SOPA talk, yo.

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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:31 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:But what if they are knowingly profiting off of piracy?


They take down infringing content on request, which should qualify them for safe harbour provisions like any service provider (a court already ruled Youtube does).
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Chen » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:32 pm UTC

Ghostbear wrote:Why do other nations sign extradition treaties with the US? These stories are really making me wonder. I guess that's probably at least partially a result of our big military (segue to that other thread!) but really, it doesn't look like they actually get anything out of it.


It lets them remove "criminals" from their country and have the US front the bill for prosecuting and incarcerating them? And then they can hide behind "well we had a treaty with them so we had to do it". The US looks like the bad guys, the country in question looks like they're suffering because the big USA "tricked" them into a treaty. Seems like at least a somewhat good reason to do it.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:36 pm UTC

What, would you implement in place of said policy?

In the whole "everything is digital" world we live in. Crimes can be commited from afar that affect people/companies in the United States. I hate to simplify it but it seems as though you are saying they shouldn't face punishment as long as they never left their home country or that we should leave the punishment up to their own government.

Would that sum it up?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:38 pm UTC

If we want to prosecute, we should have to to prosecute the people involved in the illegal activity that we actually have jurisdiction over (for example, the people who actually uploaded and downloaded the pirated content).
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:39 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
Panonadin wrote:But what if they are knowingly profiting off of piracy?


They take down infringing content on request, which should qualify them for safe harbour provisions like any service provider (a court already ruled Youtube does).


So we are operating off the assumtion that they were not given the chance to take down said content.

I'm not an employee at "MEGA" but to a certain extent these websites play the fool and cash the checks. If 90% of the "pirate world" know that you can go to Mega Upload to get stolen (see: copied) things. Then Mega Upload knows it too. At what point would you say they have to take steps to avoid this situation on thier own?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby aoeu » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:41 pm UTC

Any service of this kind will be used for piracy.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:45 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:What, would you implement in place of said policy?

In the whole "everything is digital" world we live in. Crimes can be commited from afar that affect people/companies in the United States. I hate to simplify it but it seems as though you are saying they shouldn't face punishment as long as they never left their home country or that we should leave the punishment up to their own government.


I think the latter point is the correct one. If you are living in New Zealand, you should have to follow the laws of New Zealand, not those of the United States. Consider a reversed example: should companies in the United States have to follow environmental regulations of the European Union? Pollution from factories in the United States could certainly affect European citizens.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:46 pm UTC

And the law places the responsibility for finding and removing pirated content on the backs of the copyright holder. What they were doing should have been legal, as long as they responded to DMCA requests. If they didn't, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish though.

This charge seems to claim they didn't, but the technical details of the claim lead me to believe the charges won't hold, honestly. Or at least that they shouldn't, if it is as they describe.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Ghostbear » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:51 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Ghostbear wrote:Why do other nations sign extradition treaties with the US? These stories are really making me wonder. I guess that's probably at least partially a result of our big military (segue to that other thread!) but really, it doesn't look like they actually get anything out of it.


It lets them remove "criminals" from their country and have the US front the bill for prosecuting and incarcerating them? And then they can hide behind "well we had a treaty with them so we had to do it". The US looks like the bad guys, the country in question looks like they're suffering because the big USA "tricked" them into a treaty. Seems like at least a somewhat good reason to do it.

Yeah, but.. that sounds like something with little to no practical benefits to the host nation.

Panonadin wrote:In the whole "everything is digital" world we live in. Crimes can be commited from afar that affect people/companies in the United States. I hate to simplify it but it seems as though you are saying they shouldn't face punishment as long as they never left their home country or that we should leave the punishment up to their own government.

Would that sum it up?

And what is wrong with them not facing punishment for not breaking the laws of where they reside, visit, and / or have citizenship of? Should I be arrested for all of the Iranian or North Korean or Russian or Chinese laws I'm probably breaking?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:56 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:What, would you implement in place of said policy?

In the whole "everything is digital" world we live in. Crimes can be commited from afar that affect people/companies in the United States. I hate to simplify it but it seems as though you are saying they shouldn't face punishment as long as they never left their home country or that we should leave the punishment up to their own government.

Would that sum it up?


So person A happened to be outside US jurisdiction and did something that isn't illegal in the place where he performed the action. What crime was committed?

P.S. I also find it entertaining that you imply 'being prosecuted under local law instead of US law' is unacceptable.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:00 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:I'm not an employee at "MEGA" but to a certain extent these websites play the fool and cash the checks. If 90% of the "pirate world" know that you can go to Mega Upload to get stolen (see: copied) things. Then Mega Upload knows it too. At what point would you say they have to take steps to avoid this situation on thier own?


The alternative is to require sites to vet uploads, and equivalently require ISPs to vet traffic, against some database of all known copyrighted material. But then they have to make value judgements about fair use, and about what goes on that database. Both of which are unfair burdens on the service provider.

It should be for the copyright owner to find and flag the infringing content (really not hard, casual pirates don't go deeper than 4 pages of Google results and neither should media company employees) and for the uploader to dispute the claim adversarially to prove fair use or whatever. Youtube "knows" that most of their content is copyrighted TV show clips as well, but if they started removing content on their own there would be a lot of false positive takedowns.

As usual, the effect of taking down the site will be minimal. There are plenty of alternative hosting sites, and I'd say everything illegal on Megaupload that people would want is also accessible right now via torrents or other file upload sites. But for people using it to share their legal content, that might be the only place it was up.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:09 pm UTC

Yeah, but.. that sounds like something with little to no practical benefits to the host nation.


One argument could be that the host nation is protecting it's interests/citizens. That's operating on the assumption that the offender would continue to commit crimes due to the fact that the other nation wouldn't prosecute the offender.

And what is wrong with them not facing punishment for not breaking the laws of where they reside, visit, and / or have citizenship of? Should I be arrested for all of the Iranian or North Korean or Russian or Chinese laws I'm probably breaking?


Simply no.

If it is say illegal for you to vote as a woman in Iran and you vote as a woman in America. No way should you be in trouble because it is illegal in Iran. You didn't affect Iran in any way. However what I meant and apparently didn't explain clearly is that if you live in Country X and you break a law in Country Y and that law is both illegal in Country X AND Y, then IMHO you should face prosecution. I don't know where I stand on if thats persued by Country X or Y but by someone.

Further, to touch back on the MEGA situation. If you know that 10% of your content is illegal/infringing and you seemingly take no steps to prevent it you are somewhat responsible for that infrigement. At least that is my opinion.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:13 pm UTC

They took steps to prevent it - in fact, they removed it whenever and wherever it was found.

The legal issue is, I think, because the FBI suspects they were actually uploading infringing content as company policies to their own server. Whether or not that is true is something else, but the law is very clear that removing copyrighted material when requested is another action.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:20 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:I'm not an employee at "MEGA" but to a certain extent these websites play the fool and cash the checks. If 90% of the "pirate world" know that you can go to Mega Upload to get stolen (see: copied) things. Then Mega Upload knows it too. At what point would you say they have to take steps to avoid this situation on thier own?

At what point does a tool which is used for legitimate purposes deserve to be outlawed because it can be used for illegal acts? As an example, if pirates use CollegeHumor.com for piracy, then it's shut down, so pirates use Megaupload.com for piracy, then it's shut down, so pirates use Youtube.com for piracy, is it Youtube's fault that their site is being used as a tool for piracy? For a tangential example: if a rash of golf club murders occur, is the golf club maker liable? Do we rant and rave about how "Callaway is profiting from murder!!!"?

If the tool has a legitimate purpose, I don't see any reason why the tool-maker should be required to police its customers to ensure they aren't using the tool illegally.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Ghostbear » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:24 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:One argument could be that the host nation is protecting it's interests/citizens. That's operating on the assumption that the offender would continue to commit crimes due to the fact that the other nation wouldn't prosecute the offender.

The whole point is that they aren't committing crimes! If they can't be bothered to make something illegal themselves, then they probably aren't too concerned with people doing it- either they feel it should be legal, or that it should be illegal but they couldn't plausibly police the crime, or that it might not be good for them but doesn't cause enough harm to care about. Regardless, it's not a crime, so how is it in their interest to ship people off for not breaking their laws?

Panonadin wrote:
And what is wrong with them not facing punishment for not breaking the laws of where they reside, visit, and / or have citizenship of? Should I be arrested for all of the Iranian or North Korean or Russian or Chinese laws I'm probably breaking?


Simply no.

If it is say illegal for you to vote as a woman in Iran and you vote as a woman in America. No way should you be in trouble because it is illegal in Iran. You didn't affect Iran in any way. However what I meant and apparently didn't explain clearly is that if you live in Country X and you break a law in Country Y and that law is both illegal in Country X AND Y, then IMHO you should face prosecution. I don't know where I stand on if thats persued by Country X or Y but by someone.

Right, but it wasn't illegal in their own country. That's the whole point. As for affecting the other nations, I'm pretty sure if I tried I could break their laws in a manner that affects them- probably something along the lines of illegal distribution of information (Tienanmen Square? Forbidden reading materials? There's probably lots of options, and I'm sure there's something illegal in there)- without setting foot in, or even near, those countries. Should I face persecution from them if I did that?

Panonadin wrote:Further, to touch back on the MEGA situation. If you know that 10% of your content is illegal/infringing and you seemingly take no steps to prevent it you are somewhat responsible for that infrigement. At least that is my opinion.

I'd wager that more than 10% of the content passed through bittorent is illegal- should they be responsible for that? The web site was just a tool- they followed the law in taking down it's illegal uses as they were required to. What more would you ask of them? Should anything with too high of an illegal use rate be made illegal itself?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:26 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:If it is say illegal for you to vote as a woman in Iran and you vote as a woman in America. No way should you be in trouble because it is illegal in Iran. You didn't affect Iran in any way. However what I meant and apparently didn't explain clearly is that if you live in Country X and you break a law in Country Y and that law is both illegal in Country X AND Y, then IMHO you should face prosecution. I don't know where I stand on if thats persued by Country X or Y but by someone.

Your example is very confusing. If you break a law in Y then you get prosecuted in Y. If you break a Y law as a citizen of X while being in X then you don't get prosecuted by anyone. Not sure how a law can be illegal but assuming you meant whatever you did is illegal in X & Y... well, you are a citizen of X and committed the crime in X, why would you be prosecuted in Y?

As a recent real world example there is this case. American citizen kills a British citizen in Italy. Crime happened in Italy so it broke Italian law and that's the place where the trial is supposed to happen.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Belial » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:27 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote: However what I meant and apparently didn't explain clearly is that if you live in Country X and you break a law in Country Y and that law is both illegal in Country X AND Y, then IMHO you should face prosecution. I don't know where I stand on if thats persued by Country X or Y but by someone.


So in a situation that bears no resemblance to the situation that occurred in the actual real world where we live, this action is in your opinion justified, therefore it is also justified in this situation to which it bears no resemblance? Awesome. Can you be my lawyer?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:27 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Panonadin wrote:I'm not an employee at "MEGA" but to a certain extent these websites play the fool and cash the checks. If 90% of the "pirate world" know that you can go to Mega Upload to get stolen (see: copied) things. Then Mega Upload knows it too. At what point would you say they have to take steps to avoid this situation on thier own?

At what point does a tool which is used for legitimate purposes deserve to be outlawed because it can be used for illegal acts? As an example, if pirates use CollegeHumor.com for piracy, then it's shut down, so pirates use Megaupload.com for piracy, then it's shut down, so pirates use Youtube.com for piracy, is it Youtube's fault that their site is being used as a tool for piracy? For a tangential example: if a rash of golf club murders occur, is the golf club maker liable? Do we rant and rave about how "Callaway is profiting from murder!!!"?

If the tool has a legitimate purpose, I don't see any reason why the tool-maker should be required to police its customers to ensure they aren't using the tool illegally.


In what world does this seem like a valid opposition to my statement. When pirates use those other examples for piracy and those other sites know about it fully and do nothing then, yes they should face SOME SORT of punishment. What type of punishment is up in the air, shut downs, fines, suspensions, etc.

The golf club analogy is so far out there I'm not even going to respond to it other than to point that out. I can't even take it seriously.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:29 pm UTC

Here's a better analogy:

It is illegal, in China, to post critiques of the communist party.

If someone in America posts those critiques, on the internet, where a chinese person could read them, should we extradite them to China for prosecution? Should China be allowed to stop the entire world from using their site?

(Because that analogy is pretty much identical)
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:31 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:If it is say illegal for you to vote as a woman in Iran and you vote as a woman in America. No way should you be in trouble because it is illegal in Iran. You didn't affect Iran in any way. However what I meant and apparently didn't explain clearly is that if you live in Country X and you break a law in Country Y and that law is both illegal in Country X AND Y, then IMHO you should face prosecution. I don't know where I stand on if thats persued by Country X or Y but by someone.


Well sure, if you break the laws in your own country, then you should be charged under those laws. The question is, what if uploading/downloading copyrighted content is not illegal in some country? Should the US be able to extradite people there to face charges in the US? I'll use an example I gave earlier to illustrate the point: Here in Canada, copyrights expire after death + 50 years. In the United States, it's death + 70. So, as of this moment, the works of Ernest Hemingway are public domain in Canada, but still under copyright in the United States. If I were to upload the complete works of Ernest Hemingway onto my Canadian server, do you feel it is right that American companies can arrest/extradite me for copyright infringement?

Panonadin wrote:The golf club analogy is so far out there I'm not even going to respond to it other than to point that out. I can't even take it seriously.


Easier example: should gun makers be responsible for gun-related crimes?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:31 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Panonadin wrote:If it is say illegal for you to vote as a woman in Iran and you vote as a woman in America. No way should you be in trouble because it is illegal in Iran. You didn't affect Iran in any way. However what I meant and apparently didn't explain clearly is that if you live in Country X and you break a law in Country Y and that law is both illegal in Country X AND Y, then IMHO you should face prosecution. I don't know where I stand on if thats persued by Country X or Y but by someone.

Your example is very confusing. If you break a law in Y then you get prosecuted in Y. If you break a Y law as a citizen of X while being in X then you don't get prosecuted by anyone. Not sure how a law can be illegal but assuming you meant whatever you did is illegal in X & Y... well, you are a citizen of X and committed the crime in X, why would you be persecuted in Y?

As a recent real world example there is this case. American citizen kills a British citizen in Italy. Crime happened in Italy so it broke Italian law and that's the place where the trial is supposed to happen.



Why? Because this isn't a physical crime like murder or what ever other crap everyone is throwing in to make a point.

If piracy is illegal in France and you live in France but you steal content from the US and host it in the US and piracy is also illegal in the US is France going to hunt you down? As far as I know, no, they aren't.

That is why Country X IE: the US would be the ones to prosecute you.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:33 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:When pirates use those other examples for piracy and those other sites know about it fully and do nothing then, yes they should face SOME SORT of punishment.


They don't know about it fully. They know about it in general, but if THEY were to pick a specific file out they couldn't tell whether it was fair use or infringement. That is for the DMCA process to decide, which has to be initiated by the copyright holder.

If you believe it IS on the site to decide whether a file is infringing, for everything uploaded to them, we can debate that.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby dragonmustang » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:34 pm UTC

Sorry, but back to the Mega thing...

The DoJ did this takedown without SOPA or PIPA.... To me, this seems to indicate they don't think they even need those bills in order to enforce piracy. Why again is Congress trying to get these through?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:35 pm UTC

Well sure, if you break the laws in your own country, then you should be charged under those laws. The question is, what if uploading/downloading copyrighted content is not illegal in some country? Should the US be able to extradite people there to face charges in the US? I'll use an example I gave earlier to illustrate the point: Here in Canada, copyrights expire after death + 50 years. In the United States, it's death + 70. So, as of this moment, the works of Ernest Hemingway are public domain in Canada, but still under copyright in the United States. If I were to upload the complete works of Ernest Hemingway onto my Canadian server, do you feel it is right that American companies can arrest/extradite me for copyright infringement?


No. According to the article I read and forgive my very short memory but the infrining content was found on US servers based on US soil and I'm sure (assuming here) a lot of the content was US owned.

In your example, that stuff is free to use in your country and you hosted it in your country.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:37 pm UTC

dragonmustang wrote:Sorry, but back to the Mega thing...

The DoJ did this takedown without SOPA or PIPA.... To me, this seems to indicate they don't think they even need those bills in order to enforce piracy.


In the midst of holding all of the other back and forths. I want to comment on how stupid this is. If they don't even need bills and laws to back up their actions then honestly what the fuck.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:38 pm UTC

The bills were to allow the media companies to do this sort of thing on their own without getting the fbi involved and bothering with expensive stuff like investigations.

And again:
It is illegal, in China, to post critiques of the communist party.

If someone in America posts those critiques, on the internet, where a chinese person could read them, should we extradite them to China for prosecution? Should China be allowed to stop the entire world from using their site? What if it ended up on a Chinese server? Say, a person was using the social networking site based in china, and said they disliked the Communist party to the chinese friends they hang out with there. Should we extradite them?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Ghostbear » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:39 pm UTC

dragonmustang wrote:Sorry, but back to the Mega thing...

The DoJ did this takedown without SOPA or PIPA.... To me, this seems to indicate they don't think they even need those bills in order to enforce piracy. Why again is Congress trying to get these through?

Well, SOPA/PIPA would let the copyright holders request this directly, instead of having to move through the DoJ. It'd remove a whole lot of red tape for them.

@Panonadin Any chance for a reply to my post?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:42 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:If piracy is illegal in France and you live in France but you steal content from the US and host it in the US and piracy is also illegal in the US is France going to hunt you down? As far as I know, no, they aren't.

Hosting something in the US means (as I understand it) that I own something in the US that I am using to break US laws. I have no grasp of the intricacies (or basics for that matter) of international law so I don't know if you'd get extradited from France for that but it does make it a crime committed in the US.

If, however, I were a French citizen living in Belgium who obtained a DVD in the Netherlands and shared it with people on my Russian website hosted on Chinese servers... well, some subset of these countries have some jurisdiction over my actions that I don't quite understand. In this situation the US has no jurisdiction over my actions and I couldn't have broken any laws because I was in no sense 'in' the US. Basically 'the internet' is not a place and it definitely isn't under US jurisdiction.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:43 pm UTC

The US, on the other hand, says otherwise. They built the internet, they control the DNS, so the net belongs to THEM.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:45 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:The golf club analogy is so far out there I'm not even going to respond to it other than to point that out. I can't even take it seriously.

I'll simplify. If you sell me a tool, any tool, is it up to you to make sure I don't break the law with it?

What if you just let me borrow it? Are you personally responsible for everything I do with your tool?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:48 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:
Ghostbear wrote:One argument could be that the host nation is protecting it's interests/citizens. That's operating on the assumption that the offender would continue to commit crimes due to the fact that the other nation wouldn't prosecute the offender.

The whole point is that they aren't committing crimes! If they can't be bothered to make something illegal themselves, then they probably aren't too concerned with people doing it- either they feel it should be legal, or that it should be illegal but they couldn't plausibly police the crime, or that it might not be good for them but doesn't cause enough harm to care about. Regardless, it's not a crime, so how is it in their interest to ship people off for not breaking their laws?


I wasn't making an argument for my statement, I was simply saying that is one way it could be argued. I agree with you on your point here. Extending your laws outside of your own jurisdiction is beyond being ok.



Ghostbear wrote:
I'd wager that more than 10% of the content passed through bittorent is illegal- should they be responsible for that? The web site was just a tool- they followed the law in taking down it's illegal uses as they were required to. What more would you ask of them? Should anything with too high of an illegal use rate be made illegal itself?


That's where I think we are splitting off. I am not/was not aware of any evidence that they took any steps to remove infrining content.
Last edited by Panonadin on Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:57 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:56 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Panonadin wrote:If piracy is illegal in France and you live in France but you steal content from the US and host it in the US and piracy is also illegal in the US is France going to hunt you down? As far as I know, no, they aren't.

Hosting something in the US means (as I understand it) that I own something in the US that I am using to break US laws. I have no grasp of the intricacies (or basics for that matter) of international law so I don't know if you'd get extradited from France for that but it does make it a crime committed in the US.

If, however, I were a French citizen living in Belgium who obtained a DVD in the Netherlands and shared it with people on my Russian website hosted on Chinese servers... well, some subset of these countries have some jurisdiction over my actions that I don't quite understand. In this situation the US has no jurisdiction over my actions and I couldn't have broken any laws because I was in no sense 'in' the US. Basically 'the internet' is not a place and it definitely isn't under US jurisdiction.


But they did host it in the US and the content (again assuming but at least some of it) did belong to the "US" or companies based in the US.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Griffin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:59 pm UTC

Panodin,

It is illegal, in China, to post critiques of the communist party.

If someone in America posts those critiques, on the internet, where a chinese person could read them, should we extradite them to China for prosecution? Should China be allowed to stop the entire world from using their site? What if it ended up on a Chinese server? Say, a person was using the social networking site based in china, and said they disliked the Communist party to the chinese friends they hang out with there. Should we extradite them?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Ghostbear » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:00 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:I agree with you on your point here. Extending your laws outside of your own jurisdiction is beyond ok.

And that's what's happening here, which is why people disagree with it.

Panonadin wrote:That's where I think we are splitting off. I am not/was not aware of any evidence that they took any steps to remove infrining content.

They complied with DMCA take down requests- the other thread on this has brought to light that their implementation for such was flawed, but if so, they should have been instructed that their compliance was insufficient and told to fix it. Not unilaterally taken off the net.

Panonadin wrote:But they did host it in the US and the content (again assuming but at least some of it) did belong to the "US" or companies based in the US.

I think here there's another conversational split- taking down the servers (after due process!) located within the US that broke US laws is acceptable. Extraditing a foreign national to the US for breaking US laws when that person was not in the US or a US citizen, is not.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Belial » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:01 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:But they did host it in the US


Uhh...no? Their servers were overseas.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:07 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Panonadin wrote:But they did host it in the US


Uhh...no? Their servers were overseas.


Only because I absolutely SUCK at nested quotes and comments. I will just point you to the page before this one where the Washington post article is linked and the other link is spoilered. The ISP is in VA? The datacenters were in Washington, Canada, and I think some place overseas.

I'm not just making stuff up.

Griffin wrote:Panodin,

It is illegal, in China, to post critiques of the communist party.

If someone in America posts those critiques, on the internet, where a chinese person could read them, should we extradite them to China for prosecution? Should China be allowed to stop the entire world from using their site? What if it ended up on a Chinese server? Say, a person was using the social networking site based in china, and said they disliked the Communist party to the chinese friends they hang out with there. Should we extradite them?


Thank you for taking the time to explain this in a different way. Hrm.

No. I guess not. Would you be ok with China taking down the Database hosting your writings if they are located in China? If the domain was also registered with a Chinese company would you be ok with them seizing that? Leaving you free to post your writings all over the NET except in China.

Ghostbear wrote:
Panonadin wrote:That's where I think we are splitting off. I am not/was not aware of any evidence that they took any steps to remove infrining content.

They complied with DMCA take down requests- the other thread on this has brought to light that their implementation for such was flawed, but if so, they should have been instructed that their compliance was insufficient and told to fix it. Not unilaterally taken off the net.


I apologize for that oversight on my part I was not aware they were cooperating.

Ghostbear wrote:
Panonadin wrote:But they did host it in the US and the content (again assuming but at least some of it) did belong to the "US" or companies based in the US.

I think here there's another conversational split- taking down the servers (after due process!) located within the US that broke US laws is acceptable. Extraditing a foreign national to the US for breaking US laws when that person was not in the US or a US citizen, is not.


This is why I like conversation because I stand to change my own opinion and learn a little in the process. I ask this, if you do agree after due process that taking the servers and content based in the US offline is a reasonable response, is that where the response stops?

If I take content that belongs to you and live in Germany and host it on German servers for anyone to download would you say I was LEGALLY in the right?
Last edited by Panonadin on Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:26 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Belial » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:25 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:The datacenters were in Washington, Canada, and I think some place overseas.


In that case the US has the right to seize the US center only, as only content on those servers can be construed to violate US law
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Game_boy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:26 pm UTC

Regardless of legality or intent, it was a terrible business decision to have US servers. The US was the only country who were likely to go after them legally.
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Ghostbear » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:28 pm UTC

Panonadin wrote:I apologize for that oversight on my part I was not aware they were cooperating.

Easy to miss in the whole hubbub of the topic, no worries.

Panonadin wrote:This is why I like conversation because I stand to change my own opinion and learn a little in the process. I ask this, if you do agree after due process that taking the servers and content based in the US offline is a reasonable response, is that where the response stops?

I would say so, yes. If you place something in another country, you place it under their legal jurisdiction. Once that nation has done what they can to do objects (in this case servers and such) that break their laws, then they've done everything they should be empowered to do. Going beyond that is enforcing your laws on peoples that have had no say in those laws, who are not part of the social contract with your nation, and in all probability, have never even heard of your laws. Do you know what the Austrian laws regarding copyright are? Denmark? Zimbabwe? Japan? I only have the vaguest understanding of Canadian law, and the border with them is only about 4 hours (driving) away from where I live.

Panonadin wrote:If I take content that belongs to you and live in Germany and host it on German servers for anyone to download would you say I was LEGALLY in the right?

Yes, I would. If you visit the US, then you would probably have cause to worry. So long as you are not breaking the laws of where you live, or where you visit, or where you are a citizen of, then you should have absolutely zero worry about foreign laws. Should a German citizen be beholden to US copyright laws? If they're beholden to our copyright laws, should they be responsible for all US laws as well?
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Re: SOPA talk, yo.

Postby Panonadin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:29 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Panonadin wrote:The datacenters were in Washington, Canada, and I think some place overseas.


In that case the US has the right to seize the US center only, as only content on those servers can be construed to violate US law


^^
This is where I think I'm going to end up on the discussion.

However I cant make up my mind on whether or not the people in question should be in any legal trouble? Are they free to host US content all over the world as long as it isn't in the US and when they do slip up and host something here the owners of the material only recourse is to shut down the servers based in the US?
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