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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:06 pm UTC

Fedechiar wrote:(I really liked the approach of the first books - very little fantasy, a truckload of war and intrigue)

I found Feast for Crows almost unreadable due to the high volume of war and intrigue, and near lack of fantasy. The politics are good; continuing to add characters and plots and places and plots and people and schemes and people and plots and plots and plotsplotsplotsplots is boring reading in my opinion.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Jave D » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:29 pm UTC

Fedechiar wrote:
Jave D wrote:Also, I just really want to know who the hell the Others are and my concern is that they will be unexplained just so that they're more mysterious.


I have a diametrally opposite concern...I'm really afraid that he's going to work himself in a corner with the next book and will have to resort to some magical mumbo-jumbo to explain them (I really liked the approach of the first books - very little fantasy, a truckload of war and intrigue)


Well I can't see the Others having any other explanation than magic.

Unless they're alien invaders..
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Fedechiar » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:01 pm UTC

Jave D wrote:
Fedechiar wrote:
Jave D wrote:Also, I just really want to know who the hell the Others are and my concern is that they will be unexplained just so that they're more mysterious.


I have a diametrally opposite concern...I'm really afraid that he's going to work himself in a corner with the next book and will have to resort to some magical mumbo-jumbo to explain them (I really liked the approach of the first books - very little fantasy, a truckload of war and intrigue)


Well I can't see the Others having any other explanation than magic.

Unless they're alien invaders..


Of course, but the actual magic involved may vary (giving the Others powers they didn't have in the books up until now, giving them very specific vulnerabilities to certain objects or people smells a lot like "Fantasy Evil Boss Creation 101"). My fear is that he's going to make the Others too powerful to defeat, then solve the whole plotline with a deus ex machina

@lzawwlgood: that's a matter of taste - I'm more into sci-fi than high fantasy, so I'm probably biased against magic :)
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Jave D » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:13 pm UTC

I don't think you have to worry about the Others being made too powerful to defeat. So far,

Spoiler:
The main problem throughout the series in fighting the Others has been just that human civilization is too busy fighting itself. That will change when the war(s) end with a clear victor who can concentrate against the threat to humanity without worrying about the Iron Throne and rebels too much etc. It may be true that a deus ex machina is what does this uniting, but I think it unlikely. And the Others we know are already vulnerable to dragonglass, and we also know that Dragonstone has a huge supply of dragonglass with which to make anti-Other weapons. The wights are similarly already defeatable by fire, and Dany has dragons which can not only breathe fire but fly over the wights with impunity. The wights can also be defeated by strength of arms, with difficulty (i.e. not being outnumbered and surrounded and taken by surprise, as Mormont's rangers were). All Dany has to do is be able to control her dragons and bring them over to Westeros, and either she has to be the recognized ruler of the armies [remaining] there (by conquest or politics) or at least aligned with them sufficiently. Once the Others start taking cities and castles and whatnot, or say overtake the Wall, they'll have proved themselves enough of a threat that uniting against the common foe will be a more plausible action for people to take. (Whereas up til now, they're not even seen as being real, or as at best just being a threat to the Night's Watch or the North.)

What I think is interesting is that Dany saw a vision (in the House of Dust I think?) of a tall king with a glowing sword and cold blue eyes. To me this hints that the Wall will get overrun, and that Stannis will become a Wight (or even an Other or somehow in league with them). And that naturally it'll fall to Dany to battle him. Dany and Stannis are likely to have to battle anyway, since Stannis is not likely to ally with her at all, and Stannis seems bound by his character defects (and the misguided/evilness of the Red Priestess with her Shadows and spells) to fall in line on the Others' team in the end.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:30 pm UTC

Fedechiar wrote:@lzawwlgood: that's a matter of taste - I'm more into sci-fi than high fantasy, so I'm probably biased against magic :)

At the risk of getting dragged into a protracted off topic discussion:
Why? Why is waving a wand to cast a spell any less entertaining than activating a medical probe? They're just different themes, different wall paper in the same house. Dune was in many ways a fantasy novel (prophecies), and Lord of the Rings had many elements common in science fiction (ancient races with superior technology/abilities).
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Fedechiar » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:31 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Fedechiar wrote:@lzawwlgood: that's a matter of taste - I'm more into sci-fi than high fantasy, so I'm probably biased against magic :)

At the risk of getting dragged into a protracted off topic discussion:
Why? Why is waving a wand to cast a spell any less entertaining than activating a medical probe? They're just different themes, different wall paper in the same house. Dune was in many ways a fantasy novel (prophecies), and Lord of the Rings had many elements common in science fiction (ancient races with superior technology/abilities).


I cannot stress enough that this is my personal taste and not a statement of value about the two genres, but fantasy seems to break my suspension of disbelief more than sci-fi, and even fantasy elements in soft science fiction seem to have that effect... I can't find a concious reason, as I said it's a bit of a blind spot of mine

@Jave D: your theory about Stannis is intriguing, but I could sense a little relaxing of the standards in Dance with Dragons - p.e. the "he's dead! Oh wait, I need him in the next chapter - plot device!" moments - an upscaling of the Others for the sake of suspense might lead to a standard cop-out
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Yakk » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:04 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:At the risk of getting dragged into a protracted off topic discussion:
Why? Why is waving a wand to cast a spell any less entertaining than activating a medical probe? They're just different themes, different wall paper in the same house. Dune was in many ways a fantasy novel (prophecies), and Lord of the Rings had many elements common in science fiction (ancient races with superior technology/abilities).
Do you understand the difference between hard and soft science fiction? Between science fantasy and science fiction?

There are "SF" books that match what you describe -- different wallpaper on the same house -- but there is a lot of science fiction that isn't elves with bumpy foreheads instead of long ears.

It is true that bookstores organize books by "elves" vs "spaceships", but that isn't the only difference on the type of content the two have.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:35 pm UTC

Jave D wrote:And knowing the way this series goes, I doubt the Iron Bank is going to be just some dry banking establishment... no doubt there will be some sort of dark secret or extra-nefarious persons involved there.


If I had to guess...

Spoiler:
I would expect that the Iron Bank is going to start hiring the Faceless Men en masse to try to put their preferred candidate on the throne. It would make a convenient excuse to send Arya back to Westeros.


Jave D wrote:Also, I just really want to know who the hell the Others are and my concern is that they will be unexplained just so that they're more mysterious.


Spoiler:
What actually bothers me most about the Others is that, unlike pretty much everybody else in the series, all evidence seems to suggest that they are evil for the sake of being evil. This makes them, in my mind, comparatively boring. I'm hoping that Bran's storyline will maybe give us some insight into the Others.


Jave D wrote:
Spoiler:
Once the Others start taking cities and castles and whatnot, or say overtake the Wall, they'll have proved themselves enough of a threat that uniting against the common foe will be a more plausible action for people to take. (Whereas up til now, they're not even seen as being real, or as at best just being a threat to the Night's Watch or the North.)



Spoiler:
I don't think it will be this easy to get the people to unite. The fog of war is an extremely important aspect in these books. Do you think the Lannisters or the Dornish in the South are really going to believe rumours from the North about undead armies invading the Wall. Remember what happened when the Night's Watch came to the Iron Throne in the first or second book with evidence of the Others--they were laughed out of court. I don't expect that anybody in the South is going to take the threat seriously until the Others are passed the Neck. Moreover, winter is going to shut down whatever lines of communication and supply lines that the armies have. Even a few feet of snow will be enough to completely immobilize any army that doesn't have a dragon to clear their path. Honestly, I think that the best that we can hope for in the series is a pyrrhic victory--the Others may eventually be driven back (or maybe not... maybe the Others will cease the North but be unable to progress further)--but the destruction brought by the war, famine, plague, etc. will probably leave not much of a kingdom left to rule--or kingdoms, possibly; at the end of the series, the Seven Kingdoms may well end up being three or four full nations.


Incidentally, does anyone honestly believe that the series will finish in two more books? Neither FotC and DotD were not particularly fast-paced books, and both added yet more threads to the story to keep track of. I could easily imagine either or both of the last two books becoming unwieldy and splitting into multiples again. The sheer number of POV characters might lead to this. To my count, there are about 20 characters who are still definitely living that have had POV chapters in the last two books.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby pseudoidiot » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:43 pm UTC

Sounds like it's time for GRRM to do some culling...
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:21 pm UTC

I think FoC and DoD (and probably the next few books) don't count towards the seven planned books. I keep forgetting where I read this but apparently Martin originally intended to skip 4-5 years after aSoS but decided not to and... you can really tell. I reread the series when the fifth book came out and I could really see how the first three have a sense of direction and move the story along with every chapter. the fourth and especially fifth by comparison just gave me feeling of floundering about and taking whole chapters to show something that seems completely inconsequential or unnecessary. I am afraid Martin decided to fill in the blanks of those 'missing' years of his plan but instead is finding it hard to get the characters where they need to be for everything to get back on track.

And this is hardly a spoiler but
Spoiler:
the Others have been a central part of the series since the beginning and I have very high expectations for when they finally start influencing events more significantly. The only situation in which I can imagine GRRM leaving them as a perfectly evil faceless enemy would be if he concentrates on the extremely shaky and mistrustful human alliance opposing them. Honestly, though, I expect some kind of millenia-spanning power play between the Others, the Children, and the different deities for which the whole series is only a single skirmish. Ok, maybe more like major/final battle.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby mosc » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:04 pm UTC

I wonder how much finality GRRM has in mind to begin with. I think there's a good chance the last few chapters of the series point things in a certain direction and then just end. The idea of him writing some great battle where all parts of the known world contribute to the greater good and fight off the oncoming evil just doesn't seen to fit. People keep trying to make the series follow a LOTR parallel and it's just not in keeping with the style of the books. Main characters Die, kingdoms fall, minor players have major impacts on the world, and evil may triumph over good. I don't think Bran's going to ride to the wall on shadowfax and say "I come to you at the turn of the tide". The Stark Kids seem unlikely to ever be in the same room at the same time again let alone form some kind of "fellowship" to defeat the "great evil". GRRM <> Tolken clone.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Adam H » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:58 pm UTC

I have complete faith that there will be exactly two more books. And that they will be coming much more quickly than the last two. I think that the stuff that happened in Feast of Crows and Dance with Dragons was going to originally be shown in flashbacks, but where DoD left off seems like exactly where GRRM would have planned to pick up the series. As in, the original plan was to have: (major spoilers)
Spoiler:
After the third book, pick up 5 years later with Cercei plunging the realm into chaos; Tyrion, Victarion, and the Dornish prince on wild goose chases over in slaver's bay; Aegon making his claim in Westeros; Sansa chilling with littlefinger; Jaime, Brienne, and Catelyn teaming up (or whatever is happening there); Arya as a plucky assassin in braavos; Bran as a seer; Lord Commander Jon about to be killed/resurrected/whatever; and Dany on her way to Westeros to conquer.

I mean, it really seems like the second half of the story is about to start as GRRM planned from the beginning.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby mosc » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:38 pm UTC

GRRM's several times created a world where things just "ARE". He doesn't explain because his characters don't view the things as out of place. Dragons? Sure. Others? Same thing. Tolken had a very similar style and it lead to the standardization of most of the fantasy nonsense that came since (elves, dwarfs, goblins, wizards, etc). I don't think the others need an origin story. It's a natural force in their universe.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby pseudoidiot » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:42 pm UTC

I think I remember reading something once where GRRM said he tried very hard to avoid using words like magic for that very reason.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby mercutio_stencil » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:02 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Jave D wrote:And knowing the way this series goes, I doubt the Iron Bank is going to be just some dry banking establishment... no doubt there will be some sort of dark secret or extra-nefarious persons involved there.


If I had to guess...

Spoiler:
I would expect that the Iron Bank is going to start hiring the Faceless Men en masse to try to put their preferred candidate on the throne. It would make a convenient excuse to send Arya back to Westeros.



Spoiler:
I have the feeling that Arya is being groomed (by GRRM) to be a rather important player later in the series. At least I can only assume, after the vast array of esoteric skills she's gathered, and how perfectly trope-able she is. I'm not entirely sure what his vision for her future is, but that seems a little mundane.


Also, I realized, if GRRM keeps putting books out at this rate, I'm liable to be reading my children the series before it's over.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:35 pm UTC

I think Stephen King's the Dark Tower, and Robert Jordan's The Wheel of time both end up spanning over 20 years from first to last books.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby johnie104 » Sun May 13, 2012 10:24 am UTC

Spoiler:
Ok, somebody help me out here.

I think it is clear that the sword that Stannis has isn't the real sword of legends, as it is often said that it lacks the heat that should accompany it.
However Beric Dondarrion does have a sword that is actually on fire and is created in a ritual by a red priest (Thoros). Shouldn't this mean that Beric is Azor Ahai reborn. If this is true then the fact that he is dead now is really bad for the north. And it also means that Zombie Catelyn is more evil then thought.

Also, another thought on the "The Dragon has three heads" prophecy: If we assume that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark and that Young Griff is actually Aegon Targaryen, then there are currently three living Targaryens. So that would mean that the three heads would be Dany, Jon and Aegon. Since Dany and Aegon are full-blood targaryens they could probably somehow ride the dragons. And I would assume that Jon would skinchange so that he can control the dragon. Thoughts on this?


I also found this article which gives an interesting interpretation on the prophecies concerning Daenarys.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 14, 2012 3:31 am UTC

johnie104 wrote:
Spoiler:
Ok, somebody help me out here.

I think it is clear that the sword that Stannis has isn't the real sword of legends, as it is often said that it lacks the heat that should accompany it.
However Beric Dondarrion does have a sword that is actually on fire and is created in a ritual by a red priest (Thoros). Shouldn't this mean that Beric is Azor Ahai reborn. If this is true then the fact that he is dead now is really bad for the north. And it also means that Zombie Catelyn is more evil then thought.


Spoiler:
I'd be... very surprised to find it was Beric. Yes, there is some evidence to suggest that he could be, but I think it is pretty thin. Honestly, I think we can probably rule him out mostly based on the fact that 1) he's currently dead and cannot be resurrected and 2) he is a minor character in the plot.

I'm a little surprised that your article below didn't mention Jon Snow as a natural favorite for Azor Azai reborn. The strongest evidence is probably given in Melisandre's POV in DwD, where she looks in the flames for Azor Azai, and instead of seeing Stannis, only sees Snow (note the capital). The scene around the death of Jon snow in DwD also fits the salt/fire/flaming star parts of the prophecy, although not necessarily in the most dramatic fashion. Since Jon will presumably be revived in book six, he pretty much hits all of the marks for Azor Azai except for waking dragons. But the prophecy says that Azor himself will wake the dragons, so Jon can do this after he is raised. Jon also has a prophecy where he fights the Others while wielding a burning red sword... If I were a betting man, I'd be putting money on Jon first, Dany second. Nobody else really fits the bill well enough.

There's also the related Prince who was Promised prophecy. It's possible that PwwP and AA could be the same person (as Mel believes) or different people. I would not personally suggest trusting the interpretations of anybody in-universe at this point. If it were both, I'd put money on Jon Snow again, but I could see it as being Jon and Dany, or possibly even Jon and someone else, and Dany is a massive red herring as far as the prophecies are concerned.

It's also possible (but unlikely) that no single person completes the prophecy, but rather multiple people. For example, the three-headed dragon prophecy could refer to the fact that AA and/or the PwwP are in fact composed of three different individuals who satisfy the requirements either separately or collectively.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Jave D » Mon May 14, 2012 4:21 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
Jon also has a prophecy where he fights the Others while wielding a burning red sword... If I were a betting man, I'd be putting money on Jon first, Dany second. Nobody else really fits the bill well enough.


Are you referring to
Spoiler:
when in the House of Dust, Dany has visions that foretell the future? Among them the Red Wedding. In that case I'd argue it's not Jon, because while it is about fighting the others with a burning sword, it's about a blue-eyed king who casts no shadow, which is fairly clearly about Stannis since his shadows are being used by Mel, he has the blue eyes of the Barratheons and he actually is a king. Unless of course something happens with Jon being resurrected by her, i.e., she takes his shadow, and maybe Stannis dies and Jon becomes king for some reason but even then I don't think he has blue eyes.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 14, 2012 4:54 pm UTC

Jave D wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
Jon also has a prophecy where he fights the Others while wielding a burning red sword... If I were a betting man, I'd be putting money on Jon first, Dany second. Nobody else really fits the bill well enough.


Are you referring to
Spoiler:
when in the House of Dust, Dany has visions that foretell the future? Among them the Red Wedding. In that case I'd argue it's not Jon, because while it is about fighting the others with a burning sword, it's about a blue-eyed king who casts no shadow, which is fairly clearly about Stannis since his shadows are being used by Mel, he has the blue eyes of the Barratheons and he actually is a king. Unless of course something happens with Jon being resurrected by her, i.e., she takes his shadow, and maybe Stannis dies and Jon becomes king for some reason but even then I don't think he has blue eyes.


Nope. It's dream that Jon has. Here's the text.

Spoiler:
Dance with Dragons page 769 wrote:Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.


Here's the Mel quote:

Dance with Dragons page 408 wrote:Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow...

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Adam H » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:05 pm UTC

From the GoT tv show thread:
johnie104 wrote:Book spoilers:
Spoiler:
On a seperate note, from the wikipedia page of the third season:
"According to Benioff, the third season will contain a particularly memorable scene from A Storm of Swords, the prospect of filming which was part of their motivation to adapt the novels for television in the first place."
Is it just me, or can this only be the Red Wedding?


Is that really the most memorable scene in Storm Of Swords? Honestly, I don't get the love. I'd be fine if they only showed it from Arya's perspective and then just had other characters reference it. It's not that it's a downer, I thought it was much less shocking than the end of Book 1. It lacks emotion; it's just an "oh crap" moment and then it's over.

Here are some better epic scenes from Book 3, IMO:
Spoiler:
-Oberyn Martell vs. Gregor Clegane
-Jaime getting his hand cut off and then saving Brienne from Vargo
-The revealing of Littlefinger as a diabolical mastermind
-Shae betraying Tyrion in court
-Tyrion killing Tywin and Shae
-Stannis saving the night watch
-Jon made Lord Commander
-Dany buying the unsullied and turning them against their former masters

Now that I write them out like that, I see that these will all probably happen in season 4, except the last one about Dany. So I'm excited for season 4, basically. :) Lots of crowning moments of awesomeness coming up.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:44 pm UTC

I don't think "love" is the right word. It's a powerful, gut-wrenching scene that comes mostly out of nowhere--a bunch of minor characters who haven't really had any important roles in the series completely change the tone and tenor of the rest of the books. While I don't disagree that many of the scenes that you name are epic and really great scenes in the book (book 3 is really just full of awesomeness), for most readers, it is the most memorable scene, not just of book 3, but of the entire series.

Remember too, that people tend to remember tragedy a lot more than they remember victory. Especially in fiction, where the good guys coming up on top against long odds is par for the course, it's not surprising that people are going to find scenes that completely defy their expectations and are tragic are going to have a much stronger association.

Spoiler:
For example, two of the scenes you mention: Stannis coming to rescue the Night's Watch and Jon Snow becoming Lord Commander, follow pretty much standard fantasy tropes. In the first, the good guys are outnumbered and on the brink of defeat when the calvary shows up to save the day. In the second, the maligned but legitimate heir outwits his more powerful opponents to claim his title. You could find plot arcs like these in any fantasy book.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Adam H » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:23 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I don't think "love" is the right word. It's a powerful, gut-wrenching scene that comes mostly out of nowhere--a bunch of minor characters who haven't really had any important roles in the series completely change the tone and tenor of the rest of the books. While I don't disagree that many of the scenes that you name are epic and really great scenes in the book (book 3 is really just full of awesomeness), for most readers, it is the most memorable scene, not just of book 3, but of the entire series.

Remember too, that people tend to remember tragedy a lot more than they remember victory. Especially in fiction, where the good guys coming up on top against long odds is par for the course, it's not surprising that people are going to find scenes that completely defy their expectations and are tragic are going to have a much stronger association.

Spoiler:
For example, two of the scenes you mention: Stannis coming to rescue the Night's Watch and Jon Snow becoming Lord Commander, follow pretty much standard fantasy tropes. In the first, the good guys are outnumbered and on the brink of defeat when the calvary shows up to save the day. In the second, the maligned but legitimate heir outwits his more powerful opponents to claim his title. You could find plot arcs like these in any fantasy book.

Spoiler:
I find it hard to believe that Ned's death isn't the penultimate "oh shit" moment for everyone.

By the red wedding, I already knew main characters could die off, and Robb was never a main character. Catelyn and Robb weren't especially likeable. The main thing I cared about was Arya's sudden and complete homelessness, actually. That was sad.


But anyways, I'll grant you that it's the "main event" in book 3. I just wouldn't have thought it's the sort of thing that gets directors/producers excited about filming.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby mosc » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:08 pm UTC

Cmon, the entire time people were flipping out about Ned Stark when that episode came out they were drooling with "If you think THAT'S bad...". They're going to milk it for all it's worth. If anything, they'll go too far and start to make people fearful of getting attached to anyone (which they probably should be already).
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:17 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
Spoiler:
I find it hard to believe that Ned's death isn't the penultimate "oh shit" moment for everyone.

By the red wedding, I already knew main characters could die off, and Robb was never a main character. Catelyn and Robb weren't especially likeable. The main thing I cared about was Arya's sudden and complete homelessness, actually. That was sad.


But anyways, I'll grant you that it's the "main event" in book 3. I just wouldn't have thought it's the sort of thing that gets directors/producers excited about filming.


Spoiler:
Well, penultimate means "next to last", so I guess you could say it was, with the Red Wedding being big one, but be that as it may.

I guess I'm kind of the opposite of you. Ned's death didn't really bother me all that much. By the time it happened in the book, there had been so much build up to it and so much pointing to it happening, I'd accepted it as inevitable, and never really considered it indicative that everyone is fair game. Though I didn't think of it at the time, a good analogy is Star Wars: Nobody is going to treat the story as "everyone can die" just because Obi-wan dies, even though he's a main character, because he's also the experienced mentor/father figure type, and these sorts of characters die all the time because they need to make way for the new guys to step up and take charge.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Jave D » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:21 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I don't think "love" is the right word. It's a powerful, gut-wrenching scene that comes mostly out of nowhere--a bunch of minor characters who haven't really had any important roles in the series completely change the tone and tenor of the rest of the books. While I don't disagree that many of the scenes that you name are epic and really great scenes in the book (book 3 is really just full of awesomeness), for most readers, it is the most memorable scene, not just of book 3, but of the entire series.


And as a chapter, it's just very well written, and left a particularly horrifying and visceral effect on me by the end. For me no other scene in the books has had nearly that kind of impact.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby retrominge » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:53 am UTC

Onto the 4th book now - loving the series so far.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Adacore » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:11 am UTC

DwD spoilers:
Spoiler:
So I just finished DwD, having started reading the series in March, and I agree that a lot of the material felt like it could easily have been cut and referred to as happening 'offstage', much as Robb's stuff was in the war of the five kings in the earlier books.

One thing I'm surprised hasn't been noted yet, that I felt was the biggest 'oh shit' of Dance with Dragons and Feast for Crows was the stuff with the maesters. That felt like proper grand overall plot stuff, unlike most of the petty squabbles in those books. It was mostly just hinted at, but there's the prologue of Feast for Crows being set about Oldtown, linked up with the Samwell stuff in oldtown, and a few explicit references to the maesters being the true rulers of the realm, with one in every castle seeing every letter all the lords write. There's the maester that tries to kills Victarion (maybe), Pycelle has been heavily involved with the meddling at Kings Landing, and the first thing Varys does on returning is kill Pycelle. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it feels to me like the maesters have been orchestrating a decades-long (maybe even centuries-long) conspiracy to try and rid this world of magic. Dany's basically screwed all their plans up a bit, though, with her dragons.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby ArgonV » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:26 pm UTC

I started reading the books, just finished book 3, but one thing is weird to me [book 2 spoilers, I guess]
Spoiler:
The Undying reveal Daenarys all sorts of prophecies. But why? They obviously want to keep them there, but she escapes. If they can see the future for her, they must've known. Then again, they could've been lying to appease them, but so far (book 3 end) some of them came true. So they apparently weren't lying either. Why tell her the truth if you know she'll escape?
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Adacore » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:58 am UTC

ArgonV wrote:I started reading the books, just finished book 3, but one thing is weird to me [book 2 spoilers, I guess]
Spoiler:
The Undying reveal Daenarys all sorts of prophecies. But why? They obviously want to keep them there, but she escapes. If they can see the future for her, they must've known. Then again, they could've been lying to appease them, but so far (book 3 end) some of them came true. So they apparently weren't lying either. Why tell her the truth if you know she'll escape?

Spoiler:
I had the impression the house of the undying was more a 'force of nature' type deal, than a deliberate choice to show her that stuff. I hadn't really considered that they might've chosen to do so - it doesn't make much sense.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Negated » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:13 pm UTC

I finally got my hand on ADoD from the library and flipped through it in a week. And, man, the book is thick and the pace is slow. I still admire GRRM's writing, his description of everything to the finest details, but the slow progress and lack of dramatic twists in the story makes it a harder read than the four previous books.

Spoiler:
The most obvious example is the Dany chapters. There is hardly any progress in Meereen. For almost the entire book we see Meereen suffering from economic hardship, harpies murdering in the dark, and enemies closing in. The progression is entirely predictable until Dany flies away on the back of Drogon. The last Dany chapter looks promising though. It hints that Dany will go back to "fire and blood" mode, instead of the "mother of freed slaves", which isn't quite what she should be.

Jon Snow chapters are more interesting. His days spent with the wildings have apparently opened his eyes. allowing him to accept the wildings as they are and make peace with them. It is unfortunate of him that the rest of the Night's Watch do not see the same, and his total disregard of their protests leads to the tragedy at the end. He is certainly not dead-dead though. Melisandre has good reasons to revive him, as Thoros did for Beric Dondarrion. And oh, Tormund and Val are awesome.

Arya chapters are again the best of the book. Too bad there are only two.

Cersei chapters are lol.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby Adam H » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:09 pm UTC

Negated wrote:I finally got my hand on ADoD from the library and flipped through it in a week. And, man, the book is thick and the pace is slow. I still admire GRRM's writing, his description of everything to the finest details, but the slow progress and lack of dramatic twists in the story makes it a harder read than the four previous books.

I thought 5 was vastly superior to 4.

I read ADoD thinking that nothing happening in Book 5 could have that much impact on the world, since Book 4 was pretty devoid of any interesting references to the North or Meereen and supposedly the two books take place at the same time. But then we got
Spoiler:
Aegon/Tyrion, Bran, Davos in the beginning, and crazy stuff at the end. So I was happy.

I've never liked the Danys chapters. She's a neat character, but she's so far removed from the rest o the world it's hard to care. I think that's partially why her moments of awesomeness are so awesome (dragons hatching, buying the unsullied... that's about it...), because they're rare.
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:25 pm UTC

Speculation about Penny/Tyrion in ADWD and beyond:

Spoiler:
Does anyone else think it somewhat likely that Penny and Tyrion are related? I've been trying to figure out where GRRM might be going with her, and this seems... at least somewhat plausible, although there's some issues with the theory, I'll admit upfront.

The argument is, essentially, that Penny and (possibly) Oppo are the legitimate children of Tyrion and Tysha's tragic wedding. How it happened would be as follows:

-Tysha becomes pregnant by Tyrion during the two weeks or so that they "played as husband and wife", before she's raped and sent away from Casterly Rock.
-Tysha uses the money to procure a ship and sail to Braavos or some other distant location. She learns that she is pregnant.
-Wherever she ends up, she meets and marries a man who is a dwarf, who becomes Penny's adopted father. Oppo is either a young child from a previous marriage (if he's older), or he's actually Penny's twin, since twins are known to run in the Lannister family. In that case, he's only older in the sense that he was technically born first of the twins. Both Penny and Oppo inherit dwarfism from their father's side.
-If Oppo is Tyrion's, it is possible that he was murdered because he, in fact, does bear some resemblance to his father beyond being a dwarf.
-Penny finds Tyrion compelling because he reminds her of her brother, which makes sense because Tyrion might resemble her brother both physically and have a similar personality.
-Unfortunately, we don't have much of a description of Penny, Oppo, or Tysha. It's a little surprising that we don't have more details about what Penny looks like considering how much time Tyrion spends with her. Tysha has dark hair, Penny has brown hair and brown eyes. Nothing nearly distinctive enough to be conclusive.

There are a few problems to be resolved for this to work:

-Tyrion believes that Penny is seventeen to nineteen. This figure would have to be off by three to five years, since Tyrion is apparently about age 28 at this point in the story, and he met Tysha when he was around fourteen, meaning Penny would have to be about fourteen. Now, getting someone's age wrong by a couple years is not impossible, especially if there is somewhat of a large age difference between the two people. Penny's dwarfism might make it difficult for Tyrion to be able to make a good guess anyway, since, despite being a dwarf, he doesn't have that much experience with other dwarfs. Personally, I feel that Penny's personality probably fits a fourteen year-old better than an eighteen year-old. Tyrion comments that she reminds him a lot of Sansa, who is quite a bit younger than how old he perceives Penny.
-The brother is the big problem. Oppo either has to be a twin, or a child from a previous marriage.
-It's hard to imagine Tysha wanting to be with another dwarf after what happened to her, although, perhaps if she had her dwarfish child/children first, she might have wanted a dwarfish father for them to avoid having to explain...


Any thoughts? Plausible? Crackpot?
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby johnie104 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:14 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Speculation about Penny/Tyrion in ADWD and beyond:

Spoiler:
Does anyone else think it somewhat likely that Penny and Tyrion are related? I've been trying to figure out where GRRM might be going with her, and this seems... at least somewhat plausible, although there's some issues with the theory, I'll admit upfront.

The argument is, essentially, that Penny and (possibly) Oppo are the legitimate children of Tyrion and Tysha's tragic wedding. How it happened would be as follows:

-Tysha becomes pregnant by Tyrion during the two weeks or so that they "played as husband and wife", before she's raped and sent away from Casterly Rock.
-Tysha uses the money to procure a ship and sail to Braavos or some other distant location. She learns that she is pregnant.
-Wherever she ends up, she meets and marries a man who is a dwarf, who becomes Penny's adopted father. Oppo is either a young child from a previous marriage (if he's older), or he's actually Penny's twin, since twins are known to run in the Lannister family. In that case, he's only older in the sense that he was technically born first of the twins. Both Penny and Oppo inherit dwarfism from their father's side.
-If Oppo is Tyrion's, it is possible that he was murdered because he, in fact, does bear some resemblance to his father beyond being a dwarf.
-Penny finds Tyrion compelling because he reminds her of her brother, which makes sense because Tyrion might resemble her brother both physically and have a similar personality.
-Unfortunately, we don't have much of a description of Penny, Oppo, or Tysha. It's a little surprising that we don't have more details about what Penny looks like considering how much time Tyrion spends with her. Tysha has dark hair, Penny has brown hair and brown eyes. Nothing nearly distinctive enough to be conclusive.

There are a few problems to be resolved for this to work:

-Tyrion believes that Penny is seventeen to nineteen. This figure would have to be off by three to five years, since Tyrion is apparently about age 28 at this point in the story, and he met Tysha when he was around fourteen, meaning Penny would have to be about fourteen. Now, getting someone's age wrong by a couple years is not impossible, especially if there is somewhat of a large age difference between the two people. Penny's dwarfism might make it difficult for Tyrion to be able to make a good guess anyway, since, despite being a dwarf, he doesn't have that much experience with other dwarfs. Personally, I feel that Penny's personality probably fits a fourteen year-old better than an eighteen year-old. Tyrion comments that she reminds him a lot of Sansa, who is quite a bit younger than how old he perceives Penny.
-The brother is the big problem. Oppo either has to be a twin, or a child from a previous marriage.
-It's hard to imagine Tysha wanting to be with another dwarf after what happened to her, although, perhaps if she had her dwarfish child/children first, she might have wanted a dwarfish father for them to avoid having to explain...


Any thoughts? Plausible? Crackpot?


Spoiler:
It's an interesting thought, but if that where true than it would be an amazing coincedence that Penny and Tyrion met. I mean, what are the changes of finding your lost child who is on the other side of the world while not actively looking for her. In other books this could happen, but it doesn't seem Martin's style to allow these coincedences (e.g. look at how long the Stark kids haven't seen each other)
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Re: Ice and Fire?

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:51 pm UTC

johnie104 wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Speculation about Penny/Tyrion in ADWD and beyond:

Spoiler:
Does anyone else think it somewhat likely that Penny and Tyrion are related? I've been trying to figure out where GRRM might be going with her, and this seems... at least somewhat plausible, although there's some issues with the theory, I'll admit upfront.

The argument is, essentially, that Penny and (possibly) Oppo are the legitimate children of Tyrion and Tysha's tragic wedding. How it happened would be as follows:

-Tysha becomes pregnant by Tyrion during the two weeks or so that they "played as husband and wife", before she's raped and sent away from Casterly Rock.
-Tysha uses the money to procure a ship and sail to Braavos or some other distant location. She learns that she is pregnant.
-Wherever she ends up, she meets and marries a man who is a dwarf, who becomes Penny's adopted father. Oppo is either a young child from a previous marriage (if he's older), or he's actually Penny's twin, since twins are known to run in the Lannister family. In that case, he's only older in the sense that he was technically born first of the twins. Both Penny and Oppo inherit dwarfism from their father's side.
-If Oppo is Tyrion's, it is possible that he was murdered because he, in fact, does bear some resemblance to his father beyond being a dwarf.
-Penny finds Tyrion compelling because he reminds her of her brother, which makes sense because Tyrion might resemble her brother both physically and have a similar personality.
-Unfortunately, we don't have much of a description of Penny, Oppo, or Tysha. It's a little surprising that we don't have more details about what Penny looks like considering how much time Tyrion spends with her. Tysha has dark hair, Penny has brown hair and brown eyes. Nothing nearly distinctive enough to be conclusive.

There are a few problems to be resolved for this to work:

-Tyrion believes that Penny is seventeen to nineteen. This figure would have to be off by three to five years, since Tyrion is apparently about age 28 at this point in the story, and he met Tysha when he was around fourteen, meaning Penny would have to be about fourteen. Now, getting someone's age wrong by a couple years is not impossible, especially if there is somewhat of a large age difference between the two people. Penny's dwarfism might make it difficult for Tyrion to be able to make a good guess anyway, since, despite being a dwarf, he doesn't have that much experience with other dwarfs. Personally, I feel that Penny's personality probably fits a fourteen year-old better than an eighteen year-old. Tyrion comments that she reminds him a lot of Sansa, who is quite a bit younger than how old he perceives Penny.
-The brother is the big problem. Oppo either has to be a twin, or a child from a previous marriage.
-It's hard to imagine Tysha wanting to be with another dwarf after what happened to her, although, perhaps if she had her dwarfish child/children first, she might have wanted a dwarfish father for them to avoid having to explain...


Any thoughts? Plausible? Crackpot?


Spoiler:
It's an interesting thought, but if that where true than it would be an amazing coincedence that Penny and Tyrion met. I mean, what are the changes of finding your lost child who is on the other side of the world while not actively looking for her. In other books this could happen, but it doesn't seem Martin's style to allow these coincedences (e.g. look at how long the Stark kids haven't seen each other)


Spoiler:
Well, it was already a pretty gigantic coincidence that Tyrion ran into Penny and Jorah as it is, although certainly the connection would make it an awful lot more egregious (unlike, say, Arya meeting Sam, since neither of them are aware of how they are connected and never find out), since it would be Tyrion meeting exactly the right person and exactly the right time... I'm trying to think if there's been anything in the series of a similar scale to what I'm proposing and nothing is immediately coming to mind.

I'm not sure if I believe Tyrion will ever encounter Tysha. That's part of the reason that I am partial to the idea of him maybe meeting one of her children--it provides an opportunity for a partial resolution to that plot line, but not in the way that it would probably work in conventional literature.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adam H » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:19 pm UTC

I'm hosting a game of mafia based on Game of Thrones, if anyone is interested. You can request to play as your favorite character! And there are oh so many to choose from, aren't there... :)

To signup you can PM me, click the link in my sig, or go to the mafia subforum and figure it out from there.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby mosc » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:29 pm UTC

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adam H » Mon May 20, 2013 9:44 pm UTC

The third season of Game of Thrones is almost over, and I'm starting to think about the fourth season (which will cover the second half of Storm of Swords). Posting this here because this doesn't concern non-book readers.

Stream of consciousness:
Spoiler:
Storylines in the book:
  • King's Landing: Joffrey is poisoned, Tyrion takes the blame, Jaime makes it to King's landing and is awesome, Oberyn!, Tyrion kills Tywin.
  • Jon leaves the wildlings, takes the lead in the battle vs the wildlings, and is made Lord Commander.
  • Sansa and Littlefinger go to the Eyrie, Littlefinger kills Lysa.
  • Arya kills the Tickler, leaves the Hound to die, and boards a ship to Braavos.
  • Davos convinces Stannis to aid the Night's Watch.
  • Bran helps Jon escape the wildlings, Sam helps Bran pass under the wall
  • Dany takes Meereen.

Everyone in King's Landing is getting their face time. Jon's getting his face time. Sansa and Littlefinger are getting their face time. But we are going to see a lot of thumb-twiddling from Arya, Davos, Bran, Sam, Dany, and Theon. What plot might be added to justify giving those actors star billing?

Arya: develop her relationship with the Hound, her warging ability, her journey to Braavos, her arrival at the House of Black and White.
Davos & Stannis: Perhaps Stannis will arrive at the wall relatively early in the season, and they'll add in some stuff from Book 5?
Bran: I am really curious how they're going to handle Bran's storyline for the rest of the series...
Dany: Dany/Daario/Jorah love triangle drama?
Theon: Possibly jump all the way to book 5 stuff and show Theon taking Moat Cailin from his sister's men? They'll likely have to show some Iron Island background stuff first.

My best guess on the chronology:
King's Landing
Joffrey and Margaery's wedding ~ episode 2
Sansa and Littlefinger sail to the Eyrie ~ episode 3
Jaime arrives in King's Landing ~ episode 4
Jaime asserts himself ~ episodes 5-7
Oberyn vs Clegane ~ episode 8
Jaime frees Tyrion ~ episode 9

The Wall
Jon leaves the wildlings ~ episode 2
Wildling vs Night's Watch round 1, Sam helps Bran cross under the wall ~ episodes 3-5
Jon imprisoned for being a traitor ~ episode 6
Massive battle, Stannis shows up ~ episode 7
Jon made Lord Commander ~ episode 9

Other stuff:
The Hound is wounded ~ episode 5
Arya sails to Braavos ~ episode 8

Sansa and Littlefinger arrive in the Eyrie ~ episode 5
Littlefinger marries Lysa ~ episode 6
Littlefinger kills Lysa ~ episode 10

Dany takes Meereen ~ episode 9


Just posting this to sort my thoughts, more or less.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adacore » Mon May 20, 2013 11:12 pm UTC

I think I'd still put that, appropriately spoilered, in the TV show thread, as it is almost entirely concerned with the show and doesn't interest book readers who don't watch the show at all. But anyway, my thoughts on likely adaption choices for season 4:
Spoiler:
I suspect we'll see Arya depart for Braavos significantly before the end of the season. She doesn't have much plot otherwise, and the Braavos stuff can easily be expanded to take as long as necessary - she gets a lot of material once she does get there.

The Davos/Stannis stuff seems like they're almost certainly going to get to the 'convince Stannis to sail North rather than sacrifice Gendry' bit by the end of season 3. I'd expect to get into the book 4/5 stuff for the north fairly quickly in season 4, just to sync up with that. That would solve a lot of the issues with people not having stuff to do. Certainly with Theon, they could just continue to fill in stuff that isn't in the books, especially after the red wedding when we know who his captor is.

I don't like Bran's storyline after book two anyway, and I'm not sure how that could be any better in the show, but I doubt it'll be much worse.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adam H » Tue May 21, 2013 4:14 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:I think I'd still put that, appropriately spoilered, in the TV show thread, as it is almost entirely concerned with the show and doesn't interest book readers who don't watch the show at all.

Eh, while it is intended for people that both watch and read, I think that people that only read still might find it interesting (I myself have only watched a few episodes this season), and people that only watch really really should not read it.

Spoiler:
I agree that using the book 4-5 plotlines for Arya and the folks on the Wall would improve next season. But the more stuff they use from books 4-5, the more seasons 5-6 are going to draaaaaaag. Arya and the Wall are the best parts of those books (IMO).

As for Bran, they might be able to put his stuff from book 5 in the next season. If they hook Bran up to the tree early, then they can start showing all the good stuff about the Baratheon rebellion that they've left out of the series so far. That would be cool.
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