xkcd

by **Kag** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:24 pm UTC

Box Boy wrote:Yes, you do

No, you really, genuinely do not. You have a license to play the software that runs when you put the disc in the console. That's it. Whether data is actually on the disc or not doesn't matter at all.

include the DLC as part of a standard update later on and then put out the code

I'm sure this would bother people less, but large title updates aren't possible this generation because you can't assume people have hard drives.

by **Dark567** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:25 pm UTC

Box Boy wrote:.....they're making you pay for mini-games?
What the actual shit, Square?

Not only am I pissed about the paying for it. I am pissed because it completely kills any suspension of disbelief and roleplaying.

by **Box Boy** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:54 pm UTC

Kag wrote:No, you really, genuinely do not. You have a license to play the software that runs when you put the disc in the console. That's it. Whether data is actually on the disc or not doesn't matter at all.

No, I'm pretty sure when I purchase a game, I physically own the disc and everything on it.

True, I'm restricted in what I can actually do with it in some ways (and I have no problem with this at all, 9.9/10 times), like not being allowed to take and use resources from it for commercial purposes, or distributing them for free (such as ripping & torrenting OST's) and such, but I'm fairly certain it doesn't have the ability to decide what I can and cannot play on the disc.
What it does have the right to, however, is to prohibit me from modifying/examining the files in certain ways, one of which would be unlocking content I'd usually need to pay to download the key for - and that's exactly what I'm doing, unlocking content I already own, but cannot play yet.
It's like buying a house, and finding one door locked by the builders. I've paid for the door and everything on the other side, but what I'm being forced to then do is purchase the key needed to open it up while being prevented from making my own. Nothing 'new' is technically added to it, I've just been made to pay again to get what I already should own.

Of course, if I'm wrong and it actually is law that I'm not entitled to some files on the disc if the company decides they want to sell them to me later, then the problem isn't the unlock codes, it's the laws that allow them.

NEW PAGE EDIT TO THE MAX:

Dark567 wrote:Not only am I pissed about the paying for it. I am pissed because it completely kills any suspension of disbelief and roleplaying.

Actually, yeah, I hadn't considered that part. I can imagine that would be rather aggravating :/

by **Jorpho** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:35 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Box Boy wrote:.....they're making you pay for mini-games?
What the actual shit, Square?
Not only am I pissed about the paying for it. I am pissed because it completely kills any suspension of disbelief and roleplaying.

On the one hand, it is indeed a real shame that they don't even try to have some kind of fun with it – like, some DLC in which the Casino Maintenance Union is forced to return to work, or something. On the other hand, if they tried something like that, there would inevitably be some people claiming that there is some in-game way to unlock the DLC without having to pay for it.

by **Kag** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:33 am UTC

Box Boy wrote:everything on it.

Uh, no. You do not own anything on it. That's sort of what copyright is.

by **Shivahn** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:22 am UTC

Copyright is the right to copy information without restrictions.

Not being able to access something already present it... I'm not really sure, but I don't think it falls under "copyright." More something like license infringement, or some other legal term I just made up.

by **Xanthir** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:53 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Xanthir wrote:you *already own it*.

No, you don't.

I buy a disk. I own the disc. If the content is on the disc, that means I own the content.

The only thing I don't own is the unlock code required for the game to recognize the content.

EDIT: You have a mistaken understanding of what copyright means. I own the content on the disc. That is without question. Copyright means that I don't have unlimited rights to what I own.

The bullshit argument that I only buy a license to the disc is not legally valid. It's true that I would be violating *copyright* if someone shared their unlock code with me. Depending on what was involved in "hiding" the extra content, I may be violating the DMCA to unlock it without permission from the copyright owner. But that doesn't change the fact that I *do* own it.

by **mister k** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:06 pm UTC

There are differences between what the law is and what is right. Obviously squenix can sell us things pieced up as much as they like, but it is... a bit rich to sell us half a game if the other half is already finished, and is then available either as day one dlc or on the disk itself.

That said, I'm not sure thats actually the case here anyway...

by **Endless Mike** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:35 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Box Boy wrote:Yes, you do
include the DLC as part of a standard update later on and then put out the code

I'm sure this would bother people less, but large title updates aren't possible this generation because you can't assume people have hard drives.

Um, yeah they are. MS lifted that requirement awhile ago (and it was never an issue with PS3). I would assume the XBox will just tell you you can't download something if you don't have enough space. (Well, I think they significantly increased the size limit, at any rate. Burnout: Paradise had some pretty massive updates.)

by **Box Boy** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:29 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:The bullshit argument that I only buy a license to the disc is not legally valid. It's true that I would be violating *copyright* if someone shared their unlock code with me.

On the PS3 we get to let five separate systems download the same purchased content so long as they do it through one account, legally.

It's pretty fun when you have exactly four PS3 owning RL friends.

Kag wrote:Uh, no. You do not own anything on it. That's sort of what copyright is.

Ehhhh, no, it sorta isn't.
I do own the disc and it's contents, I just have to follow whatever (legal) restrictions are in place for my usage of it - none of which say that I don't own the entire disc and everything on it, as far as I know.

by **Dark567** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:37 pm UTC

Box Boy wrote:
Xanthir wrote:The bullshit argument that I only buy a license to the disc is not legally valid. It's true that I would be violating *copyright* if someone shared their unlock code with me.
On the PS3 we get to let five separate systems download the same purchased content so long as they do it through one account, legally.

Hmm... All 5 systems might need to belong to the same owner. That's the way Netflix works, you and your family can use the same account, but I think giving it to other households is breaking the agreement.

by **Box Boy** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:47 pm UTC

Actually, correction after a quick googling - as my group haven't done it in a couple months due to Christmas/exams and such filling our backlogs - it used to be five, but to limit the practice it's now two (for both PS3 and PSP, equalling four total shares).
They still haven't banned sharing to others though, and if you downloaded the content before the change then you can still share it five times, apparently.

Huh, that's sorta disappointing, but makes sense. I can't imagine they were making much money from it.

by **rigwarl** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:21 pm UTC

I finished FFXIII-2, regarding the "to be continued" at the end: (not a real spoiler, but just in case)

Spoiler:

Overall, I think the game suffered from only having 2 main characters, both of whom were pretty normal/average people. I enjoyed it though.

by **New User** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:21 am UTC

I haven't played it, but it sounds to me like the "to be continued" is like the ending to Back to the Future or the ending to the Super Mario Bros. movie. I also saw an anime, Mezzo DSA, with a similar ending. In all three cases, I took it to be a joke ending (even though they actually made sequels to Back to the Future, I remember hearing that it was meant to be a joke and a sequel wasn't originally planned. I don't know if that's true.) So to get to the point, might the ending be meant as humorous? The best thing I could find on TV Tropes is what they call And The Adventure Continues, although that doesn't mention that it's supposed to be funny (maybe it isn't always intentionally funny but that's always the way I took it).

by **Dark567** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:16 am UTC

So is anyone else playing it surprised by the astounding amount of vocal music? Like half the tracks have to have lyrics to them. I don't know of any other game like that(music games being exempt).

by **Shivahn** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:41 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:So is anyone else playing it surprised by the astounding amount of vocal music? Like half the tracks have to have lyrics to them. I don't know of any other game like that(music games being exempt).

Persona 4 had a fuckload of lyrics.

That's really all I can think of off the top of my head. Though it seemed like it had more lyrics than it actually did because the battle theme had lyrics.

by **Dark567** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:09 am UTC

And on that point I just heard this for the first time in the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEUOOgNzOv4

Lyrics:

Spoiler:

Really?? A heavy metal chocobo song? Somebody must have been on drugs.

by **rigwarl** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:21 pm UTC

I really like the other lyrical Chocobo song. It makes me happy.

by **carldavis** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:12 pm UTC

Dark Ragnarok wrote:I wonder how many people will say FFVII. I HIGHLY disagree with it being the best. But this isn't about which is better. It's just your personally favorite.

For me that one was FFIX because it was my first for RPGs. And i doubt i'll like any summon more than Ark. That guy is... utterly the best summon scene to watch.

I still have to play III and VI, which i hear are also very good as well.

So your favorite one? and why?

(I don't want to make this a poll because the Japanese versions differ from the English, and i do not know which ones go with which ones, so if someone helps me i can make a poll, but not until i can straighten that out.)

Out of the ones I've played, I gotta give it to FFX, with FFIX a very close second. It's pretty hard to pinpoint the exact reasons why, but I gotta say I really loved the battle system (classic turn-based at its finest) and To Zanarkand remains my favorite FF song.

Anyways, seeing all this FFXIII-2 talk reminds me that I should finish FFXIII sometime lol

by **Endless Mike** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:11 pm UTC

I started playing FFV yesterday. I forgot how much fun the Job system is.

by **Dark567** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:14 pm UTC

Square Enix today announce, a third(not versus) FF-XIII game, entitled "Lightning Returns", as an end to the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2012/09/01/li ... -announced

by **Box Boy** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:19 pm UTC

Well damn, that looks interesting. I may just go out and play XIII-2 now.

*Checks DLC*

Oh, hey, cool - not that expensive to get the story stuff. Anyone know if the accessories/weapons and coliseum battles are worth it/boring/OP? (not even interested in the costumes, though)

by **ConMan** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:10 pm UTC

I'm not a FF player (although I do like a couple of other Squenix releases), but I've played the demo for Theatrythm on the 3DS which is a rhythm game filled with FF music and the gameplay was ... not too bad, reasonably challenging, but I'm a little worried that there won't be enough variety in how the game plays for me. Has anyone played the full version? Would you recommend it to someone who hasn't played much FF, but doesn't mind the music?

by **Dark567** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:17 pm UTC

ConMan wrote:I'm not a FF player (although I do like a couple of other Squenix releases), but I've played the demo for Theatrythm on the 3DS which is a rhythm game filled with FF music and the gameplay was ... not too bad, reasonably challenging, but I'm a little worried that there won't be enough variety in how the game plays for me. Has anyone played the full version? Would you recommend it to someone who hasn't played much FF, but doesn't mind the music?

Not owning a 3DS, I haven't played it, but I wish they came out with a version for consoles because it sounds completely like something I would love.

Sorry, I can't actually help you though.

by **Menacing Spike** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:36 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:Square Enix today announce, a third(not versus) FF-XIII game, entitled "Lightning Returns", as an end to the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy.

Wait, wouldn't the demand for KH3 or such be way higher?

by **setzer777** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:57 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:Square Enix today announce, a third(not versus) FF-XIII game, entitled "Lightning Returns", as an end to the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2012/09/01/li ... -announced

Not sure how I feel about the doomsday clock. Unless it's a short game (or looping, like Majora's Mask), I hate the idea of possibly getting stuck in an unwinnable situation where the only option is starting a new game. Also, since I'm the kind of player who never uses Elixers because "I might need them later", I can't see myself spending irretrievable doomsday-time for special attacks.

I suppose both of these issues could be mitigated by giving players a way to turn back the clock. But that would detract from whatever dramatic tension it would create.

by **Dark567** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:09 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Not sure how I feel about the doomsday clock. Unless it's a short game (or looping, like Majora's Mask), I hate the idea of possibly getting stuck in an unwinnable situation where the only option is starting a new game. Also, since I'm the kind of player who never uses Elixers because "I might need them later", I can't see myself spending irretrievable doomsday-time for special attacks.

I suppose both of these issues could be mitigated by giving players a way to turn back the clock. But that would detract from whatever dramatic tension it would create.

Yeah, I suspect it will be something like Majora's Mask, Squenix has been trying to avoid unwinnable situations in its more recent games, although some older FF's had them(saving with one character with one health and no potions or phoenix downs and not able to get away without fighting a battle).

Menacing Spike wrote:
Dark567 wrote:Square Enix today announce, a third(not versus) FF-XIII game, entitled "Lightning Returns", as an end to the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy.

Wait, wouldn't the demand for KH3 or such be way higher?

I don't get Square Enix sometimes. Like they're a business, so you would think they would do something like that. Yet fans have basically said they would throw money for certain games(i.e. HD remakes of PS era FF's), yet they basically just respond "no, we've moved on to new innovative games". Something about it always wants me to applaud them for always looking toward the future. But then they do some stupid ass markting shit where they just decided to slap the name "Final Fantasy" on every fucking product. Which is a money grab.

I can never really decide what to think about them.

by **SlyReaper** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:16 pm UTC

So, I bought myself a PS3 the other day, and the first game I chose to play on it was FF7. You know, to really tax the hardware.

Am I a terrible person for not instantly falling in love with it? I mean, everyone told me it's the greatest game ever in the history of everything, and I'm... just not feeling it. The world that has been created is moderately interesting, but the story has not gripped me, the characters so far are flat and boring, and the visuals... holy crap, the visuals make my eyes bleed.

That said, I haven't gotten very far yet. I've blown up a power plant with Barret and co (because apparently it was draining some handwavium energy from the earth, which is bad for some reason), and gone back to the slum area where we all apparently live. Is it worth continuing, or is it a case of "if I don't like it yet, I'm never going to"?

Is there a better place in the FF series for a newcomer to start?

by **Dark567** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:30 pm UTC

Your still ...really... early. I would at get to the part where you leave the first city before decide to put it down. You honestly haven't even started the story yet.

That said, I don't think its aged well. The graphics were some of the first 3d graphics on the Playstation and you can tell. Also some of the mechanics of the gameplay are just stupid by today's standards. Why do I have to hold 'X' to run? I'm running all the time, should it be hold 'X' to walk?

As for which FF to start with, there are generally like 10 different answers. 7 seems to be the common one to tell people, but I usually would recommend 8 or 9 of the PS era, both have aged much better. If you want to go full on nostalgia 6 is good. 10 also generally is well regarded for new comers, but a lot of fans see it the beginning of the end of the traditional FFs.

by **Menacing Spike** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:34 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Is there a better place in the FF series for a newcomer to start?

Eh, 7 is incredibly overrated. It does get kinda better after you get out of the city, but eh.

Would suggest:

War of the Lions 1.3; Tactics game, is awesome. Complex plot. Kinda dark. Way better than the rest of the series.

If you like old-school plots (big bad demon king trying to take over the world etc), maybe IV (the remade one).

FFIX is the best turn-based FF imho.

If you want to hear "manufacted nethicite!?!" all day long, FFXII. Also has decent gameplay.

If you like a challenge, solo FFV.

by **SlyReaper** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:10 pm UTC

And how many hours of gameplay do I need to get through before I can leave the first city? Honestly I'm not even sure where I'm supposed to go now. Barret said something about blowing up another generator in Sector 5, but I have no idea how to get there. Still haven't figured out how to bring up an in game map if there is one.

I might give 10 a go if 7 doesn't get better. It's a PS2 game, so it should hopefully be considerably more advanced to take advantage of the better hardware.

Dark Souls Challenge · by **Mishrak** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:22 pm UTC

FF7 is special in people's hearts because it was rather legendary when it was first came out. As Dark mentioned, it didn't age well at all. It's not /that/ surprising if you don't fall in love with it straight away. However, anyone who played it when it first came out (for the most part) as I did ought to really love and appreciate it. It's still one of my favorite games to replay.

I'll briefly list some FF's in terms of order I think would be a good place to start.

FFX - A very nice intro to the series. Voice acting, great graphics, a pretty fun storyline, and some really cool mini games. It is getting a remake in high-def for the PS3 so you could wait for that if you wanted.
FF6 (3) - I stand by the fact that it has one of the deeper, more fun storylines than most of the other FF's. The characters are really fun and there's a fair bit of humor. Also has the best, most maniacal villain of any RPG to date. Has aged about as well as any of the classic SNES games. Make sure you get the GBA port.
FF Tactics: War of the Lions - The PSP / iOS port did this game justice. The storyline was very poorly translated on the PSX but this has been remedied. I go back and forth as having this as my favorite.
FF5 - Similar to FF6. Another really fun storyline. Can get this on the PS Network.
FF7 - Has aged poorly, but is still a great game once you get past some of the failings of the graphics. The Materia system is rather amazing to play with. If this game ever gets a remake, it'll probably bump up to #1 on my list.
FF1 - The original, and what an original it was. Very, very fun if you can get past some of the shortcomings. GBA port fixes several of them.
FF9 - Gameplay is somewhat fun, and it's a cool story with likeable characters. I really like the forging system in that game. However, there's a lot of broken and/or useless skills, and some of the mini games are sorely lacking in depth.

SlyReaper wrote:And how many hours of gameplay do I need to get through before I can leave the first city? Honestly I'm not even sure where I'm supposed to go now. Barret said something about blowing up another generator in Sector 5, but I have no idea how to get there. Still haven't figured out how to bring up an in game map if there is one.

I might give 10 a go if 7 doesn't get better. It's a PS2 game, so it should hopefully be considerably more advanced to take advantage of the better hardware.

There's no in-game map except on the overworld. Also, I think it's around about 3 or 4 hours of gameplay (if you know where you're going) before you're out on the open world. That's not /that/ uncommon. Don't quote me on that time, but there's a lot to do in Midgaard early on.

by **SlyReaper** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:18 pm UTC

So it turns out 10 isn't available in the PSN store. What the shit? Every other FF game seems to be in there.

Just to check, if I buy a physical copy, it will work on the PS3?

Dark Souls Challenge · by **Mishrak** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:31 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:So it turns out 10 isn't available in the PSN store. What the shit? Every other FF game seems to be in there.

Just to check, if I buy a physical copy, it will work on the PS3?

Not unless you have a backwards compatible PS3. There weren't a ton of those sold before they discontinued them iirc.

by **Jorpho** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:33 am UTC

At this point it should run on a PS2 emulator, should it not?

Dark Souls Challenge · by **Mishrak** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:52 pm UTC

That's correct, he should be able to, but I was refraining from mentioning that out of respect for Rule 7C. I like to be on ST's good side

.

by **mosc** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:19 pm UTC

FFX was the reason I spent so much stupid money on a 60 GB PS3 launch model. Basically has a full PS2 inside the damn thing.

Seriously though, a used PS2 can't be more than a few bucks at this point. If you're buying a physical copy might as well buy a system to play it on too.

by **New User** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:44 pm UTC

I don't have much else to say that hasn't already been said, except that if you really hate Final Fantasy 7 then you probably won't like the others much better. Twelve and Tactics (War of the Lions) both have different gameplay, but I personally hated twelve so I don't know what the story is like. Tactics has a terrific story, one of the best of any video game I think I've played. It's a good mixture of medieval political intrigue and evil sorcerers trying to take over the world. The plot is so complicated that I actually had trouble following along, but the better translation in the War of the Lions version supposedly helps. As for twelve, to me it seems like playing a MMORPG, only single player. Some people liked it, but I liked 10 much better. Also curious, do you like other JRPGs SlyReaper?

Dark Souls Challenge · by **Mishrak** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:59 pm UTC

I have yet to play more than 30 seconds of a FF after FFX-2 (bought the sequal just for grins, It's not that great of a game). The real time combat and forced emphasis on graphics and dialogue, I think, killed some of the innovation that was always so fun to participate in with the other FF's.

I re-played the original FF Tactics not too long ago to see if I could figure out the storyline. I found out it wasn't hard to follow. It's just simply not possible to follow it at all. The translation errors are gross and resemble an anime sub/dub debauchery (e.g. One Piece). The War of the Lions translation is a proper translation and makes a HUGE difference.

by **mosc** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:58 pm UTC

New User wrote:I don't have much else to say that hasn't already been said, except that if you really hate Final Fantasy 7 then you probably won't like the others much better.

I really don't like any of the PS1 FF games. Believe me I've played my share and for their time they were pretty impressive but they all aged extremely poorly. I think FFX is a much better starting point to get into them. The FFX battle system is both simple and deep, more so than any of the others. The voice acting and 3d graphics make it feel at least somewhat recent too. It's also not as stupid weird as 12 and 13 were. The SNES era games are probably my favorite, 6 (US 3) had probably the only good story the company ever wrote for FF and lots of memorable characters. The 2D 16-bit graphics also aged beautifully unlike the systems before and after.

If you get into the 16 bit era, make sure you check out chrono trigger as well. It's very FF-like except with a great story.

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