Airbender and Korra - Shyamalan's Masterpiece Animated

Rot your brains, then rot our boards

Moderators: SecondTalon, Prelates, Moderators General

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:48 pm UTC

In the most recently released comic, that seems to outline the events about a year after TLA, Toph has opened a metal bending school. So, yeah.

Also, blood bending is particularly nasty, and while being an advanced form of water bending, is probably more wantonly 'evil' than simply an advanced technique. Lightening bending, while an advanced form, is not really viewed as good or evil. So, metal bending is something that we can easily imagine being taught (lightening bending too!), while a school of blood benders is probably something we wouldn't see out in the open.

Besides, Katara is the only one in the world who knew the technique after Hami (was that her name?) died, and I can't imagine Katara would teach it to anyone who wasn't responsible enough to learn it.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Argency » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:41 am UTC

There are comics? Can you please link me?
Gonna be a blank slate, gonna wear a white cape.
User avatar
Argency
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 12:43 am UTC
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:40 am UTC

How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Joeldi » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:12 am UTC

phlip wrote:
maybeagnostic wrote:What I am really curious about is the metal benders. There are clearly quite a few of them which seems to contradict the idea that it is essentially very powerful earth-bending.

My speculation is that it took someone as powerful as Toph to recognise that it was possible, and figure out how to do it... but that once that was figured out, she was able to train others in the technique, and refine the process (note that metalbending in TLAB was very crude and imprecise, while now it seems to be just as accurate and reliable as any other form of bending...).

My theory is that the average Metal Bender isn't a very diverse Earthbender, and they have to dedicate their training to the specific Metal Bending craft to be as good as they are, much like the Sandbenders.

maybeagnostic wrote:The original show always left me with the impression that everyone can bend but most people are just pretty bad at it.

The best information we have is that Bending-ability is a combination of Genetics and Spirituality. Accepted canon is that non-benders will never be able to bend, but my head-canon is that almost anyone has access to one of the styles within their genes, but if you're not a natural, it will take a whole lot of religion to succeed.

I think Tenzin is the only airbending master. The other people either have a very minor talent or no bending ability at all but are culturally air nomads- like his wife who specifically says she can't bend at all.

Well, it's been said by Bryke a lot of times that Aang was the only Air Bender left despite the fact that it's hard to kill NOMADS by blowing up their "homes", so I originally figured they were non-benders who were just interested in the spiritual side of being monks, but I actually like this theory too. People that Aang, Tenzin or Tenzin's siblings have sought out that might have some bit of Nomad blood and may have access to Airbending.

Izawwlgood wrote:Also, blood bending is particularly nasty, and while being an advanced form of water bending, is probably more wantonly 'evil' than simply an advanced technique. Lightening bending, while an advanced form, is not really viewed as good or evil. So, metal bending is something that we can easily imagine being taught (lightening bending too!), while a school of blood benders is probably something we wouldn't see out in the open.

Remember that in terms of 'secondary technique' metal bending != blood bending != Lightning.

Each Bending style has a secondary technique that is only thematically related to the element itself, as well as a bunch of specialised techniques, that are more directly related.

Main | Secondary | Specialised
Earthbending | Magnetism | Sand, Metal
Waterbending | Healing | Plant, Blood*, Cloud
Airbending | Unknown (possibly sound) | ???
Firebending | Electricity | Lava

* I see the 'full moon' requirement of blood bending being more to do with the finesse required than the POWER. I think it would be possible for a water-bender to macabrely rip the water out of a person much like Hama did to those flowers. But to move someone around without killing them takes the extra finesse offered by the moon.
More likely, since spirits are a thing in Avatar, there's some sort of spiritual protection against interfering with the elements inside someone's body, and the full moon is required to break past that.

Any questions?
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

roc314 wrote:America is a police state that communicates in txt speak...

"i hav teh dissentors brb""¡This cheese is burning me! u pwnd them bff""thx ur cool 2"
Joeldi
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:49 am UTC
Location: Central Queensland, Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:24 am UTC

Joeldi wrote:Any questions?

Yeah. Uh, lava-bending? What? Also when is magnetism used in the series?

I would argue cloud bending isn't really different since clouds are just water anyway but that's just a nitpick. In the same vein, only two people are shown to be powerful enough to lightning-bend while healing is the common application of water-bending for women in the Northern tribe. I think that makes lightning-bending a lot closer to metal- and blood-bending as they are also extremely rare and difficult.
T: ... through an emergency induction port.
S: That's a straw, Tali.
T: Emerrrgency induction port.
maybeagnostic
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:07 am UTC

Joeldi wrote:Remember that in terms of 'secondary technique' metal bending != blood bending != Lightning.

Each Bending style has a secondary technique that is only thematically related to the element itself, as well as a bunch of specialised techniques, that are more directly related.

Main | Secondary | Specialised
Earthbending | Magnetism | Sand, Metal
Waterbending | Healing | Plant, Blood*, Cloud
Airbending | Unknown (possibly sound) | ???
Firebending | Electricity | Lava

I feel this is entirely your interpretation on the matter. I don't recall magnetism ever being mentioned, nor do I equate sand bending with metal bending by any stretch of the mind. Nor would I place plant/cloud manipulation on par with blood bending, or even really, a teritary characteristic. Healing is a facet of water bending, similar to how lightening bending is a facet of fire bending. My take on sand/plant bending was that the spiritual connection the benders had to the land was atypical, and their style is reflected as such. The jungle water benders were surrounded by damp plants, so they bent those. The desert dwellers weren't really around large stones, so they bent the sand. This is also indicated in their culture; the jungle people live at one with the jungle, and the desert dwellers are the Fremen.

maybeagnostic wrote: only two people are shown to be powerful enough to lightning

Three. Ozai Azula and Iroh are all lightening benders. Zuko and Aang are both capable of redirecting it as well.

Joeldi wrote: I see the 'full moon' requirement of blood bending being more to do with the finesse required than the POWER.

I disagree; I think Hama even says "you can only do this at the full moon, when your POWER is at it's greatest".

maybeagnostic wrote: I think it would be possible for a water-bender to macabrely rip the water out of a person much like Hama did to those flowers.

Probably not actually, just like it isn't possible for an Earth bender to bend the calcium in your bones, or an Airbender to rip the air from your lungs. Of course, honestly, these discussions about real world applications of bending are circular and stupid.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Argency » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:18 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Really?

Oh thanks, I'll try googling it.

Also, I guess you probably weren't angry at me or anything, but isn't that link a bit snide and bitchy? It must have cost you at least as much effort to arrange that as it would have to just post a link to the site where you read the comics or tell me you couldn't remember it. I agree, I could have Googled it, would have taken me one minute tops. Instead I asked a stranger on the internet to give me a direct link, which doesn't on the face of it sound like a dick move, but there you go. I learned my lesson.

I'm just sayin'. It's easy to be nice.
Gonna be a blank slate, gonna wear a white cape.
User avatar
Argency
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 12:43 am UTC
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby phlip » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:21 am UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:Also when is magnetism used in the series?

"Magnetism" might not be a 100% accurate term for it, since it's not sticking to metals, but rather to rock. Specifically, the Dai Li and their ability to crawl along ceilings and hang from walls and such.

maybeagnostic wrote:In the same vein, only two people are shown to be powerful enough to lightning-bend while healing is the common application of water-bending for women in the Northern tribe.

Three, but still. I don't think the point of the comparison is their difficulty... rather that it's a second ability that's not directly related to their ability to bend the element - healing, earth-magnetism and lightning aren't directly granted in any causal way by being able to manipulate water, earth or fire. While bending metal or ice or sand or what-have-you is just a specialised application of the main bending ability.
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?
User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
 
Posts: 7179
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:44 am UTC

Argency wrote:Also, I guess you probably weren't angry at me or anything, but isn't that link a bit snide and bitchy?

I'm not at all angry, but by the same token, it was just as much effort to ask me for a link as it was to google the thing yourself.
Argency wrote:I'm just sayin'. It's easy to be nice.

And it's easy to not be lazy. Or so easily offended.

phlip wrote: I don't think the point of the comparison is their difficulty... rather that it's a second ability that's not directly related to their ability to bend the element

Actually, wasn't lightening described as being a sort of meta-firebending? Where firebending is fueling something such that you create energy, create fire, lightening bending is separating that creation so forcefully that balance must be restored, creating lightening. And metal bending is recognizing that Metal is simply refined Earth, and bending those particles (more so considering Chinese folklore included Metal as an element). Healing is an example of something not related persay to the bending of Water though, so I can see that.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby phlip » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:05 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Actually, wasn't lightening described as being a sort of meta-firebending? Where firebending is fueling something such that you create energy, create fire, lightening bending is separating that creation so forcefully that balance must be restored, creating lightening.

Right, but the point was there's more to it than just specialised fire-bending... there's assorted spiritual whatsits in the process, in much the same way as the waterbending healing thing (though I don't remember the spiritual whatsits being explained at any point in the series for that one).

Izawwlgood wrote:And metal bending is recognizing that Metal is simply refined Earth, and bending those particles

Right, which is why metalbending isn't considered a secondary ability of the earthbending discipline.

I'm pretty sure this whole secondary-ability thing was never spelled out as such in the show at any point, but I have vague memories of it being explained in an interview or somesuch as word-of-god.
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?
User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
 
Posts: 7179
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Ryom » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:34 am UTC

Hmm, are all the episodes going to end up streaming in HD on Korranation.com? That'd be fantastic if they did.
User avatar
Ryom
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:52 am UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Okita » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:11 pm UTC

Nope.

You only got the first two episodes over last weekend. They're gone now.
"I may or may not be a raptor. There is no way of knowing until entering a box that I happen to be in and then letting me sunder the delicious human flesh from your body in reptile fury."
User avatar
Okita
Staying Alive
 
Posts: 3069
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:51 pm UTC
Location: Finance land.

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Joeldi » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:31 pm UTC

="Izawwlgood"]I feel this is entirely your interpretation on the matter. I don't recall magnetism ever being mentioned, nor do I equate sand bending with metal bending by any stretch of the mind.

A lot of what I said is actually from panels with Bryke, including the Magnetism thing, but I agree it's not really 'magnetism' but something similar. In addition to the sticking to walls thing, there was also the way the Dai Li brainwashed Jet. I admit I don't usually like going by Word of God over what was actually in the show, but it makes a lot of sense for me this way.

Nor would I place plant/cloud manipulation on par with blood bending, or even really, a teritary characteristic. Healing is a facet of water bending, similar to how lightening bending is a facet of fire bending. My take on sand/plant bending was that the spiritual connection the benders had to the land was atypical, and their style is reflected as such. The jungle water benders were surrounded by damp plants, so they bent those. The desert dwellers weren't really around large stones, so they bent the sand. This is also indicated in their culture; the jungle people live at one with the jungle, and the desert dwellers are the Fremen.

It's fair enough to say they have a spiritual connection that urges them to learn the techniques, but It doesn't change the fact that sand bending is just bending very fine particles of earth, and plant bending is just bending water without breaking the cellulose container that it's in.

Joeldi wrote: I see the 'full moon' requirement of blood bending being more to do with the finesse required than the POWER.

I disagree; I think Hama even says "you can only do this at the full moon, when your POWER is at it's greatest".

maybeagnostic wrote: I think it would be possible for a water-bender to macabrely rip the water out of a person much like Hama did to those flowers.

Probably not actually, just like it isn't possible for an Earth bender to bend the calcium in your bones, or an Airbender to rip the air from your lungs. Of course, honestly, these discussions about real world applications of bending are circular and stupid.

These, on the other hand, were entirely my pet theories, true.

maybeagnostic wrote:
Joeldi wrote:Any questions?

Yeah. Uh, lava-bending?

You don't remember Sozin helping Roku with the Volcano?
I would argue cloud bending isn't really different since clouds are just water anyway but that's just a nitpick. In the same vein, only two people are shown to be powerful enough to lightning-bend while healing is the common application of water-bending for women in the Northern tribe. I think that makes lightning-bending a lot closer to metal- and blood-bending as they are also extremely rare and difficult.
[/quote][/quote]
That's exactly what I'm saying: Metal bending is still just bending earth, and Cloud and Plant bending is still just bending water, but Lightning and is something completely different, and blood bending is some weird special case that involves the power of the full-moon.
Last edited by Joeldi on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:38 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

roc314 wrote:America is a police state that communicates in txt speak...

"i hav teh dissentors brb""¡This cheese is burning me! u pwnd them bff""thx ur cool 2"
Joeldi
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:49 am UTC
Location: Central Queensland, Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:40 pm UTC

Joeldi wrote:That's exactly what I'm saying: Metal bending is still just bending earth, and Cloud and Plant bending is still just bending water, but Lightning and is something completely different, and blood bending is some weird special case that involves the power of the full-moon.

Lightening bending is just another variant of fire bending. It's stated as such when Iroh describes it to Zuko.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:18 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Joeldi wrote:That's exactly what I'm saying: Metal bending is still just bending earth, and Cloud and Plant bending is still just bending water, but Lightning and is something completely different, and blood bending is some weird special case that involves the power of the full-moon.

Lightening bending is just another variant of fire bending. It's stated as such when Iroh describes it to Zuko.


Spiritually it's similar. You're manipulating the spiritual properties of fire: energy, potential, catharsis. Much like with water's secondary style, you're manipulating the spiritual properties of water: restoration, renewal, healing. But in neither case are you actually moving actual fire or actual water around. Which is what makes it a secondary style: it's a whole different discipline that is only thematically linked to the bending element.

Whereas in the case of metal, sand, plant and blood bending, what you're doing is actually physically moving the actual element around, just in a more specialized and finessed way. These aren't secondary styles, they're extremely refined and specialized applications of the primary style.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.
User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
 
Posts: 30222
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Joeldi » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:19 pm UTC

It is The Best feeling when eldritch forum gods agree with you.
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

roc314 wrote:America is a police state that communicates in txt speak...

"i hav teh dissentors brb""¡This cheese is burning me! u pwnd them bff""thx ur cool 2"
Joeldi
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:49 am UTC
Location: Central Queensland, Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:45 pm UTC

Belial, I'm not sure I'd place all of them in the same category still. Lightening bending is still thematically fire bending; it is the creation of two disparate energies, and allowing the energy to flow between them.

Just like sand and plant bending are just variants on earth and water bending. Actually, that's what you said, and that was my original point to Joeldi. Blood bending isn't just bending water, it's bending something water like, which is why it requires the extra oomph from the moon, etc.

I had a long conversation today with someone wondering whether or not lava bending could be performed by a water bender. My sense was no.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Joeldi » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:07 am UTC

Okay, that does make more sense to me. Given that Lava bending is decidedly not the creation of disparate energies, it just happen to be hot and red, yet counts as Firebending, maybe it would make more sense to think of Lava as the secondary ability and Lightning as the specialisation. But I'm far more comfortable with things being the other way around.
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

roc314 wrote:America is a police state that communicates in txt speak...

"i hav teh dissentors brb""¡This cheese is burning me! u pwnd them bff""thx ur cool 2"
Joeldi
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:49 am UTC
Location: Central Queensland, Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:26 am UTC

Joeldi wrote: it just happen to be hot and red, yet counts as Firebending, maybe it would make more sense to think of Lava as the secondary ability and Lightning as the specialisation.

I think you are radically missing the point.

Lava is not a secondary bending ability. It's powerful ass fire bending, and if you want to get high and talk about the philosophy of the Avatar world, you can wonder whether or not lava is Earth bending, Fire bending, or Water bending. If you get really blazed, you could try to figure out who bends Steam. Issit Fire? Water? AIR?!

Given that the only person(s) we ever see bending lava are the Avatar, and only on volcanos or such...
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby cephalopod9 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:38 am UTC

I posted this a couple pages back:some legit looking takes on bending science (although not Word Of God tm)

I forget the specifics of what Sozin actually does at the volcano, I don't think it quite makes sense for him to be able to move the lava directly, but he could definitely help with the heat and stuff.
Spoiler:
I mean, he could have helped. Didn't so much.
Image
User avatar
cephalopod9
 
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:23 am UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:07 pm UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:I posted this a couple pages back:some legit looking takes on bending science (although not Word Of God tm)

Waterbenders use electricity because tides are caused by electromagnetism? Earthbenders change elements by rearranging their electrons (which somehow changes atomic weight)? Firebenders can move fire around with their thoughts but they are not pyrokinetics because... that would mean they can move fire around with their mind? The explanation for air bending works but the others don't really make any sense to me.

I haven't seen the show in a few years but wasn't lava-bending just cooling off lava enough so it solidifies? I still don't see how that requires anything more than normal firebending. Possibly a lot of raw power because of the amount of heat being moved?
T: ... through an emergency induction port.
S: That's a straw, Tali.
T: Emerrrgency induction port.
maybeagnostic
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Diadem » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:03 pm UTC

I've always thought that lava bending should be a form of earth bending. Or perhaps a combination of earth and fire bending, meaning that only the avatar could do it.

In the show though it's clearly fire bending, since the firelord can do it too. Meh.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister
User avatar
Diadem
 
Posts: 4935
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:12 pm UTC

All of these analyses of the real function or real potential of fantasy magics always piss me off. Why can't the Earth kingdom make a spaceship and have a bunch of Water benders compress a sphere of water that sprays behind it? Why don't Fire benders just bend a hot sphere of plasma and fuse hydrogen for BOOM infinite energy?

Because thinking about that is stupid. Just like wondering why the Romans didn't make steam cars, despite having steam technology, is stupid.

maybeagnostic wrote:I haven't seen the show in a few years but wasn't lava-bending just cooling off lava enough so it solidifies?

Don't think so. Think there were a few points where either an extremely powerful Fire bender or an Avatar bends a huge wall of Lava.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Joeldi » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:28 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:All of these analyses of the real function or real potential of fantasy magics always piss me off.

Hang on, what? Haven't you been dicussing and debating just that for half a page now?

Joeldi wrote: it just happen to be hot and red, yet counts as Firebending, maybe it would make more sense to think of Lava as the secondary ability and Lightning as the specialisation.

I think you are radically missing the point.

Lava is not a secondary bending ability. It's powerful ass fire bending, and if you want to get high and talk about the philosophy of the Avatar world, you can wonder whether or not lava is Earth bending, Fire bending, or Water bending. If you get really blazed, you could try to figure out who bends Steam. Issit Fire? Water? AIR?!
Given that the only person(s) we ever see bending lava are the Avatar, and only on volcanos or such...

I'm doubly confused. I thought I was agreeing with you, but actually I'm missing the point? The point I made makes sense to me, and I can see yours, but I don't see why one of them is the point and the other is not.
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

roc314 wrote:America is a police state that communicates in txt speak...

"i hav teh dissentors brb""¡This cheese is burning me! u pwnd them bff""thx ur cool 2"
Joeldi
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:49 am UTC
Location: Central Queensland, Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:43 pm UTC

Joeldi wrote:Hang on, what? Haven't you been dicussing and debating just that for half a page now?

No. Discussing why, for example, Earth and Water benders could make a spaceship, or perpetual motion machines, is silly and boring, in the same vein that discussing why we should strap Gandalf to a water wheel and have him power all of Middle Earth is silly and boring. Trying to analyze TLA universe in terms of real world physical science is silly and boring; yes, they all violate the shit out of the lawss of thermodynamics. Who cares?

Joeldi wrote:I'm doubly confused. I thought I was agreeing with you, but actually I'm missing the point? The point I made makes sense to me, and I can see yours, but I don't see why one of them is the point and the other is not.

Then I misunderstood your response. Excellent, we're on the same page!
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:46 pm UTC

Argency wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Really?

Oh thanks, I'll try googling it.

Also, I guess you probably weren't angry at me or anything, but isn't that link a bit snide and bitchy? It must have cost you at least as much effort to arrange that as it would have to just post a link to the site where you read the comics or tell me you couldn't remember it. I agree, I could have Googled it, would have taken me one minute tops. Instead I asked a stranger on the internet to give me a direct link, which doesn't on the face of it sound like a dick move, but there you go. I learned my lesson.

I'm just sayin'. It's easy to be nice.
Normally I temp-ban people for OPENLY ASKING FOR PIRATED MATERIAL as a reminder.

Izawwlgood is being nice.
"When Archie is too progressive for you, that's how science identifies you as an earlier species" - Luke McKinney, Cracked.com

Honestly, if you're talking BBQ and 'a guy in a parking lot' isn't part of the conversation, something's wrong."
User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
 
Posts: 22935
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Box Boy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:19 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote: Trying to analyze TLA universe in terms of real world physical science is silly and boring; yes, they all violate the shit out of the lawss of thermodynamics. Who cares?
I actually find it challenging, fun and interesting, though I can see why it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.
Signatures are for chumps.
User avatar
Box Boy
WINNING
 
Posts: 1359
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:33 pm UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:43 pm UTC

The best analogy I've heard went like this:
The Romans had steam power, but they considered it a clever toy. It never occured to them to make steam powered cars or doors or engines or whatever from it. Want to know why? Because they had slaves that did all that shit for them. Why should they make things easier for their slaves?

Same reason it's silly to worry about having a bunch of Water Benders sitting on perpetual motion water wheels, or Fire benders taking turns at a power plant, or Earth benders making space ships from diamond, or Air benders creating vacuum sealed implodo-bombs; They don't really have a reason to, because they can bend in the first place.

That's why I think this series is going to be about the end of the Age of the Avatar (said with much pomp); the nations are united, more or less, and people are relying on their ingenuity instead of their bending.

So, thematically, in a world that was technologically pretty stagnant for 1000's of years, that only really industrialized certain things for an aggressive Fire Nation dynasty's war drive (land, naval and air ship improvements really being the extent of it, and Ba Sing Se's mail delivery system as well), wondering why you don't see (or couldn't see!) steam engines and the like is fairly easily answerable: we don't see it because there's no real reason for it's existence, thematically OR practically.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby PCal » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:32 pm UTC

So I watched the first two episodes, I am not sure the major conflict or the series/season will be too enjoyable to me.
Spoiler:
Why benders vs non-benders yes benders are powerful but in TLA there were plenty of non-benders that could go toe to toe with almost any bender we saw. But maybe it will be explained more as to how the non bending society is being "oppressed" by the benders. I imagine the peace time has afforded benders more opportunities (the pro bending thing for example) and this is what non benders are upset about.
PCal
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:00 am UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:49 pm UTC

I dunno, I imagine quite the opposite actually. In Republic City, there is no overt war and the ingenuity of the four kingdoms can come together. This means Bending is actually less important than it was in previous years. We see cars and radios and papers and new fashion and sky scrapers! None of these things are inherently made by Benders, and as such, we can deduce that people are succeeding famously without bending.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby cephalopod9 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:38 am UTC

PCal wrote:So I watched the first two episodes, I am not sure the major conflict or the series/season will be too enjoyable to me.
Spoiler:
Why benders vs non-benders yes benders are powerful but in TLA there were plenty of non-benders that could go toe to toe with almost any bender we saw. But maybe it will be explained more as to how the non bending society is being "oppressed" by the benders. I imagine the peace time has afforded benders more opportunities (the pro bending thing for example) and this is what non benders are upset about.

I've been wondering how they're going to approach this, and it's still too early to tell, since we only see only see a brief moment from Korra's perspective
Spoiler:
I wonder if it might be a 'big lie' type situation; "This small group of powerful individuals is the reason for all of your problems".
We haven't gotten to see much of the make up, or wealth distribution, ethnography stuff of Republic City. There is clearly inequality, and thugs that use bending, so there probably are some valid complaints about unfair advantages given to benders. It's hard to argue that individuals who can throw fireballs/boulders/ice daggers aren't a privileged group of people.
Still, attacking bending isn't like attacking a political party or a rich people, since they are benders because they were born that way, and because they practice a tradition. So saying the existence of benders is keeping normal people down (kinda the vibe I got from the park speech, but the scene was short enough that there wasn't much message there) has some implications.
It'll be interesting to see more details on the motives of the Equalists, and to see how the show, and Korra, find a balance between the different groups.
Dang, this is some heavy stuff for a children's cartoon show.

I'm also hopeful the 'villains' of Legend of Korra will be as complex and well rounded as those Last Airbender.
Izawwlgood wrote:So, thematically, in a world that was technologically pretty stagnant for 1000's of years, that only really industrialized certain things for an aggressive Fire Nation dynasty's war drive (land, naval and air ship improvements really being the extent of it, and Ba Sing Se's mail delivery system as well), wondering why you don't see (or couldn't see!) steam engines and the like is fairly easily answerable: we don't see it because there's no real reason for it's existence, thematically OR practically.
I don't know that technology was stagnant for 1000 years. Certainly not moving at the pace it is shown to be moving now, but that's fairly realistic. Drawing parallels between their timeline and ours, Korra's time is circa 1920, which would put Aang's (Last Airbender) time in the mid 1800's, which I think makes sense with the proliferation and development of steam engines. Technology, or at least manufacturing, seemed to move at ridiculous speeds during that year and a half, but maybe that also reflected the 100 years the Fire Nation had spent building war machines. I don't think the clips earlier than that show us much about how people over all are living and working to contrast with what we see now.
Image
User avatar
cephalopod9
 
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:23 am UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:58 pm UTC

I imagine benders, in addition to their special powers, probably traditionally hold high-ranking positions in society that non-benders cannot achieve. The legitimate complaint in the resistance movement will probably turn out to be that access to the highest echelons of power is only available to experienced benders, an outdated restriction in a world that increasingly relies on technology rather than bending. This is mostly speculation, of course, but it seems like an interesting theme to explore and it would present an interesting conflict of interest for Korra who seems to hold the belief that bending >> everything else.
T: ... through an emergency induction port.
S: That's a straw, Tali.
T: Emerrrgency induction port.
maybeagnostic
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Isaac Hill » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:47 am UTC

Regarding the major conflist in LoK (spoilered for references to LoK Eps 1 and 2, references to AtLA people/events)
Spoiler:
I don't think benders necessarily held high office. I don't remember the Earth King or Yue's father being benders. Long Feng wasn't a bender, but worked his way up to high office. We also saw plenty of benders holding non-high-ranking positions, like bus motor. With machines now doing the menial stuff, it may be that bending is only useful for violence.

The Earth Nationals in "Zuko Alone" hated the earth-bending soldiers who oppressed them, but not enough to accept a fire-bender's help. With the war over and the national divisions weakened, there's less incentive to tolerate benders misusing their abilities. With technology and peace, non-benders' fear of benders is no longer countered by their need for benders.

Spoilered for LoK Eps 1 and 2
Spoiler:
I liked that Toph's daughter appears to have rebelled against her mother ("Let's break some rules!", knocks down wall) by becoming the strict head of police.

Tenzin's siblings are named after Katara's mother and Aang's friend. I'm sure giving Tenzin a unique name was meant to help distinguish him as a character, but I like to think he was named after someone Aang and/or Katara met outside the time frame of AtLA. It's a small reminder that they had lives outside what we saw in that series.

Tenzin's daughters remind me enough of Mai and Ty Lee that I might have trouble seeing them as unique characters.

When Korra calls Tenzin a terrible teacher, it was probably supposed to come off as her being frustrated, but I think she has a point. Tenzin hasn't had much opporunity to practice teaching. Unless he has air-bending nieces and nephews, he's only ever taught his own 3 children. He has no experience teaching someone not completely immersed in Air Nomad culture.

I'm not sure Tenzin is all that cut out to teach the Air Nomad way of life, either. Iroh described Air Nomads as detached from the world and having a great sense of humor. I think the detachment thing came up a few times, and there was a flashback of Aang and Gyatso air bending pies for a pie fight, so Iroh was onto something. Tenzin, on the other hand, is some kind of political figure with a serious demeanor. Korra might be better off learning the air-bending basics by playing with the kids.

It kind of bugged me that while AtLA established that the Avatar has trouble mastering the opposite element of the cycle, LoK is saying it's based on the individual's personality. Korra does seem to think more like an earth-bender, though. When the water-benging thug attacked, she caught the water and threw it back rather than steer the water in an arc back at the guy. Normally, I'd say I was reading too much into a TV show, but these mofos foreshadowed their dues ex machina with background ornamentation.

The only thing that really irritated me was when Korra was caught sneaking around the arena, but wasn't recognized, even after she told the earth-bender her name. There was a press conference. She introduced herself over the radio. They took her picture, presumably for the newspaper. It made sense in AtLA for people to not know the Avatar on sight, but not here.
Alleged "poems"
that don't follow a rhyme scheme
are not poetry
User avatar
Isaac Hill
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:35 pm UTC
Location: Middletown, RI

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:18 am UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:I imagine benders, in addition to their special powers, probably traditionally hold high-ranking positions in society that non-benders cannot achieve. The legitimate complaint in the resistance movement will probably turn out to be that access to the highest echelons of power is only available to experienced benders, an outdated restriction in a world that increasingly relies on technology rather than bending. This is mostly speculation, of course, but it seems like an interesting theme to explore and it would present an interesting conflict of interest for Korra who seems to hold the belief that bending >> everything else.

I don't think the show really gives any evidence to support that notion. The Earth KING (who is yes, kind of an idiot) isn't a bender. Neither is the southern water tribe king.

Also, Isaac:
Spoiler:
Korra having trouble with Air Bending, to me, seems more a conflict of her spirituality. She's headstrong and physically very adept, but the spiritual stuff comes slower to her. Air Bending is being taught to her from a spiritual angle, which is why she's struggling. But yes, the elemental opposition thing was annoying to me too, and my guess is they only handled it this way to allow us a chance to observe someone learning air bending for the first time.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Joeldi » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:30 pm UTC

I don't think Korra's trouble with Airbending retcons the opposite element trouble, just that Korra's a special case, being able to bend everything else at 6.

Spoiler:
Isaac Hill wrote:The only thing that really irritated me was when Korra was caught sneaking around the arena, but wasn't recognized, even after she told the earth-bender her name. There was a press conference. She introduced herself over the radio. They took her picture, presumably for the newspaper. It made sense in AtLA for people to not know the Avatar on sight, but not here.

From what I remember, only three people took any notice of her. Mako, I think, knew he'd seen her SOMEWHERE from the start, given the unsurprised way he said "You're the avatar". And maybe Bolin and the old guy don't read the paper.
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

roc314 wrote:America is a police state that communicates in txt speak...

"i hav teh dissentors brb""¡This cheese is burning me! u pwnd them bff""thx ur cool 2"
Joeldi
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:49 am UTC
Location: Central Queensland, Australia

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:46 pm UTC

Korra is also in the ring wearing pretty obstructive head gear. So, that has to count for something.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby cephalopod9 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:46 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
maybeagnostic wrote:I imagine benders, in addition to their special powers, probably traditionally hold high-ranking positions in society that non-benders cannot achieve. The legitimate complaint in the resistance movement will probably turn out to be that access to the highest echelons of power is only available to experienced benders, an outdated restriction in a world that increasingly relies on technology rather than bending. This is mostly speculation, of course, but it seems like an interesting theme to explore and it would present an interesting conflict of interest for Korra who seems to hold the belief that bending >> everything else.
I don't think the show really gives any evidence to support that notion. The Earth KING (who is yes, kind of an idiot) isn't a bender. Neither is the southern water tribe king.

Also, Isaac:
Spoiler:
Korra having trouble with Air Bending, to me, seems more a conflict of her spirituality. She's headstrong and physically very adept, but the spiritual stuff comes slower to her. Air Bending is being taught to her from a spiritual angle, which is why she's struggling. But yes, the elemental opposition thing was annoying to me too, and my guess is they only handled it this way to allow us a chance to observe someone learning air bending for the first time.

The Earth King was also a figure head controlled by an underground organization of earth benders, don't know if that information ever got out to the public. Fire Nation royalty is almost all fire benders.
In Republic City we've already seen an arm of the police force that's exclusive to earth benders skilled enough to bend metal. Tenzin himself is an important leader, and, I presume, a powerful air bender. Someone looking for evidence that benders have too much power could find a lot of evidence.
There's also how Republic City was made out of Fire Nation colonies in the Earth Kingdom, so I imagine there are some complicated feelings there.

Aang didn't just struggle with earth bending because he was more familiar with air, but because his personality embody the spirit and culture of 'air': evade, accommodate, make peace. Korra
Spoiler:
has the opposite problem. She wants to fight every problem head on. It takes her more than 2 rounds in the ring to figure out that dodging is a good idea.
I also don't see her as connected to Water Tribe spirituality and culture the same way Aang was to air. Even just the brief clip of her in the intro, her style of water bending looks different and more aggressive than what we've seen.
It's also interesting how often she seems to default to fire bending.
Another point to note, the element that Aang took the longest to learn
Spoiler:
was fire bending. It clashed with his personality in a different way. He had to learn to control his energy, and confront his ability to cause harm in a way he hadn't before.


Isaac Hill wrote:
Spoiler:
When Korra calls Tenzin a terrible teacher, it was probably supposed to come off as her being frustrated, but I think she has a point. Tenzin hasn't had much opporunity to practice teaching. Unless he has air-bending nieces and nephews, he's only ever taught his own 3 children. He has no experience teaching someone not completely immersed in Air Nomad culture.
I think by definition
Spoiler:
If your student isn't learning you're doing a poor job as a teacher.
His usual strategies weren't a good fit for Korra, although it's hard to say how much teaching experience he's had so far.
I don't think they would build an entire island just for Tenzin's family, so I think there's some education about Air Nomad culture and tradition going on, even if it isn't going to air benders. Although, there's probably few rebellious teenagers in that group, and there's something to be said for the difficulties of imparting the traditions and spirituality of a culture that went extinct 170 years ago :[
Image
User avatar
cephalopod9
 
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:23 am UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Belial » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:26 pm UTC

Isaac Hill wrote:I'm sure giving Tenzin a unique name was meant to help distinguish him as a character, but I like to think he was named after someone Aang and/or Katara met outside the time frame of AtLA.


Actually, the name is a reference to the same real world figure that Monk Gyatso was a reference to.

Izawwlgood wrote:
Spoiler:
None of these things are inherently made by Benders


Spoiler:
Oh? I basically assumed that the reason the technology is all retro-future is because they've been using bending to skip major steps in the whole industrial process. Thus why the fire nation was able to jump out of the gate with iron ships and engines and things: it's a lot easier to forge metal and run steam engines when you have a ready-made magical heatsource. It allows you to skip the entire "figuring out how to supply, refine, and control fuel" step.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.
User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
 
Posts: 30222
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:53 pm UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:The Earth King was also a figure head controlled by an underground organization of earth benders, don't know if that information ever got out to the public. Fire Nation royalty is almost all fire benders.

And those two old ladies in the Fire Kingdom are top level advisors. They're not benders. Zuko and Azula's mother might not have been a fire bender, we never see her bend. Basically, non-benders play a hugely prominent roll in the societies make up, and while Benders *are* often in positions of power, we also often see them as being standard citizen chumps.

As for Aang taking the 'longest' to learn Fire Bending, I disagree. He put it off the longest, but picked it up pretty quickly and painlessly. Compared to Earth Bending, which he actually strugged to learn, Fire Bending was something he could do very rapidly.

@Belial:
Spoiler:
If you recall, the warships are powered not by a gaggle of Benders shooting a boiler, but by big shirtless dudes shoveling coal. I'm sure there are a bunch of Fire Nation blacksmiths at home bending fire to heat their forges, but most of the technology we see them employ isn't actually powered by bending.

Also, note that the world effective goes from zepplelins and warships and Bending powered mail delivery systems, to RADIOS and cameras and personalized cars. That's a HUGE leap of technology completely detatched from bending, although, not to mention the fact that Republic city has been around for ~60 years, and has a multitude of skyscrapers.
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.
User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
 
Posts: 16735
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

Postby maybeagnostic » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:13 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:And those two old ladies in the Fire Kingdom are top level advisors. They're not benders.
They supervise Azula's bending training and teach her how to lightning bend, why would you assume they aren't benders? And even if they aren't, they are very knowledgeable about it so hardly an example of how it isn't necessary to advance.

Treatment of bending in original vs new series:
Spoiler:
The Fire kings, most highly respected members of the Northern Water tribe, all army officers, and the Air nomad leadership are all benders. Sure, there are some higher up character that aren't benders (some Fire nation nobility, the Earth king, possibly the Northern Water tribe king?) but bending vs non-bending isn't really a conflict in the original show.

Except for Korra's parents, have we been introduced to any non-benders in the first two episodes of the new series? Everyone from the super scary police-in-the-sky to the street thugs terrorizing shopkeepers is a bender. The teenager destined to be the most powerful person in the world holds that position because she... can bend a lot? That's at least how she sees it.

So we haven't been shown anything particularly unfair about the benders in power yet but the show is just getting started.


About technology in original and new series:
Spoiler:
They conquered huge parts of the Earth kingdom and used captured benders as slave labor to mine coal as we see in that episode with the coal mining prison. At the same time their Great War era-like metal tanks and ships require fire-benders to create, repair and use (since all the weapons are or require direct use of fire-bending). The tanks likely use bending for a power source and scout balloons definitely do.

We have also only seen one inventor in both shows and the stuff he was working on was centuries removed from what we see in the new show. Besides his rudimentary inventions were quickly improved upon by the fire nation so either they have a completely invisible population of genius scientists and engineers or they took significant shortcuts using bending to create the air ships. I think similarly radio and
T: ... through an emergency induction port.
S: That's a straw, Tali.
T: Emerrrgency induction port.
maybeagnostic
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

PreviousNext

Return to Movies and TV Shows

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Feedfetcher and 4 guests