U.S. Republican Primary

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Роберт » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:12 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:It sounds more like "nik" than "nig" to me. A commentator on Language Log thought likewise and suggested he might have been going for "peacenik" and misread his notes. That would make sense from context, but is pure speculation of course.

Or maybe his notes had been tampered with he caught himself before he read them and moved on.

Reminds me a lot of his "blah people" thing... which to me actually sounded like he was stumbling over his own words and may or may not indicate anything about racism in and of itself.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby bentheimmigrant » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:17 pm UTC

You seriously go for the "blah" thing (I posted it earlier)??? Watch the video again. It only makes sense if he's saying black.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby ahammel » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:23 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:So, Santorum drops the n-word on Obama. He catches himself halfway, and no doubt his team will try to spin it, but I can't see what else he was going to say.

Surprisingly, none of the big media corporations are writing about this. Not sure why.

That syllable, or something that sounds like it, also appears in many words that have nothing to do with being a racist.

Seriously, guys? Santorum spends most of his time saying horrible things all the way through, and you want to jump on this non-incident?
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby bentheimmigrant » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:25 pm UTC

Yes. It confirms everything we want to believe.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Weeks » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:44 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:It sounds more like "nik" than "nig" to me.
...really? It may be the fact that I'm ESL but that doesn't sound like a "k" to me at all.

ahammel wrote:Seriously, guys? Santorum spends most of his time saying horrible things all the way through, and you want to jump on this non-incident?
He's just never said the n-word in public.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Роберт » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:24 pm UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:You seriously go for the "blah" thing (I posted it earlier)??? Watch the video again. It only makes sense if he's saying black.

If I was on a jury, I wouldn't convict him of saying "black people's money" because the first time I heard the clip, the way he said what he said my brain AUTOMATICALLY ignored the syllable before "people's money" because it parsed it as a non-word that he accidentally said. And this is when it was in the news so I knew he was supposed to say something racist in the short clip. I had to listen again to realize what people were hearing.

And yes, what he said definitely makes sense for "black people" and little else, ASSUMING he wasn't in the middle of changing what he wanted to say mid-sentence.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Garm » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:33 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:
Diadem wrote:So, Santorum drops the n-word on Obama. He catches himself halfway, and no doubt his team will try to spin it, but I can't see what else he was going to say.

Surprisingly, none of the big media corporations are writing about this. Not sure why.

That syllable, or something that sounds like it, also appears in many words that have nothing to do with being a racist.

Seriously, guys? Santorum spends most of his time saying horrible things all the way through, and you want to jump on this non-incident?


Pretty much this. Santorum is already completely unelectable. There's a laundry list of reasons, this is just more gotcha bullshit.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Роберт » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:50 pm UTC

Garm wrote:Pretty much this. Santorum is already completely unelectable. There's a laundry list of reasons, this is just more gotcha bullshit.

Last time I checked intrade, people were betting RON freakin PAUL was at least as likely to win the election as Santorum.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Garm » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:56 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Garm wrote:Pretty much this. Santorum is already completely unelectable. There's a laundry list of reasons, this is just more gotcha bullshit.

Last time I checked intrade, people were betting RON freakin PAUL was at least as likely to win the election as Santorum.


Well if there's one thing that we've learned from the Straw Polls, the Ronpaul has a lot of supporters who are willing to spend money to push his message. Point being, despite what InTrade says I don't think either Santorum or Paul has any realistic chance at winning the election. Probably more of chance than they do of winning Mega Millions, but still. :)
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby ahammel » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:59 pm UTC

Garm wrote:Well if there's one thing that we've learned from the Straw Polls, the Ronpaul has a lot of supporters who are willing to spend money to push his message. Point being, despite what InTrade says I don't think either Santorum or Paul has any realistic chance at winning the election. Probably more of chance than they do of winning Mega Millions, but still. :)

I think it was Dave Barry who suggested that "Dark Horse" candidates are so called because they are about as likely to become the President as to win the Preakenss.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Роберт » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:14 pm UTC

Garm wrote:Well if there's one thing that we've learned from the Straw Polls, the Ronpaul has a lot of supporters who are willing to spend money to push his message. Point being, despite what InTrade says I don't think either Santorum or Paul has any realistic chance at winning the election. Probably more of chance than they do of winning Mega Millions, but still. :)

IIRC, Romney had a predicted 90% or so chance of winning the primary.

Edit: I've listed the current predictions

Romney: 93.1%
the Ronpaul: 1.2%
Santorum: 1%
Newt Gingrich 0.3%
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:41 pm UTC

the Ronpaul has a higher chance of winning than Santorum or Gingrich? Statistical errors much?
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Ghostbear » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:45 pm UTC

Those are just the numbers from intrade, which is just a fancy betting market. All those numbers mean is that (1) more people believe Paul can win than people believe Santorum or Gingrich, and (2) those people are willing to put their money where their mouth is. It's not an expert analysis, and cases like this are a great example of why I don't think using intrade to get an idea for the likelihood of something is particularly wise.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:36 am UTC

...well, intrade and other markets can also be used to hedge against disaster, so the prices don't always perfectly reflect true value/probability. It's incredibly complicated to do market analysis assuming anything other than a strongly efficient market, which is why most people in finance will just handwave everything that could possibly show the market as being inefficient. And why people who base their entire investments on a simplified mathematical model without understanding exactly what the inputs are will never have my sympathy.

Not that I don't trust mathematical models and such, but as a mathematician that specializes in probability/statistics/finance, I am far more hesitant about my models than the people who use them, no matter how much I warn them. It's scary, and I remind people that, being an estimate, the Galton*/Gaussian** distributions should never be used to extrapolate the extreme parts of the tail distributions, especially when you are dealing with probabilities that are so small the empirical distribution doesn't say anything about them. (Basically, if you have X data points for loss amounts, you should never automatically assume you even have a hint at the losses at the 1/X+ probability). Seriously, stock data seems to be composed of, at its simplest, a splice of the Galton and the Pareto*** distributions (or maybe Galton and Cauchy****?) with a weight of like .999 for Galton; doesn't mean you can assume the distribution is entirely Galton.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Jave D » Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:29 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:
Diadem wrote:So, Santorum drops the n-word on Obama. He catches himself halfway, and no doubt his team will try to spin it, but I can't see what else he was going to say.

Surprisingly, none of the big media corporations are writing about this. Not sure why.

That syllable, or something that sounds like it, also appears in many words that have nothing to do with being a racist.


Let's do a quick brainstorm on all words that start with "nig" that have nothing to do with being a racist.


Bonus points if it makes any sense when coupled with what Santorum was actually saying.







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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby ahammel » Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:57 pm UTC

Jave D wrote:Let's do a quick brainstorm on all words that start with "nig" that have nothing to do with being a racist.


Bonus points if it makes any sense when coupled with what Santorum was actually saying.

Stand back! I'm going to try regular expressions!

A quick grep of a word list I keep on my computer for such occasions yields a number of suggestions including "enigma", "denigrate", "nigardly", "renigs", "pfennig" (rather unlikely), "singger" and "wannigan" (I had to look it up). If we also allow "nik", there are more possibilities. I like to think that he was about to call the president a "nudnik" and follow it up with an "oy vey iz mir!" before he realized that his handlers told him to go easy on the Yiddish. Whether any of those make sense is immaterial, because when people are speaking aloud, they sometimes use incorrect or nonsensical words. Particularly if they're in stressful situations, like speaking in public for example.

Seriously: Santorum is a bad man. We don't need to pretend that he said something horrible, because he says horrible things all the time.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:00 pm UTC

That's not necessarily how a language error works. That is not necessarily relevant to your post.

Edit: This was directed at Jave D. I seem to have been ninjad.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Jave D » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:21 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:
Jave D wrote:Let's do a quick brainstorm on all words that start with "nig" that have nothing to do with being a racist.


Bonus points if it makes any sense when coupled with what Santorum was actually saying.

Stand back! I'm going to try regular expressions!

A quick grep of a word list I keep on my computer for such occasions yields a number of suggestions including "enigma", "denigrate", "nigardly", "renigs", "pfennig" (rather unlikely), "singger" and "wannigan" (I had to look it up). If we also allow "nik", there are more possibilities. I like to think that he was about to call the president a "nudnik" and follow it up with an "oy vey iz mir!" before he realized that his handlers told him to go easy on the Yiddish. Whether any of those make sense is immaterial, because when people are speaking aloud, they sometimes use incorrect or nonsensical words. Particularly if they're in stressful situations, like speaking in public for example.


Sometimes when they are speaking aloud, they sometimes use words they mean to say but realize they should not say. It's called a Freudian slip. Particularly if they are in stressful situations! And I like to analyze what people say based on something more than "He was under stress so the words don't matter or make sense" guideline. Makes the world more interesting to me. I like that whole "meaning" thing. There's more meaning in that he was trying to appeal to the idea, held by many of his constituents, that Obama is a nigger, than that he was just spouting nonsense words and speaking in tongues or appealing to the idea that people think "Obama is an enigma" and he forgot the "e" and left out the "ma" before running off to an unrelated subject entirely.

Seriously: Santorum is a bad man. We don't need to pretend that he said something horrible, because he says horrible things all the time.


Who's pretending?

And I'm not limited to criticizing a man for saying just one thing, you know. I am large. I contain multitudes!
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:59 pm UTC

Wait, does anyone have evidence that Santorum used 'nigger' to refer to people in the past? Because people that use that word never do it once.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Nordic Einar » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:29 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:I honestly can't figure out what Santorum was trying to say. Anti-war, government Negro doesn't really make sense.


Griffin wrote:The statement, no matter which word you put at the end, is not uncommonly hear in certain areas of the South to my understanding.


For those of you who aren't from south of the Mason-Dixie, "Government Nigger" is an extremely common term used to describe low-income blacks on welfare. It's the much more overtly racist "welfare queen".

It's an incredibly common phrase, and knowing the folks I know it's exactly what they heard. Maybe this is a cultural thing, but if you know the south (or The-South-In-The-North like parts of Michigan and Wisconsin...) it's really, really obvious what he went to say.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby bentheimmigrant » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:54 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wait, does anyone have evidence that Santorum used 'nigger' to refer to people in the past? Because people that use that word never do it once.

That's kinda the point. If he slips and it comes out, it's a sign of the things he's willing to say in private.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:00 pm UTC

I was at first inclined to assume it was just some sort of verbal hiccup, by my wife who spent close to ten years in Texas and has been exposed to a lot more folks who thought it was okay to use racial epithets is sure he meant the n-word. And yes "government n*****" is a common phrase in certain circles.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:03 am UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Wait, does anyone have evidence that Santorum used 'nigger' to refer to people in the past? Because people that use that word never do it once.

That's kinda the point. If he slips and it comes out, it's a sign of the things he's willing to say in private.

Yes I know, but that would also mean if he really was saying what we think he was saying, he would've used it at other times. Other times which may have been recorded.

I'm trying my damnedest to give everyone the benefit of reasonable doubt, but I'm having trouble coming up with a reasonable explanation other than "homophobic ass is also racist". Maybe Santorum thinks that Obama's real birth certificate shows he's Nicaraguan, but he realized that now is not the time to reveal that?
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Cathy » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:23 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Maybe Santorum thinks that Obama's real birth certificate shows he's Nicaraguan, but he realized that now is not the time to reveal that?

This made me giggle so much. Thank you!
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Diadem » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:36 pm UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:
Роберт wrote:I honestly can't figure out what Santorum was trying to say. Anti-war, government Negro doesn't really make sense.


Griffin wrote:The statement, no matter which word you put at the end, is not uncommonly hear in certain areas of the South to my understanding.


For those of you who aren't from south of the Mason-Dixie, "Government Nigger" is an extremely common term used to describe low-income blacks on welfare. It's the much more overtly racist "welfare queen".

It's an incredibly common phrase, and knowing the folks I know it's exactly what they heard. Maybe this is a cultural thing, but if you know the south (or The-South-In-The-North like parts of Michigan and Wisconsin...) it's really, really obvious what he went to say.

This, exactly. Thank you.

Sure we can speculate endlessly about all other possible words he may have wanted to say. But if you look at his speech, he's in the middle of a sentence, speaking clearly and passionately. Then he says half a word, stumbles, stops, and goes on about something completely different. Even people who are bad at public speaking do not do that for no reason at all. Bad speakers put in umhs and ahs, but not like that. He clearly was saying a real word, not just making a sound.

Not many other words fit, and those that fit wouldn't have made him stumble like that.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby jakovasaur » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:05 pm UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:For those of you who aren't from south of the Mason-Dixie, "Government Nigger" is an extremely common term used to describe low-income blacks on welfare. It's the much more overtly racist "welfare queen".

...So do you think Santorum thinks Obama is a low-income black on welfare?
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Qaanol » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:07 pm UTC

I think we should start using “government-nik” as a disparaging term for politicians who want to use the power of government to reduce freedom and tell other people how to live their private lives. You know, the anti-liberty type.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby lutzj » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:10 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
Nordic Einar wrote:For those of you who aren't from south of the Mason-Dixie, "Government Nigger" is an extremely common term used to describe low-income blacks on welfare. It's the much more overtly racist "welfare queen".

...So do you think Santorum thinks Obama is a low-income black on welfare?


He probably thinks that Obama's father was, and that Obama panders to low-income blacks on welfare. Between those two pieces of damning evidence, Obama must secretly be one himself.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Tirian » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:19 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:...So do you think Santorum thinks Obama is a low-income black on welfare?


Obama's not making a million dollars a year (any more), he has dark skin, and he lives on government checks in federally subsidized housing. You figure it out.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Nordic Einar » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:25 pm UTC

lutzj wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:
Nordic Einar wrote:For those of you who aren't from south of the Mason-Dixie, "Government Nigger" is an extremely common term used to describe low-income blacks on welfare. It's the much more overtly racist "welfare queen".

...So do you think Santorum thinks Obama is a low-income black on welfare?


He probably thinks that Obama's father was, and that Obama panders to low-income blacks on welfare. Between those two pieces of damning evidence, Obama must secretly be one himself.


This. Look at the rhetoric surrounding blacks Santorum has been using in the last year, and the rhetoric Republicans use about "socialism" and Obama's "redistribution of wealth." Look at the way they talk about "entitlements", or welfare in general.

The disparaging commentary around Obama's community organizing in his youth is kind of telling, too.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Jave D » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:39 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
Nordic Einar wrote:For those of you who aren't from south of the Mason-Dixie, "Government Nigger" is an extremely common term used to describe low-income blacks on welfare. It's the much more overtly racist "welfare queen".

...So do you think Santorum thinks Obama is a low-income black on welfare?


I can't help but notice that Republican rhetoric for the past four years has been peppered with copious amounts of talk of Obama's "thugs." Does that mean that Republicans who use that language literally believe officials in the administration are low-income, violent gang-members? No. It is merely a disparaging way to use the negative connotations of that to apply to otherwise non-negative situations.

Same with this.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby jakovasaur » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:18 pm UTC

Jave D wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:
Nordic Einar wrote:For those of you who aren't from south of the Mason-Dixie, "Government Nigger" is an extremely common term used to describe low-income blacks on welfare. It's the much more overtly racist "welfare queen".

...So do you think Santorum thinks Obama is a low-income black on welfare?


I can't help but notice that Republican rhetoric for the past four years has been peppered with copious amounts of talk of Obama's "thugs." Does that mean that Republicans who use that language literally believe officials in the administration are low-income, violent gang-members? No. It is merely a disparaging way to use the negative connotations of that to apply to otherwise non-negative situations.

Same with this.

"Thug" is used all the time, by both parties, to refer to people they don't agree with. You've never heard someone say "Rethuglican"?
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Jave D » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:35 pm UTC

People on both parties can call someone a "nigger" too. Doesn't really change the point.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Garm » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:56 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:"Thug" is used all the time, by both parties, to refer to people they don't agree with. You've never heard someone say "Rethuglican"?


Those people are stupid. Also, too: not prominent pundits or presidential candidates.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Vaniver » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:06 am UTC

lutzj wrote:He probably thinks that Obama's father was
"Nigerian" is, of course, a plausible thing that Santorum could have been about to say, though also bizarre.

Once again, it looks like it's time to talk about pareidolia and speech errors. Human brains have sophisticated error-correcting audio software. So if you hear noise but expect it to sound like a particular word, you'll hear the word far more clearly than it is in the raw audio. You can experience this with sine wave speech; listen to the SWS, then the original, then the SWS. The SWS will not have changed but your perception of it will. As well, speech errors are generally not significant- someone who says "bed and butter" instead of "bread and butter" is far more likely to be tired than unconsciously expressing a desire for sex. (That is, Freud is mostly wrong about Freudian slips).
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:12 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:"Nigerian" is, of course, a plausible thing that Santorum could have been about to say, though also bizarre.


Um, maybe if you're deaf. 'Nigerian' and N***** sound absolutely nothing alike. That's aside from the fact that Obama has no connection whatsoever to Nigeria ans his father is from Kenya, a rather well-known fact - but hey, if you're saying Santorum is an ignorant racist who thinks there's no difference between African nations I suppose that might be irrelevant.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:26 am UTC

That's not necessarily how a language error works. That is not necessarily relevant to your post.
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Vaniver » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:16 pm UTC

Jonesthe Spy wrote:Um, maybe if you're deaf. 'Nigerian' and N***** sound absolutely nothing alike.
They both begin similarly, and the beginning is about all that Santorum said.

Jonesthe Spy wrote:That's aside from the fact that Obama has no connection whatsoever to Nigeria ans his father is from Kenya, a rather well-known fact - but hey, if you're saying Santorum is an ignorant racist who thinks there's no difference between African nations I suppose that might be irrelevant.
I should admit to this, though: I forgot which country Obama's father was from (because that's not something I care about).
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby yurell » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:28 pm UTC

/naɪ'dʒ/ does sound rather different to /nɪɡ/, though.
cemper93 wrote:Dude, I just presented an elaborate multiple fraction in Comic Sans. Who are you to question me?


Pronouns: Feminine pronouns please!
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Re: U.S. Republican Primary

Postby Diadem » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:37 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:"Nigerian" is, of course, a plausible thing that Santorum could have been about to say, though also bizarre.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
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