The Resistance 4 (GAME OVER, Resistance win 3-1)

[t1mm01994]

Meh, I actually would have liked to see the votes on that one. It likely would have been a 9/1 with infina being the one, but it surely would be a nice way to call the bluff. Ah well. Fingers crossed I got it right on this one..

[webby]

Meh, I actually would have liked to see the votes on that one. It likely would have been a 9/1 with infina being the one, but it surely would be a nice way to call the bluff. Ah well. Fingers crossed I got it right on this one..

Given I've had a request, you may vote on the proposed team if you wish in these twelve hours. Default is to accept.

[rigwarl]

I didn't want to say it beforehand, but I thought infina (if resistance) might have been trying to bait spies into going for a insta-win, but I also didn't think it would work at all. I doubt anyone is silly enough to reject this mission.

[TheMaskedGecko]

I don't have a problem with this team, not that I could have without being hypocritical

[webby]

The current team leader is: Angua
The proposed mission is: 1.

Proposed Team Member 1: Angua
Proposed Team Member 2: rigwarl
Proposed Team Member 3: t1mm01994

Votes:
1. Angua - ACCEPT
2. Rigwarl - ACCEPT
3. t1mm01994 - ACCEPT
4. _infina_ - REJECT
5. Lataro - ACCEPT
6. Boomfrog - ACCEPT
7. Silknor - ACCEPT
8. Gopher of Pern - ACCEPT
9. Adam H - ACCEPT
10. TheMaskedGecko - ACCEPT

Consecutive rejected teams: 0

The proposed team has been ACCEPTED. The second mission begins now and will end in 12 hours. Spies, if any, must PM whether the mission succeeds or fails, and default to fail.

You are not permitted to talk in-thread during the mission phase.

In the Spotlight has been used on t1mm01994. Tim is to say whether he PASSES or FAILS the mission in-thread.

[t1mm01994]

I find this humorous.

Ah well, PASS

[webby]

Out matched and on the run, The Returners fell back to their secondary bases. Dispersed and weakened, they knew their very existence was at stake with their next move. Their only hope was to bide their time and wait, for surely their leaders would get word of this setback and send word. Luckily, their fall back bases hadn't been compromised, and for the time being, they were safe, but for how much longer? They still had Empire spies among their ranks, and at any time, they could leak word. Time was indeed not on their side...

Mission Disposition:

SUCCESS
SUCCESS
SUCCESS

Second Mission: SUCCESS!

Missions completed by the Resistance: 1
Missions sabotaged by the Spies: 1

The third mission has begun.

The current team leader is: rigwarl (t1mm01994 on deck).
The current mission is: [_]

Current Team Member 1:
Current Team Member 2:
Current Team Member 3:
Add others as necessary.

Plot powers have been provided to the team leader. They must be distributed by the team leader before a team may be proposed, but discussion is permitted to aid the team leader in the distribution. Distribution will occur by direct PM, but only the name of the plot power may be communicated and I must be copied onto all PMs. The three powers are No Confidence, Keeping A Close Eye on You, and Opinion Maker.

Consecutive Rejected Teams: 0

Don't forget to choose which mission you want to do as well as who will be on the team.

Deadline will be four days from now, 10am AEDST (UTC+11) on Tuesday 6th March.

[t1mm01994]

Too bad the 12 hour notice was a bit short to get any spies doubting, but apart from that, who in this audience is not convinced infina is spy?
Apart from that, riggy, I suggest a mission with the 3 that went on M2 + TMG. It's the safe way of doing stuff... If it fails, I should strongly reconsider my strategy for this game.

[Adam H]

Lol at infina's reject. I don't know what to make of that... why would a spy reject? I can see why a town would reject it, because then if we're in this situation again there's a much higher chance of catching spies. But now we're just swimming in wine so I'll conclude that it was neutral/slightly-scummy.

I don't really care who gets NC. I'd prefer not t1mm or lataro. I vote me.

KACEOY should not go to t1mm or lataro. Presumedly it should go to someone on the next mission?

Opinion Maker... I can't decide whether it should go to infina or not. I'm fine taking it - I'm rejecting more often than not so it might be most useful to see how the spies react to my vote. But I'd prefer to give it to a spy.

Angua and rigwarl didn't prove anything last mission, and t1mm certainly didn't, so there's no additional reason to put them on the next mission. I'll reject anything with t1mm, infina, or angua, and I'll reject it if I'm not on it. I like Silknor, BF, TMG, and myself. Rigwarl would be my fifth choice.

[Adam H]

EBWOP: I'll also reject the team if Lataro's on it...

[t1mm01994]

So you're rougly OMGUSsing me and taking down everyone I claimed was town with me? Way to trust my skills as scum.. Ah well, let's talk about personal insults later, we've got a game to win.
Rereading, I have been dominating the conversation far too much. Apologies for that, I will try to retreat a bit. For anyone that has missed my opinion, scum to town: infina / Adam BF / Silk / GoP / Lataro / TMG / Angua / rig.
As such, you can imagine how I don't exactly agree with Adam's last post. Just asking: Adam, why would you want to reject anything with Angua on it?

[Adam H]

You can read my analysis on Angua. Basically, I think she's scum... I dunno why you trust her.

I've been saying you are likely scum for a while now, haven't I? I have little faith in Lataro's KACEOY result, I think you are scummier than rigwarl based on your OC result and rigwarl is pretty neutral/scummy IMO. You have been giving off really bad vibes.

[rigwarl]

Initial thoughts, will revisit after dinner- shame we got relatively crappy powers from the pool left, but oh well. For the last 2 missions, we have 3 strong powers: another OC, an Establish Confidence, and an Open Up are still left. The other 3 weaker powers left are: 2x Strong Leader and Take Responsibility. So actually we're not in bad shape now!

Adam H can you clarify why you wouldn't want myself, t1mm, or Angua on the team after we're basically confirmed resistance (spies would have to be insane not to fail last mission, as it would leave 3 unknown spies- 4 even if not t1mm, since you guys wouldn't even know if it was me or Angua- to detect by M5 and pretty much seal a victory). Only thing I can think of is using the next mission for information gathering, but to be honest I think that's a big waste since that means we have to rely on finding all 6 resistance members for M5 (I feel bad for disagreeing with you all the time, also I want to apologize for making you angry before).

So, the alternative is that we should play it safe and do whatever gives us the highest chance of passing the next mission. This is #1 priority over everything else, so I'm thinking mission 2 with the same members as last time then plus 1 more. Also, I know I said I wouldn't bring this up again but this situation proves why 5 =/= 3 rejections. You literally cannot use your plan of rejecting anything with me, t1mm, or infina on it, since we are the next 3 mission leaders so one of us will pretty much definitely be on the next mission.

Honestly all the plot powers seem not so useful. If we do M2 with myself/t1mm/Angua/extra, KACEOY is basically worthless on this mission with 3 resistance, since derp I wonder who failed!? It's not great to save either, but I guess that's probably best. Opinion Maker fairly not so good as always, No Confidence may potentially be useful later. I guess I'll give this to Angua as she's 99.9% resistance. Opinion Maker... do you guys think it will be better on a spy or on a resistance? On a spy it could act as like an indicator to tell how to vote, but on resistance, if they reject, all spies can reject to fail the mission. Honestly this plot power seems more of a drawback than a boon, but yea- should I give to someone i suspect spy or resistance?

[t1mm01994]

Angua analysis:
-Thinks Adam is scummy, wants t1mm to use strong leader. Seems to understand how NC could be bad in spies hands. Suggests Angua, rigwarl, and one other. Slightly scummy – she understands how spies can abuse NC, which might indicate that she was told how to use it in spy chat. Weak link with t1mm/infina/lataro (strong leader suggestion). Link with rigwarl.

Umm.. She is scummy because she warns people to be cautious about spreading NC? Me no understands.

-Will accept any team without Adam on it. Slightly scummy. She’d accept a GoP+Silknor+Lataro team?

This had been explained later on.

-Doesn’t trust rigwarl, tells infina not to reject mission because they’ll lose. Scummy - she seems to know infina is town.[/spoiler]

What. No, but seriously, just what.

So, I'm thinking (assuming everyone is ok with mission 1) that we do me, t1mm and one other. Maybe boomfrog?

What does everyone else think?

I will again reject a mission with t1mm on it. At this point in time I would feel better if Lataro was on it instead of t1mm.

I'm pretty sure that if you reject the mission, we lose it anyway.

I'm not sure how much I trust rigwarl. I'll go for it if others think it's best though.

This is, appearantly, a "scummy" post, because she seems to know that infina is town. Adam, could you indicate /where/ she indicates infina is town? She's pretty sure that if he rejects the mission [and scum follows], we [she and other townies, I think she meant to say there] lose it anyway. I.. Don't see why she's scummy, to be fair.
@rigwarl, good point at the starrt.

[rigwarl]

OK i am back from dinner!

KACEOY I think we should actually use on either t1mm or the new guy, doesn't matter who- in fact it's best as a 50/50 mixup just in case spies saved SS (though I doubt that). Even though it would have been like a massive mistake to let M3 slide as a spy for t1mm IMO so I'm thinking like 99.8% t1mm = town, BUT! saving KACEOY pretty much does even more nothing since either we pass this mission and are in the same situation, or we fail this then it doesn't do us anything at all (at that point we lose if KACEOY ever "works"). So yea, 99% useless power, but might as well use it! I'll give this KACEOY to... I'd like Angua, but if I can't give two powers to the same person maybe I'll just give NC to t1mm instead. Although then that would mean he has both NC/SL, which I personally don't care about since yea 99.8%, but if more than one other person doesn't like that I'll give NC to someone else. Opinion Maker, like I said I think is worse for resistance than spies, so I think I'll give it to someone who is usually vocal with their votes anyway, probably either infina or Lataro.

Anyway, powers aren't huge on this mission as we didn't get any of the 3 that I would have liked, so I'm done talking about them unless there is vehement disagreement. To summarize, Angua will use KACEOY on either t1mm or 4th person.

~~

Interestingly enough, if our group as a whole was more cooperative, I think M5 as a throwaway in order to wait for more powers is actually best (also I would feel awesome if I managed to pick all 6 resistance members), but unfortunately our group is not very cooperative so I'd rather not risk an opportunity to have a good shot at passing M2. 3/7 chance going by completely randomness, but I think we can do better than that given our 7 pages of text. In the meantime, I was wondering what people think of the fact of everyone accepting TMG's mission except infina who NC'd it.

webby, am I allowed to give two powers to 1 person?

[Lataro]

An Angua KACEOY result on Tim would pretty much confirm him as absolute town, and make his result on rig likely true.

Any team with infina or Adam on it is a horrible idea, and completely unacceptable.

As for the last three plus a fourth, Naturally I'd say myself.

From my POV, a town timmy and me as town means two of GoP/Silknor/BF are spies, and thus, it's very likely that GoP is a spy. Among those listed for M4, I felt that the inclusion of BF was the oddest on the list, and thus, I'm inclined to say it is those two.

I don't mind getting OP, it saves me the trouble of having to PM in a vote, since posting it is so much easier, and it makes that "official"

[webby]

webby, am I allowed to give two powers to 1 person?

There is no limit on the number of powers you can give to a single person.

[BoomFrog]

Alright, so I'm about 100% sure t1mm and Lataro are spies. Our only confirmation that t1mm is resistance comes from Lataro, but he doesn't need a well placed plot power to just lie about his original KACEOY result. If we put t1mm on this next mission and it fails and we assume that it was the 4th who failed it and still put t1mm on the last team then town loses. This is the spy plan. Look at the vote results for last mission. Everyone except infinia passed, which means the spies wanted that mission team.

Imagine a world in which Lataro is a spy. Spy-Lataro picks out the other spy on M4 to give a pass result to, it's the best move spy-Lataro could make. t1mm confirms Rig and the team that includes t1mm passes M1. Now t1mm goes on every mission for the rest of the game and gets to fail them all. If they have SS they didn't need to use it on M4 so they still have it saved to make t1mm look innocent for all future missions. And if they have Deception then OC will be useless as well as we will have to be blatant about who to give it to, to check t1mm. Convenient that the two people who could check t1mm or Lataro have been labeled as spies by t1mm.

t1mm is way to confident about things he shouldn't be if he was really resistance. Anyone who plays with infinia knows that he is easy to piss-off, but t1mm is sure that infinia is scum, which pisses infinia off, which "proves" t1mm is right. And t1mm shouldn't have any reason to trust Lataro. A spy-Lataro could have confirmed resistance-t1mm but t1mm never considers that and just assumes Lataro is resistance. Lataro has said very little this game, and almost none of it helpful, I don't see how t1mm has anything more then a neutral read on him. Also, t1mm has labeled me a spy but not once said any actual reason he suspects me.

This exact same thing happened in neighborhood mafia. t1mm put forth a very confident theory that I and mpolo where the scum them when we were actually two of the last three town. Nothing we said could convince MN of our innocence since t1mm spoke first and loudest. All of mpolo and my defenses looked like scum manipulation.

I'm pretty sure Angua is town, and I think Rigwal is, mostly because of this:

In the meantime, I was wondering what people think of the fact of everyone accepting TMG's mission except infina who NC'd it.

Spy-Rigwal would not want to bring this up.

However, Rigwal's had a couple terrible ideas in the last page:

Even though it would have been like a massive mistake to let M3 slide as a spy for t1mm IMO so I'm thinking like 99.8% t1mm = town,

Think about spy-t1mm+spy-Lataro if t1mm fails the mission while in the spotlight. Both are outed, and you and Angua are confirmed as resistance since t1mm wouldn't have to bite the bullet if there was a 2nd spy on the team. But if they pass and are trusted they can easily fail two of the next three missions.

Anyway, my recommendation for powers is absolutely do not give NC to t1mm or Lataro. With NC in their hands they can guarantee fail a mission as Lataro will the the 3rd mission leader and pick any team he wants. I'd give KACEOY (and NC) to Angua. OM is corner case useful at best but I think it's better on a spy, so Lataro or t1mm I guess. Spies probably already have ways to coordinate votes if they want to, we don't want to give them more info about resistance votes.

[rigwarl]

An Angua KACEOY result on Tim would pretty much confirm him as absolute town, and make his result on rig likely true.

There really should be no question about me or Angua as it's an obvious fail last mission if either of us are spies. I'm pretty sure same goes for t1mm too although it ITS makes it very slightly less likely, but yea 2 fails would mean that even if it were t1mm with ITS, we would have to discover 3 more spies before last mission which is pretty silly (not even mentioning passing the next one). If it were me or Angua, it'd be that in addition to figuring out which one of us failed.

[rigwarl]

Alright, so I'm about 100% sure t1mm and Lataro are spies. Our only confirmation that t1mm is resistance comes from Lataro, but he doesn't need a well placed plot power to just lie about his original KACEOY result. If we put t1mm on this next mission and it fails and we assume that it was the 4th who failed it and still put t1mm on the last team then town loses. This is the spy plan. Look at the vote results for last mission. Everyone except infinia passed, which means the spies wanted that mission team.

Note we will know exactly who fails the next mission unless they saved SS (I doubt it? Unless GoP/Lataro/t1mm spy combo which is super super unlikely, but not impossible I guess), because of KACEOY.

Think about spy-t1mm+spy-Lataro if t1mm fails the mission while in the spotlight. Both are outed, and you and Angua are confirmed as resistance since t1mm wouldn't have to bite the bullet if there was a 2nd spy on the team. But if they pass and are trusted they can easily fail two of the next three missions.

Yes you're right, I forgot spy t1mm incriminates Lataro. Good choice to ITS him I guess. Anyway, can you elaborate on how they would go about doing this bolded part?

[rigwarl]

Sorry for string posting but I just realized GoP doesn't have to be a spy in t1mm/Lataro combo.

Anyway, in that case I'm thinking myself/t1mm/Angua/newguy with KACEOY played from Angua on newguy. Fail = obvious t1mm spy, the reason we can't do KACEOY on t1mm is if the Lataro/t1mm theory is true then they have 50% chance of having Secret Sabotage since they wouldn't have used it yet, whereas if it's not true then, ugh, slightly tricky, but chances are (not impossible though!) spies have already used SS.

Is this acceptable to you Boomfrog?

[_infina_]

I would love to be able to clear myself of the wine poured all over me by t1mm. I would like to be the fourth on the team structure that rigwarl has proposed.

[BoomFrog]

Anyway, in that case I'm thinking myself/t1mm/Angua/newguy with KACEOY played from Angua on newguy. Fail = obvious t1mm spy, the reason we can't do KACEOY on t1mm is if the Lataro/t1mm theory is true then they have 50% chance of having Secret Sabotage since they wouldn't have used it yet, whereas if it's not true then, ugh, slightly tricky, but chances are (not impossible though!) spies have already used SS.

Is this acceptable to you Boomfrog?

Obviously, I'd much rather keep t1mm (and Lataro) completely off the mission. Failling this mission would out two spies, but it would also leave us with no fails left and two unkown spies. Also your forgetting about plant the evidence. If the spies have PtE they haven't had any reason to use it yet since both investigations have been in spy hands so far. I'd like, Angua, Rig, (2xnew guy), and Angua uses KACEOY on one of the new guys randomly decided by her. That lowers the chance of a spy power being useful to only 25%. If we pass the mission we do it again and win the game, if we fail we know a third spy 75% and have a good shot at keeping the final spy off the last two missions. Why do you think the last mission was so easy to get a team agreed upon but it still passed? Spies don't want that unless they get something out of it.

But if they pass and are trusted they can easily fail two of the next three missions.

Anyway, can you elaborate on how they would go about doing this bolded part?

Honestly all the plot powers seem not so useful. If we do M2 with myself/t1mm/Angua/extra, KACEOY is basically worthless on this mission with 3 resistance, since derp I wonder who failed!?

You where prepared to walk right into it. When M2 failed you'd blame "extra" and then keep You, Angua, and t1mm and a new extra, then mission fails again, oops, gameover. Spy-t1mm is in a much better position after passing M1 then he would be if he failed it while under the spotlight. Actually if he had failed it under the spotlight I would be very worried about you and Angua as the naive assumption would be that you two must be resistance and that could be dangerous.

[rigwarl]

Obviously, I'd much rather keep t1mm (and Lataro) completely off the mission. Failling this mission would out two spies, but it would also leave us with no fails left and two unkown spies. Also your forgetting about plant the evidence. If the spies have PtE they haven't had any reason to use it yet since both investigations have been in spy hands so far. I'd like, Angua, Rig, (2xnew guy), and Angua uses KACEOY on one of the new guys randomly decided by her. That lowers the chance of a spy power being useful to only 25%. If we pass the mission we do it again and win the game, if we fail we know a third spy 75% and have a good shot at keeping the final spy off the last two missions. Why do you think the last mission was so easy to get a team agreed upon but it still passed? Spies don't want that unless they get something out of it.

SS is also possible, so the chances are actually pretty much the same I think of a spy power being useful (if you assume t1mm spy)?

Regarding the accept votes, I wasn't totally sure which is why I asked about it, but I was under the impression that voting reject would be super suspicious. Maybe this is too naive, I don't know.

You where prepared to walk right into it.

Yes, my mistake, you are correct that KACEOY is not as useless as I thought. By the way, anyone reading my previous posts about "needing to catch all 4 spies", I thought the missions were 34556 and not 34455, so just ignore that part.

[t1mm01994]

So, I'm being accused of being "obviously" scum. Awesome!
BF, reason I think you're scum:
You were on M4. I trust Lataro (will go over that later), which leaves 2 spies from the 3 of GoP, silk, and you. I've said many times that I don't /really/ care who is scum there.
Apart from that, I think that there was some strangeness around you getting ITS. Adam rejected the mission as "he was sure you'd fail the mission", then proceeds to give a plotpower to you.

Me trusting Lataro is the following: I've done some background checking on him and he appears to be far more cranky when he's town. Then again, would you point out where I used this, or where I even pushed for Lataro to be on /anything/, or receive any plotpower?

Alright, so I'm about 100% sure t1mm and Lataro are spies. Our only confirmation that t1mm is resistance comes from Lataro, but he doesn't need a well placed plot power to just lie about his original KACEOY result. If we put t1mm on this next mission and it fails and we assume that it was the 4th who failed it and still put t1mm on the last team then town loses. This is the spy plan. Look at the vote results for last mission. Everyone except infinia passed, which means the spies wanted that mission team.

Or it means that the spies would not want to reject a 3rd mission, as rejecting a 3rd mission is about as spyyish as it gets. Seriously, I cannot think of something more outing, other than a spy claim.

Imagine a world in which Lataro is a spy. Spy-Lataro picks out the other spy on M4 to give a pass result to, it's the best move spy-Lataro could make. t1mm confirms Rig and the team that includes t1mm passes M1. Now t1mm goes on every mission for the rest of the game and gets to fail them all. If they have SS they didn't need to use it on M4 so they still have it saved to make t1mm look innocent for all future missions. And if they have Deception then OC will be useless as well as we will have to be blatant about who to give it to, to check t1mm. Convenient that the two people who could check t1mm or Lataro have been labeled as spies by t1mm.

Convenient how Adam distributed Plot Powers to spies, from my PoV. Regardless, "t1mm goes on every mission ever" is a slippery slope argument at best. If you follow my lead (rig/me/ang/tmg/lataro) I'll take the blame on me if the mission fails, because it probably won't.

t1mm is way to confident about things he shouldn't be if he was really resistance. Anyone who plays with infinia knows that he is easy to piss-off, but t1mm is sure that infinia is scum, which pisses infinia off, which "proves" t1mm is right. And t1mm shouldn't have any reason to trust Lataro. A spy-Lataro could have confirmed resistance-t1mm but t1mm never considers that and just assumes Lataro is resistance. Lataro has said very little this game, and almost none of it helpful, I don't see how t1mm has anything more then a neutral read on him. Also, t1mm has labeled me a spy but not once said any actual reason he suspects me.

I played the exact amount of 1 game with infina, and that was Amy's, and I horribly failed back then. Memory forced away. Lataro is covered above too... But in case you want more on it: Who do you think is more useful, a Lataro with 1 person trusting him or 0 persons?

This exact same thing happened in neighborhood mafia. t1mm put forth a very confident theory that I and mpolo where the scum them when we were actually two of the last three town. Nothing we said could convince MN of our innocence since t1mm spoke first and loudest. All of mpolo and my defenses looked like scum manipulation.

Ah, neighbourhood... Those were the times. Thing is, I faked having a read there, and I actually have a read here. I pulled a similar stunt in Hogwarts... but doesn't mean I'm scum here. I've simply seen very little to contradict my hypothesis.
Anyway, my recommendation for powers is absolutely do not give NC to t1mm or Lataro. With NC in their hands they can guarantee fail a mission as Lataro will the the 3rd mission leader and pick any team he wants. I'd give KACEOY (and NC) to Angua. OM is corner case useful at best but I think it's better on a spy, so Lataro or t1mm I guess. Spies probably already have ways to coordinate votes if they want to, we don't want to give them more info about resistance votes.

Agreed, Angua can have all the plot powers she wants. OM, well... I don't particularly mind getting it, but I think you'll understand that I'd rather have it on one of you guys much in the same way you want it on me.

[t1mm01994]

EBWOP: Added a quote in the wrong place. The real ending of that post should be
Ah, neighbourhood... Those were the times. Thing is, I faked having a read there, and I actually have a read here. I pulled a similar stunt in Hogwarts... but doesn't mean I'm scum here. I've simply seen very little to contradict my hypothesis, and as such I'm sure of it.

Anyway, my recommendation for powers is absolutely do not give NC to t1mm or Lataro. With NC in their hands they can guarantee fail a mission as Lataro will the the 3rd mission leader and pick any team he wants. I'd give KACEOY (and NC) to Angua. OM is corner case useful at best but I think it's better on a spy, so Lataro or t1mm I guess. Spies probably already have ways to coordinate votes if they want to, we don't want to give them more info about resistance votes.

Agreed, Angua can have all the plot powers she wants. OM, well... I don't particularly mind getting it, but I think you'll understand that I'd rather have it on one of you guys much in the same way you want it on me.

[BoomFrog]

Then again, would you point out where I used this, or where I even pushed for Lataro to be on /anything/, or receive any plotpower?

If you follow my lead (rig/me/ang/tmg/lataro) I'll take the blame on me if the mission fails, because it probably won't.

Wow... My point was going to be that we will eventually need to trust someone from the failed M4 and you have been pushing for us to trust Lataro more and me less out of the four who went. The point is, you actually have no reason to trust him, but for some reason you do.

You were on M4. I trust Lataro (will go over that later), which leaves 2 spies from the 3 of GoP, silk, and you. I've said many times that I don't /really/ care who is scum there.

You've frequently off-handedly stated that you'd pick Silknor over me multiple times, I'd dig up the quote but I don't want this to turn into a quote sniping war.

About infinia, you said you think he is a spy because he got angry, and I'm saying infinia getting anrgy isn't a scumtell. And seriously, with only 3 rejections NC is an amazing scum power and spy-infinia wasting it would be a super dumb move. Not that is was a great most for resistance-infinia either.

[Adam H]

Adam H can you clarify why you wouldn't want myself, t1mm, or Angua on the team after we're basically confirmed resistance (spies would have to be insane not to fail last mission, as it would leave 3 unknown spies- 4 even if not t1mm, since you guys wouldn't even know if it was me or Angua- to detect by M5 and pretty much seal a victory).

Spies would have been crazy to fail the last mission. Especially if t1mm and either you or angua are spies as I suspect. If the mission failed, we'd have a clear path to victory. But now since it passed, here's what's going to happen if you have your way: Angua+Rigwarl+T1mm+new guy go on mission, which will fail (or pass if spies are afraid of KACEOY). And we'd go on the same mission after that without KACEOY and it would fail. So we'd suspect new guy or whoever KACEOY was used on, and then go on another mission with Angua+Rigwarl+t1mm+newguy#2+newguy#3, which would fail and we lose.

The right play is for spies to pass the last mission.

Convenient how Adam distributed Plot Powers to spies, from my PoV. Regardless, "t1mm goes on every mission ever" is a slippery slope argument at best. If you follow my lead (rig/me/ang/tmg/lataro) I'll take the blame on me if the mission fails, because it probably won't.

You are just so bad at this, aren't you. First, I distributed the important plot power to YOU. Nice POV you got there, you damn spy. Second, it's "t1mm goes on TWO missions" not "t1mm goes on every mission ever". If lataro fails, you'll take the heat? You are a horrible town player at best, andan obvi-spy at worst. My bet is on obvi-spy.

If t1mm, lataro, and rigwarl/Angua are not 3 of the 4 spies, I would be astounded. Their buddying is incredibly thick and irrational.

You literally cannot use your plan of rejecting anything with me, t1mm, or infina on it, since we are the next 3 mission leaders so one of us will pretty much definitely be on the next mission.

I'll accept if I have no choice. Stop it with the strawmen, seriously.

[rigwarl]

You literally cannot use your plan of rejecting anything with me, t1mm, or infina on it, since we are the next 3 mission leaders so one of us will pretty much definitely be on the next mission.

I'll accept if I have no choice. Stop it with the strawmen, seriously.

I So can you clarify your plan if that isn't right then? Because based on WHAT YOU WROTE, you're saying: if I propose a mission with myself on it, you want to see it rejected. t1mm proposes a mission with himself on it, you want it rejected too. Is this true? If so, then you're basically saying you want to let _infina_ propose whatever team he wants that every single player must accept. This plan seems a bit strange to me, but please explain how this is beneficial to resistance.

[Adam H]

Angua analysis:
-Thinks Adam is scummy, wants t1mm to use strong leader. Seems to understand how NC could be bad in spies hands. Suggests Angua, rigwarl, and one other. Slightly scummy – she understands how spies can abuse NC, which might indicate that she was told how to use it in spy chat. Weak link with t1mm/infina/lataro (strong leader suggestion). Link with rigwarl.

Umm.. She is scummy because she warns people to be cautious about spreading NC? Me no understands.

She didn't warn anything, she just says "it's interesting that Adam HJ is leader and we have NC." and leaves it at that. She's obviously not thinking through how NC is harmful, she already knows how it's bad.

-Will accept any team without Adam on it. Slightly scummy. She’d accept a GoP+Silknor+Lataro team?

This had been explained later on.

The explanation makes it worse than I thought. She TOLD everyone that she'd automatically accept a GOP+Silknor+Lataro team, and we knew we could trust it.

-Doesn’t trust rigwarl, tells infina not to reject mission because they’ll lose. Scummy - she seems to know infina is town.[/spoiler]

What. No, but seriously, just what.

So, I'm thinking (assuming everyone is ok with mission 1) that we do me, t1mm and one other. Maybe boomfrog?

What does everyone else think?

I will again reject a mission with t1mm on it. At this point in time I would feel better if Lataro was on it instead of t1mm.

I'm pretty sure that if you reject the mission, we lose it anyway.

I'm not sure how much I trust rigwarl. I'll go for it if others think it's best though.

This is, appearantly, a "scummy" post, because she seems to know that infina is town. Adam, could you indicate /where/ she indicates infina is town? She's pretty sure that if he rejects the mission [and scum follows], we [she and other townies, I think she meant to say there] lose it anyway. I.. Don't see why she's scummy, to be fair.

Um. You say it yourself. Do you agree that if infina rejected the mission, and scum followed, then that's 5 rejections? Cause that means infina is town.

So can you clarify your plan if that isn't right then? Because based on WHAT YOU WROTE, you're saying: if I propose a mission with myself on it, you want to see it rejected. t1mm proposes a mission with himself on it, you want it rejected too. Is this true? If so, then you're basically saying you want to let _infina_ propose whatever team he wants that every single player must accept. This plan seems a bit strange to me, but please explain how this is beneficial to resistance.

At this point in time, I plan on rejecting every mission with rigwarl, t1mm, and infina in it. This may change depending on if the missions get rejected. For instance, if a mission is surprisingly rejected then that indicates that spies did not like the mission team. And if it is accepted then it doesn't matter what I vote.

[rigwarl]

Thanks for the clarification. Whelp, the next mission will 100% fit that criteria.

[rigwarl]

Er wait, you just said "and". Did you mean "or", or did you change your mind?

[Adam H]

Uh... no, I meant or. If just one of them is on the this next team, I'm rejecting it. Unless I get some assurances that KACEOY will be used on that one - I suppose I could live with that.

[rigwarl]

Adam H can you clarify why you wouldn't want myself, t1mm, or Angua on the team after we're basically confirmed resistance (spies would have to be insane not to fail last mission, as it would leave 3 unknown spies- 4 even if not t1mm, since you guys wouldn't even know if it was me or Angua- to detect by M5 and pretty much seal a victory).

Spies would have been crazy to fail the last mission. Especially if t1mm and either you or angua are spies as I suspect. If the mission failed, we'd have a clear path to victory. But now since it passed, here's what's going to happen if you have your way: Angua+Rigwarl+T1mm+new guy go on mission, which will fail (or pass if spies are afraid of KACEOY). And we'd go on the same mission after that without KACEOY and it would fail. So we'd suspect new guy or whoever KACEOY was used on, and then go on another mission with Angua+Rigwarl+t1mm+newguy#2+newguy#3, which would fail and we lose.

The right play is for spies to pass the last mission.

I actually was super-confused for awhile why you thought not failing last mission as either myself or Angua was even remotely smart. However after re-reading several times, I think you didn't realize there are only 2 more failures needed for spies to win (would only be 1 if last mission was failed). So yea, hopefully you agree now that Angua/myself are like 99.9% resistance (does anyone else question this?)

[Angua]

OK,

Angua analysis:
-Thinks Adam is scummy, wants t1mm to use strong leader. Seems to understand how NC could be bad in spies hands. Suggests Angua, rigwarl, and one other. Slightly scummy – she understands how spies can abuse NC, which might indicate that she was told how to use it in spy chat. Weak link with t1mm/infina/lataro (strong leader suggestion). Link with rigwarl.

Umm.. She is scummy because she warns people to be cautious about spreading NC? Me no understands.

She didn't warn anything, she just says "it's interesting that Adam HJ is leader and we have NC." and leaves it at that. She's obviously not thinking through how NC is harmful, she already knows how it's bad.

Here I was just saying that I thought it would be interesting if we got the no confidence power because the mission leader was a spy. At the time I didn't realise that rejecting a mission lead to the next person in line being leader.

-Will accept any team without Adam on it. Slightly scummy. She’d accept a GoP+Silknor+Lataro team?

This had been explained later on.

The explanation makes it worse than I thought. She TOLD everyone that she'd automatically accept a GOP+Silknor+Lataro team, and we knew we could trust it.

Not sure how this is a bad thing - I assumed that we'd have a fairly rational team, and that as Adam H was team leader, I was going to reject the mission out of hand. Why would someone make a GOP-Silknor-Lataro team?

Anyway, I want to apologise for the somewhat hasty day's end - I got confused with which day was tomorrow (I thought it was Thursday when it was Wednesday) so I thought the deadline would come up before I woke up. It's been a hectic week is all I can say.

I can see why people are wary of us going down the 'this team passed the mission, so let's just keep using it' route, however, I'm not really sure how we are supposed to figure out who else to trust. Even if we use different people, we're going to run into the same problem later on.

Also, I wouldn't automatically assume infina is town just because Adam H said they would fail a mission with them on it. I still don't see why infina would have risked 3rd mission rejection if they were town.

[t1mm01994]

If t1mm, lataro, and rigwarl/Angua are not 3 of the 4 spies, I would be astounded. Their buddying is incredibly thick and irrational.

At this point in time, I plan on rejecting every mission with rigwarl, t1mm, and infina in it. This may change depending on if the missions get rejected. For instance, if a mission is surprisingly rejected then that indicates that spies did not like the mission team. And if it is accepted then it doesn't matter what I vote.

So, adding those, we have that Adam's scum team atm is me, Lataro, rig/ang, and infina. Why I'm frontally attacking infina and we are both scum is unaccounted for, but that's all good. Why infina is refusing any team with me on it, while we are both spies, is unaccounted for, but it's all good. I could go on for a while.
Apart from that, lol@the PoV thing. But to be honest, I wouldn't really call OC > NC.. Plus giving NC and SL to 1 player is a horrible, horrible idea regardless. If it's 2 missions that I fail, then after that resistance has lost and it was every mission ever, amirite? Okay, nice. Now, if we could stop ad hominemming... Thanks.

@me + Lataro: 1: He cleared me. He gave me the freedom to pull a trick, for that, I am happy.
2: He seems like good ol' grumpy Lataro. If he's scum is generally meaner, now he's just [grmbl] can't force anything to happen [/grmbl]
3: Would you rather see a happy Lataro or an unhappy Lataro, in both spy and res? If he's unhappy, he's a mean spy, and not the best res player either. If he's happy, he's less mean a spy to the ones he's happy about, and a way better res player. Even if I did not actually trust him, me putting him on the trusted list would be a good move for res. This unlike infina's random flame at him after I pulled my little trick.
4: I insisted on keeping him off the mission, even though he's still on my trusteelist, and won't be heading off that list soon. I told you to keep me off the mission as well a couple of times, because I'm generally untrusted.

BF, I'd agree though, I /would/ pick Silk (or GoP, for that matter) over you any day, because you have quite some connection to Adam, and I think Adam is spy. Of course, as you think I'm spy, you will just ignore this and go on with the daily life.
Just wondering, how is it a good move for town infina to use NC there, and not add anything to the discussion about why you did it? Just saying "I don't trust him" won't turn any heads soon...

[Adam H]

I actually was super-confused for awhile why you thought not failing last mission as either myself or Angua was even remotely smart. However after re-reading several times, I think you didn't realize there are only 2 more failures needed for spies to win (would only be 1 if last mission was failed). So yea, hopefully you agree now that Angua/myself are like 99.9% resistance (does anyone else question this?)

No. I think if the last mission had failed, we would win because we'd leave off angua, rigwarl, t1mm, and lataro from this upcoming mission.

I couldn't care less what you think, as long as GoP, TMG, and Silknor play this right. You are making me more and more sure I've got this figured out with every post you make.

[rigwarl]

Adam H, let me get this straight- you are saying that, if you were a resistance member, you would have liked it if Mission 1 failed because it is worse for you if spies pass it. Is that correct?

[webby]

Plot powers have been distributed.

[Adam H]

Adam H, let me get this straight- you are saying that, if you were a resistance member, you would have liked it if Mission 1 failed because it is worse for you if spies pass it. Is that correct?

Yup, that's the way it looks to me.

Since it did pass, I could be completely wrong about who the spies are. And since you and t1mm are the next leaders up, it looks likely that one of you will be on the next team. But if it failed, we'd go straight to infina, and I think we'd win.