So... the entire United States is now a battleground

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So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby NecklaceOfShadow » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:25 pm UTC

Newsvoice.ce wrote:
The National Defense Authorization Act is being called the most traitorous act ever witnessed in the Senate, and the language of the bill is cleverly designed to make you think it doesn’t apply to Americans, but toward the end of the bill it essentially says it can apply to Americans ”if we want it to.”

Bill Summary & Status, 112th Congress (2011 – 2012) | S.1867 | Latest Title: National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 | Sponsor: Sen Levin, Carl [MI] (introduced 11/15/2011) | Related Bills: H.R.1540 | Latest Major Action: 12/1/2011 Passed/agreed to in Senate. | Status: Passed Senate with amendments by Yea-Nay. 93 – 7. | Record Vote Number: 218. | Latest Action: 12/1/2011


This bill, passed late last night in a 93-7 vote, declares the entire USA to be a ”battleground” upon which U.S. military forces can operate with impunity, overriding Posse Comitatus and granting the military the unchecked power to arrest, detain, interrogate and even assassinate U.S. citizens with impunity.

Even WIRED magazine was outraged at this bill, reporting:

Senate Wants the Military to Lock You Up Without Trial

…the detention mandate to use indefinite military detention in terrorism cases isn’t limited to foreigners. It’s confusing, because two different sections of the bill seem to contradict each other, but in the judgment of the University of Texas’ Robert Chesney — a nonpartisan authority on military detention — “U.S. citizens are included in the grant of detention authority.”


The passage of this law is nothing less than an outright declaration of WAR against the American People by the military-connected power elite. If this is signed into law, it will shred the remaining tenants of the Bill of Rights and unleash upon America a total military dictatorship, complete with secret arrests, secret prisons, unlawful interrogations, indefinite detainment without ever being charged with a crime, the torture of Americans and even the ”legitimate assassination” of U.S. citizens on right here on American soil!

If you have not yet woken up to the reality of the police state we’ve been warning you about, I hope you realize we are fast running out of time. Once this becomes law, you have no rights whatsoever in America — no due process, no First Amendment speech rights, no right to remain silent, nothing.


Here is the text of the bill, y'all: Horrible shit.

So... shit is fucked up, yo. I'm scared and I'll be reading this whole thing over the next few days.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:30 pm UTC

Is there a less sensationalist article on the bill? Any article that calls the US a "police state" I am immediately skeptical of.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby NecklaceOfShadow » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:02 am UTC

If you'd like to get to the bottom of the bill yourself, love, then you can also follow the link and start reading straight from the source.

Also: police state police state police state police state police state police state police state
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Cleverbeans » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:10 am UTC

Yay for the independence of the judiciary! :lol:
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby SlyReaper » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:13 am UTC

The bill, being made of pure legalese, is designed to be read by people trained in law. Not being law trained myself, I haven't got the first clue what any of it says or even where to start reading. So I for one am not going to let a sensationally worded article do the interpreting for me.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Derek » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:12 am UTC

I too would like to see a less sensational article. Any bill that passes 93-7 can't be that controversial.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:14 am UTC

Derek wrote:Any bill that passes 93-7 can't be that controversial.
False.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:15 am UTC

Examples?
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:17 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Examples?


USA PATRIOT Act passed 98 to Feingold.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:18 am UTC

I was pretty young when that happened. Was it controversial at the time?
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:21 am UTC

Immediately afterward, when it became clear that, aside from the government mistaking 1984 for an instructions booklet, most Senators don't even read the stuff they put their name to.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Ghostbear » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:24 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I was pretty young when that happened. Was it controversial at the time?

In the short term? Not really. It became controversial around the time of Bush's reelection, by my recollection.

By definition though, a bill passing 93-7 in the senate is only not controversial in... the senate. While the literal statement Derek made might be correct, I'd take issue with the implied statement that a non-controversial bill can't be that bad.

Obama is heavily against the language we're discussing, though him vetoing it might be pretty worthless considering the senate would be fully able to override it. I'd hope he does it anyway- getting everything onto the floor again, and the votes tallied up, and everything else, seems to be pretty time consuming and difficult in congress, especially since they're going to go on vacation soon. And some democrats might be afraid of appearing to disagree strongly with him in an election year.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Kulantan » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:06 am UTC

This really isn't about controversial vs not. It is about good idea vs horrible-1984equse-shit. The PATRIOT act proves that the latter can pass 98 to Feingold.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Magnanimous » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:29 am UTC

Battlestar Galactica is always relevant.
Spoiler:
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby IcedT » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:46 am UTC

Sensationalism aside, "indefinite military detention without charges" is fucking insane. Who the fuck would vote for this shit?
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Ghostbear » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:55 am UTC

IcedT wrote:Sensationalism aside, "indefinite military detention without charges" is fucking insane. Who the fuck would vote for this shit?

Listing everyone who voted for it would be quite a long list, though I found the people who voted against it quite interesting:
Spoiler:
Coburn (R-OK)
Harkin (D-IA)
Lee (R-UT)
Merkley (D-OR)
Paul (R-KY)
Sanders (I-VT)
Wyden (D-OR)

Three republicans, three democrats, and 1 independent (who caucuses with democrats). Oregon had both senators vote against it. I think the republicans who voted against it are fairly strongly conservative, and I think the reverse is true of the democrats. Oddly, I don't think all of the people that made a stink about the inclusion of the shit language in the bill actually voted against it.

Shouldn't indefinite detention be something that should be able to be overruled by the supreme court?
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:02 am UTC

You mean the far-left doesn't like the infringement of rights and the far-right doesn't like the expansion of the role of government?
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:23 am UTC

IcedT wrote:Sensationalism aside, "indefinite military detention without charges" is fucking insane. Who the fuck would vote for this shit?

Yeah, I'm not well versed in legalese, but I don't see how this can equate to something benign.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Triangle_Man » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:35 am UTC

IcedT wrote:Sensationalism aside, "indefinite military detention without charges" is fucking insane. Who the fuck would vote for this shit?

Yeah, I'm not well versed in legalese, but I don't see how this can equate to something benign.[/quote]
Of course it's not benign. That's the kind of crap that occurs in frickin' dictatorships!

I swear to God, it seems like this administration is challenging itself to come up with the worst laws possible!

Why do they do that?!
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Darryl » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:50 am UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:
IcedT wrote:Sensationalism aside, "indefinite military detention without charges" is fucking insane. Who the fuck would vote for this shit?

Yeah, I'm not well versed in legalese, but I don't see how this can equate to something benign.

Of course it's not benign. That's the kind of crap that occurs in frickin' dictatorships!

I swear to God, it seems like this administration is challenging itself to come up with the worst laws possible!

Why do they do that?!

The administration isn't doing any of this. It's the Congress that is.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby IcedT » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:25 am UTC

Darryl wrote:
Triangle_Man wrote:
IcedT wrote:Sensationalism aside, "indefinite military detention without charges" is fucking insane. Who the fuck would vote for this shit?

Yeah, I'm not well versed in legalese, but I don't see how this can equate to something benign.

Of course it's not benign. That's the kind of crap that occurs in frickin' dictatorships!

I swear to God, it seems like this administration is challenging itself to come up with the worst laws possible!

Why do they do that?!

The administration isn't doing any of this. It's the Congress that is.

In fact, the administration intends to veto it, last I heard.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Thesh » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:35 am UTC

These are supposedly the relevant sections (from a google search):

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c ... WC:e462417:

I'm no lawyer, but I'm not seeing where it says the military can hold someone custody indefinitely, just until the end of the war. It also seems to be limited to anyone "who is captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force".

Also, the way I'm understanding it, it doesn't apply to US citizens or legal aliens.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby IcedT » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:39 am UTC

Thesh wrote:These are supposedly the relevant sections (from a google search):

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c ... WC:e462417:

I'm no lawyer, but I'm not seeing where it says the military can hold someone custody indefinitely, just until the end of the war. It also seems to be limited to anyone "who is captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force".
What war? What hostilities?
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Thesh » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:41 am UTC

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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby IcedT » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:53 am UTC

We have a declaration of war against an open and nonspecific set of people, that will realistically continue until a future president decides to call it over. It's hardly equivalent to a real war in which we have a specific, explicitly-named enemy with whom we'll eventually make peace and have an official and mutual end to hostilities. This isn't a Klauzewitzian war so much as it's "we need to send guys with guns somewhere. Call it a war? Close enough."

Added with the fact that these detainments are made by the military at the president's discretion, with absolutely no burden of proof on the accuser or legal recourse for the accused, and this shit is pretty fucking dystopic, guys.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:56 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Examples?


USA PATRIOT Act passed 98 to Feingold.

Some of us say 98 to Paul.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Ghostbear » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:58 am UTC

IcedT wrote:We have a declaration of war against an open and nonspecific set of people, that will realistically continue until a future president decides to call it over. It's hardly equivalent to a real war in which we have a specific, explicitly-named enemy with whom we'll eventually make peace and have an official and mutual end to hostilities. This isn't a Klauzewitzian war so much as it's "we need to send guys with guns somewhere. Call it a war? Close enough."

Added with the fact that these detainments are made by the military at the president's discretion, with absolutely no burden of proof on the accuser or legal recourse for the accused, and this shit is pretty fucking dystopic, guys.

Technically speaking, we don't even have a declaration of war- just an authorization to use force. I suppose it's semantics to pick it apart, but we haven't declared war since WW2 (Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria). The war on terrorism is just as likely to end as the war on drugs is.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Thesh » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:02 am UTC

I actually can't see this bill doing anything except lay down guidelines for detention. If you have a problem with this because of the scope of the authorization for the use of force, your real problem is with the authorization for the use of force. They could still detain you indefinitely before this bill, and they could still kill you.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:06 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Examples?


USA PATRIOT Act passed 98 to Feingold.

Some of us say 98 to Paul.


Paul is not a Senator, and he was not the only Representative to vote Nay. Feingold was the lone dissenter in the Senate.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby IcedT » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:21 am UTC

Thesh wrote:I actually can't see this bill doing anything except lay down guidelines for detention. If you have a problem with this because of the scope of the authorization for the use of force, your real problem is with the authorization for the use of force. They could still detain you indefinitely before this bill, and they could still kill you.

My problem is that the war on terror is in a huge legal gray area, and instead of clarifying that gray area, there's been a strong trend towards letting the military do whatever it likes to whoever it wants with absolute impunity. Each new development in that direction just gets more troubling and offensive.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Belial » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:28 am UTC

IcedT wrote:We have a declaration of war against an open and nonspecific set of people, that will realistically continue until a future president decides to call it over.


Like that one we've always been in with eurasia
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Proginoskes » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:59 am UTC

I think McCain's having flashbacks to Nam. Time to kick him out of politics.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:35 am UTC

Proginoskes wrote:I think McCain's having flashbacks to Nam. Time to kick him out of politics.


Really, kick out one of the few Republicans willing to work with Democrats, against torture/extraordinary-rendition/Gitmo and actually serious about eliminating wasteful spending? To be replaced with what, a hard-line Republican?

You sound like the people who, a few years ago, demanded that Bush be impeached and removed, so Cheney would do the job instead.

Belial wrote:
IcedT wrote:We have a declaration of war against an open and nonspecific set of people, that will realistically continue until a future president decides to call it over.


Like that one we've always been in with eurasia


Lies! We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia. Eurasia is our ally!
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Lucrece » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:01 am UTC

Where is the Kanye of politics? Way too many terms for people, and it's not like we can rely on senators/reps from limiting their own very profitable ventures in Congress.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:01 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Proginoskes wrote:I think McCain's having flashbacks to Nam. Time to kick him out of politics.


Really, kick out one of the few Republicans willing to work with Democrats, against torture/extraordinary-rendition/Gitmo and actually serious about eliminating wasteful spending? To be replaced with what, a hard-line Republican?

You sound like the people who, a few years ago, demanded that Bush be impeached and removed, so Cheney would do the job instead.


Yo dude I heard you like impeaching immediately after you impeach so we charged the VP right after we impeached the P so we made Pelosi the P so you can not have an incredibly blatantly corrupt P while you have a country.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:15 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
Proginoskes wrote:I think McCain's having flashbacks to Nam. Time to kick him out of politics.


Really, kick out one of the few Republicans willing to work with Democrats, against torture/extraordinary-rendition/Gitmo and actually serious about eliminating wasteful spending? To be replaced with what, a hard-line Republican?

You sound like the people who, a few years ago, demanded that Bush be impeached and removed, so Cheney would do the job instead.


Yo dude I heard you like impeaching immediately after you impeach so we charged the VP right after we impeached the P so we made Pelosi the P so you can not have an incredibly blatantly corrupt P while you have a country.


Remember when Pelosi specifically excluded an island from the minimum wage rise that Bumblebee Tuna (headquartered in her district) had a major plant in? She's just as corrupt as all the others. Who can forget "we have to pass the Healthcare bill so we know what's in it!"

You usually have two flavors of politician in the US ever to choose from, corrupt stooges or insufferable idealists. Sometimes, both in the same package. The best you can ever realistically hope for is a politician that's the public's corrupt stooge, but the definition of 'public' may vary.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:45 am UTC

Yeah, I don't ever have faith in politicians to do the right thing because it's the right thing. I'd just vote for representatives who enact policies I'm in favor of because the nature of their corruption makes them enact policies I'm in favour of.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby caisara » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:47 am UTC

.
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Sero » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:06 am UTC

To those of you interested to read the specific relevant sections, after digging through the links in the OPs article, I've found they're discussing sections 1031 and 1032 of the bill. The gist of it seems to be that, and I'm very tired and it's legalese, so I may be getting this wrong: 1031: If you're a terrorist, the military can do various things to you, including holding you without trial until the war on terror is over. 1032: The military is required to hold said terrorists in military custody until they are handled in one of the ways described in 1031. They are not required to do this to US citizens.

The issue as I see it is that specifying that stating something is not mandatory implies it is an option.

Scary, but...is this just a touch hysterical? Or am I too tired to grasp the full implications?

Edit: You know what, I should just link to the original analysis I was trying to paraphrase. It's probably more coherent.http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/does-the-ndaa-authorize-detention-of-us-citizens/
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Re: So... the entire United States is now a battleground

Postby Metaphysician » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:26 pm UTC

Sero wrote:To those of you interested to read the specific relevant sections, after digging through the links in the OPs article, I've found they're discussing sections 1031 and 1032 of the bill. The gist of it seems to be that, and I'm very tired and it's legalese, so I may be getting this wrong: 1031: If you're a terrorist, the military can do various things to you, including holding you without trial until the war on terror is over. 1032: The military is required to hold said terrorists in military custody until they are handled in one of the ways described in 1031. They are not required to do this to US citizens.

The issue as I see it is that specifying that stating something is not mandatory implies it is an option.

Scary, but...is this just a touch hysterical? Or am I too tired to grasp the full implications?

Edit: You know what, I should just link to the original analysis I was trying to paraphrase. It's probably more coherent.http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/does-the-ndaa-authorize-detention-of-us-citizens/


Many of the articles were referring to measures in a last minute amendment to the bill which contained much stronger language and which Rand Paul and some other Senators spearheaded the attempt to keep it from being added and won that battle. The bill still has a lot of troubling implications but it seems the amendment is what people were really enraged over.
What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.
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