Mafia New Year's Event - Planning / Discussion

[Krong]

<This post will be updated as we start making decisions>

Judging by the meta thread, there seems to be some interest, so let's do this thing!

WHAT:
A big Mafia subforum event to try to get new people involved and old people to come back.

• We pick a date, maybe 1-2 months from now (around the New Year, perhaps?)
• We enlist several mods to start a variety of games starting on that date. Definitely would want at least 1 or 2 simple/vanilla games in there.
• We advertise around the forum -- i.e., have in our signatures links (with pictures!) that go to the event thread.
• Theme? Sure, if we can think of one!

Basically, for those of you who play TF2, something like their Halloween or class update events -- get people excited, bring them in (or back in).

WHEN:
Suggested so far (all dates 2012):

• Jan 15th or earlier
• Chinese New Year - Jan. 23rd
• Leap Day - Feb. 29th

THEME:
Possibilities so far:

• Chinese New Year
• 2012 Doomsday
• Things from this page?
• No theme

The theme could just be so we have a name for the event, or it could be something tied in with the themes of the games we'll have going.

GAMES:
Since this event is focused on getting new people, we should err on the side of vanilla/simple setups. However, it would be great if we also got people back who haven't played for awhile, so having something big and complex would also be cool. We're going to have to work out how this interacts with the mod queuing system, though last I checked the queues aren't too full. It might not end up being an issue.

As a starting point, what about:

2 micro games (7 player max): 1 vanilla, 1 resistance
2 small games (8-12 players): 1 semi-open vanilla, 1 closed with simple roles
1 mediumish game (13-18): closed with somewhat more complex roles, or open and complicated (Wizardry?)
1 largish game (19+): big ol' complicated mess

SUGGESTIONS SO FAR - Resistance should have 10 players. Wizardry is not a simple enough game.

We could also just copy the current queue guidelines and fill it up with games, just syncing everything up to start around the chosen date.

Of course, a lot of this is going to depend on what kind of interest we get, which might be tough to gauge until we get closer in.

OTHER:
Once we have a plan, someone with art skillz (read: not me) should make some graphics for advertising purposes.

[Krong]

THINGS WE'LL BE DOING

Games
Resistance (7 or 10 players) - webby or jayhsu
...

Other
Revamp the standard rules
Advertise in sigs
Invite people
...

[Gopher of Pern]

I might put my Hogwarts game in there, as I can make it pretty newbie friendly, despite some different mechanics. Spoilered for Details: (Open Setup, so it wont matter if you look.

Spoiler:

Basically, everyone one is split into the 4 houses: Griffindor, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Slytherin. Houses need to be even, so 8, 12 or 16 players are preferred. You have mason chat, day and night, with the people in your house.

The game has a points system, and every point you gain goes to your house. There is a secondary win condition for being in the house with the most points at the end of the game. In addition, at the end of each day, whichever house earned the most points during that day gets a special ability for use the next day. I was thinking along the lines of an extra 'house vote'. To earn points, simply post. Each post earns one point to your house. Double posts only count as one, and if 2 people start having a conversation in thread to rack up points, they will earn nothing. So it is subject to the mods discretion. Also, you get points for having a vote on at the end of the day.

Mafia will be entirely random, so they could be from different houses, or all in the same house. They only have the night kill.

I was thinking that power roles could actually be split along house lines too, so that each house is a power role, and players vote at night on how to use their power.
If this game is being targeted at new players, I can always 'seed' the experienced players in the houses, so that there is at least one per house.

Pros: New people will have experienced players in their house, so can easily get advice and guidance.
No confusing roles.
A system that encourages posting.

Cons: Could be confusing for scum players, as they will have 2 separate private chats going on.

Any feedback, or if you dont think it will be appropriate for the Event, please say!

[webby]

I agree resistance would be a good game for new players, but I reckon the 10 player version is better than the 7 player one. I'd be happy to run it if jayhsu isn't around.

[roband]

I agree about resistance being a good one to include. It certainly shows a different slant to the standard 'known' mafia game.

For purely personal reasons (I'm taking a 3 or 4 day holiday just after chinese new year), I would like to put forward the 29th February as a start date!
Something like,
JUMP into Mafia this LEAP year!

Maybe just gimmicky enough to stick in peoples' heads.#

edit: I would also suggest that wizardry might not be a good starting point for a lot of people. Maybe aiming to run a Wizardry game after these games could work? "oh, you enjoyed mafia? Then take it to a whole new level of confusion and logic and not being clever enough to beat EP"

[AngrySquirrel]

I agree with Roband on Wizardry not being the best game to use as a starting point.

[BoomFrog]

We're not going to be able to accommodate everyone's schedules, let's stick to about 2 months from now. Feb 29th is too late.

I could run scales of justice or a C9 game. But what makes this event better and special? Maybe we should make it a tournament or have a meta game running forum wide somehow? Like if your alive at the end of the game then you get to join a finale game after all the games wrap up. Or the winning side picks an MVP to go on to the finale.

Or if you die you are given a role and added to an "underworld game" that starts small but adds new players each day.

[roband]

We're not going to be able to accommodate everyone's schedules, let's stick to about 2 months from now. Feb 29th is too late.

Sure, it was just an idea. I don't know what makes it 'too late' though. We're not on a deadline or anything.

[Gopher of Pern]

Its not about having some meta game, its about rejuvenating the player base, and getting new and old players back into mafia. We want more players and mods, and advertising around the forums is the best way to do it. Even advertising around other forums could be useful.

[BoomFrog]

I suppose, but in that case its kinda counter productive to have a bunch of games all start simultaneously. The rolling format accommodates deaths better. Maybe we should just set some signups but stagger the games start dates? I think the main thing is the advertising.

The reason I say Feb is too late is because I'd rather revitalize things earlier rather then later. Ideally the momentum holds and you can return from your break to meet a thriving forum.

BTW I think we should update the how to play intro thread. I recall it not helping that much with current usages of the term Wine and maybe other things.

[ForAllOfThis]

I still think we should start a leaderboard (based on wins) with the following format -

Overall:

1. X - 6 wins
2. Y - 4 wins
3. Z - 2 Wins

Scum

1. Y - 3 Wins
2. X - 2 wins

Town

1. X - 4 Wins
2, Y - 1 Wins

Independent

1. Z - 2 wins

Or something similar to that. Keep it as a rolling leaderboard so anyone can add to it when they win a game. I think it would add a little bit of competition and keep track of how successful new players and old players are. Just an idea - I'll go back to trying to keep up with the games I'm in now.

Edit: We should trial it with the event specific games and if it proves popular then we can use it.

[Adam H]

I agree that it shouldn't be about a meta game, but that doesn't mean there can't be some sort of over-arching mechanic that makes the event an Event. I think a big thing to think about is how to hold people's attention once they die. Dying can be frustrating and it could be a defense mechanism for newbs to just say "this is stupid" and raegquaat. The easy solution would be to stagger the games so dead players could just join another game.

What if there was one game without signups that players hop in the middle of when they die in one of the main games? Can't imagine how that would work, but you guys are smarter than me so I'll throw it out there.

This is more extreme, but here's another idea: what if the signups were sort of automated? Players signup for the "Event" and then are just put into games. Once they die in a game, they are automatically put into the signups for the next game, which starts as soon as it has enough people who have died. And if a player no longer wants to play, they can just drop out of the event, and the next dead player can be their replacement.

SHUT UP THERE ARE NO STUPID IDEAS WHEN YOU'RE BRAINSTORMING

[weiyaoli]

Maybe there could be something dead players could do that would have an effect on the game, so that they still feel part of the game going on, instead of detached if they die early. (Obviously they would not be able to look at spoilers in that case).

e.g. all dead players control a public cop and must discuss to use it.

Would need some balancing of course.

Or something like E_P's bastard game with two game threads and one had people not playing in (which could easily be for dead people instead)/that weird game that had one half in a phantom reality and the other half in reality and where if you died in one thread you just moved to the next thread and then death so that you had to be killed twice to actually die.

[bantler]

A few thoughts from a transient:

An event needs Focus; not overchoice.

All six games would be indistinguishable for most new players, and I suspect you’d just spread everyone thin. One, maybe two games should be plenty. There should be a balance of complexity. Vanilla is too boring and bastardry can be extremely frustrating. You may want to consider a hyper-turbo, days/nights that last 24 or 48 hours. 24 is the standard in most forums and it keeps people interested/posting every day for about a week. The standard set-up here at XKCD is to have zero PM ability outside of masons and mafia. Again, open communication is standard in other forums and tends to keep people involved. Some forums even set-up off-site side-forums just for private mafia chat.

If you want to cross pollinate a few other forums, you may consider a Massive World Event that includes their games as well. This would entail other participating Forums to host games that XKCD would be invited to participate in.

A standardized Basic Mafia Rules should be drawn up. Maybe your current rules are fine, but they are tucked away and a bit dry.

[Adam H]

For the record, I disagree with most everything Bantler said.

A good thing to do would be to estimate how many xkcders we could get and how many would play multiple games. I would guess 30-40 players in 50-70 game slots, but I don't know.

Stealing this idea from GoP's Hogwarts game: what if everyone playing in the event was part of a team/house, and the mods of each game could hand out (or deduct) points for whatever they want, like winning the game or just voting for scum or making a good post.

[roband]

Stealing this idea from GoP's Hogwarts game: what if everyone playing in the event was part of a team/house, and the mods of each game could hand out (or deduct) points for whatever they want, like winning the game or just voting for scum or making a good post.

Fuckin' great idea. Can I be in charge of points for grammar?!! Unlucky FAOT

Seriously, I like that idea.

[ForAllOfThis]

Haha. Wouldn't it be more fun to deduct points for correct grammar, and gives points for poor grammar.

[roband]

Haha. Wouldn't it be more fun to deduct points for correct grammar, and gives points for poor grammar.

Minus 10 points.

You missed the question mark from the end of your sentence

[Krong]

The random points idea is awesome, though I wouldn't like it if it starts influencing people to do things that are bad for their win condition in each game. (We had this talk awhile ago about a Meta-Game.) I think we could manage it if points are pretty much given out for "play well and keep things fun."

GoP: Comments on your setup:

Spoiler:

The Political Parties game I'm signed up to mod sounds somewhat similar -- basically, everyone will (optionally) be in a political party, and each party will have certain powers/restrictions. Each party will have full daychat (game is basically nightless) and vote on the use of their powers. Mafia will participate, of course, and also have their own chat and kill.

Two problems I've come across that you would want to address if you have something similar in Hogwarts are:

• Random chance distribution of mafia could easily lead to an imbalance at the start of the game that doesn't get undone.
• Mafia should have a way to subvert / destroy pro-town powers, since straight-up killing power roles isn't possible.

Also, if you have a post system based on posting quality/quantity, people WILL try to game it. You're going to have to insert yourself into the discussion pretty subjectively. It can work, though, definitely.

bantler: I disagree with a lot of what you're suggesting, as well, but let me try to explain why:

Spoiler:

First, I've taken a look from time to time at the mafia played here vs. a few other places (Mafiascum, Bay12), so I understand what you mean when saying it's very different here. My impression of the other places is that it's very rapid-fire, shoot-from-the-hip kind of stuff, with lots of relatively short posts coming in hourly. That is certainly more exciting and fast-paced. For me, though, it's bad, because I literally could not play if all games were like that... they don't fit in my schedule. Plus, the style of mafia games is obviously going to reflect the style of the forum, and the XKCD forumites tend to be a bit... umm.... wordily argumentative. Just look at SB and the constant definition-wars there.

It basically comes down to choices of game style. Just because other places do it one way doesn't mean we should do it that way. And I don't mean that in terms of "Yeah, XKCDMafia is *special*, everyone else sucks!", because having slower games might contribute to problems like the playerbase thinning out. But when you say things like "everyone should be able to communicate freely, and maybe through another site"... that comes down to style, not better or worse. The first point requires different thinking about balance to keep certain breaking strategies* out of play, though we've basically done it in several games (anon-PMing is like free-PMing++). On the second point, folks generally want the games contained within the forum, I think mostly so they don't have several websites to be visiting.

* Came up from RL mafia (open game, 1 cop, no millers etc.) - Players A and B are sitting next to each other. A is cop, cops B on night 1. If B comes up town, A whispers "I'm cop, I know you're town. I'll tell you my cop results, and when the time comes, you claim cop and tell my results." B then falseclaims cop, gets out the information (including "A is town"), probably gets nightkilled. Mafia is disappointed that A was able to use B as a meatshield, and A lives on to get new results.

I'm updating the first post with suggestions as they roll in, and I'll use the second to keep track of people who say they'd be willing to do stuff.

[ConMan]

Sounds like fun - will there be some scheduled IRC games as well (for those who want to try something a bit faster)?

I'm trying to think whether some kind of "mentor mafia" would work - essentially newbies and mentors are paired up, probably like mason lovers. The mentors may also have some kind of restriction to stop them from dominating the game.

[BoomFrog]

Or if you die you are given a role and added to an "underworld game" that starts small but adds new players each day.

What if there was one game without signups that players hop in the middle of when they die in one of the main games?

So you like my idea then?

Underworld semi-open setup:

Spoiler:

The game will start when there are 5 dead players from other games. It is nightless and D2 will start when there are 3 new players to add, whever that is. There is one scum recruiter among the starting 5 players. The new players are by default town. The recruiter has a once per day recruit power. Every day after the first day scum has a day kill as well, but cannot target a player who joined that day. If the recruiter dies then the oldest cultest gains control of the powers. Scum win if they get a majority, town wins if they eliminate the cult.

Maybe add some more powers if this is too boring?

I like the apolcolyspe theme. I'd be down with every game being related to the end of the world in some fasion. My post apoloclyse idea:

Spoiler:

Every player starts with one steel. At any time you can give any items you have to another player by PMing the mod. Also you can convert 3 steal into a sword, 3 steal into a shield, or 1 steal into a spear. A sword gives you a night kill. A shield gives you NK immunity, and a spear when used with a kill power destroys a shield. Spears are destroyed when used reguardless of weither the defender had a shield or not. If you die your items are lost.

I figure town will give some of it's steal to scum accedentally, and scum will get a 2nd NK, however town will probably negate a few NK's by use of shields. If scum screw up and run out of spears they could lose because they can't kill the remaining town with shields. I can think of a load of powers to add to this game, but I think I'll run it mostly vanilla for the first try.

Any advice on the above two setup's? And also importantly, if I do decide to make it semi-closed or closed, anyone want to volunteer to halp me balance things?

Lastly, I think we should have some of the current players hold back from signing up so they can replace in since a bunch of new players are going to be unreliable.

[Gopher of Pern]

GoP: Comments on your setup:

Spoiler:

The Political Parties game I'm signed up to mod sounds somewhat similar -- basically, everyone will (optionally) be in a political party, and each party will have certain powers/restrictions. Each party will have full daychat (game is basically nightless) and vote on the use of their powers. Mafia will participate, of course, and also have their own chat and kill.

Two problems I've come across that you would want to address if you have something similar in Hogwarts are:

• Random chance distribution of mafia could easily lead to an imbalance at the start of the game that doesn't get undone.
• Mafia should have a way to subvert / destroy pro-town powers, since straight-up killing power roles isn't possible.

Also, if you have a post system based on posting quality/quantity, people WILL try to game it. You're going to have to insert yourself into the discussion pretty subjectively. It can work, though, definitely.

My Game:

Spoiler:

I'm not sure how unbalanced a total random distribution would be. 1 Mafia in each house would be the ideal setup, but I don't want the hunt for the last mafia to come down to 'lynch one of this house, repeat til they are all dead.' The powers held by each house arent going to be too powerful: roleblock, doctor, tracker and watcher most likely, so even if scum do control a house, their power isn't going to be too useful. That's the other balance to the powers, is that scum will have influence on them, thus they could be steered towards nefarious ends.

I understand people will try to game the system, which is why I will have a caveat that anyone trying to game the system will be punished. Put simply, multple posts in a row will only count as one, and quick one-liner replies wont count, especially if they say "I will post more, I promise!"

I will likely need a co-mod for it though, what with all the pming thats going to be going on. I was planning on running this game anyway, but I thought it might be good for bringing new people in, despite not being vanilla.

[_infina_]

I still think we should start a leaderboard (based on wins) with the following format -

Overall:

1. X - 6 wins
2. Y - 4 wins
3. Z - 2 Wins

Scum

1. Y - 3 Wins
2. X - 2 wins

Town

1. X - 4 Wins
2, Y - 1 Wins

Independent

1. Z - 2 wins

Or something similar to that. Keep it as a rolling leaderboard so anyone can add to it when they win a game. I think it would add a little bit of competition and keep track of how successful new players and old players are. Just an idea - I'll go back to trying to keep up with the games I'm in now.

Edit: We should trial it with the event specific games and if it proves popular then we can use it.

http://mafiawiki.cbouton.com/index.php?title=Leaderboard

[roband]

http://mafiawiki.cbouton.com/index.php?title=Leaderboard

looks good *poker face*

[Adam H]

Or if you die you are given a role and added to an "underworld game" that starts small but adds new players each day.

What if there was one game without signups that players hop in the middle of when they die in one of the main games?

So you like my idea then?

Yeah... missed that completely...

[bantler]

First, I've taken a look from time to time at the mafia played here vs. a few other places (Mafiascum, Bay12), so I understand what you mean when saying it's very different here. My impression of the other places is that it's very rapid-fire, shoot-from-the-hip kind of stuff, with lots of relatively short posts coming in hourly. That is certainly more exciting and fast-paced. For me, though, it's bad, because I literally could not play if all games were like that... they don't fit in my schedule. Plus, the style of mafia games is obviously going to reflect the style of the forum, and the XKCD forumites tend to be a bit... umm.... wordily argumentative. Just look at SB and the constant definition-wars there.

Ah. Sometimes I need to snoop around the upper forums to remember this is a diluted yet still potent extract.

[BoomFrog]

Alright, things have kinda died down here. We needs some votes before deadline so... oh wait...

Err right, so it seems the brainstorming is done, let's make some decisions. I propose:
1) We start all the games on Jan 16, its a Monday and it will give people two weeks to recover from holidays before it starts.
2) The theme will be the apocalypse but you don't have to make your game fit the theme if you really don't want to.
3) I will run an afterlife game. It will have signups but you will not join the game until you die in at least one other apocalypse game. If you are only signed up for resistance then you can be a starting player in the afterlife as well. I will do my best to design the game to not influence players in other games, unless the mod gives me permission to.

Does anyone have any strong objection to any of those?

[roband]

It can't just be a free for all. We need to work out who /wants/ to mod a game and then decide who is actually going to mod the games.

[Vieto]

I may be down to help co-host a larger game. I find I have more success with larger games than smaller games (Jurassic Park vs. Clue).

[Krong]

OK, so, I'm going to use the second post of this thread to keep track of things we seem to be in agreement on. I put a game of Resistance in there, since I heard lots of "that would be a good idea". I think the apocalypse theme is something we've neared agreement on, as well? I tend to like that idea just because "oh noes the world is ending aaaahhh" is pretty open-ended as far as game themes go.

Now... is everyone OK with Jan. 16th as a start date, as BF suggested? Pushing it up a bit is fine, too.

As far as who's modding what, I agree that we can't do it as a free-for-all. We might even want to coordinate themes to try to accommodate for a variety of interests.

[_infina_]

That is close enough to when Firefly mafia should start, I might as well theme it around an apocalyptic scenario. It will be as large as we have people for, anyway, and some people might enjoy playing in a large game.

Perhaps we could create a comic that could be used to advertise...wait, a series, first explaining mafia, and then advertising it.

[Gopher of Pern]

I agree Firefly might be a good way to get people interested, as it is fairly popular, and the name itself might bring people in. As long as it is not too complicated?

I'd prefer earlier in Jan, but I can do later so I'm fine with that.

I'd like to propose Hogwarts Mafia as a 12 or 16 player game. I will need a co-mod for it though.

We will need to have the rules thread updated, and probably a clear set of rules at the beginning of each game, to make sure no rules are overlooked. Things like deadlines, tied-lynches, etc need to be clearly spelled out for each game, to prevent new players from getting confused.

[ConMan]

I'm willing to co-mod a game around then - I would rather pick one I know some of the flavour background for and am happy to put forward suggestions too.

[Vieto]

Lets see... some possible ideas:

Zodiac mafia (13 players ) (Chinese or Babylonian)
Aztec mafia (Sins, Spanish Assassins try to kill the chief, and there is a daily voted sacrifice to the gods)
Assassins Creed Mafia

[Krong]

It looks like infina's planning on Firefly as a large for when we start this... sound good to everyone? I think it works.

[Gopher of Pern]

I'd prefer to keep Hogwarts for the Event, if no one objects. In it's place for the meantime, I might do a Dragonrider's of Pern mafia, in memory of Anne McCaffrey, who died today. Probably only a small, will take a couple of days to work things out.

*edit*

Oh, just realised the start date of Firefly mafia. Should I start Hogwarts a bit later, or at the same time? I guess someone should also design something for our sigs, or are we just going to text it?

[_infina_]

...in memory of Anne McCaffrey, who died today.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[_infina_]

It looks like infina's planning on Firefly as a large for when we start this... sound good to everyone? I think it works.

I'd need the time for signups anyways, so might as well make it coincide.

[Gopher of Pern]

...in memory of Anne McCaffrey, who died today.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I know! She was my favourite author growing up. It also leaves me with my 2 favourite authors dying this year.

Anyway, I guess we need a slogan for or something for the event. Here's my (bad) contributions:

Think you're Sherlock? Come play Mafia, the game of social logic, lies and deceit!

Don't know friend from foe? Don't worry, neither do we!
Play Mafia!

9 people. 3 killers. Can you find them, before they kill you?
Play Mafia!

Just a few starting points, though they all sound like cheesy internet game ads.

[Vieto]

Sherlock Holmes Mafia! That's it!

edit: now, to add a dash of 22nd century or not...