xkcd

by **Monika** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:40 pm UTC

What filters into misogyny not found?

Kewangji wrote:(Also hi everybody, I have breasts now; I don't think I told this thread.)

Where did you get those from?

by **meridian** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:48 pm UTC

Spoilered for those who don't want to see it again...

Spoiler:

by **Kewangji** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:07 pm UTC

Monika wrote:Where did you get those from?

A friend gave me a padded bra. I proceeded to wear it. Magic happened!

by **Monika** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:02 pm UTC

Oh neat

.
Would you say you are a crossdresser now?

Thanks @meridian.

by **Kewangji** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:09 pm UTC

Monika wrote:Oh neat .
Would you say you are a crossdresser now?

I'm dressing according to my gender*, so no. I might've identified as cross-dresser before, but only out of technicality: I am a man and the skirts I wore were not made for men.

*male and genderqueer; I've tried to stop associating myself with the idea of man or maleness but it doesn't work. So I'm that, plus more things.

by **SecondTalon** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:11 pm UTC

meridian wrote:Spoilered for those who don't want to see it again...
Spoiler:
F e m i n i n e w i l e s And a couple other things I don't remember right now. Oh! P u s s y p o w e r!

Spoiler:

by **Black Dynamite** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:46 am UTC

Brace wrote:Reading Atlas Shrugged was actually one of the things that kicked me into beginning transition. She just did a great job of making me feel like it was ok to care about myself and make decisions that benefited only me, even when society might want me to do otherwise; IE, that I had no obligation to destroy myself for the sake of an unjust society. That being said, anyone who self-describes as an Objectivist probably doesn't have it all together. Ayn Rand is fun, but hardly rigorous philosophy, and is wrong on a number of issues in very obvious ways. Although, I'd be suspicious of anyone who reads a single book and takes it to irrefutably encapsulate every core truth of metaphysics, morality, and human existence *cough*

I think you really summed up my opinion of this.

Reading The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged really helped me develop a different way of looking at the world. It changed how I thought about myself, and helped me out of an awful bout of depression. I like what she has to say, but I don't take it so seriously.

PM 2Ring wrote:We can still be friends.

Haha,

good. People do seem to not be in the middle of the road when considering Ayn Rand, huh?

Vaniver wrote:
Spoiler:
A bit of background: this friend is young, and gives a bit more respect to the opinion of famous Objectivists than I would like. My understanding is his reason is twofold:

First, reality is absolute. Attempts to rebel against nature to impose an ideal world end poorly- Objectivists instead focus on acting within and controlling nature.

Second, people gain knowledge through experience. A man cannot truthfully say they 'feel like a woman' inside because they haven't experienced how it feels to be a woman- they don't know.

Both of those strike me as weak objections. It's not clear to me that sex changes are "rebelling against" rather than "acting within" nature, and Peikoff (Ayn Rand's intellectual heir) claims here that sex is 'either-or,' which doesn't appear absolutely true. As well, the experience of gender dysphoria seems suggestive enough for SRS to be the default treatment.

That's another issue with Objectivist thought, which sometimes helps but in this case hurts: Objectivism likes to focus on the normal, make decisions that respect the normal, and then maybe extend the reasoning to everyone, rather than doing casuistry based on the abnormal. (The concept is called the "lifeboat fallacy," and is discussed on page 44 of The Virtue of Selfishness.) And so you get things like "men and women are well-defined, distinct concepts"- which is true for at least 95% of the population, but is not true for the remainder. But many prominent Objectivists seem to take an unfriendly view of the remainder- Peikoff says, in the linked podcast, that people who want sex changes are freaks. Which is correct if you use 'freak' to mean 'abnormal' but downright unfriendly if you use it to mean 'monster'.

There is decent reason to hope things will change- Rand saw homosexuals as deviants but came around eventually, and it's so a similar policy change could happen for transfolk.

But it's also worth pointing out that Objectivists- as in, people associated with the Ayn Rand Institute- are just a subset of fans of Ayn Rand, as there have been several splits over the years because of personal or philosophical disputes, but I'm not seeing any mention of trans issues over at the Atlas Society.

To those not interested in wading through the spoilers, I haven't come across any philosophical arguments by Rand or successors that prevent trans acceptance, but instead the Objectivists I'm discussing it with seem to have a misunderstanding of what causes trans, which is compounded by the difficulty of convincing anyone who has spent some time fortifying their intellectual positions.

Thank you. I think they're taking themselves too seriously.

by **Jessica** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:38 pm UTC

A trans activist acquaintance of mine was recently baited and slandered by a rad-fem douchebag, about one of the things we've talked about in some recent conferences. It's a concept known as the cotton Ceiling. "The lesbian" she calls herself tried to "trick" her into saying that trans women aren't women, essentially. Of course the exchange between them (which was posted publicly on "the lesbian's" site) is very calm and rational on my friend's side, and full of transphobic baiting on the other. And, as this is one of those essentialist women, who thinks penis = man, and nothing else matters, she goes on to rationalize her hate.

Made me really angry. REALLY fucking angry.

Read part of this today (Honestly couldn't read her crap after a while), and was sickened. I'm not sure if posting a link to it is wise. No need to generate page hits for her, and it's really transphobic (not to mention, your comments will be screened if you don't agree with her). But, I'll pull a really awesome part from my friend about the above theory (the cotton ceiling).

The cotton ceiling is a theory proposed by trans porn star and activist Drew DeVeaux to explain the experiences queer trans women have with simultaneous social inclusion and sexual exclusion within the broader queer women’s communities. Basically, it means that cis queer women will be friends with us and talk day and night about trans rights and ending transmisogyny, but will still not consider us viable sexual partners.

The term cotton ceiling is a reference to the “glass ceiling” that second wave feminist identified in the workforce, wherein women could only advance so high in the workforce but could not break through into positions of power and authority. The cotton represents underwear, signifying sex.

The theory of the cotton ceiling is useful in identifying the dynamic trans women are experiencing, and is meant to open up conversation around desirability’s intersections with transmisogyny and transphobia.

I hope this description is helpful! Let me know if you have any other questions.

I do have another awesome article to post though. It's about the word tranny.

by **Plasma Man** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:58 pm UTC

So, the UK government has today launched a consultation into gay marriage. The UK currently has civil partnerships, but not full gay marriage, so this seems like a step in the right direction. I'd say that full gay marriage has a pretty good chance of coming in, the Liberal Democrats are supportive, as is David Cameron, and even the opposition seems to be in favour (only criticising the plans for not going far enough). There is predictable grumbling from some Conservative backbenchers, and equally predictable frothing-at-the-mouth rants from religious and right-wing groups, but I think that most people have got used to civil partnerships, so aren't going to think that gay marriage will bring about the apocalypse.

One interesting thing that's in the consultation document is a section pointing out that the proposals would mean that if one person in a marriage underwent gender reassignment, the couple would still be able to stay married if they wanted to - something which wouldn't be possible under the current system.

Needless to say, I've used submitted my response to the consultation, giving it my full support (though I did comment that religious organisations that wanted to carry out gay marriages should be allowed to).

by **Monika** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:39 pm UTC

In Germany civil unions ("registered life-partnerships") are unequal to marriages, but people who have a legal sex change can still stay married. But that was a Supreme Court decision around 10 years ago, it did not come from the lawmakers (parliament).

(Of course we still need full same-sex marriage, too.)

by **PinkSugarSwirls** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:58 pm UTC

hey y'all!
if you wouldn't mind signing this here petition and spreading it around, it would mean and awful lot to me and other Texan lgbtqs! http://www.thepetitionsite.com/9/Support-Gay-Marriage-In-Texas (link okayed -Lanicita)
we're a whole lot of signatures away from our goal, but if we somehow managed to do this it would mean a huge nationwide turning point in civil rights!
xoxo

by **Aaeriele** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:26 am UTC

While I wish you the best of luck, PinkSugarSwirls, you really should read the rules first.

by **Kaelin** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:57 am UTC

*peeks in*

I'm dressing according to my gender*, so no. I might've identified as cross-dresser before, but only out of technicality: I am a man and the skirts I wore were not made for men.

I suppose my story is somewhat similar. I mean, I feel that I'm male (if I'm anything), but I don't respect/regard the idea that being male means acting/dressing a certain way. I haven't really taken to bras and skirts yet (haven't found really anything in a store to my liking), but I have some tasteful dresses/shoes and a trivial quantity of jewelry. Smooth skin is good, although it can be somewhat bothersome to achieve a whole lot.

The idea of CDing or CDers just feels like a social construct, and for me, the clothes have nothing to do with looking or feeling feminine but rather looking or feeling the way that seems right in the moment. Clothes are clothes, mannerisms are mannerisms, interests are interests, and so on. Many of these may be regarded as having some connection to gender, but it's corrupted by societal influence, and it's ultimately irrelevant in determining who we are. The obligations we have come to the merits of the helps and harms we commit towards others, ourselves, and our world, and conforming to arbitrary restrictions (gender or otherwise) should not be in our society -- they simply fail to stand up to mathematical rigor. I am most fascinated in actually knowing what people feel and have to offer, and that sort of necessitates people are liberated accordingly.

by **Ulc** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:19 am UTC

Kaelin wrote:they simply fail to stand up to mathematical rigor.

While you're right that gender-typecasted clothes (and as such, the concept of cross-dressing) are a fairly silly societal construct, I don't really think it's useful in any kind of way to try and approach as a mathematical thing, since it's certainly something where mathematical logic does not apply.

by **Brace** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:02 pm UTC

1. I'm not even sure what "mathematical rigor" means in this case, and
2. You should never say that math doesn't apply to something, just that a given attempt to apply it doesn't check out.

by **Brace** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:59 pm UTC

Due to various stupid things mostly related to financial aid tedium, I think I'm going to take summer semester mostly off and just work to pay off my bike while taking only one class (remedial intermediary algebra, incidentally >_>). I'll make more money this way, I won't have to pay it back, I'll have probably twice the free time paradoxically, and I won't have to try and convince financial aid people to make any more exceptions than they already have for me (I have more than 1.5x the credits I need to graduate which is a semi-hard cutoff so I'm lucky to have even been allowed to finish up just the classes I need).

Also sick. Also, having a bike is nice. Also also, my internship is very nice and makes me feel nice but kind of worse about having to continue working where I work so I wish it was paid kinda.

by **sambot5** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:23 pm UTC

[deleted for IRL safety reasons]

by **PM 2Ring** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:04 pm UTC

Good luck, sambot!

Remember, it'll take your parents a while to digest this information. You've had ages to intellectually and emotionally adjust to your queerness, but for them it's (probably) a very sudden thing. Their old image of you has a lot of momentum and they may go through various emotional states in the process of coming to terms with the bomb you've just dropped.

It's not unusual for parents and other family members to oscillate between positive and negative reactions for a while. It can be uncomfortable, but it can also be like an emotional "spring cleaning".

* big hugs *

by **Monika** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

Good luck *hugs*

by **Black Dynamite** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:47 am UTC

I hope everything goes well. I'm think it's awesome you did it

*hugs*

by **Bassoon** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:53 am UTC

I've been having pretty weird feelings about sex lately. I don't mind watching porn or whatnot, it's just when I think about sexytimes with an actual person I like, I feel really gross about it. I mean, I don't really mind sex, I guess, but I feel like it just complicates stuff or isn't as great as it's cracked up to be. I certainly don't feel this way when I'm doing the deed, but it seems to be my general mindset until I get put into the "turned on" mood somehow.

by **Aaeriele** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:03 am UTC

sambot5 wrote:Now that he's home, I have to come out to him too. oi. This will be one uncomfortable weekend...

On the plus side, it'll help catalyze moving things along.

by **natashatasha** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:25 am UTC

Going to make a doctor's appointment tomorrow for hormones. Posting here so I don't chicken out.

Well, to help stop me from chickening out.

Once I've booked an appointment I have to go, so it's just this final step I need to summon the nerves for.

by **Monika** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:25 am UTC

*huggles Natasha*

by **Black Dynamite** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:15 pm UTC

I'm so excited for you.

Spoiler:

by **FreyasSpirit** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:24 pm UTC

Huge happy hugs for sambot and natasha.

*HUGS*

by **Shro** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:07 am UTC

YAY LOVE
Description:

Spoiler:

by **natashatasha** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:12 pm UTC

Thanks for the hugs& super adowable puppy!
The appointment is booked for next Monday, with the only doctor anywhere near me still accepting new patients. Hopefully the reason they're still accepting new patients while everyone else is full isn't because they're horrid.

by **rath358** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:41 pm UTC

I went shopping with a friend yesterday, and got a simple tank top and pair of girl jeans.
Yay progress. Also yay for not destroying my bank account too much.

Also, I am going to contribute a bit to the discussion on crossdressing by talking about my slightly different perspective.
Spoilered for boring.

Spoiler:

by **Monika** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:38 pm UTC

Black Dynamite wrote:
Baby Courage Wolf for inspiration

Awwww! The cute is killing me!

by **flickering_candle** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:07 pm UTC

I've been having pretty weird feelings about sex lately. I don't mind watching porn or whatnot, it's just when I think about sexytimes with an actual person I like, I feel really gross about it. I mean, I don't really mind sex, I guess, but I feel like it just complicates stuff or isn't as great as it's cracked up to be. I certainly don't feel this way when I'm doing the deed, but it seems to be my general mindset until I get put into the "turned on" mood somehow.

I feel very similarly sometimes, although outside of sexytimes it usually registers more as a general discomfort/avoidance of sexytimes, with the grossness being more common *during,* although thankfully not most of the time (since my sexual girlfriend, while usually understanding, gets a bit cranky sometimes

). With regards to sex not being all it's cracked up to be, I feel that always, although usually having sex doesn't bother me, and my girlfriend enjoys it. OTOH, there are some people on the forum who have posted that they feel the disgust/grossness with sex always, and for that reason choose not to have sex altogether.

I don't think I've posted in this thread before, even though this was the main reason I made an account instead of lurking without one. Silly nerves. I identify in the asexual spectrum, and generally considered myself to be aromantic (the aforementioned girlfriend being the first person I've felt romantic interest towards in nearly a decade). I am male-bodied and somewhere on the transgender spectrum; although I usually fall somewhere between male and androgynous sometimes I find myself more towards the feminine end. Still, most of the time I'm relatively comfortable in this male body, other than minor gripes about hairiness (which in my case is actually far less than most of those born with male bodies).

by **DaBigCheez** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:15 pm UTC

Hey there flickering_candle, nice to meet you here!

If you are not asnuggular, I hereby offer you the traditional welcoming snuggle (>^_^<)

by **Wyvern** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:55 pm UTC

so I'm back. (been for a few days) I want to thank you all for your support, and *HUGS*

so lately I've been trying to revisit the sexual orientation thing (since I haven't bothered to figure anything out) and I can't seem to justify calling myself anything but asexual. The attraction's just not there. I find many people aesthetically pleasing and enjoy good looking people, and I love hugs and snuggles, but the sexual urges are missing. I just don't really care for it.

Also, nice avatar rath :3

by **Nordic Einar** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:26 am UTC

Good luck Natasha! I just gave my boyfriend his 6th T-shot today, and his first full dose. Super exciting stuff, and I hope it goes well for you.

Spoilered for rage;

Spoiler:

Cheers to all of you, and I hope your springs progress with less tears than ours has here in the District.

Edits so I'm not an asshole anymore, then.

by **felltir** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:12 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.

Stabbed for not entirely [SAFESPACE] appropriate.

by **PerchloricAcid** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:39 pm UTC

Shro wrote:YAY LOVE

Yay, love

Thanks for the link, made my evening.

Spoiler:

by **Nordic Einar** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:44 pm UTC

It's increasingly obvious this thread and myself are not at all compatible. I already try not to intrude too much or post that often, but it's probably best if I just stay out entirely. Ya'll are some wonderful folks, and for those of you struggling I hope you find the resources you need to pull through. If anyone is ever in the D.C - Maryland - Virginia area I'd be happy to direct you all to some of them.

by **felltir** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:11 am UTC

Everyone who follows the [SAFESPACE] tag is welcome here.

by **Brace** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:32 am UTC

I don't think it's wrong to discuss the occasionally unfortunate dynamics of queer politics, but I do think that you could have been more diplomatic. Understandably that's not what's on your mind right now and you just wanted to vent. But yeah, basically the idea of this thread is that it's safe for everybody. I'm sure there's a bit of room for political discussion about the occasionally divergent interests of different groups, but not really when it's polemical. So, if you need to vent first and foremost and that was the main thing you were getting out of this, you may be right about another outlet being preferable. It doesn't mean you need to write off this entire thread though, just that you need to try and respect the spirit in which it was created when you post in it. Hopefully you have needs beyond just the need to vent though, because that would be a sad condition to be in

by **lanicita** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:23 am UTC

Brace is exactly right.

I would like to remind everybody to respect the Safespace, by being careful with your words so you don't hurt anybody else who uses this thread as a Safespace, and also by reporting anything that is not Safespace-appropriate and allowing a mod to handle it, rather than escalating conflict in-thread. Thank you.

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