[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Black Dynamite » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:04 am UTC

I hate The Hangover part 2. I especially hate the part of that movie when they're in the strip club with the transsexual women. I despise how everything about that section of the movie is portrayed. It really ticks me off thinking about how this is the way trans people are shown in popular media. I'm afraid that is how people will be socialized on the topic of trans people and issues. It really breaks my heart thinking that every teen who watches that movie will now have that hateful mindset when it comes to transgendered and transsexual people.

I hate how I had to watch that movie with my family. Now I'm even more afraid to come out to them.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:17 am UTC

lucrezaborgia wrote:me: "Regardless, that is a woman. Women aren't just what are between their legs."
friend: "thats a man baby, yeah."
me: "You are aware of transgender people right?"
friend: "Cant change chromosomes."
me: "You are aware that chromosomes don't just come in XX and XY?"

*headdesk*

I hate chromosome nazis. My reply to "Can't change chromosomes." would've been "So what?", possibly followed by a snide remark about the friend's psychic ability to read chromosomes. I don't think that introducing the topic of intersex people is a useful strategy here - someone who puts down trans people is unlikely to be sympathetic to the situations of intersex people.

Also, although I do believe that trans people may be "intersex in the brain", either due to genetic or epigenetic causes, trans people deserve respect regardless of whether or not they are trans because of some intersex mechanism. And of course intersex people deserve respect regardless of their gender presentation and sexuality.

While trans & intersex have some things in common, I think it's best to treat them as separate topics, especially in discussions with people who are mostly uninformed on these topics, and/or with narrow-minded people who feel they have a natural right to look down on and criticize people who don't conform to traditional sexist / heteronormative / binary gender stereotypes.

lucrezaborgia wrote:And to think this was someone that I thought wasn't one of the stupid people.

Stupidity is not a prerequisite for discriminatory attitudes. People who appear to be otherwise intelligent may hold some rather stupid beliefs. That wouldn't be a problem if those beliefs didn't affect the way they interact with others...


Роберт wrote:To your "friend": Are you aware that someone born XY can naturally have a functioning uterus and never even know that they aren't XX?

Gee willikers. A lot of the transphobic comments I see make it clear that the person doesn't even have a basic understanding of intersex.

To be fair, most people don't have a basic understanding of intersex. It's a fairly complex topic, and doesn't have that much relevance to the general population. For that matter, there are still plenty of professional people who ought to have basic knowledge of intersex topics and the modern approach to the care of intersex children whose knowledge in this area is very rudimentary or outdated.

lucrezaborgia wrote:I linked them to the wiki article on intersex but I kind of doubt that they read it. The idea that there isn't an absolute dichotomy in regards to sex issues is beyond a lot of people, even people who think that they are quite progressive and open!

A few decades ago it wasn't easy to find decent information about gender variance or intersex; thankfully, the Internet has changed that. Still, unless these issues directly affect them or someone close to them, most people remain rather ignorant of these matters. The narrow-minded people I mentioned above are hardly likely to educate themselves on these matters, and they tend to resist well-meaning attempts at trying to educate them. In their minds, they "know" they are right and that alternative views are flawed, so any discussion is likely to push them into a pathetic point-scoring contest that can easily escalate into verbal LGBTIQ bashing.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:32 pm UTC

Last night I had a dream that someone in this thread went on a tirade calling logic oppressive, and so I yelled at them repeatedly until I got banned :?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:45 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:
Роберт wrote:To your "friend": Are you aware that someone born XY can naturally have a functioning uterus and never even know that they aren't XX?

Gee willikers. A lot of the transphobic comments I see make it clear that the person doesn't even have a basic understanding of intersex.

To be fair, most people don't have a basic understanding of intersex. It's a fairly complex topic, and doesn't have that much relevance to the general population. For that matter, there are still plenty of professional people who ought to have basic knowledge of intersex topics and the modern approach to the care of intersex children whose knowledge in this area is very rudimentary or outdated.


That's all true, but the thing is people cling to their faulty knowledge so that they can oppress others and be jerks. It's one thing to not understand biology - it's a completely different thing to not understand biology and go on to use it as a basis for oppression, then when presented with someone educated all of a sudden switch goalposts and ad-hoc rationalize why you're still right.

The thing I hate most about chromosome nazis, as you put it, is that their ideas are so obviously contradictory to how they normally behave, yet they not only don't realize it but rationalize it away when presented with it. As well as the fact that, as I said, they don't know what they're talking about, and anyone with an actual education in biology (hi!) will be pretty fast to point out that categories are fuzzy, categorization for categorization's sake is useless, and XX XY is a false dichotomy and actually only relevant to sex because they influence hormones in utero, something which on occasion happens differently than is expected, and which is the actual source of sex differentiation.

Also, in adult organisms, there's effectively no difference between having two X and one Y with the exception of meiosis. So it's double-dumb.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Carnildo » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:58 am UTC

lucrezaborgia wrote:
Роберт wrote:To your "freind": Are you aware that someone born XY can naturally have a functioning uterus and never even know that they aren't XX?

Gee willikers. A lot of the transphobic comments I see make it clear that the person doesn't even have a basic understanding of intersex.


I linked them to the wiki article on intersex but I kind of doubt that they read it. The idea that there isn't an absolute dichotomy in regards to sex issues is beyond a lot of people, even people who think that they are quite progressive and open!


The article I find most useful is XY female. It's got an eye-catching title, and an undeniable example of "chromosomes don't equal sex".
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:06 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Last night I had a dream that someone in this thread went on a tirade calling logic oppressive, and so I yelled at them repeatedly until I got banned :?

You sure got some weird kind of nightmares.
*hugs*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:19 pm UTC

*hugs*

On the plus side, I figured out that I'm pretty much ok financially as long as I don't make the huge payment on principle that I was going to on the motorcycle. I'll end up paying more in the long run, but that's a small price for survival. So to celebrate I bought Mike's Hard Lemonade and my first set of proper motorcycle leathers and saddle bags, in that order :3 Also my local bike shop is very trans* friendly, which makes me happy. Go counterculture!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Amie » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:42 pm UTC

*hugs* to anyone who wants them.

Here's something that some of you may think is nice: Couples switching each other's clothes.I don't know why society can't let people dress however they want to because all of that looks amazing, switched or not. Fuck yeah gender neutrality!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Jessica » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:38 pm UTC

I love that image site of the people clothes swapping.

re: chromosomes. I hate this argument as well. Generally, I just go with "so?" and if they push, ask them if they've ever verified someone's chromosomes before. But, that's not really a good way to go about it, I don't think. I'd say maybe start using gender neutral pronouns for them, and tell them that until they produce a DNA test showing what their sex chromosome pair is, you won't gender them. But, again, that doesn't seem right.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:10 am UTC

Jessica wrote:I love that image site of the people clothes swapping.

re: chromosomes. I hate this argument as well. Generally, I just go with "so?" and if they push, ask them if they've ever verified someone's chromosomes before. But, that's not really a good way to go about it, I don't think. I'd say maybe start using gender neutral pronouns for them, and tell them that until they produce a DNA test showing what their sex chromosome pair is, you won't gender them. But, again, that doesn't seem right.


I don't think there's a good way of dealing with that. Asking if they've verified or verify often, or even know their own are whatever should make them pause, and if they're intellectually honest, they'll at least think. There are a multitude of reasons that that's obviously an ad-hoc rationalization, and showing it to be such will distinguish between those who are interested in why things are the way they are and those who aren't.

If they're not, and are only interested in facts and thought so long as it supports them, then I don't think there's much to be done. That is unfortunately often the case.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby lucrezaborgia » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:43 am UTC

For what it's worth, he stopped arguing with me after I linked to the intersex page on wiki.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:56 am UTC


I didn't read any of the text, just scrolled through the pictures thinking "wow, these pictures could all have been taken in Vancouver. Huh. Wait a minute... I know that view... hold on..."

Finally read the text at the top. Doh. :wink:
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:20 pm UTC

lucrezaborgia wrote:For what it's worth, he stopped arguing with me after I linked to the intersex page on wiki.

Excellent, lucreza. I hope that I was wrong in this particular case.


Shivahn wrote:That's all true, but the thing is people cling to their faulty knowledge so that they can oppress others and be jerks. It's one thing to not understand biology - it's a completely different thing to not understand biology and go on to use it as a basis for oppression, then when presented with someone educated all of a sudden switch goalposts and ad-hoc rationalize why you're still right.

The thing I hate most about chromosome nazis, as you put it, is that their ideas are so obviously contradictory to how they normally behave, yet they not only don't realize it but rationalize it away when presented with it. As well as the fact that, as I said, they don't know what they're talking about, and anyone with an actual education in biology (hi!) will be pretty fast to point out that categories are fuzzy, categorization for categorization's sake is useless, and XX XY is a false dichotomy and actually only relevant to sex because they influence hormones in utero, something which on occasion happens differently than is expected, and which is the actual source of sex differentiation.

Also, in adult organisms, there's effectively no difference between having two X and one Y with the exception of meiosis. So it's double-dumb.


Good points, Shivahn. And I agree it is great when / if we can educate people like that. Alternatively, there's the Elaine Roberts strategy. :)

Actually, even hormones aren't really the "last word" in sex determination, they're just a core component of a complex system that controls a very primordial mechanism: gonad tissue sex expression ultimately depends on the temperature it develops in. In many creatures, including birds and mammals, sex hormone feedback systems are responsible for (hopefully) creating a gonad temperature that's consistent with the chromosomal sex, but in many other creatures, including turtles and many reptiles, those hormone feedback systems don't exist and the sex of offspring is purely determined by the temperature that the eggs incubate at.

Here are some interesting links on this topic.

A technical article:
Temperature-Dependent Sex Determination: The Interplay of Steroid Hormones and Temperature

A Scientific American article that's aimed at a more general readership:
David Crews. 1994. Animal sexuality. Scientific American 270: 108-114. I love the picture on the title page. :)

More articles by David Crews: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~crewslab/reprintsonline.htm
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:20 pm UTC

I think you wanted this link for the Scientific American reprint.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby ChimeraMica » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:02 am UTC

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:12 am UTC

I read about this a short while ago. Woot! I love seeing haterpie served back up to the haters, with whipped cream and strawberries on top. So sweet. :mrgreen:
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Amie » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:33 am UTC

Spoiler:
I am about to fucking break right now. I am angry and sad. There seems to be a lot of sympathy for all kinds of people at least on the specific forums they're part of. But not for me. Why? I am agender. Not cis, not trans, not genderfluid or androgynous. Not neutrois. Agender. I don't have identify with a gender. Of all the things that annoy me, I am enraged by this the most - "Oh but you have a girl's body and a girl's voice so you can pass. You are cis." No I am not. Fuck you. I know some people care about that but I don't. I could care less. I have never done my "upper lips" even though people have suggested it. So my body grows a mustache. I am not going to shave it off. Fuck you. I am not going to "wax" because I don't care about thick hair on my arms and legs. "Oh really, so why do you paint your nails? Hmm?" Because I fucking feel like it. I painted my boyfriend's nails when he was here and we both liked it. Someday if I feel like wearing something stereotypically male, then I fucking well will. I have problems with my body and I don't like it when people ignore me because I am not attractive enough. I have body issues, same as most other people. None of these things have anything to do with gender. I am what I am. And if I say I am agender, then that's what I am. NOT cis. Not anything else that implies that I have ANY gender at all. Also, if anyone is reading this and understands, I could use a hug.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby NovaNatalia » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:42 am UTC

*Gives you that hug without hesitation or reservation*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Amie » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:36 pm UTC

Thank you, natashatasha. *hugs back gratefully*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:12 pm UTC

Thanks, Vaniver.


Amie, you sound like you're comfortable with your agenderness, but that you're uncomfortable with the way the people around you are trying to gender you, and I guess that feels a hell of a lot like gender dysphoria, and plenty of us here know what that feels like. Remember, you have friends here that are willing to offer you sympathy, no matter what their individual gender alignment (or lack thereof).

* big hugs *
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby XJ_0 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:34 pm UTC

*Hugs Amie*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby ChimeraMica » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:21 pm UTC

Amie wrote: Also, if anyone is reading this and understands, I could use a hug.


*tacklehugs*

I think I know how you feel, and I'm somewhat shocked that the transgender community could be so closed-minded.

Probably most transgendered people deal with something just like this. I'm terrified of getting a job because I've barely even started transitioning. I could ignore pronouns and feel horrible, but if I speak up about it than everyone will cast a doubting eye, or worse yet say they "can't do that until you're more feminine." Sometimes people acknowledge it but just don't put any effort into it, and when I'm constantly correcting I get labeled as "annoying." It's insulting, demeaning, and casts a light on me that makes me feel like I'm not good enough.

It's shocking to me that people who have gone through that would be so cliquey and put you on the sidelines, and cast doubt on the legitimacy of your identity, but I highly doubt the people in this forum will do that. :3
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:08 am UTC

ChimeraMica wrote: It's shocking to me that people who have gone through that would be so cliquey and put you on the sidelines, and cast doubt on the legitimacy of your identity, but I highly doubt the people in this forum will do that. :3

Yeah, this safespace is very supportive. Sadly, there are plenty of trans people who aren't so supportive, though, and it's a common complaint in online trans communities that trying to get consensus from a group of trans people is harder than herding cats.

It seems logical to me that there is a lot of diversity among people who don't conform to the traditional cis binary gender stereotype, so it may seem puzzling that many trans people are not accepting of all other trans people. I think what happens is that most trans people spend a lot of time thinking about their own gender identity, trying to find a theory that "explains" their trans-ness and allows them to deal with it. That's fair enough; the problems arise when they try to fit all other trans people into their theory... In many ways, the information available on the Net these days helps trans people to become more aware of the rich diversity of trans theory and other trans people, but humans can be funny once they get an idea stuck in their heads. :)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby ChimeraMica » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:14 am UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:In many ways, the information available on the Net these days helps trans people to become more aware of the rich diversity of trans theory and other trans people, but humans can be funny once they get an idea stuck in their heads. :)


Heh, there's so much crossover and diversity I think sometimes classification may hurt more than it helps. From my own personal experience it seems that it encourages someone to classify themselves, which made things hard for me personally. It's easy to cast doubt on yourself if you feel pressured to classify yourself but have trouble doing that.

It seems kind of dehumanizing in some ways. I'd call myself a pansexual, polyamorous, genderqueer trans girl if I classified myself, but by saying that I by no means mean to imply that I'm really anything like(or necessarily unlike) other people with that label. I only mean that I fit within that broad definition, for whatever reason.

Spoiler:
It reminds me of a retort within the gay community (there's one in the trans community that's very similar but it's not as strong or as widespread) that kind of marginalizes people who are ex-gay, or who say that they are gay because of their upbringing, or other things that don't "fit in." It's understandable considering what gay people put up with every day, but it makes things harder for people who are trying to define themselves, and may even cast doubt on their sexuality altogether if their explanation for their sexuality doesn't conform to the ideals of the loudest gay or lgbt retort. Of course this is all just collateral damage of a battle that they/we shouldn't even have to fight.


On the other hand, people will probably try to classify themselves anyway, and having that standard forces a consistency which is more relevant to the issues and people involved.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:38 am UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:It seems logical to me that there is a lot of diversity among people who don't conform to the traditional cis binary gender stereotype, so it may seem puzzling that many trans people are not accepting of all other trans people. I think what happens is that most trans people spend a lot of time thinking about their own gender identity, trying to find a theory that "explains" their trans-ness and allows them to deal with it.

I think there's also a lot of demeaning others to establish ones' own self as better. Spoiled for being upsetting examples and such:
Spoiler:
There's the whole "Oh, if you don't get surgery you're still a man." Sometimes it goes further: I have seen comics that state "If you got surgery, but wouldn't have definitely killed yourself without it, you're a man." Oppression of other trans people for the sake of "I'm a real woman, unlike those posers" is an unfortunate (and self-harming, I believe) phenomenon.

Note that that also has the side effect of erasure of any non-gender binary people. It's not possible under that paradigm to be actually be in between: you're a woman or a man, and if you're like me you're X but anything else is definitely the other one. Look at those silly other ones.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:45 am UTC

Spoiler:
I dunno. I find it hard to take ex-anything seriously. Not the claim that they stopped being whatever it is they were, or even the claim that they ever were that to begin with. Just the claim that they got over it by force of will. Wanting to be not trans seems to be a pretty common thing among transfolk, so saying "I got over it because I wanted it more" is a pretty flagrantly stupid, self-serving and horrible thing to say. Other than that I'm cool with most things. I don't like how new-agey or religious a lot of transfolk seem to be but then I don't chalk that up to the fact that they're trans, or make an issue out of it unless they do first. Oh, and the surgery = woman people. They make up for being annoying by being easily trolled acceptable targets though
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Amie » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:44 am UTC

Thank you for all the hugs. I really do appreciate it and I'm feeling a bit better now.

I was annoyed because they were all like "Oh but you ARE privileged". Yeah right. I have lost friends and jobs because of my lack of "feminity" and other reasons. Of course I haven't found trouble with other things that transfolk might have trouble with and I will fight for their rights until I run out of breath. But there's plenty of cis-privileges agender folk don't get and it's not easily noticeable but that doesn't mean we're leading perfect lives.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby ChimeraMica » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:13 am UTC

Brace wrote:
Spoiler:
I dunno. I find it hard to take ex-anything seriously. Not the claim that they stopped being whatever it is they were, or even the claim that they ever were that to begin with. Just the claim that they got over it by force of will. Wanting to be not trans seems to be a pretty common thing among transfolk, so saying "I got over it because I wanted it more" is a pretty flagrantly stupid, self-serving and horrible thing to say. Other than that I'm cool with most things. I don't like how new-agey or religious a lot of transfolk seem to be but then I don't chalk that up to the fact that they're trans, or make an issue out of it unless they do first. Oh, and the surgery = woman people. They make up for being annoying by being easily trolled acceptable targets though


Honestly I still think they deserve a little bit of respect. Generally speaking, ex-gay people are actually people who practice abstinence, and the "ex" part doesn't include desire, but even if that's not the case, and they believe that they truly changed, be it through force of will because they had serious reservations, or through the will of God, I doubt it's much better to cast doubt on them than to have doubt casted on us. That in mind, there is a massive issue in how these people participate or are used in propaganda. I think it seriously harms people who are afraid of being queer.


Amie wrote:Thank you for all the hugs. I really do appreciate it and I'm feeling a bit better now.

I was annoyed because they were all like "Oh but you ARE privileged". Yeah right. I have lost friends and jobs because of my lack of "feminity" and other reasons. Of course I haven't found trouble with other things that transfolk might have trouble with and I will fight for their rights until I run out of breath. But there's plenty of cis-privileges agender folk don't get and it's not easily noticeable but that doesn't mean we're leading perfect lives.


I don't mean do distract from the issue at all, and of course you don't have to answer if you're uncomfortable, but can you explain your situation a bit more? I think a little bit of context would really help in understanding your situation.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:10 am UTC

Side note (not directed at anyone in particular, just mentioning it because the topic came up) - pretty much everyone has some kind of privilege, it's not a scale from (less <--> more); privilege extends along many axes. The concept of privilege shouldn't be used to put people down, but rather just to help encourage understanding.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby NovaNatalia » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:47 am UTC

I don't know why I'm whinging here, these are all my fault, but I feel like I need to get it out.

Last night I had a dream in which I was pregnant. When I woke up I burst into tears, since I will never get to experience that and would be willing to trade anything for it :( When I hear people complaining about periods, there's always the superficial "I'm glad I don't have to deal with that", but I would gladly accept it without second thought in exchange for baby-making bits.

The other thing is getting hormones. I still haven't gone to a GP to get them, even though I know in theory that all I need is to ask and I'll get them. Every time I mean to I just can't summon up the courage to pick up the phone, and I'm stuck on the whole 'hating doing things I've never done before'. The fact that I need to speak with a real person to organise this is terrifying (can't just get an appointment by e-mail), especially since I've never made a doctor's appointment before, never visited one on my own and the doctor is going to be a complete stranger in a place I've never been before. And then I need to tell them I'm trans-, which is terifying in its own right, and I don't know the exact process of what happens then. Do I need a blood test? I hate needles (yes, I know I'll need to get used to them), and my last blood test was horrifically painful. I don't know how much I have to pay for hormones (since I won't know what I need until I visit), or if I'll even be able to afford them.
I know I'm overthinking this, but I'm just so paralysed by so many variables.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Amie » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:48 am UTC

I'm so sorry. I don't have any practical solutions as to how you can deal with these horrible feelings but you should know that NONE of it is your fault. It isn't. No matter how much you feel like it is. You might want to blame something or someone but don't blame yourself. *hugs* if you want them.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:43 pm UTC

ChimeraMica wrote:Heh, there's so much crossover and diversity I think sometimes classification may hurt more than it helps. From my own personal experience it seems that it encourages someone to classify themselves, which made things hard for me personally. It's easy to cast doubt on yourself if you feel pressured to classify yourself but have trouble doing that.

It seems kind of dehumanizing in some ways. I'd call myself a pansexual, polyamorous, genderqueer trans girl if I classified myself, but by saying that I by no means mean to imply that I'm really anything like(or necessarily unlike) other people with that label. I only mean that I fit within that broad definition, for whatever reason.

On the other hand, people will probably try to classify themselves anyway, and having that standard forces a consistency which is more relevant to the issues and people involved.


Here's something I said earlier in the thread regarding labels:
PM 2Ring wrote:The sexuality / gender landscape just covers so much territory that it's hard to even get us all to agree on a common term to describe people like us, what to speak of sharing common goals, philosophies, etc. And while I totally agree with your statements about the "Us vs them" mentality and how it can lead to seeing straight people as "the enemy", I believe that at this stage we don't have a lot of choice. One of the main things we all have in common is that despite vast improvements in queer rights around the world in the last few decades we are still generally discriminated against in various ways by the majority straight society. So for political reasons we need to present at least the facade of a united front. As the great Benjamin Franklin said: "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

As far as many straight people are concerned, they don't really see a difference between the different types of queer people, apart from differences of degree and differences due to our birth gender (ie what got written on our birth certificate). I've had conversations with well-educated straight people who firmly believe that trans is just a more extreme form of gay. :roll:

On the topic of labels, they have their good and bad points. If they are understood as ways of referring to regions of the sexuality / gender landscape, like signposts, they can be useful, as they can give us the points of reference we need to discuss this complex & subtle topic. Their bad side arises when we try to attach them to individuals because that is essentially an attempt to chain the person to the signpost. Actually, it's even worse that that because we all have different interpretations of what the labels mean, which just adds to the possible confusions & misunderstandings.



ChimeraMica wrote:
Spoiler:
It reminds me of a retort within the gay community (there's one in the trans community that's very similar but it's not as strong or as widespread) that kind of marginalizes people who are ex-gay, or who say that they are gay because of their upbringing, or other things that don't "fit in." It's understandable considering what gay people put up with every day, but it makes things harder for people who are trying to define themselves, and may even cast doubt on their sexuality altogether if their explanation for their sexuality doesn't conform to the ideals of the loudest gay or lgbt retort. Of course this is all just collateral damage of a battle that they/we shouldn't even have to fight.

Brace wrote:
Spoiler:
I dunno. I find it hard to take ex-anything seriously. Not the claim that they stopped being whatever it is they were, or even the claim that they ever were that to begin with. Just the claim that they got over it by force of will. Wanting to be not trans seems to be a pretty common thing among transfolk, so saying "I got over it because I wanted it more" is a pretty flagrantly stupid, self-serving and horrible thing to say. Other than that I'm cool with most things. I don't like how new-agey or religious a lot of transfolk seem to be but then I don't chalk that up to the fact that they're trans, or make an issue out of it unless they do first. Oh, and the surgery = woman people. They make up for being annoying by being easily trolled acceptable targets though


Honestly I still think they deserve a little bit of respect. Generally speaking, ex-gay people are actually people who practice abstinence, and the "ex" part doesn't include desire, but even if that's not the case, and they believe that they truly changed, be it through force of will because they had serious reservations, or through the will of God, I doubt it's much better to cast doubt on them than to have doubt casted on us. That in mind, there is a massive issue in how these people participate or are used in propaganda. I think it seriously harms people who are afraid of being queer.


Never underestimate the power of internalised homophobia or transphobia. Note that most "ex-gay" people come from strongly religious communities, or at least from communities where the social processes promote anti-LGBT attitudes as normal and wholesome. It's extra hard to come to terms with one's own sexual or gender non-conformity when you've lived your whole life in an environment that tells you that such things are sinful &/or broken. So I can understand that some people with queer tendencies from such environments will do all sorts of things to crush those tendencies, but that doesn't mean they have the right to make the rest of us feel like shit.

Shivahn wrote:
PM 2Ring wrote:It seems logical to me that there is a lot of diversity among people who don't conform to the traditional cis binary gender stereotype, so it may seem puzzling that many trans people are not accepting of all other trans people. I think what happens is that most trans people spend a lot of time thinking about their own gender identity, trying to find a theory that "explains" their trans-ness and allows them to deal with it.

I think there's also a lot of demeaning others to establish ones' own self as better.


Oh, yeah. Some trans people are extreme defenders of binary gender, and can be far more so than many cis people. If people want to play binary gender games, that's fine by me - but it can get ugly when they insist everybody has to play the game, and has to play it by their rules.
Shivahn wrote:Spoiled for being upsetting examples and such:
Spoiler:
There's the whole "Oh, if you don't get surgery you're still a man." Sometimes it goes further: I have seen comics that state "If you got surgery, but wouldn't have definitely killed yourself without it, you're a man." Oppression of other trans people for the sake of "I'm a real woman, unlike those posers" is an unfortunate (and self-harming, I believe) phenomenon.

Note that that also has the side effect of erasure of any non-gender binary people. It's not possible under that paradigm to be actually be in between: you're a woman or a man, and if you're like me you're X but anything else is definitely the other one. Look at those silly other ones.


Spoiler:
You don't have to have gone through a suicidal phase to be "genuinely" trans. OTOH, I suspect that a majority of trans people have felt suicidal at some stage or another, or at least wished that they didn't exist. Or wished they lived on a planet where they didn't feel like an outsider.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:11 pm UTC

(Sorry for the double post, but I think this deserves to be separated from the previous stuff.)

natashatasha,

Always remember that you have friends here. Never feel bad about having a whinge here about the pain your gender dysphoria causes. But there's only so much we can do for you over the Net. You really need to make contact with some trans-friendly people in your community. Net friends are great, but you need some people you can physically interact with. People you can hug. People you can go shopping with.

Having almost no social group isn't good for anybody, and a lot of trans people have a tendency to isolate themselves. I know I do. :) But trust me, social interaction is a Good Thing. Social interaction with trans-friendly people is awesome. :)


There's no need to tell a doctor about your trans-ness on your very first visit. When you feel comfortable with the doctor, then you can tell them. If you want to, you can say you have some significant "personal issues", and that you suspect that you're depressed, and that you might benefit from time with a counsellor. A doctor can refer you to a counsellor in your area, and if you don't feel comfortable discussing stuff with that particular counsellor, you can choose another one. And it will all be covered by Medicare.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:09 pm UTC

natashatasha wrote:Do I need a blood test? I hate needles (yes, I know I'll need to get used to them), and my last blood test was horrifically painful. I don't know how much I have to pay for hormones (since I won't know what I need until I visit), or if I'll even be able to afford them.
I know I'm overthinking this, but I'm just so paralysed by so many variables.


To answer some of your specific questions quoted above:

Doctors will generally require a blood test for hormones, yes (and this is good, because hormones do mess with your blood chemistry and monitoring that is part of being safe). However, blood tests should not need to be extremely painful - perhaps the last test you had done was by an inexperienced lab tech or something? A skilled nurse or lab tech should be able to draw the necessary blood sample without significant pain - typically just the feeling of a tiny pinch at the start. (This is coming from someone who also hates needles - I find that not watching and instead just looking at the opposite wall or something helps.)

If you're covered by any kind of regular health insurance (your own, parents', medicaid, whatever), hormones will generally be covered by that, which means you'll probably only have a tiny copay (e.g. my insurance's is $10) for them. If not, they're slightly more expensive, but less than an order of magnitude (e.g. ~$60) - no hundreds/thousand dollar costs here.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:37 pm UTC

Amie wrote:I was annoyed because they were all like "Oh but you ARE privileged". Yeah right. I have lost friends and jobs because of my lack of "feminity" and other reasons. Of course I haven't found trouble with other things that transfolk might have trouble with and I will fight for their rights until I run out of breath. But there's plenty of cis-privileges agender folk don't get and it's not easily noticeable but that doesn't mean we're leading perfect lives.

Yeah, this seems similar to the "bisexuals are heteroprivileged". Yes, we are, as long as we stay in the closet - you know, just like gay people who stay in the closet. Why talk so much about bisexuals being heteroprivileged and so little about straight people being heteroprivileged? Likewise, why put so much emphasis on the (partial) cisprivilege of agender people when cis people like me have so much more of it?

natashatasha wrote:Last night I had a dream in which I was pregnant. When I woke up I burst into tears, since I will never get to experience that and would be willing to trade anything for it :( When I hear people complaining about periods, there's always the superficial "I'm glad I don't have to deal with that", but I would gladly accept it without second thought in exchange for baby-making bits.

*hugs*

The other thing is getting hormones. I still haven't gone to a GP to get them, even though I know in theory that all I need is to ask and I'll get them. Every time I mean to I just can't summon up the courage to pick up the phone, and I'm stuck on the whole 'hating doing things I've never done before'. The fact that I need to speak with a real person to organise this is terrifying (can't just get an appointment by e-mail), especially since I've never made a doctor's appointment before, never visited one on my own and the doctor is going to be a complete stranger in a place I've never been before. And then I need to tell them I'm trans-, which is terifying in its own right, and I don't know the exact process of what happens then.

I'm so with you. I have terrible problems calling new doctors to make appointments, for the most trivial illnesses or problems.
In the US there are text-to-voice services for the deaf, hard-of-hearing and people with communication disabilities e.g. on the autism spectrum and I think your anxiety issues would qualify, too. Is there such a service in your area?
If there isn't, can you get someone else to call for you?
Or would you find it easier to go there and make an appointment at the desk instead of calling?

Do I need a blood test? I hate needles (yes, I know I'll need to get used to them), and my last blood test was horrifically painful.

My first several blood tests were terribly painful. So I thought they are just liars when they claim "it won't hurt". But then I was at a hospital and it actually hurt zero. So it depends entirely on the skill of the blood taker.
I'd say the important thing is not to look at how they stick the needle in.

*huggles* and good luck with everything.

PM 2Ring wrote:Oh, yeah. Some trans people are extreme defenders of binary gender, and can be far more so than many cis people. If people want to play binary gender games, that's fine by me - but it can get ugly when they insist everybody has to play the game, and has to play it by their rules.

I get the impression that there are also (even more?) issues in the other direction (transgender against transsexuel). In the way of "Why do you need to transition, you should strike down the gender binary / ignore gender altogether / your transitioning is holding up the gender binary / sexist stuff."
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby ChimeraMica » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:52 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:
Here's something I said earlier in the thread regarding labels:
PM 2Ring wrote:The sexuality / gender landscape just covers so much territory that it's hard to even get us all to agree on a common term to describe people like us, what to speak of sharing common goals, philosophies, etc. And while I totally agree with your statements about the "Us vs them" mentality and how it can lead to seeing straight people as "the enemy", I believe that at this stage we don't have a lot of choice. One of the main things we all have in common is that despite vast improvements in queer rights around the world in the last few decades we are still generally discriminated against in various ways by the majority straight society. So for political reasons we need to present at least the facade of a united front. As the great Benjamin Franklin said: "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

As far as many straight people are concerned, they don't really see a difference between the different types of queer people, apart from differences of degree and differences due to our birth gender (ie what got written on our birth certificate). I've had conversations with well-educated straight people who firmly believe that trans is just a more extreme form of gay. :roll:

On the topic of labels, they have their good and bad points. If they are understood as ways of referring to regions of the sexuality / gender landscape, like signposts, they can be useful, as they can give us the points of reference we need to discuss this complex & subtle topic. Their bad side arises when we try to attach them to individuals because that is essentially an attempt to chain the person to the signpost. Actually, it's even worse that that because we all have different interpretations of what the labels mean, which just adds to the possible confusions & misunderstandings.


A very interesting read. It's quite enlightening.




PM 2Ring wrote:Never underestimate the power of internalised homophobia or transphobia. Note that most "ex-gay" people come from strongly religious communities, or at least from communities where the social processes promote anti-LGBT attitudes as normal and wholesome. It's extra hard to come to terms with one's own sexual or gender non-conformity when you've lived your whole life in an environment that tells you that such things are sinful &/or broken. So I can understand that some people with queer tendencies from such environments will do all sorts of things to crush those tendencies, but that doesn't mean they have the right to make the rest of us feel like shit.


I by no means meant to imply that they didn't cause harm. I only meant that there shouldn't be so much hatred for the label ex-gay. I dislike any doubt casted on anyone's identity, whether it's from the church community or from within the mainstream lgbt community.

ChimeraMica wrote:Generally speaking, ex-gay people are actually people who practice abstinence, and the "ex" part doesn't include desire.


I meant in legitimate communities composed of ex-gay members. That is, ones that don't dissolve after about a year because their "treatment" wasn't substantial enough. I should have been more specific. I don't think I was careful enough with such a touchy subject.



*hugs natashatasha tight*
I don't know how to say this without risking being blunt, but it helps me when I'm facing overwhelming problems. Sometimes when I face a big problem I start losing before I even start. I worry about things and make theories and see a lot of things that would make it difficult before I've even tried. I'm not saying your worries aren't legitimate, but don't let that stop you from trying. Sometimes it's best to just ignore all worries and just plunge in recklessly. :3

Oh, and to address a specific worry, hormones shouldn't cost too much. I pay less than fifty dollars a month and it's not prescribed medication.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:13 pm UTC

As far as blood tests go, making sure you're hydrated beforehand makes it about a million times less painful and a lot quicker.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:17 pm UTC

For reals? Why did nobody ever tell me? I gotta try that. How does the hydration improve this?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby ChimeraMica » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:54 pm UTC

Heh, I've heard of cases where drinking a lot of tea makes you seem like you're anemic so you can't donate blood. xP I think it has to do with the tannins.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby natraj » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:19 am UTC

Monika wrote:For reals? Why did nobody ever tell me? I gotta try that. How does the hydration improve this?


Proper hydration helps increase blood volume and also dilate your veins somewhat so they are bigger/easier to find. Dehydrated veins are thinner and harder to get needles into.
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