Education from OWS thread

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:50 pm UTC

lutzj wrote:We should be encouraging foreign grad students and professors to stay and making it easier for them to gain citizenship.

I think we do? I think there are simply better opportunities outside of America for those graduates because of the value of an American universities graduate degree compared to non-American graduate degrees. The 'brain drain' of graduate level individuals has long been a serious issue.

Lucrece wrote:American colleges do well but ironically are far less accessible to the citizens

I don't necessarily find that ironic; the value of an American degree, again compared to non-American universities, is high. Foreign students come here for degrees, and go back home. American's aren't by in large going abroad for cheap education and coming home to use that degree.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby addams » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:41 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:In places like Denmark, a high school diploma is not sufficient for entry into university. For examples, universities there require AP scores on 3 languages, a social science, a natural science, mathematics, and language arts. Those are pre-requisite for consideration.

American colleges do well but ironically are far less accessible to the citizens than EU university education is to citizens over there. I also won't mention the large representation of foreign talent on American universities, particularly in the math/science/computer science departments. Renting foreign talent because the US population is falling behind at the high school/Bachelor's levels is not ideal.


Yes. I was in the United States. I saw a people that have little respect for intelligence and education. Some do. But, the pocket book rules the day.

It is so damn unfair. The people of Denmark are a very fortunate people. It could change inside the United States. It could.

The students will make the difference. The teachers would love to teach. It is fun to learn. To teach is a very good way to learn. It is hard. It is also fun. To teach people that do not want to know is impossible and not fun.

Who wants to know? How can those people learn?

Who benefits? A calm intelligent people are easy to care for. A calm intelligent people care for one another.

Inside the United States during the last decade the people aspire not to calm and intelligent but to excited, fearful and 'Fuck you. You can not know more that I do.'.

Do the Humanities contribute to society? Yes. It is hard to get a job as a poet. Yet; Our poets make a positive contribution.

I do not care for some of the Rap poetry. Poets that have never read any poetry are not good poets.

Every human culture has had poets. I like the stuff myself. I also like to know the answer. We need Science for that.
Robert Frost is running around in my head. For an American, the man was alright.

Spoiler:
I have been one acquainted with the night.
I have walked out in rain -- and back in rain.
I have out walked the furthest city light.
O luminary clock against the sky proclaims the time is neither wrong nor right.
I have been one acquainted with the night.


The students of today would be offended, if, they were forced to memorize poetry. I did it. Some of that stuff is still running around naked in my head.

Spoiler:
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.


As long as I am at it; Here is my favorite.

Spoiler:
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun,
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
'Stay where you are until our backs are turned!'
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, 'Good fences make good neighbors'.
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
'Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows?
But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.' I could say 'Elves' to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."


Good Night.
We will solve the problems of the world, tomorrow.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Minerva » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:42 am UTC

My solution was to remove fields of study that don't lead to employment from the university system


You've got to be a little bit careful about that though, otherwise somebody might eventually come along and try to argue that, say, theoretical physics or astronomy or planetary science or quantum field theory aren't actually relevant to what people do in their employment, except for the small portion of people who are on the faculty or who are "employed" as grad students, therefore, since it's not relevant to most employment we should remove those fields of study?
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:56 pm UTC

People should be free to choose whatever major they want, but they should do so as an informed decision. Studying astrophysics as an undergrad probably means you're fast tracking yourself to graduate programs and either faculty positions or trying to get on large projects; faculty positions are rare and hard to procure, and the likelihood of being able to work on large projects is also low. So sure, be a pre-med major in college, but do it forewarned of your chances of getting into medical school. That's part of the problem; people are possibly/probably choosing majors that don't have a strong ability to employ them, i.e., treating college as 'personal enrichment' rather than 'professional development'.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby addams » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:12 pm UTC

Minerva wrote:
My solution was to remove fields of study that don't lead to employment from the university system


You've got to be a little bit careful about that though, otherwise somebody might eventually come along and try to argue that, say, theoretical physics or astronomy or planetary science or quantum field theory aren't actually relevant to what people do in their employment, except for the small portion of people who are on the faculty or who are "employed" as grad students, therefore, since it's not relevant to most employment we should remove those fields of study?


I agree with you. Some of the Science that is done today, looks like Magic. It looks like Religion. It has always been true.

In the history of Chemistry, greed pushed the science forward. The rich were willing to support the Alchemists, because, the Alchemists were making Gold.

We need people do get things done. And; We need dreamers. If, we spend all day every day chasing money, then, we miss a great deal.

I like the scientists that have poetry in their souls.
Lincon Barnett; Carl Sagan; Dr. Einstein;

I was told that it was overabundance that allowed for Art, Science and Religion to exist at all. Humans had figured out how to have everything that they could think of. Then, they sat back and thought of something new. Right?

Is that the way it worked? Is that the way it works, now?

It is in contented rest that we dream large dreams?

Oh. Lincon Barnett wrote a physics book. Inside the book he wrote, "Mind may yet guide man's destiny in a capricious universe."

I thought that he was wonderful; Brilliant and poetic.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Deep_Thought » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:21 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I think we do? I think there are simply better opportunities outside of America for those graduates because of the value of an American universities graduate degree compared to non-American graduate degrees. The 'brain drain' of graduate level individuals has long been a serious issue.

Over here in Europe the "brain drain" is seen as going towards America, because the pay is so much better (for STEM within Universities). So lord knows whether there even is such a thing. Perhaps people just get homesick or fancy a new challenge in another land?

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:50 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:That's part of the problem; people are possibly/probably choosing majors that don't have a strong ability to employ them, i.e., treating college as 'personal enrichment' rather than 'professional development'.


Aaaand we're back to espousing false dichotomies and proclaiming that the purpose of college is only to get you a job.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:07 pm UTC

The American brain drain I think is more in reference to Asian or Indian students. To be honest I haven't read anything about it in 3-5 years so it may be different now.
Jenkins; do you mean it was decided that college is isn't for ensuring a better future? I didn't get the memo that we were done talking about whether making a wise decision with your college education was important.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Chen » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:44 pm UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:That's part of the problem; people are possibly/probably choosing majors that don't have a strong ability to employ them, i.e., treating college as 'personal enrichment' rather than 'professional development'.


Aaaand we're back to espousing false dichotomies and proclaiming that the purpose of college is only to get you a job.


The problem is people who are doing the personal enrichment part but then ASSUMING they will be able to get a job afterwards because they have a degree, even if said degree has very little value for most jobs. If you're willing to pay the price for this personal enrichment I have no problem with that. The ROI though is solely what you gained from the experience, if your degree is not a marketable one. The problem is that our who school system pushes people to get degrees with the promise that jobs will follow. When you factor this in, the ROI looks better than it actually is, so people are willing to get into debt with the thought that its worth it. In a lot of cases, that much debt is NOT worth it.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby addams » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:08 pm UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:That's part of the problem; people are possibly/probably choosing majors that don't have a strong ability to employ them, i.e., treating college as 'personal enrichment' rather than 'professional development'.


Aaaand we're back to espousing false dichotomies and proclaiming that the purpose of college is only to get you a job.


No. I really do want to communicate about the subject.

A University education changes the person. A University education is like a foundry for the soul. A good education does change the person. I think that my education was a good one. It was difficult. Me, the student, worked very hard.

I can do everything now, (with some exceptions) that I could do before University. Yet; I have a more interesting relationship to everything that I do.

There are people (George Bush the Second is a good example) that have a diploma, but, don't know anything.

Thank God, for Google and Wikipedia. We are able to self educate. The framework of the University is still important. It is nice to know that we know stuff.
We learn skills at school. Then we show off for one another. Some of the stuff we learn is useful.

A good University does not allow the students to be out of control drunks. I have seen Universities that not only allow it, but, have a culture that encourages it.

Because it happens does not make it desirable. Those are not good schools; I don't care what the P.R. guys say.

Get a job? Really?

As the world goes insane; George the Second stumbles off the stage; Amish form hair cutting mobs; 'How much money do you have?' is the first medical question; And; other stuff as well; People still want to know how to fit in and work together.

University is not required to fit in and work together. We still need dreamers. Dreamers that know stuff. That is what Universities are for. Dreamers that can communicate with one another and with the rest of the world, as well.

Some of us learn to communicate in Math; Some in computer code; Some in weird symbols of Chemistry; Some in broken dead languages (Medical); Yet; We are all human and we can do so many wonderful things, together.

It is true that people that have a good high school education from nations that still educate their people are as well prepared for life as University educated people from... Well.. From many of the United States.

It is not the school, but, the students. The students are a product of their culture. And; The students are individually responsable for their learning.

Exit exams are a good idea. Damn. George the Second would have never passed an exit exam. Sure; The very wealthy and powerful can still buy exit exam scores for their children, but, most parents can not do that.

Many humans want a sense of accomplishment. Remember Maslow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s ... y_of_needs

Education stops when a person can make enough money?! No!!

Learning and testing and playing with reality never stop. Well; Maybe, after we are dead. Maybe.

Ever heard of reincarnation? There is a scary idea. ewww.

Humans. Why are we such dicks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Zoo_%28book%29

Yeah. I know. It also explains why we are so nice.

Wikipedia says that Dr. Morris was a zoologist. I was introduced to him as the world's foremost comparative psychologist.

He wrote Man Watching. That is what Universities are for. Man Watching.

Debt? Going into debt for school? Fuck. There is a bad idea. Who does that?

I am so sorry. It makes me laugh. Really? People that go into debt for school are too stupid to be in school. How is that for an argument?

I have heard that there are nations that do not allow it.

In the United States there was a time when the government paid people to go to school. It was a quiet life. They only paid good students. The crap students were not bared from school. But, the crap students had to pay. How is it, now?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Zamfir » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:38 pm UTC

Adams, I sort of like the stuff you post, but I haven't the faintest clue how to respond to it. Right now I feel like I am starting a conversation with a mime.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby stevey_frac » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:23 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Adams, I sort of like the stuff you post, but I haven't the faintest clue how to respond to it. Right now I feel like I am starting a conversation with a mime.


It's like walking in on your sister having sex. It's a viewpoint you're new to, it seems a bit chaotic, and you can't seem to vocalize any thoughts on the subject.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby addams » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:27 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Adams, I sort of like the stuff you post, but I haven't the faintest clue how to respond to it. Right now I feel like I am starting a conversation with a mime.


A meme or a mime?

Am I allowing my foul temper about being laid up with an injury show through in what I write?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Lucrece » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:39 pm UTC

Is pre-med an actual degree? From what I gathered of people I know, it's merely a track. You still have to pick a major. You can be a pre-med student, which means a schedule is designed for you fitting in med school pre-reqs, and still be an English major. When I studied in the US I recall my counselor telling me that there were people with English majors making it into Harvard med school.

I would assume most people pursuing med school would grab profitable degrees like Biochemistry and Chemistry to grab a job to be able to pay through it anyways.

Izawwlgood wrote:
lutzj wrote:
Lucrece wrote:American colleges do well but ironically are far less accessible to the citizens

I don't necessarily find that ironic; the value of an American degree, again compared to non-American universities, is high. Foreign students come here for degrees, and go back home. American's aren't by in large going abroad for cheap education and coming home to use that degree.


Eh, I haven't seen that. European degrees in the programs I've eyed and reading on interview processes carry weight. People seem to have the impression that the European system is more rigorous throughout the process.

The reason Americans aren't going abroad is because most Americans don't have much in language skills (there are programs in English but it always limits your choice of universities and the number of programs available), travel between the US and Europe is expensive compared to how easy travel inside EU is, and most EU programs have strict guidelines favoring EU members. Tuition is not as cheap if you're not a EU member.
Last edited by Lucrece on Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:45 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:44 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:We need a generation of teachers trained in understanding individual differences in personality and intelligence, how to recognize those and how to teach to them.
You think current teachers don't recognize that students are different from each other? You don't think it simply might be difficult to individually tailor a lesson to each student's needs when there are 20 or 30 other students who have different individual needs?

But the largest difference between the countries performing better than the US and the US is the larger variety of ethnicities, less cultural care about education and more disagreement on what should be taught.
What do the larger variety of ethnicities have to do with anything?
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Lucrece » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:48 pm UTC

I assume he's referring to how ethnicities can create different types of learners. I recall that some problems that were risen with the SAT/ACT is that it seems to be impacting non-WASP students unfairly
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby lutzj » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:50 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
But the largest difference between the countries performing better than the US and the US is the larger variety of ethnicities, less cultural care about education and more disagreement on what should be taught.
What do the larger variety of ethnicities have to do with anything?


I'm not sure how big a factor ethnic diversity alone is, but cutural and ethnic homogeneity in places like Finland and South Korea probably helps create a stronger "it takes a village" ethic and thus more public support for teachers/education in general. It's harder to convince people in big, diverse countries like the US to pay more for everybody else's education.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Jessica » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:53 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Is pre-med an actual degree? From what I gathered of people I know, it's merely a track. You still have to pick a major. You can be a pre-med student, which means a schedule is designed for you fitting in med school pre-reqs, and still be an English major. When I studied in the US I recall my counselor telling me that there were people with English majors making it into Harvard med school.

I would assume most people pursuing med school would grab profitable degrees like Biochemistry and Chemistry to grab a job to be able to pay through it anyways.

You are correct lucrece, it is a track. Law school is also the same, as it's a masters degree that you take after any bachelors. Education is another bachelors degree you take after your first bachelors degree (in canada).

It makes sense to take any number of different bachelors before your pre-med. There are a lot of doctors who go the hard science route, but there are also those who go the soft science or humanities approach, for a more rounded person, with better bedside manner.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:07 pm UTC

Pre-med being a track or a major is irrelevant; I mentioned it to indicate that it is generally considered a 'professional' degree, as opposed to 'non-professional' degrees, which have been colloquially referred to as 'basketweaving'.

Jessica wrote:It makes sense to take any number of different bachelors before your pre-med. There are a lot of doctors who go the hard science route, but there are also those who go the soft science or humanities approach, for a more rounded person, with better bedside manner.

The claim that this grants you a better bedside manner has a big 'ol fat [Citation Needed] on it. Also, I've heard of the opposite track being a thing; humanities students who get fast tracked through a science curriculum on special programs for medical schools. The idea seems to be that qualified intelligent students can learn the material and not require four years of tangent courses (p-chem/physics much?). The girl I followed to Alabama was one such example; she was an English major who decided she wanted to be a doctor, and was accepted into a program that fast tracked such students.

Lucrece wrote:The reason Americans aren't going abroad is because most Americans don't have much in language skills

That's probably certainly a factor, but aren't many/most STEM field university programs abroad taught in English anyway? Two of the Indian students in my cohort, and one Chinese student both took their coursework in English, so, anecdotes yay.
Zamfir wrote:Adams, I sort of like the stuff you post, but I haven't the faintest clue how to respond to it. Right now I feel like I am starting a conversation with a mime.

This.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Lucrece » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:22 pm UTC

Not much choice in Scandinavia at least, when I checked, since I wanted that to be my next EU destination. Was either stuck with French, German, or learning the native language for the main universities.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Jessica » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:50 pm UTC

Only you colloquially refer to all degrees that aren't "professional degrees" as basket weaving, despite complaints from others asking you to stop. Pre-med isn't a degree, and if the person doesn't get a medical degree after going pre-med, they have a BSc to work with.

This was what I was referring to when I said that. Here's your citation.

What I'm trying to explain is that a Bachelor's in something (science, or arts) can allow you to apply to a much larger variety of jobs, then not having a bachelor's in something. That bachelor's doesn't guarantee you anything. Some degrees get you ready for specific paths in life. Pre-med is a great example of this. It's any bachelor's degree with certain courses, which prepares you for Med school. It doesn't mean you'll get into Med School. It doesn't necessarily mean you're smarter, or better, or harder working than someone who doesn't go pre-med. It means that at 18 or 19 you decided you wanted to be a doctor, and started planning for that job. Some people decide "I don't know what I want to spend my life doing" and don't go into a specific degree. Some people decide "I want to go into engineering," and then life happens that that plan goes out the god damn window.

In the end, people who graduate from a bachelor's program have a piece of paper, and 4 years of secondary education. Those people are employable to someone. Even someone who got a philosophy degree is employable; someone can use them. They might not have the requisites to get a job in engineering when they graduate, but that doesn't mean they can't get a job. It also doesn't mean their only job they can get is one they could have got before going to university. In fact they still have more opportunity in the job market then someone without a university diploma.

HERE COMES THE RUB!!!

Right now, we're in a recession. Or coming out of one. Or going back into one. Whatever.
All fields lost people, some fields lost lots of people, some very few. Most employers are wary of expansion, and are "tightening the belt".
10 years ago, these same people coming out of university would have less debt then they do now, and most would be able to get a job in 6 to 12 months. Now, they have more debt and half of those people can't find a job 12 months out of university.
This isn't a problem of shitty degrees vs gold standard degrees. Continuing to say things like "well, those people who don't have jobs should have got a better degree" really isn't helping, and is missing the problem completely. They are still employable, and they can't get a job, not because they didn't pick the right degree, or didn't put in enough work, but because there are no jobs. If there were jobs, they could find one, as there are many jobs that need someone with a bachelor in arts, to do such fuck things as journalism, editing, technical writing, marketing, fund-raising, human resources or employee management, and many other jobs.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Malice » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:57 pm UTC

Izawwlgood, why should people be pushed to choose professional development over personal enrichment?

Anecdotally, my entire extended family goes like this:

Grandparents (1st generation): blue-collar or low white-collar, retired with a pension
Parents (2nd generation): high white-collar (corporate management, accountants, lawyers)
Kids (3rd generation): creative (artists, actors, musicians, filmmakers) (Even my brother, who doesn't have a creative bone in his body, wants to go into marketing.)

If I may be allowed to generalize a bit, I think there's something to looking at what your parents did and going, "Yeah, they were able to make a good living and start a family; but I want to make sure I'm fulfilled in my career in a way they weren't, even if that comes with less comfort or stability". Instead of starting with a job that they know will reward them financially and only then trying to enjoy it (or find something outside of work to enjoy), I think a lot of young people are doing it the other way around--finding ways to monetize their passion. It's a very Internet-driven mentality, a sort of "If I can eke out a sparse living selling crochet Elvises on Etsy, why would I ever want to major in accounting?" kind of thing, and while it might not be good for the economy, I think it might be better overall for society.

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zamfir wrote:Adams, I sort of like the stuff you post, but I haven't the faintest clue how to respond to it. Right now I feel like I am starting a conversation with a mime.

This.


I prefer to think of Addams's posts as what would result if the alien consciousness from Sphere had access to CNN.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Lucrece » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:50 pm UTC

I suppose because $10-50k year tuition is a tad overpriced for something as nebulous as "personal enrichment".
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:04 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Jenkins; do you mean it was decided that college is isn't for ensuring a better future? I didn't get the memo that we were done talking about whether making a wise decision with your college education was important.


Neither did I. Which is my point; you asserted the purpose of a college education when actually the thread has come to no such consensus. Your sentence right there - "a wise decision" - presupposes *your* definition of that as *the* definition. When in fact it is a definition to which some of us take strong exception. This doesn't even touch on the false dichotomy that STEM degrees = job prep and anything else = self-improvement.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Panonadin » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:53 am UTC

I think it's perfectly reasonable to go to college for personal enrichment, but I don't think that you have any right/reason to complain about not getting a job because you went to college to learn how to weave a basket and there is no current market interest in basket weavers.

That was your choice and the fault isn't societies it's not the governments it's not your parents, it's yours. I honestly don't even understand how someone could argue otherwise.

If we both work for a tech company and a promotion opportunity comes up I go take a course on technology related stuff and you go take a course on how to make balloon animals and we differ in nothing else but those two course choices, I should come out on top.

Yeah sure, you can make a mean balloon giraffe and you may feel all fulfilled because of it, since you chose that path you can feel a few different ways about it. One being fulfilled by your balloon making abilities and ok with missing out on the promotion, another being upset that you didn't take a more useful course. It doesn't seem like any other option is rational.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:07 am UTC

Panonadin wrote:I think it's perfectly reasonable to go to college for personal enrichment, but I don't think that you have any right/reason to complain about not getting a job because you went to college to learn how to weave a basket and there is no current market interest in basket weavers.

That was your choice and the fault isn't societies it's not the governments it's not your parents, it's yours. I honestly don't even understand how someone could argue otherwise.

If we both work for a tech company and a promotion opportunity comes up I go take a course on technology related stuff and you go take a course on how to make balloon animals and we differ in nothing else but those two course choices, I should come out on top.

Yeah sure, you can make a mean balloon giraffe and you may feel all fulfilled because of it, since you chose that path you can feel a few different ways about it. One being fulfilled by your balloon making abilities and ok with missing out on the promotion, another being upset that you didn't take a more useful course. It doesn't seem like any other option is rational.


For the last freakin' time - STEM subjects are not the only degrees that get jobs. Nor are they "useless." Just because you think people who get a degree in history, english, or some other "basketweaving" subject are unemployable does NOT mean that is the way reality actually IS.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Panonadin » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:19 am UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
For the last freakin' time - STEM subjects are not the only degrees that get jobs. Nor are they "useless." Just because you think people who get a degree in history, english, or some other "basketweaving" subject are unemployable does NOT mean that is the way reality actually IS.


I went back and re-read my post and looked for the part where I called them useless or that they were unemployable. I merely stated and obviously not directly enough that if YOU CHOOSE a degree like that and then don't get a job in that field it's YOUR FAULT. It's common sense that there are jobs out there for someone who majored in History, are there more jobs out there for other majors? Absolutely.

Weigh it out with yourself, does having that history degree "enrich" you enough that you don't mind if you get a job or would you rather study IT and have a better shot a job even though you may like it less? It's no ones fault we don't have a super high demand for historians. It's no one ELES fault you chose that degree.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:11 am UTC

Panonadin wrote:
Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
For the last freakin' time - STEM subjects are not the only degrees that get jobs. Nor are they "useless." Just because you think people who get a degree in history, english, or some other "basketweaving" subject are unemployable does NOT mean that is the way reality actually IS.


I went back and re-read my post and looked for the part where I called them useless or that they were unemployable. I merely stated and obviously not directly enough that if YOU CHOOSE a degree like that and then don't get a job in that field it's YOUR FAULT. It's common sense that there are jobs out there for someone who majored in History, are there more jobs out there for other majors? Absolutely.

Weigh it out with yourself, does having that history degree "enrich" you enough that you don't mind if you get a job or would you rather study IT and have a better shot a job even though you may like it less? It's no ones fault we don't have a super high demand for historians. It's no one ELES fault you chose that degree.


Please explain how I can get to the magical universe where the degree one gets can be safely assumed to have ANYTHING to do with the career one will have. Because I'd love love love to get there. Back in our universe, liberal arts degrees confer skills and abilities which transcend the demands of a specific academic field. It is not unreasonable, selfish, foolish, or unwise to major in one of those subjects. And I'm going to have to call [citation needed] for the "more jobs out there for other majors" part - really, there are more jobs for people specifically trained in STEM subjects than those in the humanities? Or is the claim here only that 51% or more of employed people who have a college-level education or higher have a degree in such a subject? Or that there are more career paths open to a STEM major? Either which way, I'm not prepared to accept that as fact without evidence.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby KestrelLowing » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:23 am UTC

I actually think this discussion has not explored something that is drastically important to the subject: the fact that many people go to college simply to extend years they don't have to work. Basically, we're extending childhood. Now, elongating childhood could be a good or bad thing, I'm not certain, but elongating it in the way we're doing? Pretty bad.

All you have to do is look at how the media portrays college to see that this is the truth. How many college themed movies have you seen that actually has more than just the nerdy kid doing homework, or even going to class? Or just acting like a mature person? We've decided that college is now a place to find yourself, and discover who you are. Frankly, I think this is great for people on a personal level. Being able to 'test the waters' to see how you're going to live on your own while in college while still having a safety net has been very beneficial for me personally. However, this pretty much royally sucks for the economy.

Because of this draw towards college - the social scene, the family pressure, the scariness of the 'real world' - we end up with many people who have college degrees (despite the large debt, as large student loans are perfectly acceptable debt in society) that probably don't really need/want them. These are the people who tend to enroll in the 'easy majors'.

Somehow, math has been designated as just about the hardest subject imaginable (I really think that has to do with the way it's taught in earlier schooling, but that's another topic) so students who aren't particularly interested in the actual learning aspect of college will gravitate towards humanities and arts degrees. These type of people are mainly who the STEM type people are so prejudiced about (myself included!). They get a degree in something that's pretty much useless because they don't really care or have any sort of plan with what they will be doing with that degree after college. Note that the same degree, however, may not be useless for someone else who cares or has some sort of plan. Also, as a total aside, another reason STEM majors hate humanities majors? Grade inflation. We hate having people look as if they're doing better than we are when that's not actually the case.)

This however does flood the market with people with degrees. This flooding is what makes it damn near impossible to find a job if you don't have a college degree (even a job that does not actually require any schooling beyond high school). After all, given all else equal, an employer will likely choose the candidate who went to college. So that even adds to the draws towards college as to get a barista job at starbucks, you suddenly need a college degree.

So, in my opinion, we need to find some other, preferably debt free, way of allowing kids to make that transition to adulthood without incurring a ridiculous amount of debt and flooding the market with (now) useless degrees. College seems awfully expensive for how a good portion of people use it.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:58 am UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:For the last freakin' time - STEM subjects are not the only degrees that get jobs. Nor are they "useless." Just because you think people who get a degree in history, english, or some other "basketweaving" subject are unemployable does NOT mean that is the way reality actually IS.

You need to start listening what people are actually writing. Going to college to get a degree in something 'non-professional' means you are choosing to study something that you don't want to utilize in your intended career. I.e., majoring in English is fine if you plan on being an English professor. It isn't fine if you expect a desk job , and are less hirable than someone who majored in something applicable to the desk job.
Lucrece wrote:I suppose because $10-50k year tuition is a tad overpriced for something as nebulous as "personal enrichment".

Especially when that price tag, and that 'personal enrichment' comes with it the presupposition that you'll also be employable.
Malice wrote:Izawwlgood, why should people be pushed to choose professional development over personal enrichment?

Because college isn't/shouldn't be a way to delay real life. It has a real world cost and supposedly real world benefits. It's an investment. If you want to spent that investment solely on personal enrichment, then that's fine, but other people may be more frugal with their investment. I.e., if you want to major in something non-marketable, that's fine. People who majored in something more marketable spent their time/money more wisely. The question isn't 'why should we push people one way or the other', but 'why should people who made less informed choices be in the same boat as those made informed choices?'
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby addams » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:58 am UTC

KestrelLowing wrote:I actually think this discussion has not explored something that is drastically important to the subject: the fact that many people go to college simply to extend years they don't have to work. Basically, we're extending childhood. Now, elongating childhood could be a good or bad thing, I'm not certain, but elongating it in the way we're doing? Pretty bad.

I agree with you. Humans already have a very long pre-adult stage. I have seen with my own eyes, young men and women that become more childish during college than they were before college. These people are drunk and stoned and use the altered consciousness as an excuse to not be mature.

Mature educated adult will experiment with altered consciousness. Adults do not use it as an excuse. Sometimes a reason. i.e. "I am not driving. I have been drinking."


All you have to do is look at how the media portrays college to see that this is the truth. How many college themed movies have you seen that actually has more than just the nerdy kid doing homework, or even going to class? Or just acting like a mature person? We've decided that college is now a place to find yourself, and discover who you are.
Nah. These people know who they are. There is a great deal of social pressure to be out of control, Assholes. They know they are Assholes. They know they can get away with it. Not all students are that way. It, really, should not be tolerated.

Frankly, I think this is great for people on a personal level. Being able to 'test the waters' to see how you're going to live on your own while in college while still having a safety net has been very beneficial for me personally. However, this pretty much royally sucks for the economy.

Safety net? Really? What kind of a safety net? School is hard. It was for me. If, I did not show up when I was expected prepared for the day, then, there were consequences. Sure. I made mistakes. In a 'real' job we make mistakes. We are human. But, showing up drunk or severely hung over day after day should get a person fired and it should get a person tossed out of school.

Because of this draw towards college - the social scene, the family pressure, the scariness of the 'real world' - we end up with many people who have college degrees (despite the large debt, as large student loans are perfectly acceptable debt in society) that probably don't really need/want them. These are the people who tend to enroll in the 'easy majors'.

Somehow, math has been designated as just about the hardest subject imaginable (I really think that has to do with the way it's taught in earlier schooling, but that's another topic)
Math is hard! It starts out hard and gets harder! No one knows it all. The best I have ever met work hard at it. Math guys have earned our respect.

so students who aren't particularly interested in the actual learning aspect of college will gravitate towards humanities and arts degrees. These type of people are mainly who the STEM type people are so prejudiced about (myself included!). They get a degree in something that's pretty much useless because they don't really care or have any sort of plan with what they will be doing with that degree after college. Note that the same degree, however, may not be useless for someone else who cares or has some sort of plan. Also, as a total aside, another reason STEM majors hate humanities majors? Grade inflation. We hate having people look as if they're doing better than we are when that's not actually the case.)

Grade inflation. Yes. That is difficult. We could have thread on that subject alone. An A. in a 4 unit art class in not the same as an A. in a 4 unit chemistry class. But, it looks the same on paper.

Instructors are intimidated by students. I have seen it. It is easier to give the student a passing grade that incur the wrath of an out of control drunk.


This however does flood the market with people with degrees. This flooding is what makes it damn near impossible to find a job if you don't have a college degree (even a job that does not actually require any schooling beyond high school). After all, given all else equal, an employer will likely choose the candidate who went to college. So that even adds to the draws towards college as to get a barista job at starbucks, you suddenly need a college degree.

So, in my opinion, we need to find some other, preferably debt free, way of allowing kids to make that transition to adulthood without incurring a ridiculous amount of debt and flooding the market with (now) useless degrees. College seems awfully expensive for how a good portion of people use it.


Can we start a thread about what it is to be an adult? Many people seem determined to stay away from adulthood. We can maintain a sense of childlike wonder as adults without being childish Assholes.

I am still a fan of exit exams. Exit exams are objective. There will always be subjective standards. The cute girls will get the sweetest jobs. The pretty boys will be treated with deference, no matter how smart or stupid they are. But, Exit exams do show competence or a lack of competence.
An exit exam allows for a science major to show competence without taking that last required 'underwater basket weaving' course.
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby KestrelLowing » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:00 pm UTC

Sorry if I end up quote chopping (or whatever you call it) - it's just that this is long, and I just want to hit on a few points.

addams wrote:Nah. These people know who they are. There is a great deal of social pressure to be out of control, Assholes. They know they are Assholes. They know they can get away with it. Not all students are that way. It, really, should not be tolerated.

I meant to actually refer to fairly average students who are suddenly living on their own when they never have before - those are the type of people who are discovering who they are. Tons of people change majors and such because they learn about themselves in college. I think this isn't bad, in fact I'd say it's fantastic, but the problem is when college is the only way to do this.

addams wrote:Safety net? Really? What kind of a safety net? School is hard. It was for me. If, I did not show up when I was expected prepared for the day, then, there were consequences. Sure. I made mistakes. In a 'real' job we make mistakes. We are human. But, showing up drunk or severely hung over day after day should get a person fired and it should get a person tossed out of school.

Perhaps you're thinking a bit more drastically than I am, but school really does have a type of safety net that doesn't exist in the real world. If you fail a class, you can just take it again. You turn in a homework assignment late, you lose the points for that assignment, and that's it. That's not the case in the 'real world' where these types of issues would lose you your job.

addams wrote:Math is hard! It starts out hard and gets harder! No one knows it all. The best I have ever met work hard at it. Math guys have earned our respect.

Yes, math is hard, but no harder than any of the other subjects. Granted, I may be biased as I have always been a math person, but it seems as if the other classes could be just as hard as math is made out to be. Writing a stellar paper is really freaking hard. Determining the anthropological connections between two cultures is really freaking hard. But, I think grade inflation has also played a role in this as well. After all, if you get A's in English, it could mean that your teacher was feeling generous that day. Getting an A in math is a bit less subjective just due to the nature of the subject.

addams wrote:I am still a fan of exit exams. Exit exams are objective. There will always be subjective standards. The cute girls will get the sweetest jobs. The pretty boys will be treated with deference, no matter how smart or stupid they are. But, Exit exams do show competence or a lack of competence.
An exit exam allows for a science major to show competence without taking that last required 'underwater basket weaving' course.


I actually don't think exit exams would solve much. Exams, by their very nature of only being one day, are not terribly good indicators of someone's knowledge of the material. Are scores on exams correlated with understanding? Yes, on average. But, sometimes you just have a bad day, or the questions were worded oddly, and that's not the greatest indication of understanding. Now then, if you were talking more about something that could get you out of your 'basketweaving' course - whether that's Basic Political History of the Mayans for a STEM major or Chemistry 101 for an English major - I would agree with you. If a free or cheap test could be administrated to determine if someone already knew those subjects, it would save people a lot of money in college.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby addams » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:26 pm UTC

I actually don't think exit exams would solve much. Exams, by their very nature of only being one day, are not terribly good indicators of someone's knowledge of the material. Are scores on exams correlated with understanding? Yes, on average. But, sometimes you just have a bad day, or the questions were worded oddly, and that's not the greatest indication of understanding. Now then, if you were talking more about something that could get you out of your 'basketweaving' course - whether that's Basic Political History of the Mayans for a STEM major or Chemistry 101 for an English major - I would agree with you. If a free or cheap test could be administrated to determine if someone already knew those subjects, it would save people a lot of money in college.

No. Exit exams are not one day affairs. I have taken several.

One ran from 8 am until 5 pm for three days. Of course, we were given breaks and time for lunch.

For another test we were given time and place. The test was spread out over two weeks. Each session lasted two hours. There were five sessions.

Some tests have clinical portions. Yes. Those can be 'off'. I was always given the opportunity to retest.

It is important that a person's knowledge base is tested. Other people's lives, sometimes, hang in the balance. Medical fields have important knowledge bases.

Ech. We were tested a lot. So, funny. I took a test one time that left question marks over my head. I stumbled into the wrong test, or something. So, funny.

It was a test of political knowledge. I had none. Still don't. Who can know that stuff?! Politics is not like science. Politics is like Jr. High School. The meanest kids are the most powerful kids.

Really? You never took an exit exam?

Wait. You wrote that 'real' life is different from school. How? We all make mistakes. Instructors are there to guide students and prevent mistakes from taking a large toll. Peers, in real life, are there to guide us and prevent mistakes from taking a large toll. Right?

Oh, Dear; Something that was written in this thread, just, clicked into place for me.
University education may be a rite of passage for the well to do.
It extends childhood for the wealthy. It does not matter what the young person takes or how well that subject is understood. It is an extension of childhood! It is a status symbol! No usefulness required.

The people that are not wealthy want the status symbol. Not the knowledge, but, the status symbol. Oh, Dear; When viewed with that lens, the behavior that I have seen makes sense. Oh, Dear.

It this a global phenomena? It is global? Is it North America? Is it Western? The Americas and Europe? Oh, Dear. Huh?

Opps. You made me think.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Zcorp » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:18 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Zcorp wrote:We need a generation of teachers trained in understanding individual differences in personality and intelligence, how to recognize those and how to teach to them.
You think current teachers don't recognize that students are different from each other? You don't think it simply might be difficult to individually tailor a lesson to each student's needs when there are 20 or 30 other students who have different individual needs?

I think that teachers are painfully aware that students are different from each other, and I know that most teachers have no clue what those differences are, how to recognize those differences or teach to each of those differences (which is arguably a very rare gift or an impossibility). I'm certainly not blaming teachers for this though, teaching programs don't focus on this. I also think that it is very difficult to address various student differences the system we have today. I think that the system needs to address this problem and not just the teachers. That means in some way, and there are a few ways to do it, make it easier for teachers to address individual student differences within their classroom. Some systemic changes that could assist with this are: categorizing learners, dual teacher classrooms or utilizing technology that changes the teachers role within a classroom.

But the largest difference between the countries performing better than the US and the US is the larger variety of ethnicities, less cultural care about education and more disagreement on what should be taught.
What do the larger variety of ethnicities have to do with anything?
The most significant correlation between student learning and anything at a school is their bond with their teacher. Having a different ethnicity than your student makes it more difficult to create that bond. Having 3+ different ethnicities in your classroom makes it very difficult to create a strong bond with each student.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby addams » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:34 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Zcorp wrote:We need a generation of teachers trained in understanding individual differences in personality and intelligence, how to recognize those and how to teach to them.
You think current teachers don't recognize that students are different from each other? You don't think it simply might be difficult to individually tailor a lesson to each student's needs when there are 20 or 30 other students who have different individual needs?

I think that teachers are painfully aware that students are different from each other, and I know that most teachers have no clue what those differences are, how to recognize those differences or teach to each of those differences (which is arguably a very rare gift or an impossibility). I'm certainly not blaming teachers for this though, teaching programs don't focus on this. I also think that it is very difficult to address various student differences the system we have today. I think that the system needs to address this problem and not just the teachers. That means in some way, and there are a few ways to do it, make it easier for teachers to address individual student differences within their classroom. Some systemic changes that could assist with this are: categorizing learners, dual teacher classrooms or utilizing technology that changes the teachers role within a classroom.

But the largest difference between the countries performing better than the US and the US is the larger variety of ethnicities, less cultural care about education and more disagreement on what should be taught.
What do the larger variety of ethnicities have to do with anything?
The most significant correlation between student learning and anything at a school is their bond with their teacher. Having a different ethnicity than your student makes it more difficult to create that bond. Having 3+ different ethnicities in your classroom makes it very difficult to create a strong bond with each student.


I disagree. It is not the bond between the teacher and the student that causes learning to take place. It is the bond between the student and the subject.

I am willing to admit that good role models are important. Very important.

The bond between student and teacher is temporary. A powerful bond between teacher and student is called 'transference' and is not desirable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference
Some argue that transference is unavoidable. Some say that is it one of the painful realities of being human.
Teachers can be good role models. It does not matter what culture a person comes from or what color the person is; If, a teacher models passion for learning, then, some of the students will learn.

By college a love of learning should be in place. Right? By the time a person is ready for University, the student should need a little guidance and some good role models.

Yes. During the first 10 years of life, a caring and competent teacher can be the most important person in a student's life. Many times the teacher never knows.

Personal story: A teacher, Ms. Welk, taught me to read. The other teachers had given up on me. She asked me, "Do you want to learn to read?" I said, "Yes."

She expected me to do the work. I did. It was hard. I am so grateful to her. There was no soft and cozy transference. She was professional. She came prepared and I worked hard.

The work and the responsibility belong to the student; Not the teacher. Not the parents. The student.

The knowledge is the reward. That belongs to the student, too.

The finest thing that most teachers can do is have a passion for the subject and model that passion. The students will catch the passion or not.

Hey! When the teacher is 'different' then the students pay more attention and may learn more because the teacher attracts their attention.

I know that in some classrooms the students are so busy fitting into a strange social order that the subject is not considered important at all. The T.V. models terrible students.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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aldonius
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby aldonius » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:45 pm UTC

Aaaand more fuel for the 'basketweaving' fire. I saw it on slashdot, accompanied by another article which said many (most?) chinese graduates had trouble finding suitable work regardless of their speciality.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011 ... -dont-pay/
"China to cancel college majors that don't pay"
Spoiler:
Much like the U.S., China is aiming to address a problematic demographic that has recently emerged: a generation of jobless graduates. China’s solution to that problem, however, has some in the country scratching their heads.

China’s Ministry of Education announced this week plans to phase out majors producing unemployable graduates, according to state-run media Xinhua. The government will soon start evaluating college majors by their employment rates, downsizing or cutting those studies in which less than 60% of graduates fail for two consecutive years to find work.

The move is meant to solve a problem that has surfaced as the number of China’s university educated have jumped to 8,930 people per every 100,000 in 2010, up nearly 150% from 2000, according to China’s 2010 Census. The surge of collge grads, while an accomplishment for the country, has contributed to an overflow of workers whose skillsets don’t match with the needs of the export-led, manufacturing-based economy.

Yet the government’s decision to curb majors is facing resistance. Many university professors in China are unhappy with the Ministry of Education’s move, as it will likely shrink the talent pool needed for various subjects, such as biology, that are critical to the country’s aim of becoming a leader in science and technology but do not currently have a strong market demand, a report in the state-run China Daily report said.

An op-ed in the Beijing News criticizes the approach for a different reason, saying that it will only spur false reporting of employment rates from schools that are looking for greater autonomy to produce more diversified, higher qualified students.

Official data already shows that the country’s educated jobless, referred to as the “ant tribe,” appear to be decreasing. In 2010, 72% of recent graduates found work, up from 68% in 2009, according to the Ministry of Education.

None of the reports specified which majors would be cut under the new rules, but there are signs that some universities have already started taking steps to decrease the size of programs that don’t result in paid positions. Enrollment in a Russian program at China’s Shenyang Normal University was cut to 25 students this year from 50 in previous years, according to a report in the China Daily.

Education has become a heated topic in China, as the country looks to propel the rise of its own companies and its own technologies. To succeed in that quest, the government has said, the country must produce more innovators. Tight restrictions over education are seen as the reason that creativity in China has been stifled and as the reason that so many have chosen to flee overseas for their studies.

Chinese have questioned whether someone like Apple founder Steve Jobs could ever emerge from an education system that seeks to push down students who stand out from the crowd.

Many Chinese students with enough funding have turned to universities in the U.S., which have a history of churning out graduates who’ve gone on to become some of the world’s top innovators. Last year, 128,000 Chinese students went to the U.S., making China the country with the highest number of overseas pupils in American universities, according to a 2010 report from the Institute of International Education.

But as the U.S. struggles to cope with its own generation of jobless graduates, the American education system has also come into question and many American college students are rethinking the value of their own majors. What if the U.S. government were to adopt China’s approach? According to the most recent U.S. census data, among the first majors to go: psychology, U.S. history and military technologies.

– Laurie Burkitt. Follow her on Twitter @lburkitt

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Izawwlgood
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:04 am UTC

Does the Chinese government pay for that education? If the answer is yes, I think the decision is somewhat practical.
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aldonius
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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby aldonius » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:22 am UTC

From what I can glean from Wikipedia, most places are partially funded by the government, with merit scholarships for low-income students. Almost all universities are publicly managed. So yes, practical decision, particularly with the heavy involvement of young, college-educated, low-job-security people in both the Arab Spring and OWS - the CCP won't want to increase the potential dissident pool.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby morriswalters » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:55 pm UTC

The only times a degree has value if there are jobs to fit those degrees. If everybody gets into those degree fields where there are jobs, than sooner or later that field will become over populated, and the jobs will dry up and wages will fall. Education is driven by past demand not current demand or future demand. Feedback is too sparse to control enrollment.

I saw the same article on Slashdot which also linked to this.

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Re: Education from OWS thread

Postby Deep_Thought » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:37 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:The only times a degree has value if there are jobs to fit those degrees.

So education in itself has no value whatsoever? Man, whatever happened to the enlightenment.

Having said that, a full-time, 3/4 year college degree is a stupidly expensive way to educate yourself if you don't expect to pick a job up at the end of it. All I am arguing here is that education and knowledge is valuable. And possibly that the "transferable skills" you pick up in a properly structured and rigorous course (i.e. being able to construct an argument and then elucidate that argument in an essay, plus time management, independence, and a whole bunch of other things) are also valuable, particularly to employers.


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