Mass Effect 3 (Seriously, Use Spoilers People!)

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Ghostbear » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:08 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:I guess the question I have for you then is would have you okay been waiting and paying $70-80 for the game or $90-100 for the collectors edition? Because waiting those few months clearly would impact their costs.

I actually think this isn't the right way to think of it. Of course spending more time would increase costs. Games are rarely priced based on how long it took to develop; Half Life 2 doesn't cost more than Dragon Age 2 (in fact, it appears to cost half as much; though I'm comparing Steam to Amazon prices). It's up to the developer to manage their costs and their product. Just because it'd cost them more to make the ending good doesn't mean the game has to cost more; certainly, they can pass the cost onto us, but that's generally a less successful tactic in the modern entertainment industry. In the end, if they accept that their game is going to have a $60 price tag, it's up to them to make sure it meets the expectations people have for a $60 game. If it costs them more to do that, then that's their problem, not the customer's.

Dark567 wrote:
Spoiler:
I read it and well. I think you have some of it wrong.
1. Yep, its a deus ex machina. It's lame. Agreed.
2. They pulled the midichlorians out of their ass on the reaper explanation. It was bad. Agreed.

On 3, and 5. The point of the ending was to invalidate all your choices you have made in the previous games showing how little you(or even the majority of life in the galaxy) can do in the face of extra-galactic forces, essentially Lovecraftian cosmicism(a theme very heavy in ME1). That's what makes the ending really bleak, not just shades of bleak, but the ultimately all this time there are forces at work here an not matter how hard you try the galaxy is still pretty much doomed. It might not be by the hand of the reapers, but its doomed. Doesn't matter if your good or bad, or if you build large alliances and fix disease and war. Live in the galaxy isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. You can't fix that.

Spoiler:
I can see this being a reply a point 5, but how does it counter the argument that the ending is lazy (which was point 3)? Also, I think point 4 is quite significant, as Shepard has always opposed that inevitability of the universe. When Shepard learned about the reapers, they devoted themselves to defeating them. Shepard didn't stop when they were told the genophage couldn't be cured, nor when they were told that no one believed in reapers, nor when people said the quarians and geth could never get along. Not when they were told that stopping the collectors was a suicide mission. Not when, from the very beginning of the first game, they were told that getting the council to listen to them about Saren was futile. The whole character of Shepard is about refusing to give in to fate just because other people say you need to. Then at the very end, fate swoops in and says "You need to give in, here's your three options that I have chosen for you" and Shepard says "Sure thing boss".

Which ties into the rest- the games have never been about doom being inevitable. They've been about proving that it isn't inevitable. It's about opposing the will dictated upon us by beings greater than us; showing that we can oppose them, and we can win! The first game shows that a single individual can work to stop a being of immeasureable power, that through skill, luck, and persistence, you aren't insignificant. That the "extra-galactic forces" aren't as overwhelming as they make themselves out to be. That they can be defeated, and our fate and our choices are ours to make, ours to choose, not theirs. The series is about one person proving that just because things are the way they are, we don't need to accept that. I truly got zero impression of this "We can't oppose fate" sense that you appear to have gotten from the series.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:09 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Spoiler:
On 3, and 5. The point of the ending was to invalidate all your choices you have made in the previous games showing how little you(or even the majority of life in the galaxy) can do in the face of extra-galactic forces, essentially Lovecraftian cosmicism(a theme very heavy in ME1). That's what makes the ending really bleak, not just shades of bleak, but the ultimately all this time there are forces at work here an not matter how hard you try the galaxy is still pretty much doomed. It might not be by the hand of the reapers, but its doomed. Doesn't matter if your good or bad, or if you build large alliances and fix disease and war. Live in the galaxy isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. You can't fix that.


Spoiler:
I actually disagree with your assessment of the hard-edge you're putting on the Lovecraftian themes in ME1. It really wasn't a flat out "Reapers are more powerful than you all and you're all screwed" thing, Sovereign was defeated, by canon in part because it had made a mistake in tying itself too closely in to Saren and Saren's final destruction caused a feedback loop that opened Sovereign up to counter-attack. It never suggested bunnies and rainbows were going to come about fighting the Reapers, it was quite clear that fighting the Reapers would be difficult and there would be massive casualties, but the Reapers in ME1 for all the inevitability that they would arrive -could still be fought-.

Even Lovecraft's elder horrors could on many occasions be fought and turned back -for now-. Sure they'll be back like any great cosmological threat, but part of the cyclic nature of the Reapers was that they weren't perfect, pieces were left behind, as the Crucible was left behind before the Protheans and the Protheans built and added to the designs before the Council Races got their hands on the plans. This creates a progressive error in the Reaper's calculations that they're constantly trying to correct for, however as evidenced by the Conduit in ME1 the Reapers hadn't found everything, nor had Sovereign's vast cosmological plans been able to correct for the error of just the Conduit, or else Sovereign (the synthetic synthesis of an entire pre-Council, possibly pre-Prothean race) wouldn't have been destroyed.

Edit: I agree with Ghostbear's assessment as well. He's attacking it from the angle of the player's actions in fighting what others say can't be fought, I'm attacking the Reapers as infalliable all-powerful entities, I say they've been buying in to too much of their own propaganda.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:45 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Vaniver wrote:
Dark567 wrote:I guess the question I have for you then is would have you okay been waiting and paying $70-80 for the game or $90-100 for the collectors edition? Because waiting those few months clearly would impact their costs.
Um, yes?
Yeah, I mean I guess I honestly would too. There just seems to be price stickiness in gaming that refuses to move the sticker price of games anywhere and functions to make them go to other sources for revenue. My point was more of the fact that gamers always say they are willing to wait longer for games to be done, without understanding that the waiting is losing the devs money, and that may have to be made up for somehow.

The solution to being pressed for time is not to create a shitty ending to your epic trilogy. Paying $10 per pack of three side quests that let you catch up with old teammates is something many people would be glad to do but it wouldn't ruin the game for people who don't feel like paying and it actually increases replay value if they come out a month or two after the game. Paying $10 to see the 'real' ending months after reaching a terrible one in the actual game guarantees that even people willing to pay extra to finish the game are screwed.

The 'they ran out of time' excuse would work if the ending was simply poorly executed but it has lots of other problems. Granted the final cinematic was also obviously rushed but it really doesn't take that much time or money to give a satisfying ending. DA:O does it with a picture and paragraph of text for each important character/subplot. The writers and concept artists are freed up long before the project is done and would clearly have the time for doing something similar while everyone else is rushing to finish the rest of the game. That wouldn't fix the things that upset me most about the ending but it would address at least some of the problems fans had with the finale. They even did it for the final few seconds of the game so obviously someone had the idea but it was still limited to a single cliche.

P.S. I had never bought a game that cost more than $20 and even that is pretty rare. I am perfectly happy waiting for a year or two for a game I want to play to come around because I am not in any hurry to play them. I pre-ordered ME3 because I was that excited for it and the only reason I didn't buy the CE was that it had nothing I wanted. So, yes, I would have been perfectly happy paying four times as much for this game as any previous game because I am that interested in the story it is telling.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Telchar » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:38 am UTC

Spoiler:
Ending honestly reminded me a lot of Battlestar. Same rushed feeling, same "lets resolve all plot lines....sort of", same deus ex, but less closure. It's an order or two magnitude worse but it's the same kind of feeling for me. It's just blech. That could be because it's a game versus a movie so I felt more attached to the game, but even then....I dunno. At best it's mediocre, lazy, and lacks any closure. At worst it's like taking a shit on the best cupcake anyone has ever made.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Xeio » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:40 am UTC

I'm not particularly fond of the ending, but given that the ending comprises a total of what, like, 5 minutes of a 30 hour game? I think the game was still awesome. I think a lot of people are awfully hung up on the ending.

But that's just me. 8)
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Ghostbear » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:03 am UTC

This picture amused me (minor visual ending spoiler):
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Koa » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:09 am UTC

Ghostbear wrote:This picture amused me (minor visual ending spoiler):


Spoiler:
Image
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Obby » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:42 am UTC

Xeio wrote:I'm not particularly fond of the ending, but given that the ending comprises a total of what, like, 5 minutes of a 30 hour game? I think the game was still awesome. I think a lot of people are awfully hung up on the ending.

But that's just me. 8)


If you want to judge it by time played, then sure, it seems inconsequential. And certainly, the game mechanics are spot-on, the RPG elements found a good balance between 1 and 2, and the storylines dealing with the genophage and the Quarian and Geth are resolved extremely well, I think.

But... Surely you realize why people are hung up on the ending?
The story so far:
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Xeio » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:33 am UTC

Obby wrote:But... Surely you realize why people are hung up on the ending?
Sure, and I'm also familiar with the large effort to rank the game as low as possible on metacritic due to it. So maybe, but people are blowing it way out of proportion.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:36 am UTC

Xeio wrote:
Obby wrote:But... Surely you realize why people are hung up on the ending?
Sure, and I'm also familiar with the large effort to rank the game as low as possible on metacritic due to it. So maybe, but people are blowing it way out of proportion.
Yeah, its still a good game. Just the ending....

Anyway,
Spoiler:
Apparently if you have the ME iPhone app(which displays messages from your squadmates throughout the game), 24 hours after you beat the game you get sent this(replace with Ashley if she survived instead):Image
Between the tweets and this, it seems clear that we really haven't reached the end. The tweets could have just been damage control, but this seems to have been preprogrammed in.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:03 am UTC

Xeio wrote:I'm not particularly fond of the ending, but given that the ending comprises a total of what, like, 5 minutes of a 30 hour game? I think the game was still awesome. I think a lot of people are awfully hung up on the ending.

But that's just me. 8)

Narrative structure divides a story into setup, conflict, and resolution. The game does have several intertwined narratives but the ending of the game is also the resolution of the major story that defines the trilogy. The resolutions to all the smaller narratives in the game were great. The setup in the beginning was a little rushed but the conflict was very well done- starting off very engaging on Palaven and only increasing in intensity all the way through Thessia but still letting the player wind down between each episode. I think the ending still had the emotional punch built up over the whole trilogy it just failed to channel it meaningfully for most people, i.e. the game was great; that's what makes the ending so shocking and that's why almost no one is complaining about anything else. Also people tend to fixate on bad emotions over good so if a bad thing is the most prominent and final thing in the game...

I loved the peeks into the lives of all your old teammates and how different they are depending on old choices.
Spoiler:
Jack made me especially happy. She was so much happier and maybe even content without really losing her personality. She was a teacher in Grissom Academy in my game. I heard another option is to find her in the Cerberus base. I shudder to think what choices Shepard needs to make to drive Jack to Cerberus. Are there other ways she might show up in the story?

My second Shepard saved Morinth and I am really curios to see the Ardat'Yakshi monastery mission with Samara dead. I assume Morinth would come to save her sisters but would she still pretend she was a justicar? Would she have actually become a justicar in a perfectly shocking twist? Would her sisters realize she's not their mother and do they actually like Morinth better than Samara? I can definitely see how that mission will turn out almost exactly the same with Morinth but still have a very different dynamic.

I am definitely bringing Javik to Thessia the second time around. Garrus had a pretty hilarious conversation with Liara in the temple but Javik... oh, I have a feeling he'll rub Liara's nose in it so bad.

What did people think of From Ashes? I expected more story from the DLC- for $10 I thought I was getting something akin to the Shadow Broker DLC but instead we have only one short mission and almost no explanation of where this Prothean came from. "Oh, bee tee dubs, Cerberus unearthed a Prothean stasis chamber with a living Prothean but they couldn't figure out which button to press to open it so they just left it there unattended and all went on a coffee break. Now fight several waves of indoctrinated guys. Ok, mission done, you can unlock the pod now."

Javik himself is a decent character but like Vega comes in a bit too late and isn't nearly interesting enough to compare with the characters that have been developed over three games. They are also limited by the fact that Shepard speaks with his teammates a lot less in this game than either of the previous two so they actually get less than a third of the character development. Also the reading memories from DNA bit was such utter bullshit. I am perfectly fine with Protheans using organic molecules or even their own genetic code to communicate with each other both in real time and through generations. That would have actually been a surprisingly interesting sci-fi idea for Mass Effect. But getting specific memories from Jack's childhood from touching an object she touched once months ago? If you are going to make him read auras just say so. Minor annoyance in an otherwise decent character.

I heard Kelly Chambers is supposed to be around? I saved hear in ME2 but didn't see her anywhere in the game.

The conversation with drunk Tali had me laughing so hard... amazing. Drunk Ashley on the other hand had me really worried at first. Took me a few seconds to realize I had misconstrued what Vega said and they'd actually just been drinking.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby An Enraged Platypus » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:09 am UTC

RE Samara/Morinth, ME3 spoilers for the Morinth choice in ME2:

Spoiler:
You get screwed if you chose Morinth; she's not at the monastery saving her sisters. She sends you one email early on, and doesn't appear until the final level where (drumroll please) she's a Banshee they send against you. For all the subtleties of the choice on Omega and the efforts to keep her alive through the Collector Base, he only difference made in ME3 is that one vanilla-skillset Banshee out of the entire game is named 'Morinth', and you get an email.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:25 am UTC

An Enraged Platypus wrote:RE Samara/Morinth, ME3 spoilers for the Morinth choice in ME2:

Spoiler:
You get screwed if you chose Morinth; she's not at the monastery saving her sisters. She sends you one email early on, and doesn't appear until the final level where (drumroll please) she's a Banshee they send against you. For all the subtleties of the choice on Omega and the efforts to keep her alive through the Collector Base, he only difference made in ME3 is that one vanilla-skillset Banshee out of the entire game is named 'Morinth', and you get an email.


Well that's a let-down.

Regarding Kelly Chambers:

Spoiler:
I think you can talk to her early in the game somewhere on the Citadel. But after the Cerberus attack, if you go to the docks holding area, you can overhear a conversation that tells you Kelly was killed. It's a bit brutal. Apparently Cerberus came in, said "are you Kelly Chambers?", she said "yes", and they put a bullet in between her eyes.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Obby » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:15 am UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Regarding Kelly Chambers:

Spoiler:
I think you can talk to her early in the game somewhere on the Citadel. But after the Cerberus attack, if you go to the docks holding area, you can overhear a conversation that tells you Kelly was killed. It's a bit brutal. Apparently Cerberus came in, said "are you Kelly Chambers?", she said "yes", and they put a bullet in between her eyes.


That's kind of what confuses me about the game. Some elements are beautifully crafted, while other things just feel rushed and tacked on. I mean, I'm glad the devs polished off the genophage line and the Quarians and Geth line spectacularly, but you'd think that EA would give Bioware as much time as they needed to to ensure a thoroughly good experience given how much of a powerhouse Bioware was.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby VectorZero » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:36 am UTC

Obby wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:Regarding Kelly Chambers:

Spoiler:
I think you can talk to her early in the game somewhere on the Citadel. But after the Cerberus attack, if you go to the docks holding area, you can overhear a conversation that tells you Kelly was killed. It's a bit brutal. Apparently Cerberus came in, said "are you Kelly Chambers?", she said "yes", and they put a bullet in between her eyes.


That's kind of what confuses me about the game. Some elements are beautifully crafted, while other things just feel rushed and tacked on. I mean, I'm glad the devs polished off the genophage line and the Quarians and Geth line spectacularly, but you'd think that EA would give Bioware as much time as they needed to to ensure a thoroughly good experience given how much of a powerhouse Bioware was.

Spoiler:
Apparently you needed to have dinner with her in ME2 for her to appear at all, and I must've missed that on my replay for import. Bugger.

Anyhoo. I'm about to play Priority: Tuchanka and wanted to put down a few points. I really like the game so far; perhaps even more than the first two. Running around the citadel or the ship listening to background conversation is fantastic - the Asari commando in the hospital, or the Turian engineer in D24, really add depth to the story (far more than the visions of the little kid.) In the first two games I listened to Citadel news whilst doing other things, but often skipped minor details for time saving. Now I'll hang around, run between all floors after every mission just to get the next soundbite. Great stuff.

I like how the multiplayer ties into the N7 missions, with the special forces following on from Shepard's strike force to hold an area. Nice touch. Played a full game of ME: Infiltrator on iPhone, it's ok but really just a cover shooter with the branding slapped on. Haven't really used the Galaxy at War stuff from it yet. Got Datapad too, for GaW after about a day of playing the minigame I can get about +1.5% in a region x4 every 5 hours with some room to improve still, so if you don't like MP but have an iphone/ipad that's an option to boost Galaxy Preparedness.

On the downside ... it's REALLY easy. I'm playing Insanity with an imported character (Adept, singularity/warp/biotic mastery maxed, fitness level 4, no points in anything else, 41 points left over, carrying the M-90 Indra upgraded to Mark IV), and barely need my squadmates, just for the occasional overload. Maybe I should start at level 1 on insanity, but then where's the point of bringing through my Shepard? Not a fan of Diana Allers, but I don't have to interact with her often, so that's a scrub I guess.

I wonder if I'll still be so enthused once I hit the end.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Chen » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:09 pm UTC

Obby wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:Regarding Kelly Chambers:

Spoiler:
I think you can talk to her early in the game somewhere on the Citadel. But after the Cerberus attack, if you go to the docks holding area, you can overhear a conversation that tells you Kelly was killed. It's a bit brutal. Apparently Cerberus came in, said "are you Kelly Chambers?", she said "yes", and they put a bullet in between her eyes.


That's kind of what confuses me about the game. Some elements are beautifully crafted, while other things just feel rushed and tacked on. I mean, I'm glad the devs polished off the genophage line and the Quarians and Geth line spectacularly, but you'd think that EA would give Bioware as much time as they needed to to ensure a thoroughly good experience given how much of a powerhouse Bioware was.


For a side character in ME 2, there's actually quite a lot you can do with her in ME 3

Spoiler:
First as someone said you need to have dinner with her in ME 2 to get her to show up at all.

Now, if you don't tell her to protect herself from Cerberus by changing her name, yes she does get shot and killed during the coup and then nothing else happens. This happened during my paragon game.

But if you do get her to change her name, you can continue talking to her after the coup since she survives. It seems like you can romance her (got the prompt asking if you were seeing anyone which I was so I didn't explore it) and as I inadvertently found out you can get her to kill herself if you yell at her after she reveals that she was ordered to spy on you by the Illusive Man when you first met. This is what happened during my renegade playthrough. Presumably if you don't get her to commit suicide there are more interactions later (and presumably even more if you romance her).
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:37 pm UTC

VectorZero wrote:On the downside ... it's REALLY easy. I'm playing Insanity with an imported character (Adept, singularity/warp/biotic mastery maxed, fitness level 4, no points in anything else, 41 points left over, carrying the M-90 Indra upgraded to Mark IV), and barely need my squadmates, just for the occasional overload. Maybe I should start at level 1 on insanity, but then where's the point of bringing through my Shepard? Not a fan of Diana Allers, but I don't have to interact with her often, so that's a scrub I guess.

I only found a few battles in the whole game difficult. One in Grissom academy that you probably already got through and one in the final stretch of the ending mission. Both of them were made much more difficult by me not paying enough attention though.
Grissom:
Spoiler:
One had the invincible Atlas that I kept trying to kill first and it just wouldn't die. The worst part about that fight were the numerous engineers running around because their turrets are far and away the most dangerous enemy in the whole game, at least to my vanguard.

Final battle:
Spoiler:
Right before launching the rockets that kill the destroyer, there is a series of fights to protect them while it gets closer. The next to last was five or six brutes charging at me from all directions at the same time. They got my teammates before I even realized they were there but then I just headbutted (charge+nova) them all to death simultaneously. I was feeling invincible after that but then the very last wave came and I must have died ten+ times trying to get through it. First I was trying to fight near the rockets only to have my team get fried by the destroyer each time. Then I realized the side streets are safer from it but they turned out to offer insufficient cover from snipers so I'd get killed immediately after using nova. Finally I found a corner in one room that was easily defensible and offered plenty of cover but forced me into hand-to-hand combat with banshees that insta-kill you if their barriers aren't down (and sometimes even if they are). I killed the first two, then the next three, the next four, and a few times even the next wave (not sure if there were four or five in that one because everything is kind of a blur at that point). Joker kept blabbering something but it took me five deaths to put "Commander... rockets... ready... must... fire" together through the near constant voice distortion of biotic charge, nova and barrier explosions, banshee screams, and the reaper beam plowing through the street. Finally I realized harder and harder waves will keep on coming until I activate the rockets (or die). The way I survived in the final few waves were so specific to a vanguard that I really can't imagine how other classes would get through them. Having different classes actually handle the same situations differently would be pretty awesome game- and level-design and a big improvement over the previous two where I found myself playing the exact same way with soldier and engineer or vanguard and infiltrator respectively.


Diana Allers fell smack in the middle of uncanny valley for me. I don't know if it was the lighting or the photo-realistic textures or what but just... ugh.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Okita » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:25 pm UTC

Apparently Engineers can help repair Atlas which makes them a priority over the Atlas itself.

I find that you had this sort of trouble as a vanguard though. As an Engineer, I found other Engineers a godsend because they would deploy their turret which I would promptly sabotage and use for more Dakka. Then, when only the turret was left among the smoking corpses of my enemies, an overload + sniper rifle shot was a 2-hit kill for every turret.

Just goes to show you how different classes will inevitably find different things difficult and thus have different runs on the game.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby An Enraged Platypus » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:33 pm UTC

RE the final battle:

Spoiler:
As an Infiltrator, the bit with the six Brutes wasn't actually all that difficult. I had a fully upgraded Widow with all the damage mods, which kills them in two headshots from cloak. They appear around you in a circle and don't charge until they get close, so I ordered my squad to hug me, picked a Brute, and shot it in the head whilst ordering Liara to warp it and Garrus to shoot it with his widow. This was sufficient to kill one, and after every brute I fell back to where it appeared from. I did this for the first three, whereupon I cloaked and ordered Liara and Garrus to follow me into the building with all the ammo and medpacks. There's also a Hydra Missile in there, which I picked up before (this is where it gets evil) ordering Liara and Garrus to stand in the open and take potshots at the Brutes while I stayed cloaked. All the Brutes charged them, so I shot the Hydra at where Liara and Garrus had just been downed, triple kill. Then I popped Unity (or whatever it's called these days), The Normandy radioed that the missiles were ready, and I sprinted for the controls under cloak.

Then came the final boss battle with Marauder Shields. I wiped >.<
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:26 pm UTC

Infiltrator with a fully-upgraded Black Widow rifle and Prothean plasma rifle (IMO it's the best thing from the "From Ashes" expansion), both with scope and barrel upgrades. The combination nailed my cooldown rate for my powers, but I never really relied on them much to begin with (other than the ammo powers where cooldown is kind of irrelevant) and the stopping power of the Black Widow combined with not having to go looking for thermal-clips for the assault-rifle was completely worth it IMO. The fight after I'd finished upgrading the Widow I couldn't stop maniacally giggling as I'd take out Atlases in two or three shots to the pilot's compartment, and blowing through those Guardian shields (though I'd long since gotten the "Mail Slot" achievement for shooting them in the head through the view slit, but then again I enjoy the satisfaction of making a tight shot like that).
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby omgryebread » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:45 pm UTC

Banshees give me a lot of trouble. Between the teleporting and never looking for cover, they push well. The biotic attack makes it harder to line up shots in a sniper rifle, and unlike brutes they're kinda hard to hit with an unscoped rifle.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Telchar » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:09 pm UTC

I just ran around as a Sentinel with the Grenade Pistol and mega-warped everything to death every few seconds. I generally ran around with EDI and either Javik for more muscle or Liara for combos with singularity.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:18 pm UTC

I figure this is a good place to ask as any. I have tried to avoid spoilers, but I have seen the trailers. Should I get this game? What's the consensus on the ending, if there's a consensus?
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:20 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:I figure this is a good place to ask as any. I have tried to avoid spoilers, but I have seen the trailers. Should I get this game? What's the consensus on the ending, if there's a consensus?
The consensus seems to be the game is very good and worth getting. The consensus on the ending seems to be that it's not very good, at best; at worst, its horrible.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:24 pm UTC

Not very good at best sounds...not very good.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:31 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Not very good at best sounds...not very good.


The vast majority of the game is very enjoyable, and there are portions where they did wrap things up in various subplots very well. I didn't get the optimal ending to one of the subplots and I'm still going to go back through ME2 to change one of my decisions so I can deal with that subplot and see the resolution there.

The grand wrapup, at least for those of us who saw it with the high expectations set by the rest of the series and the rest of ME3 itself, was infuriating. To have some forewarning that the presented ending is ... suboptimal may blunt the disappointment on getting to that stage.

All in all it's completely worth the ~$60 to get, especially if you've felt involved with the characters from ME 1 and 2.

It's just that it really needed to be an $80 game to finish it right.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:53 pm UTC

The problematic part is almost entirely contained in the last 5 minutes of the game. Most of the rest of the game is great and the few bad parts are only mildly annoying.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:11 pm UTC

Guess I'll be prepared then, and laugh at it when it comes (in lieu of crying).
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby An Enraged Platypus » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:50 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Guess I'll be prepared then, and laugh at it when it comes (in lieu of crying).


I'll try to be vague and non-spoilery here. You should play it up to the point where you have just been forced to kill three husks and then a Marauder with a pistol. This is when you know to be alert. At some point in the next 15-20 minutes Admiral Hackett will radio you. You should alt-F4 as soon as Shepard acts on what he has to say.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby An Enraged Platypus » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:53 pm UTC

Also, I laughed hard (SPOILERS):

Spoiler:
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:54 pm UTC

An Enraged Platypus wrote:
Weeks wrote:Guess I'll be prepared then, and laugh at it when it comes (in lieu of crying).


I'll try to be vague and non-spoilery here. You should play it up to the point where you have just been forced to kill three husks and then a Marauder with a pistol. This is when you know to be alert. At some point in the next 15-20 minutes Admiral Hackett will radio you. You should alt-F4 as soon as Shepard acts on what he has to say.
The point I say is when you see yourself randomly being raised up by a white platform. Just quit there.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby An Enraged Platypus » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:15 pm UTC

It's interesting how Penny Arcade aren't fazed by the ending at all. See their latest strip:
[url]
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/03/16[/url]
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:13 pm UTC

An Enraged Platypus wrote:It's interesting how Penny Arcade aren't fazed by the ending at all. See their latest strip:
[url]
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/03/16[/url]
I don't understand the media being like "you don't like the ending because it isn't happy". Seriously:
Spoiler:
I can deal with bleak. I can even deal with the fact previous decisions don't matter(because that can make the universe seem really bleak). What I can't deal with, is an ending that doesn't make any fucking sense.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:24 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
An Enraged Platypus wrote:It's interesting how Penny Arcade aren't fazed by the ending at all. See their latest strip:
[url]
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/03/16[/url]
I don't understand the media being like "you don't like the ending because it isn't happy". Seriously:
Spoiler:
I can deal with bleak. I can even deal with the fact previous decisions don't matter(because that can make the universe seem really bleak). What I can't deal with, is an ending that doesn't make any fucking sense.


Spoiler:
This, doubly in light of the number of fans that have point-blank expressed that they were looking for coherence. Over and over again people are saying they could have dealt with sad or bleak, or bittersweet, and that's not their complaint but a failure to maintain coherent story structure in the finale is the complaint.


Gaming industry media (like professional game reviewers) have been pretty far removed from the fanbase for some time now, but this really proves that even those who claim to be voices 'independent' of the industry have themselves become completely divorced from the gamers themselves if they can't even address the issues being raised rather than building strawmen.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:47 pm UTC

I think if there is a lesson as a game developer I would take away from this, is that narrative driven games need to start doing some sort of test screenings like movies do. Hollywood doesn't seem to have too much of a problem re-shooting an ending if it doesn't go over well with a test audience. Maybe games need to start doing something similar?
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:04 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Dark567 wrote:
An Enraged Platypus wrote:It's interesting how Penny Arcade aren't fazed by the ending at all. See their latest strip:
[url]
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/03/16[/url]
I don't understand the media being like "you don't like the ending because it isn't happy". Seriously:
Spoiler:
I can deal with bleak. I can even deal with the fact previous decisions don't matter(because that can make the universe seem really bleak). What I can't deal with, is an ending that doesn't make any fucking sense.


Spoiler:
This, doubly in light of the number of fans that have point-blank expressed that they were looking for coherence. Over and over again people are saying they could have dealt with sad or bleak, or bittersweet, and that's not their complaint but a failure to maintain coherent story structure in the finale is the complaint.


Gaming industry media (like professional game reviewers) have been pretty far removed from the fanbase for some time now, but this really proves that even those who claim to be voices 'independent' of the industry have themselves become completely divorced from the gamers themselves if they can't even address the issues being raised rather than building strawmen.

Either that or it was a deliberate troll. Wouldn't put it past PA.

Dark567 wrote:I think if there is a lesson as a game developer I would take away from this, is that narrative driven games need to start doing some sort of test screenings like movies do. Hollywood doesn't seem to have too much of a problem re-shooting an ending if it doesn't go over well with a test audience. Maybe games need to start doing something similar?

I thought they already did? With beta testing and whatnot. Now that the game is released into the wild, the furore over the ending is kind of feeding on itself because of how many people are complaining about it, which gives people confidence to shout louder and louder about it. In beta testing or "pre-screening", they would probably have had some comments about the ending, but nothing strong enough to make them change it.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:21 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:I thought they already did? With beta testing and whatnot. Now that the game is released into the wild, the furore over the ending is kind of feeding on itself because of how many people are complaining about it, which gives people confidence to shout louder and louder about it. In beta testing or "pre-screening", they would probably have had some comments about the ending, but nothing strong enough to make them change it.
Beta-testing is different then screening though, in the movie sense. Testing is QA, its making sure the game works and there aren't any bugs. From my understanding of the industry dev's don't ask the testers on their opinions on the narrative.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby maybeagnostic » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:06 pm UTC

How can you screen something that has 16 very different endings based on a player's choices over the course of three games? Sure, they didn't have this problem with ME3 but they should have. I also don't think screening would have helped in this case because I am not convinced the people who created the rest of this game could have looked at the ending and been satisfied with their work.

SlyReaper, do they often troll their audience? A parody of a strawman played straight is probably an effective way to troll their readership but does PA really need traffic from upset gamers?
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:09 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:I think if there is a lesson as a game developer I would take away from this, is that narrative driven games need to start doing some sort of test screenings like movies do. Hollywood doesn't seem to have too much of a problem re-shooting an ending if it doesn't go over well with a test audience. Maybe games need to start doing something similar?


Bolded names worked on 1. Italicized started with 2. Not making a judgement on that, just identifying. On 1 & 2, unless otherwise noted, credited as a writer. On 3 I'm not listing titles because.. Mac was credited as Lead, Cathleen as just Writer, and the others? Senior Writers, all. How .. exactly.. you can have one lead, one standard, and the rest Senior is beyond me, but I don't understand job titling, so I am not the best judge.


Mass Effect 1 (Nov 2007) (Six writers)

Drew Karpyshyn lead writer
Lukas Kristjanson
Chris L'Etoile
Mike Laidlaw
Mac Walters
Patrick Weekes

Mass Effect 2 (Jan of 2010) (Nine Writers)

Chris Hepler
Drew Karpyshyn
Brian Kindregan
Lukas Kristjanson
Chris L'Etoile
Cathleen Rootsaert dialogue editor
Jay Turner
Mac Walters lead writer
Patrick Weekes


Mass Effect 3 (2012, listed as 2011 on IMDB) (Five writers)

John Dombrow
Neil Pollner
Cathleen Rootsaert
Mac Walters
Patrick Weekes




My point?

3/5ths of the writers of ME3 have worked on a prior ME game. Which sounds good, until you remember there were only five writers, one less than the first one, and four less than #2.

They don't need to do test screenings, they need to keep the same writing staff for as long as they can.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:33 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:My point?

3/5ths of the writers of ME3 have worked on a prior ME game. Which sounds good, until you remember there were only five writers, one less than the first one, and four less than #2.

They don't need to do test screenings, they need to keep the same writing staff for as long as they can.


Also they changed the lead-writer midway through 2 (2's credits in the game manual credit both Drew K and Mac W as "Lead Writer"). So even beyond keeping the same guys writing the material, not shuffling them like cards would probably be a good idea too. I'd think it doesn't speak highly of the potential for 'professional drama' that could have been going on with the writing staff when of the previous game's writing staff two thirds of them (including the original "Lead Writer" who probably was involved with creating the entire story arc from the beginning) either quit or were fired from the ME series by the time ME3 went in to early production drafts.
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