Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

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Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Gellert1984 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:01 pm UTC

link

Spoiler:
A southeastern Pennsylvania church subjected members of a youth group to a mock kidnapping and interrogations without telling them it was staged, and the outraged mother of one 14-year-old girl has filed a complaint with police.

The pastor of the Glad Tidings Assembly of God in Middletown said the church is "so saddened" that the girl was traumatized at the Wednesday evening youth meeting.

But the pastor, John Lanza, said Friday there have been emails of support from other students at the church, about 10 miles southeast of Harrisburg, because the intent was to prepare them for what they might encounter as missionaries. He didn't disclose the names of those involved but said the mock kidnappers included an off-duty police officer and a retired Army captain.

"It was a youth event, to illustrate what others have encountered on a regular basis," he said, adding that the focus of the lesson was "the persecuted church" in other countries.

Lanza said there were about 17 students at the meeting and the mock kidnappers covered the students' heads, put them in a van and interrogated them. Neither the students nor their parents were told about the raid beforehand, he said, though it was discussed with the parents of one youth who might have health issues.

TV station WHTM interviewed the girl who complained.

"They pulled my chair out from underneath me, and then they told me to get on the ground," she told the station. "I had my hands behind my back. They said, 'Just do as I say, and you won't be hurt.'"

The girl said the teens were taken to the pastor's house, where it appeared he was being assaulted. Eventually, she said, the adults in charge revealed it was a staged event.

"They heard me crying," the girl said. "Why not right then and there tell us it was a joke, when you see me crying?"

Lanza said the church has conducted similar events at least twice before, adding that "there was much thought given to the safety aspect."

"If anyone was ever uncomfortable, they would be removed" from the exercise, Lanza said, though part of the idea was to shock the students with the experience.

Lower Swatara Township police Chief Richard Wiley declined to comment until an investigation into the raid is complete. The names of the mother and daughter who complained haven't been made public.

There could be consequences if the teens didn't know what was going to happen and didn't agree to be a part of the event, Dauphin County First Deputy District Attorney Fran Chardo said.

"It's extremely disturbing," Chardo told WHTM.

Tom Copeland, who studies international affairs and terrorism at Geneva College, a Beaver Falls school that emphasizes a "Christian worldview," questioned the wisdom of submitting a youth group to a mock kidnapping.

"It just seems inappropriate for that age group. You would think there would be permission from the parents," Copeland said, adding that he's never heard of anything like that happening at a church.

He said that while there have been highly publicized episodes of violence directed against Christian missionaries in other countries, it seems those countries' local religious groups are more at risk.

One security expert said role-playing training is sometimes conducted "at the quasi-military level" for groups that are going to work in war zones.

Daniel Karson, chairman of business intelligence and investigations at Kroll, a worldwide risk consulting company with headquarters in New York, said the idea of conflict zone training "is to acclimate someone to a possible situation that might arise." The training might involve everything from what items they should take to the country to a review of who they're meeting and security conditions there, he said.

Lanza said members of the church have made numerous mission trips overseas and have learned to be cautious. He said they were planning a trip to Mexico but reviewed current news and advisories and decided it was unsafe.

Lanza said he "would love to" apologize to the girl and her mother but feels he can't until the police investigation is done. He said the church wants to keep doing the program but would make changes.

"I would find a way that we could continue to keep the shock value," he said, "but I would find a way to inform the parents (beforehand)."


TL;DR - A church in pennsylvania thought it'd be a great idea to simulate a kidnapping on 17 teenage wannabe missionaries using a retired army captain and an off-duty cop, without informing them or their parents.

The truly worrying thing? Only one girl and her parents seem to be complaining while the church is saying they'll continue with this 'programme'.

The DA's email: fchardo@dauphinc.org

The church's website: http://www.gtagpa.org/
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:49 pm UTC

You misunderstand? This is in the name of God, it's good by definition. Moreover, it's to prepare teens to spread God's word no matter how much people don't want to listen. I don't see a problem here.

...ugh. Fucking misguided zealots.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:59 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:You misunderstand? This is in the name of God, it's good by definition. Moreover, it's to prepare teens to spread God's word no matter how much people don't want to listen. I don't see a problem here.

...ugh. Fucking misguided zealots.


I doubt that somewhat. It would seem like this program was explicitly set up to scare people away from becoming missionaries.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:12 pm UTC

The intention is actually more sinister.

American Christians have taken on the belief that they and their international brethren are under a Neo-Diocletian Persecution. Because there is no evidence of this in the US, and even scouring the earth the amount of persecution is pretty low, they have to manufacture evidence. They do this by various means, reinterpreting political issues as a war on Christianity, cherry picking incidents from lawless parts of the globe, and traumatizing young people with mock kidnappings in order to brainwash them.

I won't pretend that the latter is anything I've ever heard of before, but it's just a more effective way of forcibly updating the firmware of children so that their loyalty to the church can be all the more certain.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby ahammel » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:45 pm UTC

So, what exactly is the difference, legally, between "simulated kidnapping without consent and against the will of those who were fake-kidnapped" and, you know, a kidnapping? If I'm arrested for starting a bar fight, can I say "no, your honour, I was just simulating a bar fight for the edification of the patrons. I didn't tell them before hand or ask permission because that would have spoiled the effect."?
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Jahoclave » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:34 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:The intention is actually more sinister.

American Christians have taken on the belief that they and their international brethren are under a Neo-Diocletian Persecution. Because there is no evidence of this in the US, and even scouring the earth the amount of persecution is pretty low, they have to manufacture evidence. They do this by various means, reinterpreting political issues as a war on Christianity, cherry picking incidents from lawless parts of the globe, and traumatizing young people with mock kidnappings in order to brainwash them.

I won't pretend that the latter is anything I've ever heard of before, but it's just a more effective way of forcibly updating the firmware of children so that their loyalty to the church can be all the more certain.

And given that Christians have such a vocal voice in our politics, despite the more annoying radical parts only being 22%, the implications that these developing world countries they're going to be sent to are barbaric does not help our foreign policy much. Leads to shit like Kony 2012 and other nonsensical paternalistic policies.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Elvish Pillager » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:43 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:...and traumatizing young people with mock kidnappings in order to brainwash them.

I won't pretend that the latter is anything I've ever heard of before,

[TW: child abuse] Hmm? You haven't heard of it before?

(Except without the "mock" part.)
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:58 pm UTC

No words for that. Only sadness.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby ahammel » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:59 pm UTC

Bharrata wrote:
ahammel wrote:So, what exactly is the difference, legally, between "simulated kidnapping without consent and against the will of those who were fake-kidnapped" and, you know, a kidnapping? If I'm arrested for starting a bar fight, can I say "no, your honour, I was just simulating a bar fight for the edification of the patrons. I didn't tell them before hand or ask permission because that would have spoiled the effect."?


I'd have to imagine (hope, like pray to God-type hope) that all of the children's parents were aware and gave their consent before their children were mock kidnapped.

I hate to dash your hopes, but:
Lanza said there were about 17 students at the meeting and the mock kidnappers covered the students' heads, put them in a van and interrogated them. Neither the students nor their parents were told about the raid beforehand, he said, though it was discussed with the parents of one youth who might have health issues.

And even if they were, I'm pretty sure one's authority to issue consent on behalf of one's children does not extend to kidnappings.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Bharrata » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:22 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:
Bharrata wrote:
ahammel wrote:So, what exactly is the difference, legally, between "simulated kidnapping without consent and against the will of those who were fake-kidnapped" and, you know, a kidnapping? If I'm arrested for starting a bar fight, can I say "no, your honour, I was just simulating a bar fight for the edification of the patrons. I didn't tell them before hand or ask permission because that would have spoiled the effect."?


I'd have to imagine (hope, like pray to God-type hope) that all of the children's parents were aware and gave their consent before their children were mock kidnapped.

I hate to dash your hopes, but:
Lanza said there were about 17 students at the meeting and the mock kidnappers covered the students' heads, put them in a van and interrogated them. Neither the students nor their parents were told about the raid beforehand, he said, though it was discussed with the parents of one youth who might have health issues.

And even if they were, I'm pretty sure one's authority to issue consent on behalf of one's children does not extend to kidnappings.


Yeah, that would be why I deleted the post :oops:

I was putting it out there that maybe if a parent is aware and gives consent, then what would normally be a kidnapping would no longer be considered one. I'm sure a lot of that would depend on how the local courts view children...are they their parents' property until 18 or merely those who are supervised by their parents' until 18? I really have no idea. But what I do know is, that church is breeding Fedaykin atheists in an attempt to get Sarduakar missionaries.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:58 pm UTC

This is irrefutably and unambiguously kidnapping, and I hope the Church is prosecuted appropriately according to that.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Gellert1984 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:14 pm UTC

Bharrata wrote:I was putting it out there that maybe if a parent is aware and gives consent, then what would normally be a kidnapping would no longer be considered one. I'm sure a lot of that would depend on how the local courts view children...are they their parents' property until 18 or merely those who are supervised by their parents' until 18?


My understanding is that parents are required to provide a certain level of safety and care for their child, as such they cannot consent to a mock kidnapping or imprisonment. In amongst the link Elvish pillager posted (if its the one I think it is) it's pointed out that the reeducation camps that are run in the US are unambiguously illegal, however this doesnt stop people looking the other way. I very much suggest reading the posted stories in that thread, be prepared for a great of rage and depression.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby ahammel » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:31 pm UTC

Bharrata wrote:I was putting it out there that maybe if a parent is aware and gives consent, then what would normally be a kidnapping would no longer be considered one.

I can see what you're getting at here. I can imagine a situation where an action would be kidnapping without parental consent, but legal if the parents know about it and agree. If, for example, a parent hires me to pick up their child from school and take him to my home, that's totally kosher but if I do it without asking I'm going to jail for a long time.

However, this doesn't preclude the existence of actions which are definitely kidnapping whether or not the parents consent to it. This is one of them. And it's moot anyway, because they didn't even bother to ask the parents.

Lock those fuckers up, is what I'm saying.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Bharrata » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:27 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:Lock those fuckers up, is what I'm saying.


No doubt, but I do doubt it'll be any different than Gellert described with the concentration re-education camps, wherein officials just look away and tacitly support it.

I can imagine the stories are horrendous Gellert, like I said, practices like this and re-ed camps are probably do more harm for the Christian cause than good.


I also hope that everyone realizes that this is not a majority of churches, just like the majority of Muslims (even Salafists for that matter) are not jihadists.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby curtis95112 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:55 am UTC

I hope everyone also realizes that while the majority of churches aren't like this, they create the environment in which this kind of thing can happen.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby nitePhyyre » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:15 am UTC

But the pastor, John Lanza, said Friday there have been emails of support from other students at the church, about 10 miles southeast of Harrisburg, because the intent was to prepare them for what they might encounter as missionaries.
It seems like these children are in a program that is training them to become missionaries, and that they were 'kidnapped' from one of the training sessions. IFF that is the case, I'm not seeing a problem here.

"They heard me crying," the girl said. "Why not right then and there tell us it was a joke, when you see me crying?"
Because it wasn't a joke, Darling.

ahammel wrote:So, what exactly is the difference, legally, between "simulated kidnapping without consent and against the will of those who were fake-kidnapped" and, you know, a kidnapping? If I'm arrested for starting a bar fight, can I say "no, your honour, I was just simulating a bar fight for the edification of the patrons. I didn't tell them before hand or ask permission because that would have spoiled the effect."?
Aren't you actually allowed to kidnap people, as long as it is in their best interest? This 'loophole' is mostly used to force people into rehab. And considering:
One security expert said role-playing training is sometimes conducted "at the quasi-military level" for groups that are going to work in war zones.

Daniel Karson, chairman of business intelligence and investigations at Kroll, a worldwide risk consulting company with headquarters in New York, said the idea of conflict zone training "is to acclimate someone to a possible situation that might arise." The training might involve everything from what items they should take to the country to a review of who they're meeting and security conditions there, he said.

Lanza said members of the church have made numerous mission trips overseas and have learned to be cautious. He said they were planning a trip to Mexico but reviewed current news and advisories and decided it was unsafe.
I don't think it would a hard case to make. Again, assuming the big IFF from before.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby curtis95112 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:50 am UTC

The sources I can find are unclear on your IFF.
Everyone refers to a "Youth group" but no more details. Does anyone know if youth group means anything specific in their community?
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:21 am UTC

Aren't you actually allowed to kidnap people, as long as it is in their best interest? This 'loophole' is mostly used to force people into rehab.


Parents can put their children into rehab involuntarily. Adults, however, cannot be put into rehab against their will except by a court order. I would be extremely surprised to find that a third party who is not a legal guardian of the child would ever be able to perform this sort of action without the parents' consent.

[edit]As an aside this article on the subject notes that the child whose parents are pressing charges is apparently a seventh grader, and thus is maybe 13 years old. She also apparently ended up with some bruises for her trouble.

[edit2]Yikes. According to the news report here, the children were threatened with a gun as part of the raid. The DA interviewed suggested that "false imprisonment of a child" could carry a penalty of 10 years in prison.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby dubsola » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:42 am UTC

I know someone who had to undergo a mock kidnapping as part of training / evaluation for a forthcoming visit to places where these things can happen. They knew about it beforehand.

This is ridiculous. Not only did the children AND the parents not know about it beforehand, but it doesn't seem like this was in preparation FOR anything.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Belial » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:34 pm UTC

It's legal in many states and on a federal level for parents to have their children kidnapped by a third party. It's how kids get sent to things like Casa by the Sea(Trigger Warning for Severe and Institutionalized Abuse) and other WWASP facilities in countries with no child abuse laws.

If these people get held accountable, it won't be because this is a mercilessly fucked up thing to do, it's because they didn't have the children's owners sign off on the abuse beforehand.

That's almost as fucked up as them getting away with it.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Red Hal » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:45 pm UTC

Words fail me.

Oh, wait, no they don't. This is kidnapping. Not mock kidnapping, not pretend kidnapping, not toughening-up, preparation, training or any other word that would dilute the fact that this is kidnapping. It should be prosecuted to the fullest extent as a criminal act, irrespective of the desires of the parents. Sadly it probably will not.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Tirian » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:05 pm UTC

curtis95112 wrote:Everyone refers to a "Youth group" but no more details. Does anyone know if youth group means anything specific in their community?


I wouldn't think so. This would appear to be an Assemblies of God church, so they exist on the Protestant continuum. I don't see any reason to suspect that this is anything other than the formal group of adolescents of the church who might get together once a week for fellowship and light Christian education.

dubsola wrote:This is ridiculous. Not only did the children AND the parents not know about it beforehand, but it doesn't seem like this was in preparation FOR anything.


That's been my reaction as well. The goal here seems to be making young people feel unsafe in their own sanctuary. The suggestions that this is cult indoctrination is off-base, because a cult is too smart to pull this shit. Cults use the Us vs. Them wedge to reinforce the message that the dangers of the world require that members retreat into the cult for security. Pastor Dimwit is on the exact opposite end of this playbook -- he would seem to want to energize families to go to Honduras for a week to help build an orphanage, but tries to encourage that behavior by placing absurd Left Behind fears in the most vulnerable of his congregants.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:33 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:
dubsola wrote:This is ridiculous. Not only did the children AND the parents not know about it beforehand, but it doesn't seem like this was in preparation FOR anything.


That's been my reaction as well. The goal here seems to be making young people feel unsafe in their own sanctuary. The suggestions that this is cult indoctrination is off-base, because a cult is too smart to pull this shit. Cults use the Us vs. Them wedge to reinforce the message that the dangers of the world require that members retreat into the cult for security. Pastor Dimwit is on the exact opposite end of this playbook -- he would seem to want to energize families to go to Honduras for a week to help build an orphanage, but tries to encourage that behavior by placing absurd Left Behind fears in the most vulnerable of his congregants.


Well, the -Goal- (that is to say the intended result by the numbskulls doing this shit) may have been indoctrination that "You'll get kidnapped and threatened elsewhere in the world, be afraid of anyone who's not 'us'.." but the execution of this particular plan...

...I don't know...

...of 17 students in one event -one- complained, and others actually supported it, that's something like a 6% failure rate (not knowing support or neutral populations) for a single event, -and- this isn't the first time that they've done it. It's just that that one girl and her parents had the swinging brass spheres to stand up to their church community ad bring it to the authorities -and- the media (the media attention making the authorities unable to ignore it).
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Роберт » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:46 pm UTC

This only makes any sense if the kids in question were actually part of a training program to be missionaries in a hostile country where kidnappings and beatings etc are a significant risk, and they already signed waivers etc for the training. In which case they STILL should have informed and gotten consent from the parents.

But it seems like it's more of an out of the blue thing that they just did on the youth group for no good reason?
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:58 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:This only makes any sense if the kids in question were actually part of a training program to be missionaries in a hostile country where kidnappings and beatings etc are a significant risk, and they already signed waivers etc for the training. In which case they STILL should have informed and gotten consent from the parents.

But it seems like it's more of an out of the blue thing that they just did on the youth group for no good reason?


I completely agree that it makes no sense, and that what the church did was not only illegal but utterly reprehensible. The thing that fills me with... sadness.. disappointment... despair for humanity as a whole... Is that just by the numbers this shitpile of a plan seems to have worked.

From the articles it looks like there's one parent, -One-, who's concern for their offspring overrides the church's so-called-authority.

-One-

And while I don't know if the girl's mother is single, divorced, separated, or currently married and the dad doesn't give a fuck, but there should be a lynch mob of adults looking to make heads roll for treating children like this.

-One- mother, just one blessed mother has the motherly response to become a terror to any jackass that threatens her child.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Triangle_Man » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:22 pm UTC

Shit, this is probably the stupidest possible way to 'educate' people about the risks of kidnapping. Not to mention that I'm wondering what 'the Persecuted Church' means.

I mean...

I'm willing to bet that missionary work is highly risky and those engaged in it can run into trouble with extremely unsavoury characters, but who in their right mind decides that virtual kidnapping is in any way an acceptable way of communicating this point? That's like warning people against the dangers of home invasions by staging one while they're having dinner!!!

And thank God that even one parent is willing call this Church out for their crap. A 'Holy' institution needs to be told when it isn't being so 'Holy', especially when their actions cause direct harm to the children of their own members.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:51 pm UTC

The video here gives some interesting insights. The girl filing the complaint was apparently invited by a friend to the youth group; she was not a member of the Church, and it was possibly her first time attending the group.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Роберт » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:25 pm UTC

Important question: were the kids wearing seatbelts in the van?

Seriously, though, it seems pretty awful.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Dauric » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:27 pm UTC

Around 1:55 in that video clip the youth pastor goes on a nice little "Victim Blaming" run.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:31 pm UTC

"We were teaching them a lesson" is not a defense for kidnapping.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:57 am UTC

Tirian wrote:
curtis95112 wrote:Everyone refers to a "Youth group" but no more details. Does anyone know if youth group means anything specific in their community?


I wouldn't think so. This would appear to be an Assemblies of God church, so they exist on the Protestant continuum. I don't see any reason to suspect that this is anything other than the formal group of adolescents of the church who might get together once a week for fellowship and light Christian education.


As someone who grew up going to an Assemblies of God church the term 'Youth Group' is a term used to refer to a weekly get together of teenaged church goers with a young adult or two who acted as guiders or teachers for your study (presumably because they are more 'hip' than the old fogeys who run the church). But it wasn't just study; they often had neat little events like playing video games or having a pizza night or something. Thats the type of thing it was for me at least, I'm sure it's similar in other places.
"The worst thing to call somebody is 'crazy', it's dismissive. 'I don't understand this person so they're crazy', that's bullshit. These people aren't crazy, they're strong people. Maybe their environment is a little sick." ~ Dave Chappelle
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:38 am UTC

Update on this story: Charges are now being laid against the church and youth pastor.
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Re: Church kidnaps 17 kids; pennsylvania

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:29 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Update on this story: Charges are now being laid against the church and youth pastor.


Im not at all surprised, this was a pretty terrible idea from the start.

If they were worried about legitimate threats, there are MUCH better courses of action to take. Hell, a slide show on possible dangers is all kinds of easier to put on. I can't imagine what church leadership was thinking when they opted to go with the "kidnap the kids" plan.
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