Werewolf - Game Over: The Dark Lord Rises

[DaBigCheez]

Hmm...my usual MO of "toss out tons of rolespec D1" doesn't seem likely to be much use here, given the vagueness of the flavor. But I'll do what I can!

I know traditionally Werewolf is basically "s/mafia/werewolf", so at first glance, it seems most likely that we'd just have town, werewolf, and some independents - it seems like there'd have to be an awful lot of wolves for that to be balanced in a game this size, though, so while I don't *like* the assumption of two competing scum factions it seems like a good theory on a meta-level (game's easier to balance/more reasonable numbers of each faction with two competing scum factions). Either that, or we'd have to have a lot of independents working at cross-purposes.

Despite knowing that werewolves are functionally the same as mafia members in most Werewolf games, I keep wanting to believe that they're a cult (after all, lycanthropy is communicable), and then I read the rules post and am reminded they're not, then the idea starts creeping back in again...it's mildly infuriating

As far as town role speculation:
Cop: can be taken for granted - in a game this size, I'd be suspicious that we may have a second, non-sane cop, just to muddy things up, especially if there's two scum factions (I don't know what flavor said non-sanity would take)
Doc: can be taken for granted
Vig: very likely if there's no second scum faction, just to prevent the game from taking forever; I will frankly be very surprised if there's only one nightkill in the game, and would not be particularly surprised if there turned out to be three or more potential kills/night
Watcher/Tracker: Probably at least one, especially if there's a non-sane cop
Jailkeeper/Roleblocker: Probably one or the other
Busdriver: I hope not, they always confuse the hell out of things

Scum role speculation:
Roleblocker, godfather, regular goon, the usual; don't really have much to go on here, so it's just "assume fairly standard powers". I wouldn't be surprised if there's a voterigger in the game, though, given the setting.


Finally, I've noticed a really obvious pattern. Misnomer comes into town, and suddenly someone starts dying each night? Come on, people, it's *obvious* who the werewolf is here, let's just get the easy WW lynch out of the way.
Vote: Misnomer

(Mod-ninja: Lies and deception! He's obviously just trying to weasel his way out of the lynch!)

[JesseScottOwen]

Yay, bandwagon!

Vote: Misnomer

[mpolo]

Let's not bandwagon the "No-Lynch" option!

[Adam H]

Hey hey hey! I am indeed playing in this game.

So... the last werewolf game on this forum was called "mafia + werewolf", and the scum factions were mafia and werewolf. And this game is called "werewolf". So I don't know why people think there's a mafia faction in this game. Big FoS to greenlover, tasteslikecoke, and Outnuendo for that. (Honestly, I'm having trouble telling who thinks there's a mafia faction. Just tell me if I misread a post).

There's a lot of ways to speed up and balance large games without having two scum factions. You can have SKs, vigs, arsons, jesterbombs, culting mechanisms (though not a cult apparently), etc. I think we are looking at 4-5 werewolves, 11-13 town, and 2-5 indies.

And can I politely suggest we stop screwing around? It's a waste of my time to sift through 20 joke posts.

[Snark]

5 indies? Seems unlikely.

I'm cool with being done with jokes. That's all some people want to do and it's perfect active lurking material for scum.

[Outnuendo]

So... the last werewolf game on this forum was called "mafia + werewolf", and the scum factions were mafia and werewolf. And this game is called "werewolf". So I don't know why people think there's a mafia faction in this game. Big FoS to greenlover, tasteslikecoke, and Outnuendo for that. (Honestly, I'm having trouble telling who thinks there's a mafia faction. Just tell me if I misread a post).

Except for the fact that most werewolf games do have an additional faction. Just because the last game had a bit more specific title doesn't mean that this one lacks mafia.

This is worthy of an FOS?

[DaBigCheez]

So... the last werewolf game on this forum was called "mafia + werewolf", and the scum factions were mafia and werewolf. And this game is called "werewolf". So I don't know why people think there's a mafia faction in this game. Big FoS to greenlover, tasteslikecoke, and Outnuendo for that. (Honestly, I'm having trouble telling who thinks there's a mafia faction. Just tell me if I misread a post).

Except for the fact that most werewolf games do have an additional faction.

[citation needed] - my understanding is that werewolf is just a different tileset/flavor-wrapping for mafia. (s/mafia/werewolf, s/cop/seer, etc.) Or are you talking about on this forum in particular/groups predisposed to the "mafia" flavor and having a stand-in "werewolf" flavor game?

[JesseScottOwen]

Wait, a Mafia game without Mafia? Or is the Mafia just called the Werewolves?

[Outnuendo]

[citation needed] - my understanding is that werewolf is just a different tileset/flavor-wrapping for mafia. (s/mafia/werewolf, s/cop/seer, etc.) Or are you talking about on this forum in particular/groups predisposed to the "mafia" flavor and having a stand-in "werewolf" flavor game?

Though it can be an alternate flavor, I've seen games that use both werewolves and mafia, as if there were two mafia factions.

[Adam H]

So... the last werewolf game on this forum was called "mafia + werewolf", and the scum factions were mafia and werewolf. And this game is called "werewolf". So I don't know why people think there's a mafia faction in this game. Big FoS to greenlover, tasteslikecoke, and Outnuendo for that. (Honestly, I'm having trouble telling who thinks there's a mafia faction. Just tell me if I misread a post).

Except for the fact that most werewolf games do have an additional faction. Just because the last game had a bit more specific title doesn't mean that this one lacks mafia.

This is worthy of an FOS?

Yes, at this point if you are assuming there's a mafia faction, you are more likely than the rest of us to actually be in that mafia faction, if it does exists. And a werewolf would want to diffuse the suspicion among as many people as possible.

Most werewolf games have an additional faction? I'm pretty sure you are just randomly making that up, which is a pretty counterproductive defense...

It always kind of annoys me when people pull the "this is what mod said before he made the game" card, but... well, here I go: In the signup thread, Angua asked misnomer what a werewolf game was, and his response was basically that it's just a regular mafia game with different flavor.

[DaBigCheez]

Wait, a Mafia game without Mafia? Or is the Mafia just called the Werewolves?

Bingo. At least as I've seen it, it's a straight-up find-and-replace the terms.

In Werewolf, the Human players must find the hidden Werewolves among them, who look and act like Humans during the day but kill during the night. The Humans may have the aid of those such as the Seer, who can determine whether someone is Human or a Werewolf. (Sometimes "innocent" or "town" rather than "Human".)

In Mafia, the Town players must find the hidden Mafia among them, who look and act like Townies during the day but kill during the night. The Townies may have the aid of those such as the Cop, who can determine whether someone is Town or Mafia.

It's a rose by any other name. The whole *reason* the "Mafia Vs. Werewolf" game earlier on these forums was so interesting, in my opinion, was *because* it combined two usually-separate phrasings into a single game as separate mechanics (thus having the playoff between two scum factions, the Cop being able to find Mafia but not Werewolves, the Seer being able to find Werewolves but not Mafia, etc.). It is not a setup I would even remotely describe as "common".

Yes, at this point if you are assuming there's a mafia faction, you are more likely than the rest of us to actually be in that mafia faction, if it does exists.

Alternately, if you're assuming there's not a mafia faction, you're more likely than the rest of us to actually be in that mafia faction, if it does exist, since you're trying to divert peoples' suspicion from it.

And if you're not stating your assumptions one way or the other, you're more likely than the rest of us to actually be in that mafia faction, if it does exist, as clearly you're active-lurking your way through the game.

Let's try to hold down the obvious wine-spewing on D1, shall we?
FoS: Adam H


PS: While I'm at it, might as well remove the comedy Misnomer vote. (Gee Willikers JesseScottOwen was third on the Misnomer lynch bandwagon, obvscum!)
Unvote

[Outnuendo]

That's an incredible reach. You're attacking me based on setup speculation, you're dismissing my rebuttal as bull (even after someone mentioned that there was a Werewolf + Mafia game) And then this

A werewolf would want to diffuse the suspicion among many people

What does this even mean? Also, how would a werewolf know wether a mafia faction exists or not.

Though If the mod did say it, there's not much to argue against.

[matt96]

It has nearly been 24 hours, time for me to
UNVOTE

[Misnomer]

Votals:

Snark (1): tastelikecoke
JesseScottOwen (1): Chickenfish
matt96 (2): greenlover, Snark
Misnomer* (2): Angua, JesseScottOwen
tastelikecoke (1): t1mm01994


Not Voting (13): matt96, wam, Gord, Dooms, CaptainFinglass, Outnuendo, Zace, ahammel, Adam H, webby, mpolo, Lataro, DaBigCheez

[Adam H]

A werewolf would want to diffuse the suspicion among many people

What does this even mean? Also, how would a werewolf know wether a mafia faction exists or not.

I meant that werewolf would want town to hunt for mafia instead of werewolf, regardless of whether the faction exists.

you're dismissing my rebuttal as bull (even after someone mentioned that there was a Werewolf + Mafia game).

Hey, that was me! I used that to demonstrate how there's probably NOT mafia in this game!

Your defense has been pathetic (no offense), but I don't really think you're scum... Dabigcheez is right that there's more than one way of looking at it. My first instinct was that it's scummy, but... eh.

But if we can't scum hunt based on setup spec, what's the point of setup spec?

[Outnuendo]

But if we can't scum hunt based on setup spec, what's the point of setup spec?

That's what I was saying earlier.

[Snark]

OMGU(don't)S (any more)
UNVOTE: matt96

Goodbye funnies. Time to put on my scum-hunting hat.

[Snark]

I think it's just about time to stop fighting over which anti-town factions are present. We'll find out within a day or two which factions are present in the game when we start killing them off. I don't think it's of much importance to us at the moment.

Lack of day-chat for scum makes me curious:
Mod, do scum/mafia/masons/whatever/anti-town-factions already know their teammates?

And I never got my last question answered (probably because I accidentally wrote doctor instead of cop)
Mod, can a cop target someone who's dead?
And
Can a cop target someone who's just been lynched?
Which is a slightly different question.

[Misnomer]

Players can only target living players, unless their role states otherwise. I have no intention of discussing faction arrangements.

[CaptainFinglass]

I'm willing to bet at least a couple of indies are running around, from the opening flavour. I would guess something like 11-3-3-1-1-1 or 11-4-3-1-1, or somewhere thereabouts. SK seems likely, or vig of some sort, plus maybe a third party or two.

[JesseScottOwen]

Thanks for clearing things up for a newbie. So this is a "vanilla" game? (Look at how culture I am, bandying these terms about.)

Btw,
UNVOTE

I'm willing to bet at least a couple of indies are running around, from the opening flavour. I would guess something like 11-3-3-1-1-1 or 11-4-3-1-1, or somewhere thereabouts. SK seems likely, or vig of some sort, plus maybe a third party or two.

So, I get that the 11 is town, but after that, you lost me. What exactly do each of the other three numbers represent?

[t1mm01994]

Nope, this is not a vanilla game. A vanilla game is a game in which no player has any special power, everyone has only an alignment. Vanilla games are usually very small, as huge vanilla games are really hard, and imo quite boring to play. No one gets to know anything and in the end statistics is more of a decider than anything else. 11 is town, 4 and 3 are 2 scum factions of sorts, and the ones are solo aligneds, such as a Serial Killer (last man standing is win), jester (get lynched is win), Survivor (live at the end is win), or whatever role Nommer felt like.

[tastelikecoke]

(Honestly, I'm having trouble telling who thinks there's a mafia faction. Just tell me if I misread a post).

Indeed, I'm just used to thinking mafia=scum=anti-town.

So, onto rolespec.
I don't think this is a vanilla game, not with this size. And I'm Misnomer have something sinister about "non-standard roles". I expect Misnomer would put some wacky roles like flying pumpkins with lasers just because the game is big and, considering that indie can win by themselves, a lot of independents can fit in the game without interfering too much with the win conditions.

Also, did anyone miss the part I said having an SK would contradict the setup roles? >_>

[Angua]

unvote

A werewolf would want to diffuse the suspicion among many people

What does this even mean? Also, how would a werewolf know wether a mafia faction exists or not.

I meant that werewolf would want town to hunt for mafia instead of werewolf, regardless of whether the faction exists.

How on Earth does this even make sense? Scum-hunting is scum-hunting - town will have a hard time distinguishing between two scum teams, and one scum team - especially on D1. Saying there might be a mafia faction doesn't divert attention from the werewolves as town already knows there are definitely werewolves!

As for the SK thing - it might be possible that the SK is town-aligned (a compulsive vig or something). I think we are going to have to try and work out whether or not we have two vs one scum faction, and other killing roles from the opening flavour tomorrow.

[t1mm01994]

How would it contradict the rules? SK fits perfectly as a 1-man anti-town faction.

[tastelikecoke]

... I didn't see that SK is more anti-town than 3rd party. My bad.

But still, SK vs. everyone? That would be almost nigh impossible to win... but anyway if that's the case then there's nothing barring the possibility of an SK.

[t1mm01994]

So, we've got Angua strongly, very strongly pointing away from an SK.. Meh, I don't like those kinds of votes.
Angua, do you agree with me now that an SK is fairly well possible, just not as 3rd party?
@ TLC: I assume that Misnomer can think of a couple of ways to make it possible, if that is what he wanted.

[Chickenfish]

Hi everybody,
So I've just started a second job, which means I'm working 13 hour days with not much guaranteed time to be able to access mafia.
Seeing as this is the newest game I'm in (and biggest, so most posts for me to fall behind on), it makes sense for me to bow out of this one.
Mod: could you please find me a replacement?
Apologies for any inconvenience - hope to play with you all soon!

[mpolo]

... I didn't see that SK is more anti-town than 3rd party. My bad.

But still, SK vs. everyone? That would be almost nigh impossible to win... but anyway if that's the case then there's nothing barring the possibility of an SK.

That's usually the SK role in a nutshell. It's sort of a challenge role that you get without having asked for it. They very, very seldom win around here.

[Adam H]

I meant that werewolf would want town to hunt for mafia instead of werewolf, regardless of whether the faction exists.

How on Earth does this even make sense? Scum-hunting is scum-hunting - town will have a hard time distinguishing between two scum teams, and one scum team - especially on D1. Saying there might be a mafia faction doesn't divert attention from the werewolves as town already knows there are definitely werewolves!

Well... hmmm... I guess you're mostly right. I was mindlessly parroting back what I remember reading from games with mafia and cult, which is a different beast altogether.

SK can have powers other than night kill. NK immunity is reasonable. Or something like an additional indie role whose objective is to keep the SK from being killed. Or a very limited recruitment mechanism. There are lots of possibilities. I made a game that was easy enough for SK to win (I mean... yes t1mm, you played a masterful game and won against all odds. *pat on head*).

I'm willing to bet at least a couple of indies are running around, from the opening flavour. I would guess something like 11-3-3-1-1-1 or 11-4-3-1-1, or somewhere thereabouts. SK seems likely, or vig of some sort, plus maybe a third party or two.

So, I get that the 11 is town, but after that, you lost me. What exactly do each of the other three numbers represent?

Just other factions. The names don't really matter.

[t1mm01994]

Hey, at least allow me my arrogance on that game. Yes, setup made it not too hard for me, yes, all persons acted perfectly for me. I'm still proud of it. ..

Ah well, this is not the time to ponder my beautiful, brilliantly skillful victories. Now is the time to viciously hunt down werewolves.

[Snark]

I want to get some more conversations going so here's a player analysis. Mostly neutrals so far since we don't really have that many posts to go on.

Spoiler:

Tim
1. Votes greenlover although it seems like he should've voted matt96 whom he was quoting.
2. Claims bandwagon attacking him. Claims that he's obviously town. Votes tastelikecoke.
3. Explains some mechanics to JesseScottOwen.
4. Asks why SK isn't possible.
5. Doesn't like Angua pointing away from SK. Tells TLC that Misnomer could make an SK possible.
6. Irrelevant post about prior game.
-Neutral, some active lurking

wam
1. 2 line post with Twilight crap and guess that 1 scum faction is more likely than 2.
-Neutral, lurking

Gord
-No posts yet

Dooms
-No posts yet

CaptainFinglass
1. 2 line post with Twilight crap and excuse for spotty posting for a few days.
2. Suggests couple of indies and 11-3-3-1-1-1 or 11-4-3-1-1.
-Neutral, lurking

Outnuendo
1. Suggests that insane doc can be used as makeshift vig. Says it's pointless to speculate about insane roles.
2. Suggests that scum can and will hide behind role spec.
3. Says he's thinking about what to do besides role spec.
4. Asks tastelikecoke why he think's scum outnumber town.
5. Explains why he thinks town outnumber scum.
6. Says he's seen both wws and mafia coexisting.
7. Says most ww games have add'l faction. Asks if believers in mafia & ww really deserve FoS.
8. Has "seen games that use both werewolves and mafia"
9. Defends against Adam H. Concedes that if the mod said it's a standard game, then there's not much to argue about.
10.Defends pointlessness of setup spec.
-Active, slightly scummy/weird for being against role spec (one of the main conversation starters on D1)

Zace
-No posts yet

Angua
1. Votes the mod. FoS's JSO for chocolate comment. Doesn't think we have a mafia faction. Suggests masons w/ vig kill. Tells cops to investigate themselves.
2. Takes back targeting-self strategy based on mod's comment.
3. Irrelevant post about an awesome ww.
4. Defends speculation. Agrees about the insane doc -> vig possiblity.
5. Continues convo with Outnuendo, asks what he'd rather do instead of role spec.
6. Unvotes the mod. Refutes Adam's belief that wws will want people to focus on mafia. Believes is SK is possible, maybe compulsive vig.
-Neutral

Chickenfish
1. Votes JesseScottOwen for attempting to distance self from wolves.
2. Asks for replacement.
-Neutral

ahammel
1. Role spec. Doesn't see justification for 3rd, non-indy, faction, but mentions Masons in the next sentence. Then draws attention away from recruiting factions in the sentence after that.
2. Asks what an insane doctor does.
-Would guess he's a mason based on first post, but I don't know if he'd be that obvious, Slightly scummy/winey

Adam H
1. Thinks there's no mafia and FOS's those who think there is. Guesses 4-5 wws, 11-13 town, 2-5 indies.
2. States that those who believe there's a mafia faction are more likely to be mafia.
3. Backs off DaBigCheez. Says he doesn't really think he's scum.
4. Agrees with Angua and says he was thinking about mafia/cult.
-Slightly aggresive but then backs off, Neutral

JesseScottOwen
1. Suggests smoking out wws with chocolate
2. Suggests that wws are recruiters.
3. "Yay, bandwagon." Becomes third person to vote the mod.
4. Apparent cluelessness about what everyone's been discussing: whether it's wws, wws + mafia, or s/mafia/wws
5. Cluelessness about the word "vanilla" and what a 11-3-3-1-1-1 setup means. Unvotes the mod.
-Clueless, Active lurking, slightly scummy for posting no content.

greenlover
1. Votes matt96 for Twilight comments. Agrees with webby's town v mafia v werewolf idea, and also suggests masons.
-Lurky/Neutral

webby
1. Says flavor suggests nonsane doctor. Suggests town vs. mafia vs. werewolves.
2. Tells greenlover that there's likely more than 1 indy. Gives ahammel link to insane doc.
-Lurky, Kind of weird for saying that the flavor suggests a nonsane doctor.

tastelikecoke
1. Votes Snark for mentioning Twilight. Defends random voting. Tells JSO that wws don't recruit.
2. Sketchy logic on why SK is impossible.
3. Believes there are two anti-town factions.
4. Believes in non-vanilla game w/ non-standard roles. Reminds everyone that he thinks SK is impossible.
5. Admits that SK is possible but thinks they'd have a slim chance.
-Slightly scummy, Possible SK as he's pretty stuck on the SK, perhaps going to try to pass himself off as a vig if he gets watched at night

mpolo
1. Suggests SK and/or vig. Thinks 12-4-4 would require very powerful town powers. Thinks that absence of day chat slightly lowers possibility of masons.
2. Requests for people not to bandwagon the No-Lynch option.
3. Points out that SK's usually don't have that great of a shot at winning.
-Active lurking, Neutral

DaBigCheez
1. Believes in either 2 anti-town factions or lots of independents with cross-purposes. Role spec. Votes the mod.
2. Believes in s/mafia/werewolf and refutes Outnuendo's belief that most werewolf games have add'l faction.
3. Believes in s/mafia/werewolf.
4. Gives reason for s/mafia/werewolf and states that mafia + werewolves is uncommon. Accuses Adam H of wine-spewing. FoS's Adam H. Unvotes the mod.
-Pretty set on there being only werewolves and no mafia. Neutral.

Matt96
1. Votes Snark for mentioning Twilight.
2. Nonsense and more Twilight rant.
3. Defends against greenlover. More Twilight crap.
4. Unvotes Snark
-Active lurking, Neutral

Lataro
-No posts since game has started

And also:
VOTE: ahammel
Because I get the feeling he's a mason, and I'd also like to see some more content.

[Outnuendo]

If you think he's a mason, why would you vote him? Why would you even mention it?

[Snark]

Totally had mason and cult mixed up in my mind. Was thinking mason was anti-town. Won't happen again.

UNVOTE
VOTE: Zace
to choose a lurker at random.

[Misnomer]

A replacement is being arranged for Chickenfish.

Votals:

Snark (1): tastelikecoke
JesseScottOwen (1): Chickenfish
matt96 (1): greenlover
tastelikecoke (1): t1mm01994
Zace (1): Snark


Not Voting (15): matt96, wam, Gord, Dooms, CaptainFinglass, Outnuendo, Zace, ahammel, Adam H, webby, mpolo, Lataro, DaBigCheez, JesseScottOwen, Angua

[t1mm01994]

VERY LATE EDIT, MORE OF A FIX:
It wasn't Angua that strongly pointed away from an SK, it was tlc. I was, in this post, going to point out how nothing really had happened, and how that was not a good thing, but I figure I might as well get something to happen myself.

inb4: But I honestly thought that! I can't check that, and it's till a long, long way to both a deadline and a vote, so my vote's going to stick. First rejecting SK because not fitting in the rules, then because "too hard to get in" is a bit too much for me.

[greenlover]

Ack. So many posts.

Well, anyway, my vote on Matt was more to prevent him from doing...something...again. He hasn't done that, so

Unvote: Matt96

Anyway, I see a lot of stuff to wade through, though most of it seems to be simply trying to figure out the setup of the game. A couple of things did nab my attention, though.

First, lets not vote for Misnomer, please? This has been said before, but if you want a no lynch, then call it what it is and justify it. But flying towards a no-lynch without any justification seems rather pointless and definitely bad for town.

Also, I can agree that there is likely only one primary scum faction - I was building off an assumption that now appears to be invalid. Eh.

Anyway, the only player that's really pinging me at this point is AdamH, which I'm willing to discard because he's always pinging me (I think the correct term is permanent day-time miller? Always comes up scum on scumdar ). I'd like to avoid a lurker lynch if I can help it, but a lurker lynch is better than a no-lynch or a random lynch.

[wam]

Just to point out that I am going to be away fri/sat/sun without internet.

I should have a bigger post tomorrow.

[Misnomer]

fearless is replacing Chickenfish

[Snark]

UNVOTE
VOTE: tastelikecoke
for the reasons expressed in my player analysis.