Diablo III

[Lucrece]

For starters, you're looking at an incredibly small slice of the beta, that is, the 13th level gear grind. Judging the came on that alone is, frankly, pretty short sighted. I put the game down as soon as I got my interested classes to max level in the beta, because I have no interest in the gear grind; I even pointed out how ludicrous such a notion is.

Diablo is about the gear, but complaining that there's a grind for Gold level stuff, at level 13, is a bit silly; if the game was released in full right now, it'd take most people less than 30m to replace everything they currently have equipped. That the game itself has facilitated the trading of items via an AH, and the crafting of items via account sharing of crafter upgrades mean that while yes, the gear grind is present, it's not the sole feature of the game.

And, like all games, fixating on a singular portion of it and deciding it's a deal breaker is your bag; claiming you hate WoW because you don't like the gear grind is forgetting there were 84 levels before you got to that point, with plenty of interesting stuff to see and do.

It wasn't that the item was lv13 that bothered me, rather that the metagame and how guilds/hierarchies establish will rotate around the idea of efficiently grinding for the best set, and that your gear will be scrutinized, making you a victim of the game's RNG or forcing you to grind to overcome the RNG.

The 84 levels that came before 85 comprised a minuscule amount of the game experience, as they pretty much were designed from the viewpoint of propping you up for lv85 play. I played WoW since it was in beta. I've seen it all. It held its charm for a while, but that is gone with more modern titles that don't reward/affect performance base on time spent ding tedious activities but rather actually rewarding achievement. Moreover, the 1-84 is basically a single player RPG experience with all the restrictions of a MMO and none of the strengths of a single player storytelling design and combat gameplay. The multiplayer part only comes into shape at endgame.

It may seem to you that judging the game by this level seems hasty, but I simply don't care to gamble $60 on good faith. I've been through countless betas; and if there is something I have learned from them, is that I should not buy the game if I'm not entirely sold by whatever beta/demo showed me.

At best I'll wait for the youtube playthroughs of high level content before I decide whether the game is worth my investment.

[Will]

Just got into the beta, enjoying it. Although I was immediately sad that the portable disenchanting item was removed, it is quite the chore to have to manually do it all back at town

That doesn't bother me so much. What kindof bothers me is that you can no longer disenchant non-magical items. They specifically said they wanted there to be tons of pointless drops, which annoyed me--I really liked that even the shittiest drop could be broken down for materials instead. It's not a dealbreaker, though.

[Izawwlgood]

Huh, I just logged in to check what you mean Will, but it seems all my characters have been deleted. That is... Odd?

So you can no longer break down items into scrap for crafting?

Again, Lucrece, if you don't find any enjoyment in the game itself, and the presence of gear means you'll dislike it all, then yes, don't pick up the game. If you're basing the decision to purchase on 'end game content walkthroughs', I wager you may be looking at the game for the wrong reasons.

Actually, dicking around a bit, some thoughts:
Changing the crafting to only apply to 'named' goods is fine in my mind, considering they took out the pages grind. They've streamlined the system.
Furthermore, they've removed Skill Altars, another sensible change. I feel like the third skill slot unlocks earlier as well now.

[Vaniver]

So, what do you do in the beta after killing the Skeleton King?

Wait for the full game to come out?

The 84 levels that came before 85 comprised a minuscule amount of the game experience, as they pretty much were designed from the viewpoint of propping you up for lv85 play.

I seem to remember getting 4-5 months of solid enjoyment out of WoW, which ended about the time I started doing 40-man raids (so I stopped playing). It didn't particularly feel like everything was just a prelude to raiding.

It may seem to you that judging the game by this level seems hasty, but I simply don't care to gamble $60 on good faith. I've been through countless betas; and if there is something I have learned from them, is that I should not buy the game if I'm not entirely sold by whatever beta/demo showed me.

This is wise, though.

[skeptical scientist]

It wasn't that the item was lv13 that bothered me, rather that the metagame and how guilds/hierarchies establish will rotate around the idea of efficiently grinding for the best set, and that your gear will be scrutinized, making you a victim of the game's RNG or forcing you to grind to overcome the RNG.

I think you're joining the wrong guilds. If you're concerned that the game won't be your cup of tea, that's fair. But if you're concerned that you will like doing X, but your guild will force you do Y which you dislike, you should just find a guild which does X.

[Intrigued]

Yeah it seems like your goals and your enjoyment contradict each other. You don't want to be forced into a grind to get the best everything, but you do want the best of everything. You're never "forced" to get all optimal gear, that's entirely a self-driven motive. You could play the game without any gear ever if you want to. It doesn't mean you'll ever beat it, but really, you don't NEED to have the best of everything. I do understand the drive to try to get better stuff, but if it's all easy to get and takes minimal time (no rng and no grind) then everyone would get it, be happy for a couple minutes, and then drop the game and move on. I do agree that it's in there to basically create artificially extended gameplay, but... it's a game, the whole thing is artificially induced. What are quests and larger areas for exploration, if not artificial game-extenders for certain types of players?

[Lucrece]

Yeah it seems like your goals and your enjoyment contradict each other. You don't want to be forced into a grind to get the best everything, but you do want the best of everything. You're never "forced" to get all optimal gear, that's entirely a self-driven motive. You could play the game without any gear ever if you want to. It doesn't mean you'll ever beat it, but really, you don't NEED to have the best of everything. I do understand the drive to try to get better stuff, but if it's all easy to get and takes minimal time (no rng and no grind) then everyone would get it, be happy for a couple minutes, and then drop the game and move on. I do agree that it's in there to basically create artificially extended gameplay, but... it's a game, the whole thing is artificially induced. What are quests and larger areas for exploration, if not artificial game-extenders for certain types of players?

But gear is ultimately tied to gameplay. If my crossbow ends up with +15 str, a stat that is OF NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER (not lesser benefit, which I don't mind so much, since it'd still be useful), the damage output gap is significant. And that matters when groups consider whether to take you through hard mode playthroughs and other competitive environments.

I think you're joining the wrong guilds. If you're concerned that the game won't be your cup of tea, that's fair. But if you're concerned that you will like doing X, but your guild will force you do Y which you dislike, you should just find a guild which does X.

Guilds are a gateway to what type of content you will be seeing. For the same reason that joining a casual guild in WoW was shooting yourself in the foot because odds were you were not going to enjoy an efficient group whose members had a skillset tailored for steady progress, I would seek competitive guilds in Diablo III to enjoy the greater challenges and progression rates. Problem being, that being in these guilds usually means you're expected to constantly stay in an optimal, competitive setup, and the way loot currently works is "Cross your fingers or get ready to run this thing over and over and over and over till your hair goes grey and the RNG gods finally hear your prayers."

Wait for the full game to come out?

When you call something a beta I figured there was more you were going to explore and post on the beta forums about.

I seem to remember getting 4-5 months of solid enjoyment out of WoW, which ended about the time I started doing 40-man raids (so I stopped playing). It didn't particularly feel like everything was just a prelude to raiding.

You leveled, as as you leveled not only were you eased into and practice your playstyle against increasingly difficult mobs, but you gained the abilities and tools such as crowd control/healing/tanking to perform your task in a 5man, which in turn was practice for Drakkisath with a group of 15, until you finally took the step to 40mans.

The leveling process at most was a month of 2-3 hour playsessions. If you had higher level friends, you could be 60 in a week as they chain ran you through high level dungeons. It's a tiny fraction of the hours you're expecting to pour on endgame and the resulting subs you will be paying through the course of it.

[Intrigued]

Yeah, not everyone plays like that. I played for months and months on characters without reaching max level. Of course when you say 2-3 Hr sessions I'm guessing you mean every day, which I would never do. Anyway, you clearly have a certain way you approach games so convincing you that other people do it differently doesn't really change anything.

Long story short, if your primary goal is to be "competitive" and in a top guild, the stuff were talking about doesn't really apply. If you want to play competitively but find the rng system too frustrating, then you're right, the game probably isn't for you.

[Izawwlgood]

Yeah, Lucrece, I also didn't play like you did, and had a fine time. I would suggest that all games have the possibility of being incredibly boring if you decide to undertake activities in them you don't enjoy for the wrong reasons.

If my crossbow ends up with +15 str, a stat that is OF NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVE

As an aside, I don't think I saw any, say, Wands with +str. But remember, in Diablo3, spells/abilities don't do damage as a function of strength or intelligence or whatnot, they do damage as a %'age of weapon damage, which is a separate stat altogether. This is probably to get around the possibility of useless magical items popping up in the random mix and matcher. While you can still find a, say, Wand of +Vitality, and feel that that is useless because your Mage isn't getting hit anyway, the gear system is simply designed better than it was in D2, where I suppose it was possible to get a Crossbow that provided +Int (Which, incidentally, in D2 wouldn't have been useless, because Amazons still used mana).

And that matters when groups consider whether to take you through hard mode playthroughs and other competitive environments.

That is simply not how D3 works. The concept of a guild in the game is pretty dumb; if someone won't take you on a walk through, find someone else. It isn't like WoW, where high level raiding for otherwise unattainable goods is predicated upon your ability to A ) already possess those unattainable goods and B ) admission into a group of highly selective people who routinely raid for those high level goods.
You are looking at the D3 beta, making a couple weak connections to WoW (there's gear! Some gear is better!) and deciding not to play the game because you aren't interested in raiding for all Golds. I suggest that is simply not where the emphasis of Diablo is all about.

The leveling process at most was a month of 2-3 hour playsessions.

Yes, this is because you aren't interested in 1-84 (anymore) beyond getting characters through it. If you want to power level because you've already experienced the content, then fine, but a statement like 'getting to 85 is at best a month or two of entertainment' is not universal for everyone.

Also, @Will: I think the updated crafting system is an improvement. You need gold to update your craftsman, and you need magic materials to craft what they produce. It strikes a nice balance now.

[Will]

Oh no, overall I think the crafting system is much better than it was. I was taking issue specifically with the design philosophy of "we want there to be lots and lots of useless drops."

[Lucrece]

Nope, I did a new run for the Cataclysm overhaul and one before it, because I wanted to read quest text given that I had skipped it before. It was fun, but it didn't take me more than two weeks.

It just got old after the 5th alt I leveled to 85 because the difference between the leveling in WoW and a single player RPG is that WoW by nature of sharing a backstory with everyone doesn't have personal customization and adaptation of the story. You see the story on an alliance toon. You see a slight alteration for horde side, and you're done and sick of leveling by then. It becomes a process by your 3rd alt. Alts I mostly rolled because the class balance system, particularly PvP, was utter shit (hello Dragonwrath, PvE trinkets, and now the daggers leading to rogues killing people within a Cheap Shot stun).

As an aside, I don't think I saw any, say, Wands with +str. But remember, in Diablo3, spells/abilities don't do damage as a function of strength or intelligence or whatnot, they do damage as a %'age of weapon damage, which is a separate stat altogether. This is probably to get around the possibility of useless magical items popping up in the random mix and matcher. While you can still find a, say, Wand of +Vitality, and feel that that is useless because your Mage isn't getting hit anyway, the gear system is simply designed better than it was in D2, where I suppose it was possible to get a Crossbow that provided +Int (Which, incidentally, in D2 wouldn't have been useless, because Amazons still used mana).

The description in the stat box says pretty clearly dexterity was my primary stat, and str was for warriors and monks. It might not be as significant as weapon damage, which is always the case, but it's still significan and a huge fucking troll when after running a dungeon 4 times to get enough gold fang drops to craft an item the game goes "LOLOLOLOL Imma put useless stats on your craft for shits and giggles."

It should have some controls. The stats on said gear should be restricted to stats that are beneficial to the class at the least. Strength was not beneficial and ultimately too extreme a loot model for me. If they're going to delay loot reward through material hunting, at least they can have the decency of not ruining your loot's itemization.

Vitality is still useful to your mage, because in any reasonable game difficulty you will be hit, otherwise what's the point of a HP bar? Strength, on the other hand, will NEVER be useful to my Demon Hunter, and putting that stat there just means I gotta farm mats all over again and hope the next time I craft this weapon the game doesn't dick me again with obsolete stat assignation.

That is simply not how D3 works. The concept of a guild in the game is pretty dumb; if someone won't take you on a walk through, find someone else. It isn't like WoW, where high level raiding for otherwise unattainable goods is predicated upon your ability to A ) already possess those unattainable goods and B ) admission into a group of highly selective people who routinely raid for those high level goods.
You are looking at the D3 beta, making a couple weak connections to WoW (there's gear! Some gear is better!) and deciding not to play the game because you aren't interested in raiding for all Golds. I suggest that is simply not where the emphasis of Diablo is all about.

Not just the raid, but the random, protracted grind aspect of getting good gear. I understand it's an issue of taste. My taste simply does not tolerate RNG playing such a big role on my experience.

---

I think I haven't clarified, because I'm getting various responses "this is not how everyone plays". That's fine -- I didn't say you had to play like me. But this is the way I like to play, and while you can find a way to get enjoyment from the game for you, I don't think it's fair to be irritated when I don't have the same expectations and decide to be on the fence for the game based on what I've seen.

[Izawwlgood]

Oh no, overall I think the crafting system is much better than it was. I was taking issue specifically with the design philosophy of "we want there to be lots and lots of useless drops."

Yeah, useless drops is a bad thing, but the point still stands that there's an AH to share and profit from things, and a crafting system that actually utilizes the junk items. So while I'd rather see less 'useless crap', it also means gold actually has a purpose, which is an improvement from D2.

It just got old after the 5th alt I leveled to 85 because the difference between the leveling in WoW and a single player RPG is that WoW by nature of sharing a backstory with everyone doesn't have personal customization and adaptation of the story.

Yes, I certainly agree. The grind TO 85 is only fun once or twice. That doesn't mean there isn't a ton to explore and do in the process, and if you aren't a power gamer about it, you can spend a good deal of time doing it.
And that said, I wager Diablo is vaguely similar; playing the game through looking at everything is only entertaining once or twice, and after that, you just want to grind your character up. Like WoW, the fun for a seasoned player is going to be in the different class mechanics and play styles. However, PvP aside, end game gear raiding simply isn't really a thing in the Diablo series the same way it is in WoW. You'll certainly find people who actively farm bosses for a given optimized bit of loot, but the barrier between being able to finish the game and even enjoy some of the end game content simply isn't the same as it is in WoW. Don't want to have a character in all Gold gear? You can still almost certainly, easily, finish the game.

The description in the stat box says pretty clearly dexterity was my primary stat, and str was for warriors and monks. It might not be as significant as weapon damage, which is always the case, but it's still significan and a huge fucking troll when after running a dungeon 4 times to get enough gold fang drops to craft an item the game goes "LOLOLOLOL Imma put useless stats on your craft for shits and giggles."

I'm not sure where you're finding that, or, perhaps that bit of info is out of date:
This pretty clearly shows(and I seem to recall in game) how Str/Agil/Wis/Int/Stamina or such aren't found in D3 anymore. Any bit of gear with +atk or +precision or +vitality or +defense is useful to any class. I view that as a good thing. It gets a bit sometimes when you're a mage holding a two handed scythe because it has higher attack than anything else you've come across, but meh.
Also, again, because there are no 'useless' random magical prefixes/suffixes, you may not get the bit of gear you wanted, but it won't be useless. This is why +str bows aren't a thing anymore, while +atk bows are, and are useful.

Not just the raid, but the random, protracted grind aspect of getting good gear. I understand it's an issue of taste. My taste simply does not tolerate RNG playing such a big role on my experience.

This isn't a requirement for the game though. You can still reach and participate in end game content without WoW raid level equivalent activities.

In fact, from the same wiki page:
"The difficulty will increase substantially on Nightmare, and the developers have talked about Hell as a much greater challenge, and Inferno even more so, though they are committed to allowing solo players to defeat everything in the game. Nothing will be so hard that a group is required to pass it, and there are no plans to include raid-style content. "

[Lucrece]

Useless stat on my bow.

[Intrigued]

It seems like everyone is mostly understanding what you're saying. The knee jerk reaction was because you only said you didn't like the idea of grinding for rng crap. People were just saying you really don't have to. Then you added you play games like this for the competitive side. I think for most that's just kind of confusing because these qualities (grinding for gear and doing stuff at top level) pretty much go hand in hand. It seems like you got tired of it in wow and are hoping for a new game that is completely innovative and reworks the way this is handled. Nothing wrong with that request but if you're playing something like diablo you have to understand there would be incredible backlash if they tried to rework the genre that hard. It's just not going to happen. Anyway, I wont lose any sleep either way.

Btw, looks like str gives you armor, so it's not actually useless, it just isn't optimal.

[Lucrece]

Most modern RPG's have shed the whole "grind randomly for the best loot until the stats don't suck." It's just a Blizzard formula by now. On the MMO front we've got Guild Wars 2 following its instanced co-op predecessor in the no grinding to be competitive part.

It's not a genre requirement for RPG's to introduce arbitrary busywork to enjoy optimal gameplay. Most competitive people shrug it off because competitive people do what needs to be done. Some of us get tired, though, and that's why you have competitive peoples leave MMO's and RPG's to go back to other genres that aren't defined by tedious timesink. Either way, Dragon Age didn't make you grind for loot. The most effective method of obtaining the best loot in Skyrim was Blacksmithing, and that part wasn't RNG ruled.

As a sidenote on not NEEDING to grind for crap, that's true. I could say the same if you were to make a choice between an avatar in highly unflattering hobo garbs or the nice attires you need to grind many hours for. It's not necessary, but a big point of role-playing games is aesthetic/narrative customization. And the fact is, they could simply tie the loot/attire to gameplay achievements (feats not involving the repetitive completion of busywork) instead of timesinks. There are ways to reward players besides "do this for XYZ times and hopefully you'll get lucky, but if not just grind some in-game currency to bypass RNG". I just prefer when a game rewards me because I got better at playing it or paid close attention and explored/interacted with the world instead of mindlessly driving by/performing a task -- not because I slogged through a task x times to have a % shot at y reward of z variant.

Some may say, "But why would I play the game after I did x feat and got the reward as opposed to chasing the carrot on a stick?" To which I'd say that if you're playing the game just to chase at the carrot, maybe you shouldn't be playing the game -- because it's a shitty game. Someone remarked that without the leveling system Skyrim lost its point. Excuse me? Skyrim wasn't just grind. You played Skyrim because you enjoyed the gameplay -- from the combat, to the exploration, to the effect you could have on characters, to the role-playing aspects of getting married and buying a goddamn house to decorate, to the fucking expansive story and myriad sidequests to tinker with that generally required different approaches. Grind/arbitrary delay of maximum potential gameplay is NOT critical to gameplay experience. It's a cheap illusion to feed into people's demand to remained hooked to a game that nobody should be hooked to; the demands being "I need something to take up my time, and your game doesn't fill up all of it, so do something about it and keep me busy!" when the idea is that if you're tired of a game, you should do other things instead of expecting developers to trick you away from realizing you're tired of the game.

[Izawwlgood]

Lucrece, you're right about str/agil/int/vit being brought back; they replaced Atk/Precision/Vit/etc with Str/Agil/Int. I'm not sure why; it's weighted by the fact that skills and abilities ONLY do damage as a function of base attack/weapon damage. So, in the case of a Bow with +str, it's not optimal, but it not only buffs armor, but also buffs damage, to some extent, just not as much as for barbs. Frankly, I'm a little surprised they swapped back. Because it's the beta, I'd be surprised if the stats don't switch to something else.

That said;

"grind randomly for the best loot until the stats don't suck."

Isn't a thing in Diablo.

Excuse me? Skyrim wasn't just grind. You played Skyrim because you enjoyed the gameplay

I honestly don't know what you're arguing here; if you don't like the gameplay, of any game, don't play it. Especially because;

Grind/arbitrary delay of maximum potential gameplay is NOT critical to gameplay experience.

Is something that absolutely still applies to Skyrim; you have to go do an arbitrary amount of quests or whatnot until you know all the Dragon Words or have the uber-badass gear. You're acting like grinding for gear or xp or feats is somehow unique to Blizzard games, and frankly, I couldn't disagree with you more.

[Lucrece]

I didn't say it was unique to Blizzard -- I said Blizzard constantly bends the knee to this audience mentality both because it's profitable in its Skinner Box design and because it's easier to implement as hollow content with the illusion of depth.

Strength only boosts damage for Barbarians. It's there in the tooltip. It does nothing for my Demon Hunter besides 1 point of armor per strength as opposed to dexterity's return of +% damage and dodge.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing here; if you don't like the gameplay, of any game, don't play it. Especially because;

Lucrece wrote:
Grind/arbitrary delay of maximum potential gameplay is NOT critical to gameplay experience.

Is something that absolutely still applies to Skyrim; you have to go do an arbitrary amount of quests or whatnot until you know all the Dragon Words or have the uber-badass gear. You're acting like grinding for gear or xp or feats is somehow unique to Blizzard games, and frankly, I couldn't disagree with you more.

I'm talking about people who say that Diablo's RNG loot design is necessary to maintain identity. No, it's not. It's a ludicrous idea, because that means that the game then can't distinguish itself by its gameplay -- which we know to not be true given what we've seen from runes, the good voicework and narrative, the beautiful aesthetics and superb skill design.

Most importantly, if you're going to go to quests as grind, then you and I are operating under completely different definitions. I do not need to repeat the same quest several times to move the story forward. Every quest has its narrative and a different interaction with the world. Needing to grind through quests to get words of power? Most of them are unlocked in dungeons/open world to begin with, and even then saying that because you need to move your character through the setting and narrative that such is somehow a grind. Might as well say that the whole arc before getting resolution with Anduin is a grind for beating the main storyline.

I didn't need any badass gear. I did the mage sidequest with the college, beat Morokei at lv15 out of a total 81 levels in the game, and with the Archmage robes at lv15 I did not need anything else to beat the game. In fact, there are many youtube videos showing playthroughs of people killing Dragon Priests at lv8 and doing a playthrough of the main storyline not exceeding lv30. That's the opposite of needing to twink out in order to take content on.

Also, unlike Diablo, if you just want to skip right ahead to a particular event or power, the developers allow you to via console commands in addition to now releasing the creation kit the 7th of this month -- which allows clients to continue creating content instead of being fed more grinds as the illusion of content. How many times have you seen Blizzard pursuing players who run private servers in order to circumvent the grind?

[Chen]

Strength only boosts damage for Barbarians. It's there in the tooltip. It does nothing for my Demon Hunter besides 1 point of armor per strength as opposed to dexterity's return of +% damage and dodge.

Isn't this nearly exactly the same as Vitality's use for other classes. Sure Str doesn't increase your damage, but it increases your armor which is beneficial to everyone. Its not a primary stat for demon hunters, but its not useless. Just like Dex is not useless for Barbarian's since it adds dodge %.

Yes the weapon is pretty un-optimized, but it certainly doesn't have a USELESS stat on it. It has a stat you don't put a lot of value on, but I'd imagine others could say something similar about an item with Vitality on it. I'm failing to see what the big issue here is.

As for the grind, I gotta say that is one of the draws a lot of people have to Diablo. They like being able to pick up the game, click monsters until they die and hope for some cool random drops. The random drop aspect is what keeps people playing the game. Frankly I have fun doing it and I know a lot of others do too. Its clearly not for everyone though. If its something you don't enjoy I'd imagine the game will not be for you since I'm pretty sure the whole game is just going to be the standard Diablo roll dice for gear thing.

[Intrigued]

It's a design decision that you don't like, that a lot of other people are perfectly happy with. No game can please every player. I, for one, like randomness in my loot. It keeps the game fresh and means I'm usually less likely to strive for "the best" items, since you can randomly find items that are really good and toss the junk. Identifying items is a constant source of fun for me in d2. I'm replaying it now and love finding a random drop and checking out what it is, hoping it might be an upgrade, moving on if it's not.

The point is, could diablo change this design decision? yes. Is it necessary to its identity? no. Is it a big part of the gameplay that other people like, even if you don't, and would they probably lose a ton of players if they didn't have it? yes. Long story short, when making a game, developers have to make a lot of tough design decisions, every one of which is bound to upset someone, but the point is to make a whole game that a lot of people will like. If the pieces that make up the whole of this game aren't worth it to you, no problem, you're obviously free to make the choice not to buy it (or to wait til the price comes down to the point you think it's worth it).

Re: the strength argument, you were saying strength is absolutely useless... it's not. It gives you armor. You're just saying it's absolutely useless because it's not optimal, but then you also said that you don't mind if it's not "optimal", you just don't want it to be absolutely useless. I wonder if there was a random property that was +dex, but ranged from +5-+100, would you complain that when you got a +5 it was useless?

[Izawwlgood]

I don't think the random loot thing in Diablo is really a big component of the game at all; your gear is basically in a state of flux until you decide you want to start grinding for optimal stuff. Your characters level is far more important than their gear, and again, because there's no end game raiding equivalent, grinding for gear in Diablo is a significantly smaller aspect of the game than it is in WoW. Comparing the presence of random loot and gear drop rates as an indication that the two games are headed down the same path is comparing Apples to Zebras.

[Chen]

I don't think the random loot thing in Diablo is really a big component of the game at all; your gear is basically in a state of flux until you decide you want to start grinding for optimal stuff. Your characters level is far more important than their gear, and again, because there's no end game raiding equivalent, grinding for gear in Diablo is a significantly smaller aspect of the game than it is in WoW. Comparing the presence of random loot and gear drop rates as an indication that the two games are headed down the same path is comparing Apples to Zebras.

Having played D2 for a LONG time I can tell you it was ALL about grinding for gear. Level was practically irrelevant. You killed tons and tons of monsters or the same boss over and over to get good drops. It was the whole game really. While now your abilities scale with level, gear is still a HUGE part of what makes you stronger. I'd imagine gear still makes a bigger difference than level does, overall. Apparently the new Inferno difficulty will require better gear than you'll have by the time you just unlock the mode (after Hell mode). Basically they'll expect you to have some decent set of Hell farmed gear before you can reasonably be expected to complete Inferno mode. Really its as endgame as they want to get in a Diablo game. This is another indication that gear is what matters. I mean there are stats like resists that you're going to need that can't come from levels anyways. Diablo has always been a loot gathering game. From what I've seen in the beta so far and what I've read, it doesn't look like they're changing that.

[Izawwlgood]

I disagree; we've been over this, not everyone plays the game the same way. I was perfectly entertained running through Nightmare and Hell, often with friends, and not farming bosses. I spent years playing D2 and maybe 3-4 hrs of that total was spent on public games trying for insane named gear. The element of loot grinding is certainly there, but I drew enormous enjoyment from the game completely outside that entire sphere of the game.

[SHISHKABOB]

I disagree; we've been over this, not everyone plays the game the same way. I was perfectly entertained running through Nightmare and Hell, often with friends, and not farming bosses. I spent years playing D2 and maybe 3-4 hrs of that total was spent on public games trying for insane named gear. The element of loot grinding is certainly there, but I drew enormous enjoyment from the game completely outside that entire sphere of the game.

Grinding for gear perhaps is not the point of D2, but the real point is that *gear makes the character* in D2. A well geared level 90 character will do massively better than a level 90 character with mediocre gear. And the only way to get better gear *consistently* is to grind for it.

[The Utilitarian]

So, having gone through the beta with all five classes I have to say I'm surprised in a couple of places. First and foremost I was amazed at how much fun I was having on he Barbarian. It seems like they've really nailed down the right amount of damage to give him to make up for his close combat limitations. In D2 melee classes often felt to me like they were slogging along behind the world annihilating sorcs but I think my Barb actually makes better time than the wizard.

I suppose it will remain to be seen how much things chance in the higher difficulties, but I'm seriously considering going Barbarian for the long haul, if for no other reason than they're the only class that actually USES melee weapons instead of just holding them and looking pretty. No matter how awesome your staff is as a monk 90% of the time it's just going to be sitting on your back while you fight.

[mfb]

Having played D2 for a LONG time I can tell you it was ALL about grinding for gear.

No, this is not really grinding for gear. (1 word = 1 link, and there are more things like these)

And I am quite sure that D3 will be similar in that way.
To get "perfect" gear, you have to spend a lot of time - that is good for players who want to optimize their gear. How do you implement that in the game? With random stats. An artisan which can craft the perfect item but needs materials from 100k item drops at once is a bad idea in that respect.
To play the game, you do not need perfect gear.
To have a challenge, you might even have to remove some equipment...

[Izawwlgood]

Grinding for gear perhaps is not the point of D2, but the real point is that *gear makes the character* in D2. A well geared level 90 character will do massively better than a level 90 character with mediocre gear. And the only way to get better gear *consistently* is to grind for it.

But perform WHAT exactly? Again, every activity you want to do in game can be accomplished without grinding for gear. Grinding for level on the other hand is what lets you, say, do a 4 man hell run.

suppose it will remain to be seen how much things chance in the higher difficulties, but I'm seriously considering going Barbarian for the long haul, if for no other reason than they're the only class that actually USES melee weapons instead of just holding them and looking pretty. No matter how awesome your staff is as a monk 90% of the time it's just going to be sitting on your back while you fight.

I mean, the Mage gets that weapon enhancement!

Yeah. I think it's quite stupid that my Witch Doctor Haunts better with an Axe than with some kind of Sacrificial Ceremonial Dagger.

[Lucrece]

Sacrificial ceremonial axe ;3

[Chen]

But perform WHAT exactly? Again, every activity you want to do in game can be accomplished without grinding for gear. Grinding for level on the other hand is what lets you, say, do a 4 man hell run.

Maybe I'm forgetting a bit, but level didn't have such a huge impact on you when you were at the high end. The difference between an 85 and a 90 wasn't that big. But the difference between an 90 in good gear and a 90 in crappy gear was night and day. The stat bonuses per level were miniscule and you could get far more +skills with gear than the 1 point you get per level. Early on it mattered a lot since you could only get to some skills via level but once you hit 40 and could get all the skills you wanted it started being less important. Even with the synergies, those extra couple of points didn't increase killing power nearly as much as gear.

Now I will agree, that grinding for gear wasn't ALL there was to do. As SHISHKABOB wrote though, gear was certainly what made you more or less powerful, moreso than levels I'd say.

[Izawwlgood]

My point is more that nothing in the game is really barred to you if you don't grind for gear, which is in stark contrast to WoW. While Diablo games are certainly very gear dependent, if you make a run through the game, the gear you have will likely be sufficient to start you into Nightmare. If you finish in Nightmare, the gear you acquired will likely be sufficient to start you in Hell.

Because Nightmare, Hell, and in D3, Inferno, modes are simply the game again, but harder, I'm not really convinced that gear grinding, while fun for some, is an integral part of the game process itself. There'll be plenty of people who get a character to lvl 40-60 and finish the game, and are simply done with that character. Compared, again, to WoW, where upon reaching the level cap, the game 'begins' for most; it's simply a different focus.

[The Utilitarian]

I mean, the Mage gets that weapon enhancement!

Yeah. I think it's quite stupid that my Witch Doctor Haunts better with an Axe than with some kind of Sacrificial Ceremonial Dagger.

You know, to be honest, it's not even the casters with melee weapons that bothers me (though it is a little silly that the witch doctor specific stuff is one handed when their spells benefit the most from 2h weapons) it's the monk in specific. There isn't really any way to make my disintegrate spell use my 2h axe in its animation, it's a spell. Yet, when I attack, physically, with my monk it just seems ridiculous to be holding his pair of maces, run forward, PUT THEM AWAY, hit the enemy with his bare hands, and then get the maces out again. You might argue that I'm not using monk weapons, so I can't expect them to have animations handy for them, but even if you use the MONK SPECIFIC 2h staff you're still putting it away and hitting them with your hands.

Really the monk ends up feeling like a point blank spellcaster than an actual melee class. It seems like only the Barbarian actually uses weapons in this game (or the demon hunter, I suppose, but even then you could easily make a grenades/knives DH that never actually shot anyone)

[Will]

Yeah, that drives me crazy. I crafted a nice shiny staff for my Monk, which literally never leaves her back. Why does the monk have weapons to begin with? It is the dumbest thing ever.

[Lucrece]

Heh, welcome to the life of casters who work 1245352 hours for a staff and yet it never leaves their back ;p. I really think upcoming games should have weapons factored into animations. But developers/programmers/animators are laaaaazy.

In Guild Wars 2 it's a bit of a mixed back. You do use daggers/scepter/axe as a caster for those weaponset animations, but when it comes to the staff the character just takes it out and shoots the spell with the other hand, only really using the staff when doing an aoe ground strike attack or mark like the necromancer. Although at least with the necromancer staff once you enter combat and shoot spells your staff developes a shadowy scythe blade.

[Chen]

Hmm I'm not certain but I thought that there was a forum post on the Blizz forums which mentioned the monk animations still not being complete yet. Its possible that was what they were going to do and have since changed their minds, but here's hoping that's not the case.

[Obby]

My point is more that nothing in the game is really barred to you if you don't grind for gear, which is in stark contrast to WoW. While Diablo games are certainly very gear dependent, if you make a run through the game, the gear you have will likely be sufficient to start you into Nightmare. If you finish in Nightmare, the gear you acquired will likely be sufficient to start you in Hell.

Because Nightmare, Hell, and in D3, Inferno, modes are simply the game again, but harder, I'm not really convinced that gear grinding, while fun for some, is an integral part of the game process itself. There'll be plenty of people who get a character to lvl 40-60 and finish the game, and are simply done with that character. Compared, again, to WoW, where upon reaching the level cap, the game 'begins' for most; it's simply a different focus.

While all that's true, that's really only half of what D2 was (and probably only half what D3 will be). There was a very large and active PvP community in D2, and competing in that community with random drops you found while leveling very rarely worked out too well. People spent months gathering gear, trading, and farming bosses to get their stats and their gear perfect for high-level competition. Sure, you can enter the game and hostile everyone, but the fact is that you'll never kill anyone who's spent some time gathering gear, even if you out-level them.

Is that how it should be in D3? I'm sure some people would say "absolutely". Personally, gathering gear and then going into PvP matches was why I played D2, so I'll be a little disappointed if D3 isn't at least similar.

[Izawwlgood]

Right, but even with an actual factual in game Arena not withstanding, Blizzard is on record saying the focus of the game is the PvE, and that the game itself is designed to NOT require multiple people in 'raid like scenarios' to complete. Believe me, I'm right there with you in delighting in better gear to do more with more people, but the game is designed to not require A ) more people and B ) bestestestest of the bestestest gear.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Arena play had an option or category that included standardized character gear selection. Kind of a 'Do you want to be fleet of foot or mighty of ability/cast' type choice.

[Lucrece]

Or, they can cut that shit and automatically suit up anyone who goes into PvP mode with a range of available competitive sets with room for customization in playstyle but accessible to anyone who wants to join instead of forcing them to grind for a month or two. That bullshit just kills gate of entry for newcomers and keeps the game stale by cultivating a hermetic pvp community made up of those who made it first in the race and now have a considerable advantage that lets them farm late-comers/people with less time to grind.

[Izawwlgood]

Or, they can cut that shit and automatically suit up anyone who goes into PvP mode with a range of available competitive sets with room for customization in playstyle but accessible to anyone who wants to join instead of forcing them to grind for a month or two. That bullshit just kills gate of entry for newcomers and keeps the game stale by cultivating a hermetic pvp community made up of those who made it first in the race and now have a considerable advantage that lets them farm late-comers/people with less time to grind.

That's exactly what I meant. Similar to BLC, your 'gear' options boil down to a small degree of customization, nothing more.

[The Utilitarian]

Hmm I'm not certain but I thought that there was a forum post on the Blizz forums which mentioned the monk animations still not being complete yet. Its possible that was what they were going to do and have since changed their minds, but here's hoping that's not the case.

Good point, it is still a beta after all. Perhaps staff or misc weapon based animations are yet to come.

It doesn't bother me so much with casters. Yes it would be nice if I shot my fireball out of my staff instead of holding it, but ultimately I can still envision it providing me with some kind of power to channel through my hands into my magic, since I'm still creating the spell.

I have a harder time envisioning how my monk does more damage with his broadsword at his hip.

[Izawwlgood]

Magic broadsword, imparts +1 sharpness to fists.

[skeptical scientist]

Or, they can cut that shit and automatically suit up anyone who goes into PvP mode with a range of available competitive sets with room for customization in playstyle but accessible to anyone who wants to join instead of forcing them to grind for a month or two. That bullshit just kills gate of entry for newcomers and keeps the game stale by cultivating a hermetic pvp community made up of those who made it first in the race and now have a considerable advantage that lets them farm late-comers/people with less time to grind.

But then how are they supposed to rake in money from the in-game auction house?

(The same goes for all your complaints about RNG-based loot.)