Secret Santa 2011 - Game Over: Mistletoe and Wine

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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby mpolo » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:07 pm UTC

Hmmm... I perfectly understand AngrySquirrel's using her action right away. Being forced to do that on N3 when we have additional information would be disastrous. Now we have to watch out for N4…

An additional possibility for the lack of deaths would be that the mafia victim was protected, either through his own power or through the power of another.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby ForAllOfThis » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:37 pm UTC

AS voted for Adam H, then redirected the lynch away from him? Seems a little suspicous to me. If you thought Adam was scum (and was content with the lynch) why did you use your power? Or if you didn't think Adam was scum, then why did you vote for him? Either way it doesnt make much sense.

In todays post you indicate it was the latter, so why did you vote for Adam if you didn't think he was scum?

I also think using it later would have made more sense as well. The odds of hitting scum with a random lynch usually improve as the game goes on, and are at worst D1. Also leaving it until you had to use it would have meant you had to use it less times in the game overall, but by using it D1 you now have to use it D4 presumably? On the other hand if you had waited till D3, you wouldn't need to use it again till D6 (if the game gets that far). As the power is effectively taking the lynch away from us, that is quite a scummy move.

Massive FoS: AS

Her actions do not follow what I would expect from a town player. Perhaps my expectations are wrong (I can't see why mpolo & vieto didn't question this like I did), but my reasoning seems sound to me.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:10 pm UTC

Just needed... a few more... skylanders...

/die
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby tastelikecoke » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:16 pm UTC

Matthew 1:18-25 wrote:This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about:

The next day started oh so quick, and what the hell. AS is definitely in the spotlight with her gambler claim.
Analyzing on AS's actions though.
AS voted Adam H, and it fits well with her claim. First off, she never bothered to change it. Second, she claims that her vote is to clear up mud, not hunt scum. Maybe her vote is only a precaution if ever she gets roleblocked and etc., as she's gambling the lynch.
However ...
It's not a unanimously logical decision to gamble the lynch D1, as FAOT said. Turn lynch useless in D3, or D4? We have much info in D4, more deaths and more LyLo chances. D3? we have substantial info, but it's most likely not as deadly as D4.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby b.i.o » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:52 pm UTC

I'm on the side of thinking that using the randomizer probably wasn't a good idea. There's a nontrivial chance of you dying by the end of D3 anyway. And you've only bought yourself one day: now, if you do survive that long, you need to use it D4 anyway.

I'm still inclined to think AS is town though. I thought she was town before, and there's no real reason to claim if you're scum in this situation.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby ForAllOfThis » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

b.i.o wrote:I thought she was town before, and there's no real reason to claim if you're scum in this situation.


Except the flavour, stating that she killed BF.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby b.i.o » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:15 pm UTC

Oh. There was flavor. I didn't read any of that.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby Adam H » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:52 pm UTC

I live! Wow...

Well, assuming AS is telling the truth about her role, I can understand why she would use her ability on the first day. But I think it was a bad move if she thought I was worthy of a lynch. Odds are she won't agree with the result of both the D2 and D3 lynches, so if she really did think I should have died, then she shouldn't have saved me...

This is why AS said she voted for me:
AngrySquirrel wrote:I am voting for you because 1) I think it's more likely that you are scum than most others at this juncture. And 2) If someone muddy the waters more than they need to be muddied (and especially if it's on purpose), it's better to get rid of them early, before they contribute to too much confusion, than wait until the more crucial parts of the game.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby mpolo » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:05 pm UTC

FAOT's points about AS's use of her power are pretty much fairly taken. I think that there is probably a lot of psychological pressure to use an ability like that sooner rather than later, though, so I still think that it is understandable that she used it.

Up until now, I didn't really have anything about AS except for lurking, which she has explained, but I'm going to halfway reject the explanation there -- I can understand not wanting to get involved in certain conversations, but AS was essentially avoiding all conversations except once analyses started to occur. Wouldn't it be more townie to start the analysis phase yourself rather than hoping that people will eventually leave the topics you don't care to comment on?

This isn't a huge thing, either, but adds to the possibility of her really trying to active-lurk through the day.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby ConMan » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:53 pm UTC

So, after I went away, discussion finally got kick-started in a few more directions. AS and Adam H butted heads against each other quite a bit, which I guess is to be expected. Adam wanted to work out ways to break the game; AS didn't - and in this case I'm on AS's side, mainly because I think pancake should be able to play however pancake wants, but also because Mafia is meant to be a game of "outwit the other team", not "outwit the mod" (except in certain scenarios).

The Adam H lynching (at least, up until it was supposed to have happened) was interesting - he had (at a quick glance) 6 people voting for him at one point or another, but BF and roband both unvoted; roband to move his vote to BF based on an error in his analysis, and BF because he was worried about the bandwagon. Interestingly, if either mpolo or I had unvoted as BF suggested, but not voted AS, then we would have wound up in NL (and I wonder if AS's power would have triggered then). BF did seem to be wavering in what he thought AS's allegiance was, but I wonder whether he was planning to NK her* just to find out.

It does seem odd that AS would work so hard to get Adam H the lynch only to use her ability, but I guess there's always the chance to try again today. As for her ability, I wouldn't think that it's the kind of power you'd give to scum - you can happily join in a bandwagon on your team or not as the mood takes you, then when they're about to be lynched you take a chance that you'll actually take out town; it may be a little less useful if there's a chance the power will kill you instead, but then at least you wind up protecting someone else in your team who may have a stronger ability. I suppose it would also matter whether she can use it when she's the lynch target, making her effectively unlynchable? The flavour around her ability is violent, but I don't think that's necessarily a scumtell either - if she'd already drunk the contents of the bottle she used she was probably feeling a bit violent (and there's no reason the reveals of BF's kills wouldn't have been similarly violent).

Stranger still is the lack of NKs. I see no reason for scum to not have their usual NK (and no reason for them to have it other than tradition, but this *is* a Christmas-themed Mafia so what else can you rely on except tradition?), so as Vieto says either they were blocked or they targeted BF. Certainly he would have been a good target - town, hadn't yet hit anyone's scumdars significantly, except for roband's which I suspect would get cleared up today - but then why did nothing else happen? I know I used my night action, but it's not guaranteed to have any effects that I can see. Did anyone get any information that anything happened at all?

At this point, I think the "silent night" (mod and/or tlc, surely you could have worked with that?) is of more interest than AS's actions, although they'll probably be worth revisiting later on.

* Yeah, the pancake thing's amusing, but so awkward to put into practice.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby AngrySquirrel » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:22 pm UTC

ForAllOfThis wrote:AS voted for Adam H, then redirected the lynch away from him? Seems a little suspicous to me. If you thought Adam was scum (and was content with the lynch) why did you use your power? Or if you didn't think Adam was scum, then why did you vote for him? Either way it doesnt make much sense.

People's reactions to votes and vote patterns are valuable. While I do still think AdamH was the best target for a lynch before votes were handed out (that is; somewhat scummy, distracting and muddy) it doesn't necessarily mean I'm 100% sure he's scum. Day 1 lynch is always mostly random and day 1 is the day where who gets lynched matters the least. Put that together with me having no clue how many kills were in play in this game and the chance we might actually find scum or be at lylo by day 3 and I consider it the best timing for using my power.

ConMan wrote:It does seem odd that AS would work so hard to get Adam H the lynch only to use her ability.
Hard my ass.

Also now there are vote patterns to analyze.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby AngrySquirrel » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:14 pm UTC

Vote analysis Day 1:
Spoiler:
On the format:
Votefrom/Voteon - Their reasoning/My comment

Roband/AdamH - suggesting ideas which will not aid us in any way/seems legit, first vote = cookie points

Boomfrog/Roband - for voting for AdamH/pointless defensive vote to make people do what he wants, little info. But Boomfrog turned up town on death, so chunk it down to playing style.

mpolo/ConMan - lots of posts, but little "meat"/seems like legit vote

ConMan/AdamH - for saying stupid things/smells like an attempt at directing attention away from himself.

ForAllOfThis/tastelikecoke - for being serious about NL/Seems like a pressure vote mostly.

webby/Vieto - lurking/legit, but lurks a lot themselves. Keep an eye out.

tastelikecoke/mpolo - no better than ConMan, lurking?/hard to understand what tastelikecoke is saying here, keep an eye on him

Boomfrog/AngrySquirrel - lurking/different opinions on how to play leads to us not liking eachother, unimportant vote.

Gopher of Pern/AngrySquirrel - lurking/easy vote, slightly suspicious

roband/BoomFrog - error in his analysis/seemingly legit

AngrySquirrel/AdamH - muddy

tastelikecoke/ConMan - fluffy overthinking, pings scumdar/legit

b.i.o/Vieto - active lurking/easy vote, but legit enough reasoning, iffy feeling

AdamH/AngrySquirrel - quiet, lurking/smells like OMGUS

Boomfrog/tastelikecoke - earlier assessment, tlc advocating NL, voting mpolo/meh, another mostly defensive vote

b.i.o/AdamH - wants his vote to count on who to lynch/starting to smell a little, but unsure if it's bad cheese or good

mpolo/AdamH - pinging his scumdar/vote reasons seems a bit thin, keep an eye out.

Boomfrog/AngrySquirrel - wah wah you're not doing what I want you to do waaah/yet another vote based on wanting to tell people how they should act and not based on who he thinks is scum.


And after thinking about it for a while, I think it's probably a good idea to claim the role I sent in. I believe that the damage it can do to town is more problematic than me losing my vote.

I made an investigative role. However it was not quite sane (although it believes itself to be). If investigating scum it gets the result pro-town. If investigating town it gets the result scum and if investigating independents it finds them to be cheese. The only ones it finds the real alignment of are roles that are not supposed to give their real aligment, like godfather and miller-types. It is named "the littlest elf that could" or something along those lines.

And last but not least:
Vote: Webby
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby Adam H » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:35 pm UTC

No NK - It's possible that scum didn't send in an action in time. I'm looking mainly at those who may have missed the deadline: vieto and webby (and others?).

I could be wrong, but webby seems like he's been checking in every once in awhile and just doesn't have time to offer anything substantial. Whereas if Vieto were in fact in charge of the scum NK, I think he would have waited until the deadline to see the semi-final lynch tally before submitting the NK. But he got the deadline wrong and probably never submitted his night action. He also never voted yesterday, which is slightly annoying.

FoS: vieto.

AngrySquirrel wrote:Day 1 lynch is always mostly random and day 1 is the day where who gets lynched matters the least. Put that together with me having no clue how many kills were in play in this game and the chance we might actually find scum or be at lylo by day 3 and I consider it the best timing for using my power.
You're not looking ahead far enough. I would think that D4 is going to be more critical than D3.

And I like your vote analysis in which you're pretty sure that BF is still scum.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby AngrySquirrel » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:24 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:And I like your vote analysis in which you're pretty sure that BF is still scum.

Did I say that? Have I at any point said that I think BoomFrog has been scum this game? No. In fact I think I've said just the opposite of that several times. Stop misrepresenting my opinions and reasonings, it does not exactly make you seem less like a major source of muddy waters.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby Adam H » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:05 pm UTC

OK, OBVIOUSLY you don't ACTUALLY think misnomer is lying and BF is in fact a dead scum. I was just pointing out that you clearly had a problem with BF's playing style, and your scumdar is 0 for 2, at least from my perspective.
AngrySquirrel wrote:Boomfrog/Roband - for voting for AdamH/pointless defensive vote to make people do what he wants, little info. But Boomfrog turned up town on death, so chunk it down to playing style.
...
Boomfrog/AngrySquirrel - lurking/different opinions on how to play leads to us not liking eachother, unimportant vote.
...
Boomfrog/tastelikecoke - earlier assessment, tlc advocating NL, voting mpolo/meh, another mostly defensive vote
...
Boomfrog/AngrySquirrel - wah wah you're not doing what I want you to do waaah/yet another vote based on wanting to tell people how they should act and not based on who he thinks is scum.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby AngrySquirrel » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:29 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:OK, OBVIOUSLY you don't ACTUALLY think misnomer is lying and BF is in fact a dead scum. I was just pointing out that you clearly had a problem with BF's playing style, and your scumdar is 0 for 2, at least from my perspective.
AngrySquirrel wrote:Boomfrog/Roband - for voting for AdamH/pointless defensive vote to make people do what he wants, little info. But Boomfrog turned up town on death, so chunk it down to playing style.
...
Boomfrog/AngrySquirrel - lurking/different opinions on how to play leads to us not liking eachother, unimportant vote.
...
Boomfrog/tastelikecoke - earlier assessment, tlc advocating NL, voting mpolo/meh, another mostly defensive vote
...
Boomfrog/AngrySquirrel - wah wah you're not doing what I want you to do waaah/yet another vote based on wanting to tell people how they should act and not based on who he thinks is scum.

Yes, I don't like BoomFrog's playingstyle, that's not exactly a secret. That doesn't mean I find him scummy though. Playingstyle != player.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby b.i.o » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:30 am UTC

I'm going to renew my Vieto-vote. I think my reasoning from yesterday still stands.

vote: Vieto

Even now that I've actually read the flavor, I lean town on AS. Largely out of just general gut feeling, I think. I feel like scum-AS is...angrier...maybe.

BoomFrog is pinging me as well, but I don't really have enough experience playing with him to tell if that's just me not liking how he plays or if he's actually scummy. Also getting some pings from mpolo.

Sorry for me not being very cogent or helpful right now...I'm really tired, and have not been putting enough effort into this game. I'll reread for tomorrow.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby AngrySquirrel » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:52 am UTC

b.i.o wrote:BoomFrog is pinging me as well, but I don't really have enough experience playing with him to tell if that's just me not liking how he plays or if he's actually scummy.
Pssst, he's dead.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby b.i.o » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:00 am UTC

...this is why I shouldn't be allowed to post in mafia threads when I'm tired.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby tastelikecoke » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:48 am UTC

I think if Boomfrog haven't died I would have marked him scummy too, with those weird voting patterns. He changed his vote three times after all. I don't believe that Boomfrog usually acts that way though.

Conman wrote:At this point, I think the "silent night" (mod and/or tlc, surely you could have worked with that?) is of more interest than AS's actions, although they'll probably be worth revisiting later on.

I don't get what you mean :? Is this some trick to confuse me?
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby webby » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:38 am UTC

Yes, I'm still here, just prioritising the other game because it's about to be night there and this one we still have a week. I mentioned in the other game that I'd be pretty busy until the 19th, should be fine to post more from now.

I don't think AngrySquirrel's use of power was scummy - I would have used it then as well if I had it, because I think we generally do worse than random with our lynch on Day 1. It does make AS effectively unlynchable though. If AngrySquirrel is scum, then I assume Adam H is as well.

I'm not surprised at all that Boomfrog turned out to be a vig - he was hinting at that all day 1.

More later, the other game could hit deadline at any time, then I'll focus more on this one.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby mpolo » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:55 pm UTC

Argh! I just noticed that I haven't posted in two days. I will correct this this evening -- I have class right now…
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby Adam H » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:22 pm UTC

quote="AngrySquirrel"]Yes, I don't like BoomFrog's playingstyle, that's not exactly a secret. That doesn't mean I find him scummy though. Playingstyle != player.[/quote]OK, then should we just ignore all your comments because you are only talking about the playstyle? Was this a playing style comment or a scumminess comment:
AngrySquirrel wrote:ConMan/AdamH - for saying stupid things/smells like an attempt at directing attention away from himself.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby Misnomer » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:38 pm UTC

Votals:

Vieto (1): b.i.o
Webby (1): Angry Squirrel
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby AngrySquirrel » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:52 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
AngrySquirrel wrote:Yes, I don't like BoomFrog's playingstyle, that's not exactly a secret. That doesn't mean I find him scummy though. Playingstyle != player.
OK, then should we just ignore all your comments because you are only talking about the playstyle? Was this a playing style comment or a scumminess comment:
AngrySquirrel wrote:ConMan/AdamH - for saying stupid things/smells like an attempt at directing attention away from himself.

That's a comment on the vote...
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby Misnomer » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:14 pm UTC

t1mm01994 is replacing Vieto with immediate effect.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby Adam H » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:55 pm UTC

Come on AS, do you really not get what I am saying?

What is the purpose of your vote analysis? I would have thought you were analyzing votes to see who has been acting suspiciously. But if you don't think BF was acting suspiciously, then your entire analysis makes no sense to me because I can't tell who you do think was acting suspiciously.

And if you DO think that BF was acting suspiciously, then my original snarky statement applies ("I like your vote analysis in which you're pretty sure that BF is still scum").
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby t1mm01994 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:03 pm UTC

The 2nd lunatic from Amy's surprise now enters Secret Santa! Feels good to be here. I'll get on with reading up and doing stuff tomorrow, so I'll be back!
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby mpolo » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:12 pm UTC

I read AS's vote analysis as an attempt to read the previous day in a neutral manner, commenting on what the votes looked like to her. In the case of BoomFrog, she admits that he flipped town, so the suspicion that would have accrued from strange voting patterns would obviously be false.

And I found that post quite helpful, which is putting me in the "AS is leaning town" camp. She has picked up on her posting rate as well, so the fear of lurkiness on Day 1 is pretty much negated.

AdamH was kind of harping on that post, but I'm not seeing that as particularly scummy. I am trying to be cautious with AdamH, because I'm finding it really easy to read him as scummy just from gut feeling.

Welcome to t1mm — it's nice to be able to avoid a modkill.

We need to watch the votals today, because AS's vote presumably doesn't count after her claim.

Conman had a kind of weird note about "silent night" directed at TLC -- presumably he is referring to her apparent post restriction, and that she could have used the restriction to make a funny. Conman is looking better today than yesterday, in general.

b.i.o had a confused vote for t1mm before he even entered the game.

I'm not getting any major vibes here. Will re-read tomorrow.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby Gopher of Pern » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:23 pm UTC

Again, sorry for not posting more. I will really not have much time until after xmas.

I'm feeling a bit better about AS. My vote was mainly on the lack of general content, which has been remedied. Despite the (IMO) less than ideal use of the power, I don't believe it was a scummy move, and can understand the reasoning. Since then AS has been pretty helpful.

No other kill means there was no mafia kill, it was blocked, or it was against BF. The latter 2 are more likely IMO.

ATM Adam is pinging me, mainly for the tiff with AS, as I'm pretty sure AS is town. Not enough to vote yet.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby ConMan » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:52 am UTC

Yep, my comment was just an offhand remark that either tlc, with his posting restriction, or Misnomer, in modifying the thread title for today, could have worked off "Silent Night". Ah well, throw it into the bin of unused ideas with all the rest then.

I interpret AS's vote analysis as a bit of a "stream of consciousness" thing, trying to identify things that are pinging her scumdar. Adam H's jumping on her for some of those things could just be some unwise play (he's made a bit of that so far), or it could be an attempt to make her look scummy (in which case, it's backfiring a bit). In any case, it still looks like he's drawing attention to himself through his combative playstyle, and that's making it hard for me to see if other people are acting scummy.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby roband » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:50 am UTC

Posting to make.myself read thru and post again today.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby AngrySquirrel » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:31 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Come on AS, do you really not get what I am saying?

What is the purpose of your vote analysis? I would have thought you were analyzing votes to see who has been acting suspiciously. But if you don't think BF was acting suspiciously, then your entire analysis makes no sense to me because I can't tell who you do think was acting suspiciously.

And if you DO think that BF was acting suspiciously, then my original snarky statement applies ("I like your vote analysis in which you're pretty sure that BF is still scum").

Do you really not understand the difference between poor playingstyle and being scummy? Really? You don't see any difference between "this vote is founded on weak or easy reasoning, making the voter seem suspicious" and "I don't like the way this person plays"? BF votes to make other people unvote or do what he says, it discourages people from having an opinion and doesn't give us any info or breadcrumbs on where he stands himself. That is, in my opinion, poor play, at least if you're town. But that doesn't mean I immediately think he's scum, if poor play meant scum then I'd be voting for you, because the only thing you've been doing so far in this game is provide distractions and pointless arguements. You're being an tempting lynch-target that scum can jump on without seeming scummy because you're making it so easy to do so.

The 3 main reasons for player-analyses are: 1) to give power-roles a chance to breadcrumb their investigations and knowledge (the non-vital, but oh so useful stuff) without outing themselves. 2) Force scum to have opinions, thereby outing themselves or their partners. 3) Sorting out your own thoughts and figuring out the reasons for those gut-feelings and knee-jerk reactions.

Sharing thoughts and figuring out if anyone agrees with you is a by-product. It can be a useful by-product, but mainly what I'm saying here is that the point is not to get you to agree with me. I write my analysis mainly to sort my own thoughts and make sure I don't get lead on by unfounded reactions and emotions.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby AngrySquirrel » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:03 am UTC

Btw. I'll be going away tomorrow morning and will have trouble getting online for at least 2 days, possibly more (although seeing as my mum called yesterday reminding me that I need to fix 3 computers for her, I think I might be able to drum together at least a couple of excuses to get online). I won't have regular net again until after new year though. If this poses a problem, feel free to replace me (I'll do what I can for it not to be a problem though).
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby tastelikecoke » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:17 am UTC

About the remark of Adam H concerning what had been a point that AS didn't get, it bugs me if this is attempt to argue that AS is scum or just a random quip. Because either way it's just plain unproductive because it doesn't even pressure AS to make a contentious reply. It's more like looking for a lecture about scumhunting.
...
Eeep, doesn't lead to anything actually.
But as for what I had seen in the thread so far, Adam H really wants to discuss useless things, e.g.
Adam H wrote:That tlc "post restriction" is interesting. Is it worth talking about?
...
If you don't discuss how the game is breakable, you might break the game on accident (That game where we could lie-detect and truthify statements comes to mind).
...
What's with the muddy water metaphor? It's not like D1 waters are usually crystal clear. I'm sorry if you feel like I distracted you away from important issues.
....
Out of curiosity: ...bolded text blah...
For now Adam H is more of a neutral now, bleh. I have an idea though.

@Adam H: How about you doing an all-player vote analysis :o ?
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby roband » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:04 am UTC

So, I've read through.

I can understand why AS felt using her power was a good idea, as early in the game as possible - but FAOT makes a good point with,
ForAllOfThis wrote:AS voted for Adam H, then redirected the lynch away from him? Seems a little suspicous to me. If you thought Adam was scum (and was content with the lynch) why did you use your power? Or if you didn't think Adam was scum, then why did you vote for him? Either way it doesnt make much sense.


But AdamH remains scummy-looking to me, from D1. I'll reserve judgement on AS for now.

Conman is posting frequently with lots of content, I like this.

Adam H wrote:Whereas if Vieto were in fact in charge of the scum NK, I think he would have waited until the deadline to see the semi-final lynch tally before submitting the NK. But he got the deadline wrong and probably never submitted his night action. He also never voted yesterday, which is slightly annoying.

FoS: vieto.

I have a problem with this. If I were scum and I missed my deadline, I would not turn up and announce "oh, I missed the deadline". In fact, Vieto's first post of D2, where he suggests scum may have targetted BF brings up a good point that no-one else seems to have mentioned. It's certainly possible.

So yeah, I'm going to renew my vote from D1:

Vote: AdamH

for the exact same reasons as D1, plus the stuff up ^there^.

I want to hear more from Tim and GoP please :)
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby mpolo » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:13 pm UTC

There are essentially 4 possibilities:

1) There is no night kill (I don't believe this for a minute)
2) There are blocking powers
3) BoomFrog was targeted
4) The mafia failed to send in their kill

I think that some combination of 2 and 3 is by far the most likely situation.

I was kind of wondering about roband's vested interest in defending Vieto t1mm (with a kind of psycho-wine reason), but in this case, I think that I agree with roband. We can't really read a lot into Vieto's absence. It's a possible solution to the problem, but not particularly probable (especially since the mafia is presumably more than one person, and in the absence of the leader, surely the others would have asked the mod to process the kill -- I suppose it's possible that the mod said no, but probably unlikely, as a missing kill is somewhat game-breaking if it comes about like that).
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby ForAllOfThis » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:05 am UTC

I'm still really busy at work / with xmas and this is more of a check-in at the moment so I'm not going to post too much content an essay now. Was hoping for abit more content to comment on but I guess everyone is a little busy right now. I feel TLC is making much 'safer' posts today so far compared to his bold stand on the NL idea yesterday. I'm not sure if that is a good thing, it doesn't seem to be intentional (but I haven't forgot about you TLC).

Personally think we are looking at a medic/roleblock (and I would advise any successful roleblock to claim at this point, it could really help track down scum), just because it seems more likely than a random target landing on scums choice of target.

I found the following part from AS quite scummy:

AngrySquirrel wrote:And after thinking about it for a while, I think it's probably a good idea to claim the role I sent in. I believe that the damage it can do to town is more problematic than me losing my vote.

I made an investigative role. However it was not quite sane (although it believes itself to be). If investigating scum it gets the result pro-town. If investigating town it gets the result scum and if investigating independents it finds them to be cheese. The only ones it finds the real alignment of are roles that are not supposed to give their real aligment, like godfather and miller-types. It is named "the littlest elf that could" or something along those lines.

And last but not least:
Vote: Webby


For the following reasons:

1) Seems like a way to fuck with our cop by claiming you sent in an insane role (when you may have sent in a normal cop), with no reason to trust your word. I dislike it because it encourages our cop to ignore scum-positive results. Although I can see the advantages of claiming now compared to the wine that would have been spilled if you had claimed after a cop result was brought forward.

2) You've still put a vote down (which supports my first point that this might be a false claim). The mod has already stated that Votes that have been taken away will still be counted in the votals, but will not be counted at end of day. So if its an attempt to show that you are telling the truth then it's a slight fail. As it was prettly clearly stated by the mod, this looks like an attempt to put a sneaky vote on Webby without any reasoning, or anyone counting it (although I have no idea why you would want to do that).

A lot of people seem to think you're town AS and I do think the rest of your input has been good. However my concerns with the quote above and your terrible reasoning to use your power yesterday is keeping me on the cautious side. Right now I do think your the scummiest today, so I have to put my vote where my concerns are.

Vote: AngrySquirrel

I would place Adam at a close second for seeming like he has an ulterior motive, using terrible reasoning to justify lynching you and TLC third for pinging me yesterday and dropping off the radar. I'll be keeping up to date on the game but may not find time until the weekend for another post.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby AngrySquirrel » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:15 am UTC

ForAllOfThis wrote:2) You've still put a vote down (which supports my first point that this might be a false claim). The mod has already stated that Votes that have been taken away will still be counted in the votals, but will not be counted at end of day. So if its an attempt to show that you are telling the truth then it's a slight fail. As it was prettly clearly stated by the mod, this looks like an attempt to put a sneaky vote on Webby without any reasoning, or anyone counting it (although I have no idea why you would want to do that).

There's two problems with your reasoning here.

1) I'm not putting down my vote to prove I'm telling the truth. I put down my vote cause I think Webby is getting away with posting next to nothing and that's not very confidence inducing. I will keep voting, whether my vote counts or not, so that people will know where I stand.

2) I have given a reason for my vote on Webby. Namely, I find their lack of posts a problem. 2 post on day 1 and 1 post on day 2 promising more content later is not going to cut it with me. Not until I at least see the promised later content. There's also, on read through, a couple of things that bug me about their second day 1 post (very diplomatic tone, finding two players scummiest but voting for someone else, the very vague comment on FAOT), but there's a rather large chance that's just my paranoia speaking.
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Re: Secret Santa 2011 - Day 2 - Winter Wonderland

Postby webby » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:36 am UTC

Yeah I accept I haven't given enough content. I'll try to do more - given there's not much real discussion going on, here's an analysis of some of the players as a starting point.

Vieto - Absolutely nothing until the player analysis. Suspicious of AngrySquirrel, b.i.o, webby, Adam H and sort of Conman, but in every case includes a 'but'. On the fence about most of the other players. Overall, leaves an out in case player turns up town and is very on the fence. I'll just note here a slight idea of a link with AS based on the second post on day 2 - says that AS's justification seems valid without explaining/expanding on it. Still not much information, still find them suspicious.

AngrySquirrel - Feeling that she's town based on the fact that the alignments weren't distributed randomly and her power feels like a power that would be given to town rather than scum. That's not something I'd say definitely, it's just a feeling. Also, I think scum would be more likely to hold on to their power rather than use it day 1, unless of course Adam H is scum. Overall, feeling reasonably townie and if I felt like lynching her, I'd probably lynch Adam H first instead.

Possible paranoid thing - Boomfrog said just before the end of the day that he thought AS and mpolo were scum. If AS is lying and she can choose her target, Boomfrog would likely have been her choice.

GoP - Busy, not much to go off.

b.i.o - Not much content lately, posts seem rushed. Not much to go off.

mpolo - Boomfrog thought he was scum for some reason (I'm guessing the Adam H bandwagon). I agree with Boomfrog that the justification for the vote on Adam H was quite weak, but I thought he was town based on the rest of his content, so I'm going to go neutral overall.


That's five of the ten players, hope the ideas start at least some discussion and I'll post more later.
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