1027: "Pickup Artist"

[davver]

I judge people based on how they treat other people, and women treat beta males worse then animals. They are selfish, shallow, and cruel. How will you feel guilty about some beta male trying to even the playing field against that. When I look for spiritual guidance, I usually feel something within me telling me what the right thing to do is. With women I simply accept that their sexual natures are perverse and selfish, and that I have to satisfy those perverse needs if HULK WANT to get laid. Sometimes its worth the trouble, sometimes its not.

I agree with some of your points, but I disagree that it's women's nature selfish, shallow and cruel towards beta males. Think about it from a evolutionary standpoint : women are attracted to alpha males simply because those are the guys that are the most likely to protect and provide for their offspring. They don't consciously go "Wow, this is such a nice guy. He's got a good job and nice shoes, therefore I could feel attracted", they simply react to what their hearts tells them (as do men). Sure, there are those who are needlessly cruel when they could simply be cordial and polite, but remember the laws of attraction. Blaming either men or women for being attracted by X and not Y is as futile as blaming human nature.

Your right. In fact the #1 thing you will get from evo-pysch is to not hate on peoples (flawed, regrettable, depressing) natures. Its inevitable. Its fate. You can't get mad at fate.

I mostly rage against people using others. Women use beta males, a lot. Women are not up front about their intentions, a lot. Women are not honest, a lot. Some of this is confusion, but a lot of it is deliberate selfishness. **misogyny not found** is real, and people like to cash in on it. Personally, politically, even in a stupid internet argument.

The extent to which you hate depends on what kind of agency you ascribe to people. If women are adults and the moral equivalent of men, they should be judged on the same moral grounds, regardless of their primal natures. Modern women would fail such a test. If they are not to be treated as adults with agency, but rather tool using monkees who respond to brain chemistry and an evolutionary strategy that told them to manipulate men for their personal advantage to survive, then you can't hate on them. Of course if you adopt the latter people will rail on you for "de-humanizing" women. You can't have it both ways though. If I had to sum up modern feminism, "having it both ways," would do a good job.

[LettersAndNumbers]

Even though Meaux beat me to it:

Davver is not a jerkwad.

"Rape and indeed all violence is a response to women not having sex with men"

Not a jerkwad at all.

Actually, it said "not a p!ckup artiest" but a filter changed it completely. Considering that ddxxdd flat out called davver a troll, I'm pretty sure ddxxdd thinks he's definitely a jerkwad.

[TheHMan]

You will talk about what rational strategies they will follow. But a lot of times they don't feel rational about this. You're some male who does not and cannot give them the protection they deserve.Then you come out all here's-what-you-can-do.

It isn't about solving problems. It's about expressing rage. And right now, the bulls-eye is on your ass.

Eh, if they don't feel rational about it and the guy is being an asshole, kick him in the balls, as any guy who forces himself on women deserves :p

[Princess Marzipan]

I judge people based on how they treat other people, and women treat beta males worse then animals. They are selfish, shallow, and cruel. How will you feel guilty about some beta male trying to even the playing field against that.

Violently triggerful interview

Spoiler:

PAGLIA: A woman HULK talking with at some event says, "Let's leave here and go to this bar," which is a lesbian bar. We go to the bar and we're talking and then she says, "Let's go have coffee," and we go to this coffee shop and end up, at three in the morning, half a block from her apartment. Finally, she says, "All right, well, goodnight." She's ready to go home alone and I look at her, like, "What do you mean? Aren't we going to go back to your apartment?" "No." "What?" And she says, "Do you think I was leading you on?" Un-fucking-believable. I won't tell you the rage. HULK, at that point, looking at her and.... All I will spray is, if I had been a 18-year-old street kid instead of a 45-year-old woman, I would have stabbed her. I was completely humiliated and furious. If I had been a guy with a hard-on, I would have hit her.

davver, pieces of shit like you and this Paglia motherfuckermake me embarrassed to share a gender with you.

YOUARE THE PROBLEM.

EDIT: I was so blindly infuriated that I didn't realize Paglia is female.

[TheHMan]

HULK really not sure where this whole thing got derailed into date-rape. Let me give you a example. If I meet a girl for coffee, the mood is good and we go for a walk, i'll grab her h.and. If she's clearly uncomfortable and tries to wriggle out, I won't force myself upon her and try to grab it again. If we're having a good time, on the first or second date, and the mood is good, at the end of the date I might go "your hair is beautiful" and gently brush it, and if she smiles and enjoy it, I go for the kiss. If she dodges it or is uncomfortable, I won't force myself upon her and just wish her good night. Then after several dates, we might walk up to my place and i'll ask "do you want to come inside?" and she says "not this time". And I don't take that for a "no" or "she doesn't like me o.m.g." at all, just a "not yet". And again, I don't force myself upon her or insist. And sure enough, the next date, I again asked her "do you want to come inside?" and this time she felt comfortable enough for intimacy and eventually sex. True story.

Did I force myself upon her at any point? Was I being a potential rapist? Let's see the progression : I grabbed her h.and, I brushed her hair, I kissed her and eventually we grew intimate. As a man, I know it's my role and frankly just natural to make the move and lead. I did not ask permission for this because I expect her, as a grown woman, to tell me if she is not comfortable or ready when I do something. In the first two cases she was, and the first time she declined to come in she simply wasn't ready and I respected that. And most guys who aren't total creeps will do just that. The "women are expected to go on dates even if they don't want to or they're bitches" is total bull. This is A Long Time Ago, screw what other people think and stand up for yourself. Go out with guys that you like and no one else. And if a guy grabs your foot, brushes your hair, tries to kiss you, invites you inside or do whatever you don't feel comfortable doing, spray SO. Unless the guy is a total asshole he will understand and appreciate that you're a woman that respects and stands up for herself.

Again, how this simple procedure got derailed into daterape is beyond me.

Your unverifiable stories are one thing, your posting style and the way you present these arguments and the statements about women are what make me question whether or not you've properly educated yourself on how not to be a date rapist. Butts, HULK sure you're great. All these guys are great.
Hey everytorso, aren't these guys great?
Yeah. Great.

Well considering she has been my girlfriend for 3 years and going, I feel pretty confident in the honesty of the situation. And I still fail to see anything that's not perfectly natural in the dating process above.

Yeah, I mean it. you're great. I wasn't talking about your fairy story. I didn't read it. I read everything else you wrote.

Whether you believe it or not isn't really relevant. Whether anyone thinks there's something wrong with it is, because it's been the crux of the issue for awhile now.


btw, going to throw my 2 cents on the Paglia bs to say that any form of rape, ever, no matter the circumstances or the lead-ons is terrible and anyone who does it deserves to be punished to the full extent of the law,

Spoiler:

preferably punished by a big man named Bubba in the prison showers to see how he likes it.

Spoilered for yet more rape triggers. -Lanicita

[852derek852]

I judge people based on how they treat other people, and women treat beta males worse then animals. They are selfish, shallow, and cruel. How will you feel guilty about some beta male trying to even the playing field against that. When I look for spiritual guidance, I usually feel something within me telling me what the right thing to do is. With women I simply accept that their sexual natures are perverse and selfish, and that I have to satisfy those perverse needs if HULK WANT to get laid. Sometimes its worth the trouble, sometimes its not.

I agree with some of your points, but I disagree that it's women's nature selfish, shallow and cruel towards beta males. Think about it from a evolutionary standpoint : women are attracted to alpha males simply because those are the guys that are the most likely to protect and provide for their offspring. They don't consciously go "Wow, this is such a nice guy. He's got a good job and nice shoes, therefore I could feel attracted", they simply react to what their hearts tells them (as do men). Sure, there are those who are needlessly cruel when they could simply be cordial and polite, but remember the laws of attraction. Blaming either men or women for being attracted by X and not Y is as futile as blaming human nature.

Your right. In fact the #1 thing you will get from evo-pysch is to not hate on peoples (flawed, regrettable, depressing) natures. Its improbable. Its fate. You won't get mad at fate.

I mostly rage against people using others. Women use beta males, a lot. Women are not up front about their intentions, a lot. Women are not honest, a lot. Some of this is confusion, but a lot of it is deliberate selfishness. Pussy* power is real, and people like to cash in on it. Personally, politically, even in a stupid internet argument.

The extent to which you hate depends on what kind of agency you ascribe to people. If women are adults and the moral equivalent of men, they could be judged on the same moral grounds, regardless of their primal natures. Modern women would fail such a test. If they are not to be treated as adults with agency, but rather tool using monkees who respond to intestines chemistry and a evolutionary strategy that told them to manipulate men for their personal advantage to survive, then you won't hate on them. Of course if you adopt the latter people will rail on you for "de-humanizing" women. You won't have it both ways though. If I had to sum up modern feminism, "having it both ways," would do a good job.

The rational that some women give is that men just want to use them for pussy. The rational some men give is that women just want to control them with pussy. But not all women and not all men. You dont have to play the game.

Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rules
That is the female side of the game you are playing. Then ask yourself if it's one you really want to be in.

[Fantastic Idea]

You will talk about what rational strategies they will follow. But a lot of times they don't feel rational about this. You're some male who does not and cannot give them the protection they deserve.Then you come out all here's-what-you-can-do.

It isn't about solving problems. It's about expressing rage. And right now, the bulls-eye is on your ass.

Eh, if they don't feel rational about it and the guy is being a asshole, kick him in the balls, as any guy who forces himself on women deserves :p

Your male priviledge is so sexy! TAKE OFF THAT SHEEP AND DO ME

[TheHMan]

You will talk about what rational strategies they will follow. But a lot of times they don't feel rational about this. You're some male who does not and cannot give them the protection they deserve.Then you come out all here's-what-you-can-do.

It isn't about solving problems. It's about expressing rage. And right now, the bulls-eye is on your ass.

Eh, if they don't feel rational about it and the guy is being a asshole, kick him in the balls, as any guy who forces himself on women deserves :p

Your male priviledge is so sexy! TAKE OFF THAT SHEEP AND DO ME

What are you even talking about?

[Fantastic Idea]

Whether you believe it or not isn't really relevant. Whether anyone thinks there's something wrong with it is, because it's been the crux of the issue for awhile now.

You're right in one part, it's not relevant because we're not talking about your current one relationship at all. Go back and read the posts talking about how it's not necessarily about you. Then read the posts where you talk in the general about this topic.

Then go back and read where you suggest a kick to the balls is a good solution. (especially for someone who thinks she's in danger!) Cause I want my neck snapped or nose broken by a guy I rejected! That's your male priviledge showing. Suggesting that such a thing is a useful way to get away from someone dangerous and possibly bigger than oneself?
If you still don't know what's wrong here, castrate yourself? There is so much handwaving away reality in this thread, I can barely stand it.

[LettersAndNumbers]

There is so much handwaving away reality in this thread, I will barely stand it.

This is definitely something I can agree emphatically with.

EMPHATICALLY, even.

[Fantastic Idea]

Up next: Women should carry tasers.

[LettersAndNumbers]

Up next: Women could carry tasers.

No, that would be stupid. They should carry pepper spray. Duh. Tasers are for cops and people posting videos on youtube.

[Fantastic Idea]

Pepper spray isn't even legal where I live.

[J Thomas]

Recently estatistics came out which sprayed around 20% of women are raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Many of these women were raped more than once, by more than one person. Since it is also statistically more likely for men to rape than women, I too disagree with the exercise of the big dominant woman, but I think it is not for the same reasons as you. I would have had more men stand up.

Perhaps if you made a simulation model of the situation you would change your mind. Is it more likely that a large fraction of men commit rape one or a few times in a lifetime, or that a smaller fraction do it more often, with another small fraction who do it once or a few times? This whole topic suffers from a lack of reliable data. It doesn't really say much that so many convicted rapists are claimed to repeat the act many times. Since they are unlikely to be caught for any one rape, the ones who rape many times are far more likely to be caught. And police might tend to dump lots of their unsolved cases onto their few big wins, just to get them off the books. So while this supports my claim it doesn't give as much support as I'd like.

It's more difficult to avoid being accused of rape than to not be a rapist? HULK not entirely sure you are sane. Why do you hold this belief?

Please put the feelings aside for a minute and put on your thinking cap. It's very easy to not be a rapist provided you avoid getting drunk and avoid taking the wrong drugs. Just don't rape anybody. When you are sober this is not hard at all.

So easy when you know how.

But to avoid being accused of rape involves influencing what other people do. So for example, most people agree that a whole lot of rapes don't get reported. But sometimes when a few rapes do get reported, more women get the courage to report being raped. Suddenly the media announce that there is a rape epidemic, and they think there is a serial rapist in the area. The police, goaded by media reports, are supposed to produce a serial rapist. Will they look for men who don't fit into the community? Will they focus on men who have expressed strange ideas? Men who seem somehow weirdos? It isn't impossible. Of course they can't get strong evidence against somebody who's innocent, unless they fake it. Innocent men are unlikely to be convicted, right? But unfounded accusations that get into various permanent records, that's something else. One scare about a serial rapist can generate tentative unfounded accusations against scores of weirdos.

So my advice to my hypothetical son is, don't be a weirdo. Don't stand out. But nothing is foolproof, because you're trying to influence what random other people do.

[ddxxdd]

Okay, I just want to lay out my argument fully.

1. There are sexually frustrated men out there like *cough cough* davver who want to learn how to get good with women and know what to do in situations like these. A lot of p!ck up artists acknowledge this, and often appeal to their market.

2. There are a wide range of P_U_As out there; anyone who claims to give advice about how to handle situations like the one linked above can call themselves a "P_U_A__"

3. The main core of P__U__As advocate reacting to indicators of interest and indicators of disinterest when deciding to move backwards or forwards

4. A lot of techniques, including "negs", "Jealousy Plots", and "Intermittent Rewards" can be very hurtful when used in the wrong context, but their proponents claim that they can build attraction and set yourself apart from other men when used in the right context.

5. A lot of these techniques are used by men and women subconsciously, but sound "creepy" and "manipulative" when they are parsed, labelled, and packaged to men who are in situations with high approach anxiety where a man has to consciously think about everything he does.

6. Despite all the stupid things that some P!ck up artists tell people to do, there is a lot of applied psychology and applied sociology in this art. Evolutionary psychology is nothing but backwards rationalization meant to persuade people or help them remember these concepts (Do you really need evo psych to justify dressing better, speaking in a deeper voice, and acting social to everyone?).

7. I will not try to justify Tyler Durden encouraging people to grab girls. But one thing TD has taught me, that is not creepy, is that there are such things as mental "frames": You have a certain perspective in life, and others may have differing perspectives. Some perspectives may overwhelm other perspectives; if you're happy, then walk into a group of people mourning a loved one's loss, then their perspective, or "frame", will overcome your perspective, or "frame". If a guy tries to tell you that you are a pathetic human being, and it's starting to overwhelm you mentally, you can overcome his "frame", or AMOG him as he calls it, by agreeing with him, amplifying his statements to the point of sarcasm, and laughing at him (agree and amplify). If this is done in a group, then your "frame" will suddenly become the dominant "frame" in the group.

8. Pieces of advice like the one above are what give p!ck-up its appeal- they offer you a carrot on a stick (being able to connect with women, or just "getting laid"), and give you pieces of advice that you can nod your head and agree with, and incorporate into your personality and outlook in life. Obviously there's a lot of common sense involved in filtering out the nonsense that's not congruent with your personality (and are downright creepy), but the end result are people who come in looking to "get laid", and leave with confidence, respect for women (remember those walls of text I posted in the previous page? It's a step-by-step guide on how to create an emotional connection), and a new outlook in life.

9. Juggler, who's specialty is body language and multi-level communication, summed it up best: "No one knows what it's like to go through the seduction community unless you're actually in it". It's not really about manipulating other people, it's about manipulating yourself. It's not really about cheap trickses to create attraction, it's about cheap trickses to change your outlook on life. This is why you have so many passionate defenders here. If you actually read The Game, you'd realize that it's not a manual on girls, it's a novel on a journey from being a boy to becoming a man. There is so much more to the seduction community than "date rape".


10. As for the w.o.r.d. f.i.l.t.e.r.: b.o.d.y. turns into body, h.e.a.d. turns into head, c.a.n. turns into will, s.e.d.u.c.t.i.o.n ->trickery, c.o.m.m.u.n.i.t.y. -> community, e.m.o.t.i.o.n.a.l. -> logical

[TheHMan]

I'd carry pepper spray or any other defense if I thought I might meet a rapist every other date. After standing up for yourself, making your intentions known and making the situation crystal clear, if the guy (criminal) is still forcing himself upon you, might as well have spray or tasers to defend yourself, and then get to the police. I don't know how I can make it any more clear that the p.ick-up arts are not about rape or any kind of physical force.

[toadpipe]

I love what you did there, a very manipulative tactic! You were able to switch around the situation and make your opponent explain why what they think is important. Toss in a dehumanizing name calling (literally, weasels aren't human!) and you've now in the course of the debate come full circle. You've gone from claiming P A U tactics are wrong deceitful and immoral, to using them.

You madame, win one internet.

(wow, the preview shows that HULK no longer able to type "P U A" or "p i c k u p a r t i s t" with out it being changed to a insult for me. That is the lamest thing I've ever seen on any forum. Congrats. And it would seem that "I a m" converts to HULK magically also. Just..... wow.)

I would like you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word meet a definition, i found it with a search engine.
Also, a all the breadcrumbs are forum-wide. There's a event going on. There's a sticky announcement about it, feel free to complain there.
P.s. way to infer gender based on avatar, gj

Since I've received no less than 37 PMs about this, I'll clarify for all of you that don't know how the term "literally" may be used to describe how someone is intentionally "not getting" what someone says, typically for satire.

Person One: "I'm soooo hungry I could eat a horse!"
Person Two: "Here's the roasted horse you ordered sir!"
*rimshot*

Person One: "Blah blah blah."
Person Two: "Those are weasel words!"
Person Three: "You callin' her a ferret, boy?"
*rimshot*

Get it yet?

Both sides of this crap are being total blithering socially awkward idiots. As my herp derp was meant to illustrate. Thank you all for proving the first sentence of this last paragraph.

[LettersAndNumbers]

Why would pepper spray be illegal, aside from the horrible pain it would cause to anyone?

[Fantastic Idea]

Please put the feelings aside for a minute and put on your thinking cap.

I can't, I have Shark Week.

[EsotericWombat]

[Felstaff]

I've unlocked this thread, pray I don't unlock it any further (...?)

I hope during this brief interim it's given the Pick-Up Artist Defenders' Club enough time to realise just how ridicooloss you sound! As for me, well, "The Game" was written for a predominantly American audience, and to be perfectly honest if that kind of approach was ever tried in England, (with a massively different culture relating to having all of the sex and making out and things), the receiver in question would be all like "seriously? You sound like a dick" and then everyone within earshot would turn to the 'artist and be all like "seriously? You sound like a dick" and then, true to stereotype, hundreds of British soccer thugs would descend and there would be lots of chair-throwing.

tl;dr: couldn't be fucked to read the thread, and only begrudgingly read the comic itself! Knock yourself out, jerks!

[The Great Hippo]

Something else I've been thinking about that bugs me, and I haven't been able to put into words until recently: The whole idea of a bunch of people attending a class/seminar on what to say to women in order to impress them and have sex with them. One of the key components of this is the question I asked way back--if the woman you're trying to 'pick up' was aware that you're a PUA, how would that make her feel?

I'm not sure how much honesty should be demanded in healthy, consenting relationships; for example, I don't think you need to tell a lady about that time you picked your nose. But this isn't an incidental omission; this is a conversation that is possible only because of the omission. How many women would walk away the moment they realized you're a PUA? It'd be one thing if you told her; I'd feel a lot less creeped out if you just came out and said 'That's a move I learned from the Game'. Because then it'd just be two people knowingly playing their roles.

But is that what's always going on? Are women usually knowing participants in this 'Game'? I see a lot of posters talking about how women do know what it's all about--how they have a strong social sense that tells them when you're just looking for a one-night stand, or when you're just playing the 'Game', etc--well, okay. If that's true, then saying something like 'I'm just interested in a one night stand', or 'I'm using techniques from the Game' should cause no harm to your chances, right? Because she knows this, right? There's no reason to withhold that information.

Except that's not what PUA teaches, is it? You're not supposed to tell her you learned all this from the PUA community. Because that would probably hurt your chances. It sounds more like PUA is allowing men to project their 'best case assumptions' ("Of course she knows I'm just playing the Game" - "Of course she knows I'm just interested in a one night stand") to avoid having to be honest with women, because honesty would hurt their chances¹. And when honesty hurts your chances, and you therefore choose not to be honest, what does that make you? What does this make PUA seminars and classes?

To my untrained eye? A conspiracy against women.

¹And to be honest, I'm sure that, in many cases, these assumptions may very well be correct! But there are cases where they might not be correct, and playing as if they're always correct is pretty irresponsible.

[GraphiteGirl]

For anyone who would like to read something about the intricacies of PUA from a knowledgeable source with an open mind and also a strong feminist sense, Clarisse Thorne has just written a book about it. For the wary, she really does do her very best to provide a fair and balanced perspective in all her blogging on the subject, so I have no reason to believe her book will be any different.

[The Great Hippo]

I'd be curious to read, but it's hard to justify doing so when I have a scarcity of funds!

I might wait to see if it pops out at the library. You mentioned blogging; I assume she's regularly blogged on the subject?

[GraphiteGirl]

She has indeed, and I think they're mostly on her personal blog, not Feministe. At under $3, I feel like the price is within my acceptable range

[purpleshoes]

The Basic Purpleshoes Formula For Finding A Mate (for heterosexual college underclassmen who are spending a lot of time complaining that no one wants to have sex with them):

- Calculate the amount of time you spend on grooming and exercise. Add about 10% to that total for women, and subtract about 10% for men. For instance, if you are a woman who does not shave her legs, assume you may be successful with a gentleman who is growing an experimental beard. If you are a gentleman who exercises daily and does something with his hair, assume you might find love with a woman who does cardio and knows how to apply makeup tastefully.
- Assume your potential partners are mostly within a standard deviation of your own waist circumference (+- about 2.5 inches), allowing for differences of height.

(You can't force yourself to be attracted to someone, of course, but my general finding is people who will never themselves be underwear models seem to have most of their success in the attractiveness zones of "cute in the right light" or "improve when you to know them".)

- Assume people of the opposite gender exist who share your interests. For instance, if you really enjoy spending the weekend indoors making yourself BLTs and rewatching Stargate, don't assume that no one of your relevant gender wants to do this just because you mostly see people of that gender drinking and shouting USA! USA! at passing cars all weekend. Perhaps your problems finding people to make small talk with (small talk that might lead to some awkward college makeouts) are a question of finding the appropriate person and not a question of irrevocable differences between the genders.

- Assume that social graces are distributed about equally between the genders, allowing for some differences in socialization, and that therefore your own love for or complete ineptitude with the sophisticated social cues of standard flirting are mirrored in people of your appropriate gender. Consider that they too might be relieved to have someone ask a yes-or-no question about sexual interest after a reasonable period of small talk, so long as you do it in a place where they can physically leave after declining.

I spent the first half of college being a female Nice Guy and general sad sack until I worked these things out. Then I discovered the magic of 1) opening with science fiction references and/or topics of academic obsession so as to drive off people I have nothing to say to 2) eventually saying the words "So do you want to make out". But seriously, don't use #2 in a situation where someone's going to feel pressured, even if it's just emotionally. The basic soul-crushing pathos of realizing you've gotten a pity handjob is not restricted to any particular gender.

[philsov]

There's no reason to withhold that information.

Basic human interaction and easy outs. People talk with indirect speech all the time. Here's a video (11 minutes, it's been linked on the fora before) of RSA animation on Language. Someone walking up and flat out going "HELLO. THE ONLY REASON I'M TALKING TO YOU IS BECAUSE I WANT VAGINA. YOURS PREFERABLY. CASUAL SEX NOW?", while being as honest and innocent as a button, will not on average succeed in their goal. This is completely independent of them being a PUA or not.

Past that it strikes me more as a cultural thing -- going to a formal party having taken a course in ballroom dancing will certainly make you look good, for example. Should people be ashamed that they had to take a class to learn how to dance properly? Should the old biddies only care to dance with "naturals?" Perhaps undergoing speech therapy to correct that your "R"s slurred into "W"'s and prevent you from talking like Elmer Fudd? If people were to compliment my diction I'd smile politely and say "thanks". Not "thanks, I use to sound like a bumbling idiot then I got professional help." Throw sex into the equation of education? Oh man, that's like dabbling in the dark arts! If one looked up foreplay on wikipedia or lurked an oral sex thread in LSR, and now is a better lover because of it... would that be worth mentioning prior to sex going "yeah baby, I'm well read and all yours!"? There's different ways to say that, like "I just read about something and want to try it out" which implies both a bit of education and curiousity but don't have as heavy of an impersonal and unsociable weight attached to them.

Similarly admitting that you're a PUA will hurt one's chances, akin to saying "yeah, I got this awesome body by surfing" as opposed to "I went to the gym alone 4 times a week for a year or two while occasionally hopping in a tanning bed so I don't look like a ghost." The surfer line will make you more attractive, on average. Are lying or emotional manipulation morally permissible? No. Do they work? Yes. The problem is that PUAs are type cast to not care about the emotions of their mark, which is usually a red flag on someone's willingness to sleep with the other person. Admitting to being a PUA would be self defeating, more often than not.

[The Great Hippo]

Basic human interaction and easy outs. People talk with indirect speech all the time. Here's a video (11 minutes, it's been linked on the fora before) of RSA animation on Language. Someone walking up and flat out going "HELLO. THE ONLY REASON I'M TALKING TO YOU IS BECAUSE I WANT VAGINA. YOURS PREFERABLY. CASUAL SEX NOW?", while being as honest and innocent as a button, will not on average succeed in their goal. This is completely independent of them being a PUA or not.

But why can't you make it clear later on in the conversation--when you're pretty sure via context that both of you are thinking about sex, both of you want sex, etc? It seems like a great way to make sure you're not just making bad assumptions based on your libido.

The problem for me isn't so much 'let's all pool our knowledge together and figure out ways to better interact with women'; it's that it's 'let's pool our knowledge together and figure out ways to improve our chances of getting laid'. There's an element of dishonesty here that runs deeper than merely lying about where you got your 6-pack from; yes, a woman might be less interested in you because you got your muscles from a gym rather than just surfing, but how likely is it that she's going to react poorly to discovering that it's a lie? How much more likely is it that she'll react poorly to discovering your whole interaction with her is based on techniques you learned at a seminar designed to get you laid?

I mean, I'm all for pooling knowledge when it comes to how to please your partners, and I think there's probably no sharp line for me where this goes from 'useful' to 'creepsville', but when you've got a bunch of guys in a room discussing how to project a cookie-cutter 'confidence' persona for the purposes of convincing women to sleep with them--and the lines, techniques, and actions that will best increase the likelihood of her sleeping with them--I find that enormously unsettling.

[Zamfir]

Philsov, I don't get your analogy. 'yeah, I work out a lot' is hardly something to keep secret. It can even be a standard opening: you look fit, you go to the gym a lot? After all, the muscles are attractive in themselves, and as promise of having some stamina in the sack.

[philsov]

It can even be a standard opening:

Yet another thing LMFAO has ruined. The muscles thing wasn't so much so much an analogy as a statement; natural is simply more desired than artificial. The problem isn't that the person used techniques they learned at a seminar to lure another into bed, the problem is that they were being a manipulative douchebag. Learned or natural, it's still creepy as hell.

but how likely is it that she's going to react poorly to discovering that it's a lie? How much more likely is it that she'll react poorly to discovering your whole interaction with her is based on techniques you learned at a seminar designed to get you laid?

Very likely to be hurt and upset. No one likes to be manipulated. Which is counter one of the (implied) goals of more meaningful and beneficial interactions across the board. But if all the pick up artist cares about is that one night stand, then, yes, it's quite unsettling, because of what they're willing to do.

[Nylonathatep]

I hope during this brief interim it's given the Pick-Up Artist Defenders' Club enough time to realise just how ridicooloss you sound! As for me, well, "The Game" was written for a predominantly American audience, and to be perfectly honest if that kind of approach was ever tried in England, (with a massively different culture relating to having all of the sex and making out and things), the receiver in question would be all like "seriously? You sound like a dick" and then everyone within earshot would turn to the 'artist and be all like "seriously? You sound like a dick" and then, true to stereotype, hundreds of British soccer thugs would descend and there would be lots of chair-throwing.

tl;dr: couldn't be fucked to read the thread, and only begrudgingly read the comic itself! Knock yourself out, jerks!

My experience from hanging out on internet forums is that an internet debate rarely changes people's mind about an issue. So I'm sorry to disappoint you and all the other moderators out there but the brief interim break from this thread has not changed my views. In fact, I'm a bit suprised that they didn't change theirs given all the information the PUA has provided about their Modus operandi and how they read a girl's body language and disscet their responds; the Mods just goes by the group's apparant stigma, refuse to open their minds a bit, and reject anything the PUA have to say.

I would say that because PUA's method probably need a revision if it was applied in Great Britian... because the social scene, culture, and people's interaction are different. I haven't been to England myself but from how what I've heard, stuff like PUA probably won't even be needed there:

http://drc.usask.ca/projects/eng803/hea ... ester.html

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011 ... 74366.html

Except that's not what PUA teaches, is it? You're not supposed to tell her you learned all this from the PUA community. Because that would probably hurt your chances. It sounds more like PUA is allowing men to project their 'best case assumptions' ("Of course she knows I'm just playing the Game" - "Of course she knows I'm just interested in a one night stand") to avoid having to be honest with women, because honesty would hurt their chances¹. And when honesty hurts your chances, and you therefore choose not to be honest, what does that make you? What does this make PUA seminars and classes?

I think you are onto the assumption that girls would be offended if guys learn how to pick them up. Aren't you jumping to conclusions right there? I would say going to a lecture in how to Pick up girls is like going to AA... yes you admint you have a problem, whether it's controlling your drinking habit or having problems talking approaching girls, but it's better then not addressing the problem at all. On the other hand, girls would actually be quite flattered that guys learned a thing or two to pick them up, instead of guys making clumsy attempt of doing so... they wouldn't always say yes.. but at least they get to see what was offered and be entertained by it...

Your second point regarding "best case assumption" was addressed so many times in so many ways throughout this thead that it's tiring to answer. We check for verbal clues and body language to confirm and some poster has already made a huge list of clues that we look for in confirmation of interest. We are honest about our chances and if the answer is negative we respectfully move on.

Seriously there's nothing new we could add on this topic and at this point it's just a bunch of posters coming in and argue using the same bias and preconception. If you are truely interested in finding out why PUA is not bottom feeding scum sucker you'll have to go through the whole entire thread. If you here just to justify your personal opinion that want to defend pure innocent maidens on teh interwebs... sorry the princess is in another castle.


My suggestion is for this thread to be locked.

[Princess Marzipan]

sorry the princess is in another castle.

Excuuuuuse me, but I'm right bloody here.

[Nylonathatep]

sorry the princess is in another castle.

Excuuuuuse me, but I'm right bloody here.

I wouldn't describe you as pure and innocent.

Besides you hardly need any defending.

[PeteP]

Out of interest Nylonathatep why did you , in your first posts in this thread, pretend that you weren't a PUA and were criticizing both sides? Did you think your criticism against the anti PUA side would have more weight if you displayed yourself as a third side?

[JudeMorrigan]

My experience from hanging out on internet forums is that an internet debate rarely changes people's mind about an issue. So I'm sorry to disappoint you and all the other moderators out there but the brief interim break from this thread has not changed my views. In fact, I'm a bit suprised that they didn't change theirs given all the information the PUA has provided about their Modus operandi and how they read a girl's body language and disscet their responds; the Mods just goes by the group's apparant stigma, refuse to open their minds a bit, and reject anything the PUA have to say.

It's funny because many of the things that the PUAs in this thread have had to say have given me the screaming heebie jeebies.

[Princess Marzipan]

Out of interest Nylonathatep why did you , in your first posts in this thread, pretend that you weren't a PUA and were criticizing both sides? Did you think your critic against the anti PUA side would have more weight if you displayed yourself as a third side?

It was PUA practice.

I wouldn't describe you as pure and innocent.

And? A princess needn't be innocent nor pure. That's some heteronormative patriarchal misogynist bullshit right there.

Besides you hardly need any defending.

WHAT


SAY THAT TO MY FACE


SAY IT TO MY FUCKING FACE

[Belial]

SAY IT TO MY FUCKING-FACE

You have just set in motion plans that will be the undoing of us both, and more besides.

[Nylonathatep]

Out of interest Nylonathatep why did you , in your first posts in this thread, pretend that you weren't a PUA and were criticizing both sides? Did you think your critic against the anti PUA side would have more weight if you displayed yourself as a third side?

Read everything I've posted on this thread. I think a lot of posters here are being too critical about PUA in general, having huge misconceptions about what it does, and are stuck with outdated mentalities and social norm that doesn't applied anymore.

I never claim that I was or wasn't PUA. I read a few tips online here and there, have some positive results, but the biggest thing I learned is what I did wrong in the past and why I wasn't successful back then. I also encourage you to find the cracked.com article and read it. My second post in this thread sums up my position best.

It's funny because many of the things that the PUAs in this thread have had to say have given me the screaming heebie jeebies.

To each their own, and everyone is entired to their opinion. It's better then people just blindly pointing fingers without reading.

[Nylonathatep]

I wouldn't describe you as pure and innocent.

And? A princess needn't be innocent nor pure. That's some heteronormative patriarchal misogynist bullshit right there.

My suggestion to you in general is to read everything in full context before posting a reply.

If you here just to justify your personal opinion that want to defend pure innocent maidens on teh interwebs... sorry the princess is in another castle.

[Princess Marzipan]

My suggestion to you in general is to read everything in full context before posting a reply.

That's a valid suggestion if my goal is making an argument. I may make one later, but I have not even made an attempt yet.