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Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
VectorZero wrote:Any adjective that truly conveys the magnitude of emotion felt.
Those people are indeed greatly bothered.
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
VectorZero wrote:The word I suggested was 'greatly'. I used 'indeed' as a joke, but forgot that it would be taken as you did.
To rephrase: "'Greatly' conveys depth of feeling without denoting veracity. 'The people are greatly bothered.'"
Now, one might argue that literally might be appropriately used where the subsequent verb has a commonly accepted alternate definition, as per explode, in which case I would argue therefore the definition of literal itself has not changed.
It's worse because it hasn't fully made that transition yet, at least not for everyone.Pfhorrest wrote:And isn't "literally" then simply the latest addition to that long list? Why is "he literally exploded" any worse than "he really blew his top", "he is truly a giant among men", etc?
Pfhorrest wrote:Now, one might argue that literally might be appropriately used where the subsequent verb has a commonly accepted alternate definition, as per explode, in which case I would argue therefore the definition of literal itself has not changed.
So if I was literally on the edge of my seat the whole time -- and I mean literally in the literal sense there -- and I said "I was literally on the edge of my seat the whole time", would you interpret that use of "literally" to be simply clarifying that I was not just metaphorically on the edge of my seat, or would you take it to be for emphasis?
Interesting reference. Thank you.goofy wrote:Why is literally the only word we're not allowed to use figuratively?
When I say "allowed" I mean allowed by certain usage mavens. It has been used figuratively since at least 1839.
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
VectorZero wrote:To allow "literally" to mean its antonym is to invite confusion.
goofy wrote:There are many words that mean their own opposite, for instance: ... condone, trim, ... fast.
Gear wrote:I'm not sure if it would be possible to constantly eat enough chocolate to maintain raptor toxicity without killing oneself.
"Trim" can mean adding or taking away around the edge of something, and "fast" can mean moving quickly or not moving at all.eSOANEM wrote:"trim" for allowing something to grow or "fast" for either slow or starting eating.
eSOANEM wrote:goofy wrote:There are many words that mean their own opposite, for instance: ... condone, trim, ... fast.
Huh? Your other examples I get, but I have never heard of "condone" being used for the act of declaring something wrong, "trim" for allowing something to grow or "fast" for either slow or starting eating.
Context will usually clarify most of those. "Cleave" (separate) vs "cleave to" (stick); "sanction" (verb) vs "sanction" (noun). "Dust [noun]" (remove fine particles) vs "Dust with [noun]" (add fine particles.) "I literally [verb]" when the meaning is "I figuratively [verb]" is imprecise.goofy wrote:VectorZero wrote:To allow "literally" to mean its antonym is to invite confusion.
I don't think so. There are many words that mean their own opposite, for instance: cleave, sanction, condone, trim, dust, fast. Having a word with two opposite meanings does not automatically mean that confusion will result.
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
VectorZero wrote:"I literally [verb]" when the meaning is "I figuratively [verb]" is imprecise.
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
A counter question. How would you clarify that you do wish a commonly-used metaphor to be taking as written, if 'literally' is to imply hyperbole?
1963 I. Murdoch Unicorn ii. viii. 85 He must have fallen literally at her feet and lain there gasping.
2006 N.Y. Rev. Bks. 2 Nov. 20/2 Bloody Dionysian murders‥in which a man, said to be a ‘rapist’, is literally torn into pieces.
VectorZero wrote:The issue is, such phrases as "a giant amongst men" and "on the edge of my seat" are accepted as metaphors. Hence, to convey that one is not speaking (at least in part) metaphorically one says they are "literally [metaphor]". To allow "literally" to mean its antonym is to invite confusion.
Any confusing use of the phrase could, by definition, be used either figuratively or literally. I gave examples of phrases that are used figuratively and used them in a literal way.goofy wrote:All of your examples seem to use "literally" in the non-figurative sense. I don't see any confusion. Anyway, when I said "genuine" I mean real life occurring examples. Is there any real evidence that figurative "literally" causes confusion?A counter question. How would you clarify that you do wish a commonly-used metaphor to be taking as written, if 'literally' is to imply hyperbole?
From the OED:1963 I. Murdoch Unicorn ii. viii. 85 He must have fallen literally at her feet and lain there gasping.
2006 N.Y. Rev. Bks. 2 Nov. 20/2 Bloody Dionysian murders‥in which a man, said to be a ‘rapist’, is literally torn into pieces.
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
VectorZero wrote:Any confusing use of the phrase could, by definition, be used either figuratively or literally. I gave examples of phrases that are used figuratively and used them in a literal way.
As to your counter examples, I don't see what designates them as literal, especially 'fall at your feet.' If 'literally' may mean 'figuratively' or 'metaphorically' or 'hyperbolically' or whatever other subtly distinct word that means 'not as written', how does one convey which meaning one intends?
VectorZero wrote:Pfhorrest: usage and time, I guess, much like gmalivuk implied earlier.Pfhorrest wrote:Both cases rob us of a way of saying "no, not metaphorically, but literally, really, truly, actually, exactly what I said, in fact", and that is a problem, but why do we take issue with one and not the other?
The issue is less that figurative "literally" is itself confusing (no one would ever confuse "I was so scared I literally died" as anything but hyperbole) as it dilutes the meaning of the word. It creates confusion when the literal "literally" is used. You keep saying I must infer from context. Why do I need to say anything more than "literally" when I literally mean literally? That's the primary meaning of the word! Its potential use as an intensifier means one must clarify that "literally" does not mean "figuratively". It's absurd.goofy wrote:But the context of your examples made the meaning clear. Anyway, again, your examples aren't evidence because they are contrived, they are not naturally occurring bits of language. I still haven't seen any relevant evidence that figurative "literally" causes confusion.VectorZero wrote:Any confusing use of the phrase could, by definition, be used either figuratively or literally. I gave examples of phrases that are used figuratively and used them in a literal way.Context.As to your counter examples, I don't see what designates them as literal, especially 'fall at your feet.' If 'literally' may mean 'figuratively' or 'metaphorically' or 'hyperbolically' or whatever other subtly distinct word that means 'not as written', how does one convey which meaning one intends?
The Iris Murdoch quote is from the OED entry "Used to indicate that the following word or phrase must be taken in its literal sense, usually to add emphasis". So I am trusting that it is meant non-figuratively. I don't have more context.
Because its 2012 and I use really, truly as emphasis myself?Pfhorrest wrote:VectorZero wrote:Pfhorrest: usage and time, I guess, much like gmalivuk implied earlier.Pfhorrest wrote:We don't usually trip up over this because we recognize "a giant among men" as a metaphor and "truly" as emphatic; but then the same is frequently true of misused "literally". Both cases rob us of a way of saying "no, not metaphorically, but literally, really, truly, actually, exactly what I said, in fact", and that is a problem, but why do we take issue with one and not the other?
I suppose I meant to ask: why should we take issue with one and not the other? The causes of the issue-taking are clear, I'm asking for a justification of the inconsistency.
Certainly.Iulus Cofield wrote:Does anyone else use "actually" to convey that an event happens/happened in a not at all figurative way?
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
VectorZero wrote:The issue is less that figurative "literally" is itself confusing (no one would ever confuse "I was so scared I literally died" as anything but hyperbole) as it dilutes the meaning of the word. It creates confusion when the literal "literally" is used. You keep saying I must infer from context. Why do I need to say anything more than "literally" when I literally mean literally? That's the primary meaning of the word! Its potential use as an intensifier means one must clarify that "literally" does not mean "figuratively". It's absurd.
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
Why is this a danger? Is it more dangerous for "literally" to change meaning than it was for all the other words that ever changed meaning?VectorZero wrote:it is in danger of losing its literal meaning
VectorZero wrote:Ok, perhaps another way to put it is that the word is becoming meaningless. If the only way to determine if 'literally' means 'literally' or 'figuratively' is to assess the context, then what value is there in using the word?
If the only way to determine if "you" is a singular subject, plural subject, singular object, or plural object is to assess the context, then what value is there in using the word? Likewise the only way to determine whether "her" is an object or a possessive, or whether "we" includes the listener or not.VectorZero wrote:Ok, perhaps another way to put it is that the word is becoming meaningless. If the only way to determine if 'literally' means 'literally' or 'figuratively' is to assess the context, then what value is there in using the word?
Can I interest you in advocating for the introduction of more pronouns to English? That would be super. Until then, best we've got, I'm afraid.gmalivuk wrote:If the only way to determine if "you" is a singular subject, plural subject, singular object, or plural object is to assess the context, then what value is there in using the word? Likewise the only way to determine whether "her" is an object or a possessive, or whether "we" includes the listener or not.VectorZero wrote:Ok, perhaps another way to put it is that the word is becoming meaningless. If the only way to determine if 'literally' means 'literally' or 'figuratively' is to assess the context, then what value is there in using the word?
That was from a quote, as referenced; I'm not the original author. The point was that which I made in my previous post: there is little value in using the word if its meaning is diluted.gmalivuk wrote:Why is this a danger? Is it more dangerous for "literally" to change meaning than it was for all the other words that ever changed meaning?VectorZero wrote:it is in danger of losing its literal meaning
(The Royal Flying Doctors Service is an outreach medical service for outback Australia.)
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
VectorZero wrote:
But 'literally', as an adverb, used to provide emphasis does not add content, especially when it is used to provide emphasis to a hyperbolic metaphor. The meaning of many sentences containing 'literally' would be literally unchanged if 'literally' was not used. There are plenty of other adverbs if you insist on using one, as mentioned earlier.
As for real life examples:(The Royal Flying Doctors Service is an outreach medical service for outback Australia.)
goofy wrote:As for real life examples:(The Royal Flying Doctors Service is an outreach medical service for outback Australia.)
So "literally" is here used in its non-figurative sense. Where is the confusion?
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.
VectorZero wrote:goofy wrote:
So "literally" is here used in its non-figurative sense. Where is the confusion?
Because he's not part of the flying doctors, and the actual meaning is that it's a bad pun on 'winger'.
gmalivuk wrote:No, I see the confusion there, because one can literally be a "flying doctor", as in part of the RFDS, yet that isn't what was meant in the excerpt.
goofy wrote:VectorZero wrote:goofy wrote:
So "literally" is here used in its non-figurative sense. Where is the confusion?
Because he's not part of the flying doctors, and the actual meaning is that it's a bad pun on 'winger'.
I don't know what a winger is, but I'm still not confused by this excerpt. But I guess your mileage may vary.
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