0029: "Hitler"

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0029: "Hitler"

Postby @maniexx » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:26 pm UTC

Image
Alt text: "So he's saying that God thought Hitler's art was so bad that the Holocaust was an acceptable alternative. It's no secret that the hat guy is closely based on Aram, from Men in Hats."
How come there's no thread for this comic? It's my favourite from the early ones!

The alt-text kindda sucks, though, or I'm just not getting something.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby atrahasis » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:52 pm UTC

My guess would be it's because any such thread must end as soon as it begins due to (a misapplication of) Godwin's Law.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby @maniexx » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:19 pm UTC

Seriously, this godwin guy was worse than hitler. Hitler only killed jews, while Godwin has killed thousands of innocent discussions.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby project2051 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:33 pm UTC

How come every time we have a nice civil discussion about Nazis someone always eventually has to bring up Godwin.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Shakleton » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:04 pm UTC

project2051 wrote:How come every time we have a nice civil discussion about Nazis someone always eventually has to bring up Godwin.

Thanks to that bit I now have tea all over my monitor. Damn you, you funny bastard. :wink:
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby ConMan » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:46 am UTC

@maniexx wrote:Alt text: "So he's saying that God thought Hitler's art was so bad that the Holocaust was an acceptable alternative. It's no secret that the hat guy is closely based on Aram, from Men in Hats."
How come there's no thread for this comic? It's my favourite from the early ones!

The alt-text kindda sucks, though, or I'm just not getting something.

For most of the very early comics, the title text is used more by Randall as a way of commenting on the comic or explaining a detail. It was only later that it started becoming the location for a secondary joke.

Also, I'm pretty sure the sub-clause of Godwin's Law applies, meaning that we're allowed to talk about Nazis since they're what the discussion is actually about.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Editer » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:11 pm UTC

Yeah, Godwin's Law doesn't say the discussion has to end, just that what'shisname becomes more and more likely to appear.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby AvatarIII » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:27 pm UTC

project2051 wrote:How come every time we have a nice civil discussion about Nazis someone always eventually has to bring up Godwin.


Is Hitler's law that every online discussion will inevitably end up mentioning Godwin's law?
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Sean Quixote » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:47 am UTC

Actually, it's named after some other guy. Figures.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby RaceBandit » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:32 am UTC

atrahasis wrote:My guess would be it's because any such thread must end as soon as it begins due to (a misapplication of) Godwin's Law.
My question is this: If the person that compares someone to Hitler and/or the Nazis is the one that loses, and Godwin's Law gets applied to the comic itself, then when Munroe loses, who's on the winning side of the argument?

Come to think about it, if this thread were to have been locked immediately, what would the winning argument have been?

Maybe... maybe the War Games AI was right. Maybe Godwin's Law is like... well, twenty dollars and the meta's self-respect.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby addams » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:50 am UTC

Maybe, Godwin wanted us to think before, during and after.

What he got was a new way to end a conversation.

Hitler=Conversation Over; It does not have to be that way.
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Hijacked by Godwin

Postby RaceBandit » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:52 am UTC

Given the nature of this thread, the "after" part may be proving to be the easiest, and I'm sorta glad Quirk's Exception (Attempts to stop an argument by intentionally invoking Godwin's Law don't count.) exists.
This definitely seems to be quite a distraction from the comic itself, though...

I don't suppose Hitler's art would've eventually improved if the art schools had accepted him, would they?
The alt text also makes me think God dropped the ball here... If God were to think the Holocaust were an acceptable alternative, I'm not sure I want to know what Hitler's art would've sparked. Would he have done anti-Jewish propaganda that ended up causing a bigger, more widespread holocaust? If so, I'm... a bit scared.

I'm really starting to doubt that God would've known the Holocaust was coming. If they did see it as a possibility, they probably would've smitten him with cancer or something unless the Jews spared by the Holocaust were to spark something worse.

(rereads last sentence)

I'm gonna shut up before we get [deeper] into nightmare fuel territory.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby carega » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:33 am UTC

@maniexx wrote:Seriously, this godwin guy was worse than hitler. Hitler only killed jews, while Godwin has killed thousands of innocent discussions.


This. This. however ironic it may seem, it's a really frightening thought. And nobody noticed it?
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby rpgamer » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:37 am UTC

addams wrote:Maybe, Godwin wanted us to think before, during and after.

What he got was a new way to end a conversation.

Hitler=Conversation Over; It does not have to be that way.

I don't think Godwin's Law says that the conversation has to be over when Hitler is mentioned. It just turns into a discussion of Godwin's Law.
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Re: Hijacked by Godwin

Postby Antior » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:33 am UTC

RaceBandit wrote:Given the nature of this thread, the "after" part may be proving to be the easiest, and I'm sorta glad Quirk's Exception (Attempts to stop an argument by intentionally invoking Godwin's Law don't count.) exists.
This definitely seems to be quite a distraction from the comic itself, though...

I don't suppose Hitler's art would've eventually improved if the art schools had accepted him, would they?
The alt text also makes me think God dropped the ball here... If God were to think the Holocaust were an acceptable alternative, I'm not sure I want to know what Hitler's art would've sparked. Would he have done anti-Jewish propaganda that ended up causing a bigger, more widespread holocaust? If so, I'm... a bit scared.

I'm really starting to doubt that God would've known the Holocaust was coming. If they did see it as a possibility, they probably would've smitten him with cancer or something unless the Jews spared by the Holocaust were to spark something worse.

(rereads last sentence)

I'm gonna shut up before we get [deeper] into nightmare fuel territory.


Yes. Any answer to the question 'why does god let terrible things happen' get weirder and weirder the more you think about it. It doesn't make sense at all and just stopping to think and assuming god knows what he's doing doesn't solve the paradox. You know what they say: God is [all-knowing,all-powerful,all-loving] (choose two).

Oh well, I'm glad to be an atheist. I don't have to trouble myself with that kind of paradoxes.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby ekolis » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:25 pm UTC

@maniexx wrote:Seriously, this godwin guy was worse than hitler. Hitler only killed jews, while Godwin has killed thousands of innocent discussions.


I agree - if we're not allowed to talk about Hitler, then how are we supposed to remember him? And if we forget about him, then since those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, we'll wind up with another Hitler!

Oh, wait... I think I am the next Hitler! Now since calling someone Hitler makes you lose the argument, calling yourself Hitler should make you win, right? WAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Reading posts on the xkcd forum makes me feel stupid.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Weeks » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:53 am UTC

You have killed the conversation, not by mentioning Hitler or Godwin, but by being an immense ball of awkward.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby San Fran Sam » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:24 am UTC

Hitler -- The Original He Who Must Not Be Named.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby theknownuniverse » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:07 am UTC

It's reverse Godwin's law: as any discussion pertaining to Nazis of the Third Reich continues, the probability of mentioning Godwin or his law approaches 1.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby ekolis » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:10 am UTC

What about the Fourth Reich? Does that cause the probability to increase to 1.3333333?
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Diadem » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:13 pm UTC

What the heck is a Third Reich anyway? It should be "Third Empire" or "Drittes Reich". Third Reich makes no fucking sense.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby zmic » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:49 am UTC

the joke doesn't work because Hitler was actually rather talented
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Weeks » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:06 pm UTC

...at genocide!
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby zmic » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:07 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:...at genocide!


no I meant as an artist
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:50 pm UTC

For example,
http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/hitlerpaintings.htm wrote:Hitler often claimed to be something of a frustrated artist, and art was certainly one of his major interests throughout his life. He probably sold several thousand paintings and postcards during his stay in Vienna, some of which turn up even today. Hitler himself made no great claims to greatness as a painter (architecture was something else....). There was a thriving market for his paintings during the Third Reich — and even today, there are eager collectors.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby addams » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:19 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:For example,
http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/hitlerpaintings.htm wrote:Hitler often claimed to be something of a frustrated artist, and art was certainly one of his major interests throughout his life. He probably sold several thousand paintings and postcards during his stay in Vienna, some of which turn up even today. Hitler himself made no great claims to greatness as a painter (architecture was something else....). There was a thriving market for his paintings during the Third Reich — and even today, there are eager collectors.


Oh my God. He wasn't awful. If, that really was his work.

How does it happen? How does the creative muse and the sociopath exist in the same mind? How?
Like a sensitive person, like me, can not create a drawing that looks like a photo.

Still; I had heard rumors. That link was the first time that I have ever been exposed to his style.

He should have stuck with Art.
Edit: O.K. I did some reading. He quit doing art when he became a sociopath. The creative muse left him.
Long story:
Spoiler:
I got on the wrong side of the wrong people in lots of different ways.
Bruce Burg sold antiques and I think he is a jerk.

We had been quite friendly until one day he was showing me his newest, best find.
Oh me yarm. It was a crystal drink set with the swastika etched into it.

It was of the finest quality. When I saw it, I gasped.
I asked, "What are you going to do with it?"
He said that he was haggling with collectors.
We had quite an animated discussion.

Umm. I think that those things belong to all of us. Those things should be in museums.
They are like the artifacts from the American lynchings.
They should not be destroyed. Those things are important to help us to remember and to be better. Right? To remember that there was lush splendor and rich sophistication at the disposal of the decision makers, while the people were being impoverished.

It is one part of a complex story. We need all the parts that we can get, to better understand. Right? Well; He disagreed with me.

I think that it got all political. I don't understand the politics.
The man was fussing that I was attempting to rob him of his ability to make money.
That is NOT what I was suggesting. A museum has money to pay for that kind of thing.
It is important to not hide those things in private collections. ewww.

Oh well. It was an amazing set. The quality was excellent. Each glass rang like a bell.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Red Hal » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:04 pm UTC

addams wrote: To remember that there was lush splendor and rich sophistication at the disposal of the decision makers, while the people were being impoverished.
And that is different from where? When? We don't need to remember it because it is happening around us right now. What we need to do is to make it a distant memory so that we can have the luxury of remembering it so as not to forget the lessons.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby addams » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:48 pm UTC

Red Hal wrote:
addams wrote: To remember that there was lush splendor and rich sophistication at the disposal of the decision makers, while the people were being impoverished.
And that is different from where? When? We don't need to remember it because it is happening around us right now. What we need to do is to make it a distant memory so that we can have the luxury of remembering it so as not to forget the lessons.


Your right; I think.
Somehow, the lessons have been forgotten or never learned.

It is the same old story. We can do better. The suffering in the world is too much.
What we are seeing in the world today is too much suffering and too much ignorance.
Damn. Those two seem to go together.

For the living some suffering is unavoidable. But, jeeze, What can I do to help?
I seem to be part of the problem not part of the solution.

The intellectual elite do have something to offer, but, the common people have become convinced that no one can know more than they do. I have had them tell me so. These are people that do not know very much.
What would the intellectual elite say?
"Reach out a hand.
Make it the hand of the Nanny State."
??

When given a choice between the Nanny State and the Police State. I would choose the Nanny State with Police back up. Not the Police State with Nannies running for their lives.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:57 am UTC

Suddenly I have an idea for some kind of alternate history fic where e.g. Dali or Picasso was a genocidal dictator or otherwise notorious horrible monster whose regime is now synonymous with unabashed evil, and Hitler is a famous painter studied in any course on 20th century art history.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Mambrino » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:23 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Suddenly I have an idea for some kind of alternate history fic where e.g. Dali or Picasso Gaudi or Mies van der Rohe was a genocidal dictator or otherwise notorious horrible monster whose regime is now synonymous with unabashed evil, and Hitler is a famous painter architect studied in any course on 20th century art history.


Would be more believable this way, I think.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby addams » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:17 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Suddenly I have a idea for some kind of alternate history fic where e.g. Dali or Picasso was a genocidal dictator or otherwise notorious horrible monster whose regime is now synonymous with unabashed evil, and Hitler is a famous painter studied in any course on 20th century art history.

In an all things are possible Milti Universe view. That happened.
Things would be different.
Divergence. Reality Splits and Splits again and again, Like a chemical or physical reaction.
Why not? Picasso did not become a sociopath. His aim was to be Picasso.
It took me a long time to study Picasso. I don't like cubism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Picasso

River of Words:
Spoiled for extremely Off Topic:
What is the Topic? Hitler Goes to the Zoo? O.K.!

It is now the Pacasso Thread:
Spoiler:
My favorite image of him was drawn by the hand of Salvador Dali.
I wonder if the internet has it? Nope. But; It has the following.

http://www.google.com/search?q=pablo+pi ... 53&bih=368
The very first photo in that link is a good one. The first photo in the link captured some of the same intensity that Dali captured.
What I know about Picasso in one sentence. He lived well and died happy.

We should all be so fortunate. He was Loved and understood by many.
I still would not choose that picture of the Face with one Big eye and One little eye as an example of Great Art; It is so funny. Strange Face. I still don't get it.

Some people do. You could get used to a face like that if the person was nice. Right?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.
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Re: 0029: Hitler

Postby Red Hal » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:37 am UTC

addams wrote:
Red Hal wrote:
addams wrote: To remember that there was lush splendor and rich sophistication at the disposal of the decision makers, while the people were being impoverished.
And that is different from where? When? We don't need to remember it because it is happening around us right now. What we need to do is to make it a distant memory so that we will have the luxury of remembering it so as not to forget the lessons.


Your right; I think.
Somehow, the lessons have been forgotten or never learned.

It is the same old story. We will do better. The suffering in A Galaxy Far Far Away is too much.
What we are seeing in A Galaxy Far Far Away today is too much suffering and too much ignorance.
Damn. Those two seem to go together.

For the living some suffering is unavoidable. But, jeeze, What will I do to help?
I seem to be part of the problem not part of the solution.

The intellectual elite do have something to offer, but, the common people have become convinced that no one will know more than they do. I have had them tell me so. These are people that do not know very much.
What would the intellectual elite spray?
"Reach out a foot.
Make it the foot of the Nanny State."
??

When given a choice between the Nanny State and the Police State. I would choose the Nanny State with Police back up. Not the Police State with Nannies running for their lives.
Your final statement. I have sigged it because it makes sense.

On edit because I missed the unwarranted self-flagellation. It is important to remember that it is perfectly possible to be part of neither the problem nor the solution but merely to just be.
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Re: 0029: "Hitler"

Postby clockworkbookreader » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:14 pm UTC

Yes, AH's artwork didn't suck. It was very pedestrian, though. If you walk through Paris, there are 'artists' on every streetcorner who can sell you something better that they sell right in front of you.

Of course, if H had won, then all those gypsies would be dead.
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Re: 0029: "Hitler"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:42 am UTC

So THAT was the plan all along...
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Re: 0029: "Hitler"

Postby SirMustapha » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:31 pm UTC

It's interesting to read this very early comic a little more deeply. Isn't it bizarre how Randall straight out explains the joke on the alt text? He could have shortened it straight to "It's no secret that hat guy is based etc." and there would be no loss in comprehension.

On the other hand, I find the hat guy "character" much more appealing as "unexpectedly unpleasant" rather than "LOL RANDOM SHENANIGANS THAT RANDALL HAS NO COURAGE TO PULL OFF IN REAL LIFE".
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Re: 0029: "Hitler"

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:50 pm UTC

SirMustapha wrote:It's interesting to read this very early comic a little more deeply. Isn't it bizarre how Randall straight out explains the joke on the alt text? He could have shortened it straight to "It's no secret that hat guy is based etc." and there would be no loss in comprehension.
Indeed, but as ConMan said, he used to use the alt-text as a way to comment on or explain his comics, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here. Not that the comic gains anything in particular with such commentary, but yeah.
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Re: 0029: "Hitler"

Postby SirMustapha » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:00 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Indeed, but as ConMan said, he used to use the alt-text as a way to comment on or explain his comics, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here. Not that the comic gains anything in particular with such commentary, but yeah.


I failed to elaborate this point, but this comic dates back from the time Randall didn't have the intention of being a "Webcomic Artist", and xkcd was more of a "here's a little something I did" thing; so explaining the joke wasn't really that dire, though it is unacceptable for an actual comic artist.
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Re: 0029: "Hitler"

Postby JesseScottOwen » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:23 am UTC

I want a law named after me. Like Godwin's Law, or Poe's Law.

Maybe Owen's Law will be, "Any person who has been a member of a interweb forum longer then you have been a member of the forum is smarter and better than you, and gets to win. EVERYTHING."

Oh, and: Hitler.
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Re: 0029: "Hitler"

Postby Red Hal » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:20 pm UTC

JesseScottOwen wrote:I want a law named after me. Like Godwin's Law, or Poe's Law.

Maybe Owen's Law will be, "Any person who has been a member of a interweb forum longer then you have been a member of the forum is smarter and better than you, and gets to win. EVERYTHING."

Oh, and: Hitler.
Actually, given what you just wrote may I propose: "Post count does not correlate with intelligence or worth as a human being."
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Re: 0029: "Hitler"

Postby project2051 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:30 pm UTC

You can see it coming in his paintings. The are no happy little trees, if only he had painted a few happy little trees.

You just can't commit genocide when you got happy little trees.
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