[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

[Monika]

*hugs for Azrael for having to go off hormones* I hope you can start again soon.

*hugs for Jessica*
What can I do as a cis queer woman to combat anti-trans misconceptions and hate among the mentioned groups? Will it work?

[Azrael001]

Thanks Monika, I can go back on whenever I want, but I am going to bring my parents forward, even at the expense of time, as they will be my best allies, once they are convinced that I know what I am talking about.

As for ridiculous anti-trans misconceptions, I think that the neurology angle is the best one. The evidence suggests that being trans isn't a choice, but even if it was that should also be fine, so that argument might eventually cause problems...

[drash]

When I came out as gay, I expected to hear a lot of "it's a phase," but I was surprised by the number of people that told me "it's a phase that I went through," which is relevant information that decreased my expectation that I was going to be gay for all of my life (it's still above 95% that that's the case, but it's less than 100%.).

Huh. How big is that number, relatively speaking? I ask because in my life I've encountered possibly one person that would have a story like this. More than a few heterosexually married bisexuals, but they still identify as such. (Of my maternal grandmother's seven genetic descendants, two are straight, two are gay, and three are bisexual. The bisexuals all married heteronormatively).

The coming out process for me did have a sort of equivalent- people would be suddenly honest about things they would normally keep hidden, often quite random. They would tell me about abortions they'd had, unfaithfullness, accidental pregnancies... I can only speculate that they saw my coming out as an emotionally intimate act and tried to respond in kind, even though that was sort of the opposite of the point.

[Cathy]

When I came out as gay, I expected to hear a lot of "it's a phase," but I was surprised by the number of people that told me "it's a phase that I went through," which is relevant information that decreased my expectation that I was going to be gay for all of my life (it's still above 95% that that's the case, but it's less than 100%.).

Huh. How big is that number, relatively speaking? I ask because in my life I've encountered possibly one person that would have a story like this. More than a few heterosexually married bisexuals, but they still identify as such. (Of my maternal grandmother's seven genetic descendants, two are straight, two are gay, and three are bisexual. The bisexuals all married heteronormatively).

The coming out process for me did have a sort of equivalent- people would be suddenly honest about things they would normally keep hidden, often quite random. They would tell me about abortions they'd had, unfaithfullness, accidental pregnancies... I can only speculate that they saw my coming out as an emotionally intimate act and tried to respond in kind, even though that was sort of the opposite of the point.

I am bisexual married hetero-normally (occasionally I feel guilty about that for no clear reason) and I definitely still identify as bisexual. I have known a few who changed their personal orientation based on what sex they were dating, lesbian to straight, etc.

I too have people respond in intimate ways when I reveal something more taboo or personal, whether it's

Spoiler:

being raped, having an abusive father, anxiety/depression, or bisexuality.

[Vaniver]

Huh. How big is that number, relatively speaking?

In relative numbers, I believe it was everyone who mentioned the 'phase' bit. In absolute numbers, it was between 2 and 4.

The bisexuals all married heteronormatively).

I'm curious why you put the "normatively" in there.

I can only speculate that they saw my coming out as an emotionally intimate act and tried to respond in kind, even though that was sort of the opposite of the point.

This is generally how people behave about intimate things.

[Monika]

Now that you mention this "emotionally intimate" stuff something makes more sense to me: When I came out as bisexual to my siblings, they reacted positively - but my husband kinda freaked out about it. Even though he was totally supportive of me dating women all the time.

So now I am out to some colleagues (because I meet with the LGBT group and this intersected with the women's group once a year) and my hackerspace (which turned out to be very lucky, as a gay colleague has started driving together with me there), but not really to my "old" friends that I have in common with my husband and sister.

[PerchloricAcid]

I never actually did the "coming out", I used to casually tell people that I'm bi if that somehow came up in conversations. So, most of my friends and acquaintances know about that, because I talk about it freely.
In high school, a lot of bi-curious girls asked me if I was okay with them trying "lesbian stuff" with me. Some of them didn't ask, they simply hit on me (of course, I hit on many girls too, it wasn't really a one-way street). All of those girls I found very attractive, so it was all-in-all fun.
However, I've never actually told my family about this. I'm not sure how they'd react at all. I've never felt any pressure to tell them that, probably because I'm currently in a heterosexual relationship [that they, btw, do not accept, because he's, they say, a different nationality ].

So, uh, I'd suggest talking openly about your sexual orientation. Not in a forced manner, though. Just... don't stay silent when thoughts like "Well, I'm gay, and..." or "You say you don't know any bisexuals? Well, I'm one of them" come up. Say it proudly and smile.
Most people, even those who are into anti-lgbt hate speech, get shocked; some even start apologizing. Most people respect bravery and the "I'm l/g/b/t, so what?" attitude.

[drash]

The bisexuals all married heteronormatively).

I'm curious why you put the "normatively" in there.

To distinguish from alternative arrangements such as polyamorous or open relationships, and to summon up a host of implications about external social pressures and conformity that the word "heterosexual" doesn't necessarily trigger. I worry that bisexuals' apparent high skew towards heterosexual monogamy is forced by the social and political burdens that tend to be placed on homosexual couples.

I can only speculate that they saw my coming out as an emotionally intimate act and tried to respond in kind, even though that was sort of the opposite of the point.

This is generally how people behave about intimate things.

My sexual orientation is not a particularly intimate facet of my identity- even when I'm not with a partner or date in public, I'm comfortable wearing accessories that advertise the fact. It's part of my "brand", as they say. So it's interesting to see whether people interpret self-outings as a sharing of secrets, rather than as part of a process wherein the secrecy is eliminated. It tracked more closely with their degree of comfort with gay people than it did with our depth of friendship- my (amicably-) ex-girlfriend of seven years merely congratulated me and offered support, but casual acquaintances dropped a few bombs on me.

[lanicita]

The bisexuals all married heteronormatively).

I'm curious why you put the "normatively" in there.

To distinguish from alternative arrangements such as polyamorous or open relationships, and to summon up a host of implications about external social pressures and conformity that the word "heterosexual" doesn't necessarily trigger. I worry that bisexuals' apparent high skew towards heterosexual monogamy is forced by the social and political burdens that tend to be placed on homosexual couples.

Well, also, if only 10% of girls are going to be possibly attracted to me, and 90% of guys are, then my chance of ending up with a guy instead of a girl is much higher, even if I am equally attracted to people of both genders.

The correct word (especially in this thread, where there are a whole bunch of bi people in hetero relationships, including me) would really have been heterosexually. There are definitely external social and political burdens, but a personal marriage isn't heteronormative. IMO, the point of this thread and the LGBT community in whole is to let people be who they are, and be with who they love. When you start to talk about specific relationships as "heteronormative," you start to degrade that mission. Society, and the way we are raised to think about and talk about romantic relationships, are all highly heteronormative, but my relationship is just heterosexual.

[Brace]

As a visibly trans person I've had people on the street come up to me and share intimate secrets, often about a criminal history on their part. It's been... bizarre.

[Jessica]

*hugs for Jessica*
What can I do as a cis queer woman to combat anti-trans misconceptions and hate among the mentioned groups? Will it work?

I don't really know what people can do other than being supportive of trans people, and calling people on their shit. For the most part, I've found few people actually change their transphobic or cissexist ideas, because they are rooted in essentialism, which seems to be very difficult to combat.

[Cathy]

IMO, the point of this thread and the LGBT community in whole is to let people be who they are, and be with who they love. When you start to talk about specific relationships as "heteronormative," you start to degrade that mission. Society, and the way we are raised to think about and talk about romantic relationships, are all highly heteronormative, but my relationship is just heterosexual.

Sorry lanicita! For some reason off the top of my head I just wrote hetero-normative and not heterosexual. I did not mean to cause offense by that.

It saddens me that my mom was so relieved that I married a man instead of a woman.

[lanicita]

IMO, the point of this thread and the LGBT community in whole is to let people be who they are, and be with who they love. When you start to talk about specific relationships as "heteronormative," you start to degrade that mission. Society, and the way we are raised to think about and talk about romantic relationships, are all highly heteronormative, but my relationship is just heterosexual.

Sorry lanicita! For some reason off the top of my head I just wrote hetero-normative and not heterosexual. I did not mean to cause offense by that.

It saddens me that my mom was so relieved that I married a man instead of a woman.

It's okay! I was talking more to drash, because they did purposely choose the word "heteronormative". It didn't offend me, but it also didn't seem like an accurate word to describe any relationship.

[Van]

As a visibly trans person I've had people on the street come up to me and share intimate secrets, often about a criminal history on their part. It's been... bizarre.

Ok, I've gotten the random comments, but... criminal history? How does that play out?

"Psst. Hey. Hey lady. I stole some DVDs from Walmart once."

[Brace]

People sitting down next to me at the bus stop or on the bus. Standard smalltalk, and then they'll just throw in that they just got out of prison and are headed to a friend's/to the greyhound station to get back to cali/to nowhere in particular, and they'll tell me what they were in for and etc. One of these people was genderqueer in some unspecified way so that was actually a more pleasant case of dissonance. People will also occasionally, in the same context (smalltalk in random public places), tell me I look like a dangerous person. Which is interesting, because it's only ever happened when I'm in a cheerful disposition.

[PM 2Ring]

However, I've never actually told my family about this. I'm not sure how they'd react at all. I've never felt any pressure to tell them that, probably because I'm currently in a heterosexual relationship [that they, btw, do not accept, because he's, they say, a different nationality ].

Oh dear. * hugs*
FWIW, even in a country like Australia, where we allegedly embrace multi-culturalism, there are still plenty of people who have problems with their family not being happy with the ethnic origins of their partner. But I gather that sort of thing is a bigger concern in your part of the world... OTOH, would your family be more upset if your partner was of the "right" nationality but of the "wrong" gender?

BTW, here's a fun article related to your username. From Derek Lowe's excellent and humourous series of articles, Things I Won't Work With.

[PerchloricAcid]

would your family be more upset if your partner was of the "right" nationality but of the "wrong" gender?

Well, I'm not sure, I guess not.
I consider my partner being a partner that most parents would like for their child. I've considered the possibility that he's the right nationality but pretty much an ass of a person: I think that would be also wrong. The conclusion is: there is a certain set of stuff my partner should and should not be in order to be accepted. I gave up on them accepting anyway. It is kinda sad when my father visits (I live in a different town) and starts playing with my wooden frog, and I want to say that I got it from my boyfriend, but refrain so there would be no quarrel, but that's all stuff I've got to live with.

Thanks for the care

[Virtual_Aardvark]

would your family be more upset if your partner was of the "right" nationality but of the "wrong" gender?

Replace nationality with Jewish and this is something I really worry about. I heartily believe my Grandma will be happy as long as I date someone Jewish (not a guarantee anyways) but would be *privately* sad about lower chances of great-grandkids. The rest of my immediate family I'm dead certain couldn't care less with the exception of a very homophobic grandfather who I don't speak to. My Uncle would actually be thrilled I think to have more obvious queerness in the family.

Spoiler for ramble

Spoiler:

I worry more about the father of my baby cousins (13 and 10 so maybe not babies anymore). He has very big expectations for both of them in line with the Jewish-American Dream^tm and I think views me as a potential obstacle to that. I'm the most religious one in my generation (Only one who's been Bat Mitzvah'd) but also the most liberal. In an ideal world I think he would want me to be tattoo-free and on my way to being married to a nice conservative-Jewish man and having a whole passel of Jewish kids. For now he can't decide if he wants me around as a role model (Bat Mitzvah) or as far from influencing his sons as possible (tattoos). I worry that doing something like bringing a girlfriend or not-boyfriend to Pesach would give him a reason to start pushing me away. I really want to be a liberal, queer presence in my cousins' life because I'm terrified of what happens if one of them comes out as pretty much anything (including atheist). But if I become more obviously queer will I still be a presence in their lives?

[Azrael001]

Spoiler'd Rant:

Spoiler:

So I'm back from another weekend with my parents, and it seems like they not only don't trust my ability to know myself, but their version of being supportive is telling me something along the lines of "if you were less pathetic, maybe you'd have more self esteem, and not feel so crappy". Apparently reading information written by experts doesn't count, and I need to go and talk to experts (or whatever it is that CAMH has). It is clear that they really don't want to believe me, and this sucks. I now know what I am missing, and this also sucks. I really want to start up the estrogen again, but I said that I wouldn't. Honesty sucks.

[Jessica]

Spoiler'd Rant:

Spoiler:

So I'm back from another weekend with my parents, and it seems like they not only don't trust my ability to know myself, but their version of being supportive is telling me something along the lines of "if you were less pathetic, maybe you'd have more self esteem, and not feel so crappy". Apparently reading information written by experts doesn't count, and I need to go and talk to experts (or whatever it is that CAMH has). It is clear that they really don't want to believe me, and this sucks. I now know what I am missing, and this also sucks. I really want to start up the estrogen again, but I said that I wouldn't. Honesty sucks.

*hugs*

[Azrael001]

Thanks, knowing that there are people that can empathize with me is quite comforting.

On a more positive note, I am starting up the anti-androgens again, which should help shift my perspective away from looking at everything in the worst possible light. But it'll take a couple of weeks for them to kick in again. Also, I just won a doughnut from my coffee. All hail Roll up the Rim.

[Monika]

Spoiler'd Rant:

Spoiler:

So I'm back from another weekend with my parents, and it seems like they not only don't trust my ability to know myself, but their version of being supportive is telling me something along the lines of "if you were less pathetic, maybe you'd have more self esteem, and not feel so crappy". Apparently reading information written by experts doesn't count, and I need to go and talk to experts (or whatever it is that CAMH has). It is clear that they really don't want to believe me, and this sucks. I now know what I am missing, and this also sucks. I really want to start up the estrogen again, but I said that I wouldn't. Honesty sucks.

Have you made them read Welcoming Our Trans Family and Friends - PFLAG [PDF]?

*hugs*

[Azrael001]

There was a similar one that I sent them a few months ago, but it's not a problem of them not understanding that trans is a thing, it's more that they don't believe that I am trans. They think that I've got some issue stemming from living with my negligent, and emotionally abusive mother until I was 12.

[Virtual_Aardvark]

This may be something that takes time. A lot of parents are theoretically accepting but won't really get it immediately. A good friend of mine couldn't convince his mom that he was trans until his body and voice started to catch up and she was faced with the reality of a young man standing in front of her. As the hormones start to do their thing, and you present consistently female it may finally "click" for them.

Best of luck.

[lanicita]

I just came out to my whole grad school class

[Aaeriele]

I just came out to my whole grad school class

Cool, I take it that it went well?

[lanicita]

Yeah, although it's a very liberal program at a very liberal school so I didn't expect any problems. It's just easier to give my opinions knowing that people understand that I'm not straight. We have a lot of gender and sexuality conversations.

[PerchloricAcid]

Congratulations!

[Shivahn]

That's really cool! I'm glad it went well!

[sambot5]

[deleted for IRL safety reasons]

[natraj]

yay for your friend/dad being cool with it! and congrats on college, that must be a huge weight off.

for whatever the opinions of a stranger on the internet are worth, you sound remarkably mature when it comes to dealing with your mother. it can be so hard to find the balance between staying respectful/not losing your temper and standing your ground, especially when it is people very close to you saying things like that.

[joshz]

Congrats on CMU! Feel free to ask me if you have any questions about it. (you want to do CS, right?)

That sucks about your mom, but it's great that your dad is chill about it.

[Amie]

Congratulations to all those who came out to their family/friends

Today, when I was going back up into my office in the lift, I heard a girl talk about her girlfriend and her male friend's boyfriend out in the open with her colleague. There was a space full of people staring at her but she didn't give a flying fuck. This may not be a big deal in many places but where I live, it can be especially hard for people to express their queerness in front of elderly random strangers. I wanted to hug her for being awesome.

Also, she was checking me out which was flattering...

[Shivahn]

Huh, I've been having trans related and transition dreams a lot all of a sudden.

[Jessica]

This shit is wearing me down.

I know I shouldn't care. But I do.

I got a bit ranty, and I use some triggering words, so I'm sorry, and I've spoilered it.

Spoiler:

I need to get off the internet. Reading scores of blog posts, twitter entries and facebook statuses about how trans women are the oppressors, trying to rape lesbians because we have penises and are thus male bodied makes me want to cry.

I know, don't read it. It's hard not to when every trans woman I know is getting bombarded by hate mail, hateful comments and attacks. I'm glad I'm not being directly attacked, but that's because I'm too small, and have little presence online. If I had a blog, I'm sure I'd be attacked right now.

I'm afraid to go to Pleasure and possibilities. Honestly, I'm afraid that there will be people there trying to document who goes in and then labeling them all rapists online. I'm afraid that my fiance and I will have to deal with this shit forever.

Everything comes down to the fact that trans women have or had penises. Just because of that fact, it must be enshrined in the culture that we are not attractive, except to fetishists. People who are attracted to us are freaks, and people who aren't are radical people fighting against the oppression from trans people, trying to get in their pants. I'm not a fucking fetish object, and I'm not a man, no matter what you may think. And yet, my saying this simple fact makes so many lesbians angry. How dare I say that my penis is not male. It clearly is, because of chromosomes, or penis power, or how I was born. But, if any other woman wants to fight for inclusion, fight for the chance to be cared about, then they are lauded as heroes. There are people who say that only white people are attractive, and that they can't control the fact that they don't find people of other races attractive. Same with able bodied vs disabled bodies. Same with feminine vs masculine. And yet, all of these groups do fight for their selves, fight against a culture that views them as wrong, unattractive, unlovable. But, as a trans woman, I shouldn't fight. I should just accept that "real lesbians" will never find me attractive because I'm "really" male. I should accept that real men won't find me attractive for the same reason. I should accept that if someone found me attractive one minute and then if I tell them that I'm trans, and that attraction disappears, that it's my fault, not the fault of a faulty society.

I'm lucky. I have a loving fiance. She is awesome, and finds me attractive even in my current state. I'm also lucky to have pretty much every other privilege available, other than cis, male and hetero. I'm lucky that no one has beaten me, attacked me, threatened me or in another way try to harm my person. I've had people try and stop me from getting jobs because I'm trans, and I'm sure that if I lost this job I wouldn't get another one. I know that, as a trans woman, I'm pretty much fucked when it comes to people ever just accepting who I am, and that there will be people who will sir me every day on the phone, or ask me about my surgery, or wonder why my voice is so low, or ask me what my name was before. I know that, if I try and be more socially active, I have to pretend I'm cis, because bringing up my transness makes people uncomfortable. If I try and be out and proud to be trans, then I'm going to be pushed off to the side, because trans women are "problematic".

I'm sorry this got a bit ranty. I'll spoiler it. I just need to put things down. Because I'm tired. Emotionally drained. I just want to be who I am, and to be free to work, to love, to be loved, and to live my life without fearing for it constantly.

This is one of the few places I feel safe. I shouldn't because I know that we're a short google search away from public, but I do feel safe here. I hope that I don't bring down legions upon us.

[Cathy]

Jessica:

I love you. We care about you here. I'll probably never meet you but over the course of several years of reading your posts and threads I've come to feel like I really care about you as a person.

I, too, have immense problems with people's unfiltered vitriol being smeared across the screen of my computer. I am so sorry that you have been exposed to so much of it. My solution was to remove myself from what was harming me.

We only have so much time on this planet. There are only so many things we can try to change. Those people probably aren't them.

You have changed me. I am much better educated and empathetic and understanding of trans* issues and people. I want you to know that you have changed my life and others lives.

<3 Hugs.

[Azrael001]

Cathy just did an excellent job of describing my feelings as well. Jessica, you're awesome, and don't ever forget it. *Hugs*

I agree that this is one of the places that I feel safest on the internet. And for the most part, the fora members are among my favorite people. So thanks for that.

In other news, I'm much more calm now that I've resumed the spiro. I still want to start the estrogen again, but it doesn't feel like it'll be the end of the world if I don't. Still irritated that I agreed to stop in the first place.

[PerchloricAcid]

Jessica, I'm so sorry to hear you're going through all that.
It was so sad to read what you're going through. However, it's really wonderful that you have a loving fiancé! There are lots of hateful people out there, but when you have somebody loving at home, it sure does make it all damn easier.

I really like the way you've written down your emotions; so painfully honest, so simple, yet so heavy. I would like to use some of your quotes if I ever have a conversation with a trans-hating person in the future.
A lot of people hate trans people because they lack education or are mis-educated on the topic. And a lot of those people probably aren't hating people, they just have no idea about it all. I tried to talk sense into some people about this stuff and have succeeded at least partially. I figured some things you wrote here would help in explaining what being trans is really about.
Would that be okay with you? If not, I wouldn't do so.

[Jessica]

No problem.

And thank you

[PerchloricAcid]

Thank you too