I'm a mostly neutral party here, and I'm ready to try to sum up the anti-PUA themes.
1. The very idea of PUA creeps me out. And anybody who doesn't feel like that also creeps me out.
This is not an argument, and there is no possible argument against it. If somebody said "I don't like broccoli" would they be convinced if somebody else explained that it's healthy, and nutritious, and not the least bit fattening, and there are things in it that slow down some cancers? You don't taste it as much if you smother it in cheese? Getting creeped out at the idea is a valid feeling and that's all there is to it.
2. What if I had sex with somebody and then it turned out they were a creepy PUA? That would be waaaayyyyyyyyy creepy.
This is a valid point of view. It's just like "What if I had sex with somebody and then it turned out they were a Republican?". The obvious solution is to ask them if they're a Republican before it gets too far. Except they might lie about it, and so might the creepy PUA.
3. PUAs think they can manipulate me into having sex with them. That's creepy.
I agree. It bothers me when anybody thinks they can manipulate me into anything. I make my own choices, and I don't get manipulated unless people lie to me about the facts and I believe them, or they frame the facts in a way I wouldn't have framed them, etc.
4. There are some stupid women out there who can actually get manipulated into things, and it's despicable to abuse them.
I agree. Such women deserve to be protected from manipulation, and yet somehow they are considered legally adult and they get exposed to all sorts of things. They might even get manipulated into voting Republican, and there's nothing anybody can do about it except somehow teach them to think for themselves.
5. What if this stuff actually worked on me? That would be horrible! I don't want anybody manipulating me!
I feel the same way. If there was, say, a perfume or makeup or something that converted the women I would otherwise be moderately attracted to into extremely attractive, when I was open to sex or to a relationship, I wouldn't mind at all. It's pleasant in the short run, and in the long run it isn't that important. If there was a perfume that made me mad with lust so I didn't get to choose, I'd find that extremely creepy.
I very much doubt this PUA stuff can do that much. If you're already open for a fling, If you're ready for something with somebody who looks OK, and a PUA guy comes along who looks OK, then maybe. I doubt it can do any more than that. If it can, then you really ought to study PUA and study yourself, to see what's going on with you. It doesn't bother me so much that there are ads which claim that any sociopath can learn Krav Maga and learn how to kill me in 10 seconds. There are very few people going around doing that in my social circles. But if you can get manipulated into sex, it's likely to happen to you within a few years.
6. There are a bunch of creepy guys who can't get sex, who go crazy about it. What if some of those learn this stuff and try to pass as normal people? I could get involved with one of them, and that would be horrible.
Unless you're somebody who gets involved with people quick, based on shallow surface stuff, that won't happen.
7. But they're likely to ask me for sex when I don't want them to. That's creepy.
You have a right to your feelings. And at the moment it isn't illegal for them to ask you for sex. You have the right to say no. If you want to be sure that never happens, you could perhaps find some arab husband who will keep you in purdah where you never have to worry about it.
8. They should read my subtle body language and never ask me when I don't want them to.
Maybe so. Are they less likely to ask you when you don't want them to if they get some sort of training in what to look for?
9. Sometimes men keep asking even after I say no. This is distressing.
Agreed. Especially when they've been drinking, right? Men tend to act less responsibly when they drink. If it's too much of a problem you might look for ways to reduce it. You could try to look ugly. You could be very plain and convincing when you say no. You could go to lesbian bars. You could find a husband who will always protect you.
10. But it's wrong for me to have to say no. I feel uncomfortable, and nobody should ever do anything that makes me feel uncomfortable.
I run into that attitude sometimes. Like, one time I went to a used bookstore and I wanted to sell back a book I'd bought there for 1/2 the selling price. The guy who was supposed to approve that got all upset that I brought him a book he didn't want and he had to say no. Then I remembered the time I was driving a long distance and I stopped at a convenience store to use the restroom, and the clerk wouldn't let me use it. I bought a candy bar and then he said I could use his restroom. "That makes you a customer and not just a damn nuisance." So I chose the books I wanted to buy, and then I went back to him about the one I didn't want to carry home. He yelled at me and people looked at us from all over the store because he was yelling. He was truly upset that I had made him say no again. He should not have been working retail.
And on a forum kind of like this one I met a guy who was strongly opposed to using condoms. He grudgingly agreed he'd use condoms provided a few conditions were met -- they must feel exactly like he was not wearing them, and they must be 100% reliable, and they must taste completely natural and good, and a few more. I figured this was somebody who really needed to be alone until he got into a monogamous relationship for life. But his position was that he deserved not to be bothered with anything he didn't want to be bothered about. It was some kind of special sense of entitlement. I can understand that there are similarly women who don't want to have to say no.
11. When a man I don't want asks me for sex, I'm afraid. He might rape me. I'm afraid if I say no he might get violent.
There can be a legitimate fear there. Some women do get raped. I expect that on average women are more likely to get raped if they don't say no, than if they do say no. Rapists are probably pretty diverse -- they are antisocial perverts after all, so there might not be anything we can say that's true of all of them except that they sometimes rape people. But it makes sense that a rapist who's looking for a victim and meets a strong assertive woman might be more likely to look for some other target. That isn't dependable. But neither is anything else. If you passively let a rapist do whatever he wants, he might do violence anyway. He might kill you even after you actively help him fulfill his fantasies. You don't have a lot to lose by being honest and saying no.
Some men who keep pushing when they don't get a firm no might likely stop when they do get one. Maybe assertiveness training would help. Also it's potentially a good thing to teach men to do their invitations in public, and then if you want to, you go someplace private after you've agreed. There are people who think that spoils the moment, but it didn't for me. I dunno. Maybe Krav Magra training would help. Maybe men will get the idea you're saying no if you rip their cheeks out. But of course, lots of women don't want to have to learn how to rip out somebody's cheek. The world ought to be set up so they won't get raped no matter what they do. That's how it would be if things were fair.
12. So there are these crazy creepy men who only want women for sex, and they take these creepy classes, and that makes the classes even creepier.
Yes. Some of the PUA classes advertise for customers like that, because they're in an intensely competitive environment and it's hard to fill the classes, and that is a potentially lucrative market. And women see the ads. So, if some of the men actually get less creepy, if they figure out that women are just like human beings that was a joke, of course women are human beings, I hate having to explain jokes then isn't that a good thing? If they learn to take no for an answer and look elsewhere, isn't that a good thing?
13. But it's crazy creepy men who only want women for sex! That's just creepy.
Yes, and there are some women who only want men for sex. The quicker those find each other and stop bothering the rest of us, the better. Agreed?
14. But if they learn how to seduce women, they might actually seduce some women. That's creepy and disgusting.
I don't know what to say about this. Maybe you should set up classes to teach women who like one-night-stands not to like them?
15. It isn't about what anybody ought to do. The point is that PUA guys are creepy and disgusting. They were just as creepy and disgusting before they took up PUA, and the idea that they might learn to pass as human is even worse.
Those are legitimate feelings. I'm more interested in what people can do to change things for the better, myself. What good does it do to just tell people you're disgusted with them, without any idea what anybody can do?
16. The disgusting people ought to just go off and die or something. I don't want anything to do with them. They should not be living in my world.
Well still, how would things work if they actually worked?
17. The way it's supposed to be, nobody has to ask, and nobody has to answer. Things just work out like magic. You both know what you want and what the other wants. True communication. No confusion, except that wonderful confusion of true love.
And has it often worked this way for you?
18. You don't worry about whether it will ever happen. It will happen when it's meant to. If you get old and die without it, then you just weren't fated for it. But if it is fated for you, that's wonderful.
Men aren't brought up to think this way. Men like to ask because they aren't always sure they know how you feel.
19. You have to ask before you do anything. Then ask every time you take it a step farther. Don't just assume the answer will be yes, because if you do then you're basicly a rapist.
I get the impression there's this cultural or biological difference. Men believe they need to take initiative and try to make things happen, while women tend to want to wait for men to take the initiative. Is that true?
20. No. There are no important differences between the way men and women think. They're basicly just alike. Except that a whole lot of men are creepy and weird.
So anyway, what should men do different?
21. You act like you aren't as disgusted by POA as I am. That means you're creepy and weird. Just go away,
The Law of Fives is true. I see it everywhere I look for it.