Game of Throngs

[TamH70]

Well, are you really surprised? Auntie Beeb has been doing that for decades. The kindly old aunt that hits you with a tax every year for daring to visit her, and all her sweeties are spoilt. The kind of aunt that strychnine is made for, in other words.

[Ryom]

Season 2 premiered tonight and no responses? You're all fired!

[ArgonV]

Just watched it

Spoiler:

• Joffry is such a babykilling arrogant asshat. Hope he dies soon, although he makes an excellent villain.
• Those burning effigies were the seven old gods, I presume?
• I'd hoped to see some more ice zombies, instead of a jealous guy with 14 daughter-wives (and was thinking let them have some fun, good for genetic diversity)
• Dragons only eat human flesh, I presume?
• Nice to see Jamie taken down a notch
• Ros really seemed to have worked her way up (and I recognized the one 'exotic' girl. She's a British porn star, what does that say about me? )
• I was hoping for an actual burning sword, especially after the preacher seemed to have some magic ability, resisting the poison

And Tyrion was awesome as always, but that is not a spoiler

[LaserGuy]

My thoughts on this episode:

Spoiler:

A little disappointing, honestly. Not a whole lot actually happened--it spend most of the time reminding us of where everyone was and what they were up to, and moving characters into their appropriate places for the rest of the series. And introducing Stannis, of course. Cersei had a number of really great scenes this episode though--her and Tyrion, her and Littlefinger, her and Joffrey. The CGI wolf very obviously CGI. I don't understand exactly why it didn't look right--it might have even just been the lighting, because the dragons still look pretty good. Was kind of hoping for some more love for Arya this episode, since she is one of the main storylines in book 2.

Peter Dinklage has been moved up to top billing in the credits.

Just watched it

Spoiler:

• Joffry is such a babykilling arrogant asshat. Hope he dies soon, although he makes an excellent villain.
• Those burning effigies were the seven old gods, I presume?
• I'd hoped to see some more ice zombies, instead of a jealous guy with 14 daughter-wives (and was thinking let them have some fun, good for genetic diversity)
• Dragons only eat human flesh, I presume?
• Nice to see Jamie taken down a notch
• Ros really seemed to have worked her way up (and I recognized the one 'exotic' girl. She's a British porn star, what does that say about me? )
• I was hoping for an actual burning sword, especially after the preacher seemed to have some magic ability, resisting the poison

And Tyrion was awesome as always, but that is not a spoiler

Here's my mostly non-spoily response to your spoilers.

Spoiler:

• Watch and find out
• Yes, the burning effigies were the Seven. The red priestess worships a new god. This becomes pretty important as the series progresses.
• Don't worry, you'll get your zombies.
• Dragons need cooked food
• He's got farther to fall yet.
• Don't really have much to comment on here. I think she's replaced another character in the book. I did notice that a lot of her lines in that scene (until the soldiers appeared) were almost word-for-word what Littlefinger told her in season 1.
• Watch and find out

[Diadem]

Response to Laserguy:

Spoiler:

Agreed. The episode was a bit bland. Not much happened. Still promises good things to come though.

Extra spoiler for later book spoilers. Read at your own risk!

Spoiler:

They seem to be hinting at a romance between Daenerys and Ser Jorah Mormont. In the books, iirc, he clearly has somewhat of a crush on her, but she never returns it. I wonder if they are going to deviate from that.

[Obby]

Extra spoiler for later book spoilers. Read at your own risk!

Spoiler:

They seem to be hinting at a romance between Daenerys and Ser Jorah Mormont. In the books, iirc, he clearly has somewhat of a crush on her, but she never returns it. I wonder if they are going to deviate from that.

More book spoilers:

Spoiler:

I don't see how they can. It's pretty important later on in the series that Mormont gets cast away from Danaerys, and one of her reasons for doing this is that she never really trusted him after he showed her that he felt something for her. I guess they could have her reciprocate then change her mind later... but there wouldn't really be a point to changing the scene only to end up at the same point, when what's in the book is perfectly fine as a device to accomplish the same thing. I feel like it would just take up unnecessary screen time on something that is ultimately pointless.

[Dark567]

Response to Laserguy:

Spoiler:

Agreed. The episode was a bit bland. Not much happened. Still promises good things to come though.

Not really a spoiler but still:

Spoiler:

Having not read the books, I found this episode way harder to follow than anything in the first season. I had to stop and rewind multiple times to make sure I knew what was happening.

Also could we clearly indicate when things are book spoilers versus tv spoilers. Thanks Diadem and Obby.

[Yakk]

Book level spoiler:

Spoiler:

Actually, it is pretty clear to me that she does return it to a certain extent. I interpreted it as the level of crush that a high school student might have on a teacher.

The betrayal of that crush is one of the many scars that turn her into something really, really scary.

[maybeagnostic]

Book level spoiler:

Spoiler:

Actually, it is pretty clear to me that she does return it to a certain extent. I interpreted it as the level of crush that a high school student might have on a teacher.

The betrayal of that crush is one of the many scars that turn her into something really, really scary

Spoiler:

She has several crushes over the books but Mormont was never one of them- I think she viewed him as more of a father figure at least until she found out about his betrayal.

But, seriously, scary? When is Daenerys scary? I am sure she will become intimidating before the end of the series but so far she is just an idealistic but incompetent leader.

[Yakk]

Please do not edit my posts in quotes that attribute your text to me.

[SlyReaper]

So I happened to pick up the first season on DVD on Friday, and spent the weekend marathoning through it. And whaddaya know, turns out the second season just started today. It's like all my Christmasses have come at once.

Spoiler:

I'm not really liking Joffrey, even as a villain. He just comes across as somewhere between a petulant child and a schoolyard bully. Only instead of atomic wedgies, he has people executed. I'd be enjoying it more if he was a complete Caligula, but he's not. He's not insane, he's just cruel, and that's boring.

But to balance that out, I'm very much enjoying any scene with The Imp in it. That guy just radiates awesome.

[Yakk]

I wish they'd have cast Joffery as a more ... beefy type. But then, I guess him being beaten in season 1 by who he was beaten by wouldn't make as much sense.

[Dark567]

I wish they'd have cast Joffery as a more ... beefy type. But then, I guess him being beaten in season 1 by who he was beaten by wouldn't make as much sense.

I honestly like how he was cast. I can't imagine a smugger looking kid. Granted I haven't read the books so maybe that isn't how he is described.

[SlyReaper]

By the way, how big is Westeros supposed to be? I originally thought it was supposed to be a fantasy version of Britain; King's Landing is roughly where London would be, and the wall is roughly where Hadrian's Wall would be (and seems to be used for much the same purpose). Northern Westerosians have northern English accents, and southern Westerosians have southern English accents. But judging by the relative climates of the places, they must be thousands of miles apart. But to counter that, the characters seem to be able to get between the wall and Kings Landing fairly quickly. Maybe it's just a very small planet? I'm also unclear on how a summer or winter could last several years, and for this to vary each time. I mean, how do they define a year if not by the time gap between summers or winters?

[Dark567]

By the way, how big is Westeros supposed to be? I originally thought it was supposed to be a fantasy version of Britain; King's Landing is roughly where London would be, and the wall is roughly where Hadrian's Wall would be (and seems to be used for much the same purpose). Northern Westerosians have northern English accents, and southern Westerosians have southern English accents. But judging by the relative climates of the places, they must be thousands of miles apart. But to counter that, the characters seem to be able to get between the wall and Kings Landing fairly quickly. Maybe it's just a very small planet? I'm also unclear on how a summer or winter could last several years, and for this to vary each time. I mean, how do they define a year if not by the time gap between summers or winters?

So the size of Westeros in Martin's notes is approximately the size of South America, so much larger then Britain. So I have heard from my friends that have read the books and seen the show is that travel seems to happen a lot faster in the show, which is probably just the medium. Apparently it is actually weeks if not months between travels from the wall to King's Landing. The season's just work that way... I have no idea how they measure years.

[maybeagnostic]

Please do not edit my posts in quotes that attribute your text to me.

I wasn't actually attributing anything to you but I removed the change.

I mean, how do they define a year if not by the time gap between summers or winters?

I think the idea is that they still have minor variations sufficient enough to differentiate seasons but they probably use the position of the sun to keep track of time. I always interpreted 'winter' to be a mini-ice age lasting anywhere from 5 to 200 years and, like our ice ages, driven by something other than relative position to the sun. I think recently winters have lasted 5-10 years but the books mention legendary long ago winters lasting generations.

[Jave D]

Maybe the whole thing is an allegory for anthropogenic climate change. Or environmentalism.
"Winter is coming.
...And then a Silent Spring is coming too!"



...I hope not.


...I feel dirty for even saying it.

[Diadem]

By the way, how big is Westeros supposed to be? I originally thought it was supposed to be a fantasy version of Britain; King's Landing is roughly where London would be, and the wall is roughly where Hadrian's Wall would be (and seems to be used for much the same purpose). Northern Westerosians have northern English accents, and southern Westerosians have southern English accents. But judging by the relative climates of the places, they must be thousands of miles apart. But to counter that, the characters seem to be able to get between the wall and Kings Landing fairly quickly. Maybe it's just a very small planet? I'm also unclear on how a summer or winter could last several years, and for this to vary each time. I mean, how do they define a year if not by the time gap between summers or winters?

So the size of Westeros in Martin's notes is approximately the size of South America, so much larger then Britain. So I have heard from my friends that have read the books and seen the show is that travel seems to happen a lot faster in the show, which is probably just the medium. Apparently it is actually weeks if not months between travels from the wall to King's Landing. The season's just work that way... I have no idea how they measure years.

Yeah Westeros is pretty much an entire continent. It's located entirely on the northern hemisphere, considering the south of Westeros is quite tropical while the north is very very cold. It's unclear how far beyond the wall the continent goes on, but the world being the size of earth and Westeros being the size of South America would certainly fit. The other continent, the one where Daenerys is, is much bigger, think Asia, and also mostly on the northern hemisphere. I vaguely recall a mention third continent in the south, but I'm not sure any more.

Travel is always greatly reduced in movies or tv shows. You see the same in Lord of the Rings. I guess travel is boring.

No one knows how the winters work. The people in the books have no idea how it works, and it's not revealed to the reader either. I think winters typically last a few years, and summers a few years longer than winters. But both can last much longer. There's myths about winters that lasted generations, but in recorded history none have. One thing that is unclear to me is how severe exactly a winter is. They are stocking food for the winter, and it's implied that they can't grow food during the winter. But if winters sometimes last over a decade, they must be, or they'd all have gone extinct ages ago.

By the way: King's Landing is not in the south of Westeros. The southern and northern part of Westeros are about equally big (though the north is very sparsely populated), and King's landing is slightly in the northern half of the southern part.

[Dark567]

No one knows how the winters work. The people in the books have no idea how it works, and it's not revealed to the reader either. I think winters typically last a few years, and summers a few years longer than winters. But both can last much longer. There's myths about winters that lasted generations, but in recorded history none have. One thing that is unclear to me is how severe exactly a winter is. They are stocking food for the winter, and it's implied that they can't grow food during the winter. But if winters sometimes last over a decade, they must be, or they'd all have gone extinct ages ago.
.

Minor spoiler concerning winter from last night:

Spoiler:

Last night Little Finger basically said that if winter came they would have enough food for 5 years for everyone, and longer if they decided to not feed the peasants. Presumably if you let a good portion of people starve you could survive fairly long.

[maybeagnostic]

No one knows how the winters work. The people in the books have no idea how it works, and it's not revealed to the reader either. I think winters typically last a few years, and summers a few years longer than winters. But both can last much longer. There's myths about winters that lasted generations, but in recorded history none have. One thing that is unclear to me is how severe exactly a winter is. They are stocking food for the winter, and it's implied that they can't grow food during the winter. But if winters sometimes last over a decade, they must be, or they'd all have gone extinct ages ago.
.

Minor spoiler concerning winter from last night:

Spoiler:

Last night Little Finger basically said that if winter came they would have enough food for 5 years for everyone, and longer if they decided to not feed the peasants. Presumably if you let a good portion of people starve you could survive fairly long.

Minor spoilers from... uh, some book. They really don't concern the plot directly and I can't imagine the show will have time to cover them:

Spoiler:

Bran is told that in true Winter the snow piles higher than the walls of Winterfell even though a Winter that bad hasn't happened in Ned's generation. That's in the North though, supposedly they get milder the farther south you go and I don't think the South has seen any significant snowfall in decades. I think the ones lasting generations are mythical Winters back from when the Walkers and Children were still around- you know, the times of Brandon the Builder and magic so either that is inaccurate/exaggerated information or, more likely, everyone in the North died and only the people in the South survived. That's from the age of the First Men so long before the Seven Kingdoms were created and long before written history. In the beginning of the series these are just fairy tales that educated people generally don't believe in.

[Dark567]

I think the idea is that they still have minor variations sufficient enough to differentiate seasons but they probably use the position of the sun to keep track of time. I always interpreted 'winter' to be a mini-ice age lasting anywhere from 5 to 200 years and, like our ice ages, driven by something other than relative position to the sun. I think recently winters have lasted 5-10 years but the books mention legendary long ago winters lasting generations.

So I was just watching the commentary on the DVD's, and according to the producers(Not GRRM), the world is actually the inside of spherical shell, with the sun in the middle, basically a Dyson sphere. Pretty sure that's just something they made up for the show though.

EDIT: Actually, after thinking about it, that's a little ridiculous as during the show you can see the horizon.

[PCal]

They couldn't come up with something a bit better and believable like the tilt of the planet changes as it orbits since tilt is what gives us seasons.

[LaserGuy]

By the way, how big is Westeros supposed to be? I originally thought it was supposed to be a fantasy version of Britain; King's Landing is roughly where London would be, and the wall is roughly where Hadrian's Wall would be (and seems to be used for much the same purpose). Northern Westerosians have northern English accents, and southern Westerosians have southern English accents. But judging by the relative climates of the places, they must be thousands of miles apart. But to counter that, the characters seem to be able to get between the wall and Kings Landing fairly quickly. Maybe it's just a very small planet? I'm also unclear on how a summer or winter could last several years, and for this to vary each time. I mean, how do they define a year if not by the time gap between summers or winters?

So the size of Westeros in Martin's notes is approximately the size of South America, so much larger then Britain. So I have heard from my friends that have read the books and seen the show is that travel seems to happen a lot faster in the show, which is probably just the medium. Apparently it is actually weeks if not months between travels from the wall to King's Landing. The season's just work that way... I have no idea how they measure years.

I found some analysis here (minor spoilers) that, taking the length of the Wall to be 300 miles, then we can crudely estimate that Winterfell and King's landing are about 1200 miles apart. A cursory search suggests that a typical medieval army on good roads would march about 10 miles per day. Assuming that is a fairly reasonable speed, then we can start talking about how long it takes to get around. It would have taken about 2 months for Robb's army to march from Winterfell to the Twins (never mind the time taken to call the banners and get everyone organized), and another month to reach Riverrun for his sneak attack against Jamie. Robert probably would have been away from King's landing for 6-8 months while he was traveling to Winterfell to fetch Ned to make him Hand. The whole first season of the show/first book, would take place over maybe a year.

GRRM has intentionally not included scales on any of his maps in the books, and is fairly vague about how long it takes people to travel anywhere or how far they've gone.

[CorruptUser]

Minor book 5 spoilers regarding food and winter

Spoiler:

In Dance with Dragons, it's noted that Winterfell had greenhouses large enough to feed its garrison throughout winter, but they were of course destroyed because this is GRRM and we can't have nice things. The Wildlings (prior to the zombies) could survive like the Inuit if need be, ice fishing and hunting mammoths and seals and whales and whatever else is up north. North of the wall isn't necessarily all snow, as anyone who lives near/in Canada will tell you it does NOT snow when it's way below freezing; it's possible for lichens and weird fantasy plants to survive as food for elk for people to eat.

[Adacore]

Very minor episode spoiler:

Spoiler:

I think the CGI wolf looked ok, although it was obvious that Robb was just reaching into air when he went to pet it. It does look worse than the dragons, but I suspect that's because realistic-looking fur/hair is incredibly hard to do in CGI. I am glad they changed it from being dogs, though, because direwolves are supposed to be huge.

And some minor book spoilers:

Spoiler:

I wonder what they'll do with Robb this season. He was barely in book 2 at all (did he even have a single chapter?) - all his battles in the west were 'off stage' in the book; you learnt about them when other characters discussed the war. But they've got an actor for Robb in the show, so it would make sense that they'll want to use him and actually show some of that stuff.

[LaserGuy]

And some minor book spoilers:

Spoiler:

I wonder what they'll do with Robb this season. He was barely in book 2 at all (did he even have a single chapter?) - all his battles in the west were 'off stage' in the book; you learnt about them when other characters discussed the war. But they've got an actor for Robb in the show, so it would make sense that they'll want to use him and actually show some of that stuff.

Spoiler:

I think they're going to spend some time on Robb's campaign, and, if the trailers are any indication, probably develop his relationship with Jeyne Westerling. Some of the other minor threads (Renly's side of things) also look to be getting more screen time than the book provides. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that we will see a lot of episodes where one or more groups will be absent. I don't think they normally have more than 5 or so different POVs per episode, and considering how many threads they have to follow, somebody is going to get missed now and then.

[SlyReaper]

Very minor episode spoiler:

Spoiler:

I think the CGI wolf looked ok, although it was obvious that Robb was just reaching into air when he went to pet it. It does look worse than the dragons, but I suspect that's because realistic-looking fur/hair is incredibly hard to do in CGI. I am glad they changed it from being dogs, though, because direwolves are supposed to be huge.

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure the wolves were supposed to be small in the first season because they were just pups. As in, a direwolf pup is as big as a full grown normal wolf.

I thought the scene with the wolf was very well done. I didn't notice the CGI being particularly bad, and the sense of menace certainly increased tenfold when it entered the cage with Rob and Jaime. Don't fuck with Rob - he's got an incredibly scary wolf that's incredibly well trained.

[Ulc]

By the way, how big is Westeros supposed to be? I originally thought it was supposed to be a fantasy version of Britain; King's Landing is roughly where London would be, and the wall is roughly where Hadrian's Wall would be (and seems to be used for much the same purpose). Northern Westerosians have northern English accents, and southern Westerosians have southern English accents. But judging by the relative climates of the places, they must be thousands of miles apart. But to counter that, the characters seem to be able to get between the wall and Kings Landing fairly quickly. Maybe it's just a very small planet? I'm also unclear on how a summer or winter could last several years, and for this to vary each time. I mean, how do they define a year if not by the time gap between summers or winters?

Some mild spoilering about the climate as it appears from the books - and season 1 episode 1+2 spoilers a little bit:

Spoiler:

The distinct impression that I've always got from the books was that there was winter and summer like on earth, just a little less pronounced, at regular intervals corresponding to a year. Every once in a while (5-7 seems to be the norm) a Big Winter would break out, and those would more accurately be described as an incredible short ice age, rather than a winter as we know it.

During the long summers the south of Westeros could probably get off two harvests per year, explaining the abundance, during winter; only one. The North probably doesn't get any harvests during the big winters, necessitating the need for serious storage.

The fact that the current Big Summer have last 11-12 years are quite unusual, that much is pretty clear. But in general, I wouldn't recommend being to fixated on limiting the world too harshly to what we know.

The size of westeros in the show is a bit of a cheat as well, in the book it's made clear that it takes the king several months to reach winterfell (and that he, in the typical unthinking fashion of Robert, did not think to send a message to his old friend that the King would be arriving with the whole fucking circus and might need food for a couple of weeks..), and when Cat travels to kings landing by boat, it takes her a month, and she arrives well before the kings caravan.

[Adacore]

Very minor episode spoiler:

Spoiler:

I think the CGI wolf looked ok, although it was obvious that Robb was just reaching into air when he went to pet it. It does look worse than the dragons, but I suspect that's because realistic-looking fur/hair is incredibly hard to do in CGI. I am glad they changed it from being dogs, though, because direwolves are supposed to be huge.

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure the wolves were supposed to be small in the first season because they were just pups. As in, a direwolf pup is as big as a full grown normal wolf.

I thought the scene with the wolf was very well done. I didn't notice the CGI being particularly bad, and the sense of menace certainly increased tenfold when it entered the cage with Rob and Jaime. Don't fuck with Rob - he's got an incredibly scary wolf that's incredibly well trained.

Spoiler:

Yeah, they were supposed to be pups in the first season, but I was worried they'd just stick with full-grown dogs, rather than having them grow any larger than that. I agree it was a good scene, it will be interesting to see how the wolves look when they have to interact more with the human cast.

[Ryom]

I'd rather they used real dogs and messed with the perspective à la Lord of the Rings.

[CorruptUser]

So, Huskies for the Starks, Samoyed for Snow?

I don't know, how can this be dire?

[ArgonV]

You could just paint a husky white

[Adacore]

So, Huskies for the Starks, Samoyed for Snow?

I believe they were using Northern Inuits for the direwolves. They look fairly wolf-esque, but just don't have the same sense of menace as can be conveyed by the CGI wolf, and it's a lot of effort to train them to perform complex actions.

And you can get pretty much pure-white huskies too, one of our dogs was a Siberian Husky with only a small patch of grey on her back, she was almost entirely white.

[gmalivuk]

Let me know if you think any of this needs spoilers, but I seriously don't see how it would.

On the climate: I just sort of pretend they have a variable star messing with their climate on multiyear time scales, with only a little bit of axial tilt to mark individual harvesting seasons and years. (And of course they can count years astronomically just like anyone else, axial tilt or no.) The show's intro makes it look like it's on the inside of a sphere, but I don't think there's any indication of that in the books nor is it consistent with basic things like having nights.

On the distance: isn't it said pretty explicitly that it's 1000 leagues (3000 miles) from King's Landing to the Wall?

Edit: half that, apparently. There's a map placing Westeros in comparison with Europe here. Twist things around a little bit, and you even get some handy national/historical stereotypes to go with some of the different regions. King's Landing is Rome, the Iron Islands are Denmark, Dorne is North Africa, and so on.

[Diadem]

It is said explicitly that it is a thousand leagues from King's Landing to the Wall. It is said by Yoren to his group of recruits (including Arya) in one of the trailers for season 2.

Of course we don't know how long a league is. There are many kinds of leagues. Google translate gives a league as 5.556 kilometers (3.45 miles), which seems to be a nautical league, almost certainly not what Westeros is using.

In ancient Rome a league was 2.22 kilometers. In England it was 4.8 kilometers, in France it was 4.68 km. I'm guessing GRRM is using Roman leagues (if he defined them at all).

edit: If that map showing an overlay of Westeros and Europe is correct (and many such maps aren't) then the distance from King's Landing to the Wall roughly corresponds to the distance from Belomorsk, Russia to Brescia, Italy, which is 2594 kilometers. Close enough to say that GRRM is using Roman Leagues.

[Adacore]

The Westeros-Europe overlay map seems reasonable, from the perspective of the relative climates and travel times described in the book. It also implies that while the North will get really damn cold during winter, the south will probably remain fairly habitable. Looking at the glacial maximum from the last ice age on Earth, it would pretty much cover everything north of the Neck, if the overlay map matches up.

[gmalivuk]

In ancient Rome a league was 2.22 kilometers. In England it was 4.8 kilometers, in France it was 4.68 km. I'm guessing GRRM is using Roman leagues (if he defined them at all).

There is mention in one of the books that a league is 3 miles, though I suppose miles might be different in Westeros than in the USCS, as well.

[Diadem]

In ancient Rome a league was 2.22 kilometers. In England it was 4.8 kilometers, in France it was 4.68 km. I'm guessing GRRM is using Roman leagues (if he defined them at all).

There is mention in one of the books that a league is 3 miles, though I suppose miles might be different in Westeros than in the USCS, as well.

I see. I don't recall that mention.

I assume miles are miles, Would be disorientating otherwise. But then there is no way that King's Landing and the wall are 1000 leagues apart. Of course, there is another very plausible explanation. Yoren may simply have been using hyperbole.

[SlyReaper]

I wouldn't take the 1000 leagues thing too seriously. I thought it was more like an exaggeration like "it's a million miles from here to the wall".

[gmalivuk]

There is mention in one of the books that a league is 3 miles

I see. I don't recall that mention.

In one of the books (I think the 5th) someone is described as being 100 leagues from Winterfell, or 300 miles "as the raven flies".