On the other hand I would like to hear everyone's idea's on who to target. More content is more content.

I’m ok with you posting a public opinion about whom to vig kill, and I don’t care if the vigilante weighs your vote more heavily than other people. But, the kill target has to be public. If the shot misses we can target the Cultist with Exorcism or lynch.

I feel pretty good about your partner clearing GOP as cultist (I expect he'd act to try to convert last night).
But all three mafia may well have held their actions...so those are possible.

[bantler]

BoomFrog, I really don't know. I am going to suggest lynching Silknor and vigging GoP. (GoP was almost certainly not cult on day one, because he was very strong on not using any powers under any circumstances.)

What do you think? [I should be on again this evening.]

As I said before; it's perfectly fine for the vigilante to target the Cult if it's public.