Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Koa wrote:. The only asymmetry provided in your example is flavour text, or it's not a 50/50 expected outcome depending on interpretatio

Fine. The game is a roll of a d3, which, if it comes up 1, player 1 wins, otherwise a d4 is rolled and if it comes up 1 then player 1 wins, otherwise player 2 wins. This is clearly asymmetric, as player 1 can win at 2 points in the game while player 1 can only win at one point. And every event has asymmetric probabilities. But calculate for yourself, it's balanced.

Starcraft may be a whole series of imbalanced coin flips that come out to a balanced game. It's probably not, but you haven't even begun to prove this.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

33/66
I can present all possibilities if you like.
Spoiler:
d3 = 1 / player 1 wins
d3 = 2, d4 = 1 / player 1 wins
d3 = 2, d4 = 2 / player 2 wins
d3 = 2, d4 = 3 / player 2 wins
d3 = 2, d4 = 4 / player 2 wins
d3 = 3, d4 = 1 / player 1 wins
d3 = 3, d4 = 2 / player 2 wins
d3 = 3, d4 = 3 / player 2 wins
d3 = 3, d4 = 4 / player 2 wins

player 1 wins 3 out of 9.

I don't think it's practical to prove that SC2 is imbalanced. It can be fundamentally proven and extrapolated, but a direct mathematical proof of impossibility in this case is ridiculous.

Koa

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Koa wrote:33/66

? Are you saying that player 1 wins 33 out of 66 games? Oh -- you are trying to say that player 1 wins 1/3 of the time?

You aren't right.
I can present all possibilities if you like.
Spoiler:
d3 = 1 / player 1 wins
d3 = 2, d4 = 1 / player 1 wins
d3 = 2, d4 = 2 / player 2 wins
d3 = 2, d4 = 3 / player 2 wins
d3 = 2, d4 = 4 / player 2 wins
d3 = 3, d4 = 1 / player 1 wins
d3 = 3, d4 = 2 / player 2 wins
d3 = 3, d4 = 3 / player 2 wins
d3 = 3, d4 = 4 / player 2 wins

player 1 wins 3 out of 9.

What is the probability that the first die - a d3 - will land on a 1? (1/3)
What is the probability that the d3 will land on a 2, then the second die (a d4) will land on a 1? (1/3 * 1/4 = 1/12)
What is the probability that the d3 will land on a 3, then the second die (a d4) will land on a 1? (1/3 * 1/4 = 1/12)
Is there any overlap between the above possibilities? (no)

What is the probability that player 1 wins? (1/3 + 1/12 + 1/12 = 4/12+2/12 = 6/12 = 1/2)

When you came up with a different answer than mike-l, did you think "aha, I got mike-l, he is wrong", or did you think "I did something wrong here. Where is my mistake?" Because you came across as an "aha". (And yes, when I figured out you got a different answer, I worked out why you got that different answer, made sure you where not correct, and then made this post. I'm also aware that this kind of question is well within my expertise: there are harder questions, where I'd expect a trick, that I'd be much more reluctant to go "aha" -- and there are harder questions that I'd be fooled into thinking I was competent at, and blather something rather wrong.)
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Yakk
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

I see. I'm more interested in what is right than being right. You don't have to be passive aggressive or subvert my self defenses.

Koa

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Sending out garbage signals gets in the way of finding out what is right. When you claim, with expressed confidence that is false, that X is true -- you hurt the search for truth.

It is good to allow yourself to be wrong, but it is bad to pretend that you are right when you don't have reason to be. In the search for truth, a tentative hypothesis is good -- a groundless claim is bad.

Of course, I could be wrong.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Koa wrote:I don't think it's practical to prove that SC2 is imbalanced. It can be fundamentally proven and extrapolated, but a direct mathematical proof of impossibility in this case is ridiculous.

It COULD be fundamentally proven, but, as we've been saying, we only know that SC2 is an asymmetric deterministic game with hidden information. That group of games can be balanced. So unless you can show something other than 'we have different tools', there's no fundamental proof of imbalance.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

I'd think, in a purely mathematical sense, the chance that it is perfectly balanced is almost infinitesimally small, purely because of the number of variables that would be involved in such a calculation. It could easily be extremely close to perfectly balanced, though, to the extent that the imbalance's effect on relative win rates is meaningless in competition.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Translation/summary of a Brood War article interviewing Team 8's coach (mostly) about SC2 in Proleague.

Spoiler:
-Coaches have been very careful about discussing SC2, but now with Kespa talking to Blizz about SC2 again, this pressure is gone and people can talk about it more freely now.
-Coach Ju saying biggest factors to their poor performance were short preparation time before the season began, being cheesed alot, Bo5 instead of Bo7 making it harder to come back, etc.
-Says even being away for a week shows in performance, and many had been team-less for months before being picked up by team8 + the pressure to perform in order to attract a sponsor weighed heavily on everybody's mind.
-On sea's slump, he said he trusted in sea's experience of leading MBC Game as its ace to recover from his slump by himself, but even though he seemed to know what to do to recover, he didn't put his words into action. Through having a long talk at a public bath, coach saw he still had passion and he has got his act together since then, so Coach Ju has high hopes.
-When asked if he will stick with his 6 starters, he says yes. He says there is a chance that SC2 will be implemented into the schedule next season, in which case it will become a Bo7 once again and his starting lineup might see a change, but otherwise with just BW, the 3 rookies lag far behind the 6 starters, so they won't see much play time.
-His stance on running BW and SC2 in the same league is 'trial and error.' He says somebody will complain regardless of what get's done. He isn't against implementing SC2 in the same league. He is against a complete switch from BW to SC2, but he says SC2 is a necessary stepping stone for e-sports to branch out internationally, so there needs to be some way of transitioning,
-On the question of "will sc2 help team8?" he says no, because other teams have been practicing since the beginning of last season, while team8 really didn't have the capacity to incorporate it into their schedule.
-He says his team is currently in the talks with a few potential sponsors.
-His thoughts on foreign tourneys in SC2: not a big problem, and he thinks it is only natural to enter, and the mingling of foreign and Korean players is a step in the right direction.
-His thoughts on the skill gap between current SC2 pros and BW pros: although the gap is huge at the moment, he isn't worried, as he believes BW pros will catch up quickly.
-How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it.
-Other teams? Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros.
-Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2? Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance.
-Predictions for SKPL finals? Coach Ju: KT has momentum, while SKT got to choose the maps for the first and last game. I think a big factor is Coach Park's (SKT T1's coach) decision to just sacrifice a scrub for Flash or bring one of his aces and make em go head to head and try to beat him. I don't believe the series will be one-sided in either direction.

summary summary:

- BW teams have been practicing SC2 since the beginning of this year

-How good is [Jaedong, best zerg in the world the last 2-3 years, Team 8's best player] in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it.

So BW teams have been preparing for an SC2 Proleague (most likely hybrid BW/SC2 as rumoured) and they have been practising more SC2 than BW, as well as planning to use their best players (there was a chance they would only send out bad players for the SC2 sets).

And finally a credible source.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Sorry to be interrupting with my self-promotional bullshit, but just wanted to let those following my channel know that the first of my videos has made it's way to TempleHub and got over 300 views in the first hour of being live at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC7RtenE ... ature=plcp As always, videos will always be live first at www.youtube.com/VocTerGaming but it's really nice seeing that kind of response.

I return you to your regular scheduled Starcraft.

Anyone watching IPL4? NesTea playing like an absolute boss today!

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Wow. You've really improved leaps and bounds since the first games you casted.

Saw MKP vs Stephano.

MKP has been on fire lately. I remember him back when he was just a guy with exceptional marine control. He's come a long way.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

You, sir, name? wrote:Wow. You've really improved leaps and bounds since the first games you casted.

Saw MKP vs Stephano.

MKP has been on fire lately. I remember him back when he was just a guy with exceptional marine control. He's come a long way.

Thanks dude, also MKP is such a boss now it's unbelievable, and those were not his best games vs Zerg I've seen. Once watched a game (and it's somethign Polt's stolen from him now) where he was so aggressive that he kept a Zerg player on pre-Lair tech for over twenty minutes!

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Ah... remember when it was Zerg that rushed Terran?

No? Me neither. I didn't play SC1 MP. Or watch it. Really, I'm actually quite ignorant of gaming history.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

WarDaft wrote:Ah... remember when it was Zerg that rushed Terran?

No? Me neither. I didn't play SC1 MP. Or watch it. Really, I'm actually quite ignorant of gaming history.

I attribute everything that's wrong with SC2 TvX to the removal of the science vessel. It really is the missing part that would give terran late game armies a fighting chance against the other races' late game options.

Irradiate means protoss deathballs are impossible. If you clump your army up under those colossi, you're so dead it isn't even funny.
EMP on S-vessel means protoss has an easier time dealing with EMP. Because what could possibly be easier to feedback than a huge-ass blimp?
Defense Matrix means T3 units like thors and battlecruisers actually stand a fighting chance against late game zerg armies.

Ravens are a joke by comparison.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

You, sir, name? wrote:
Irradiate means protoss deathballs are impossible.

Thats not true. Colossi, immortals, stalkers, sentries and archons would all not take damage from irradiate. Only templar and zealots would.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

BlackSails wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Irradiate means protoss deathballs are impossible.

Thats not true. Colossi, immortals, stalkers, sentries and archons would all not take damage from irradiate. Only templar and zealots would.

Well, it's the zealots that, aside from colossi, are the main damage dealers. Sentries shoot wet noodles at their enemy and stalkers have a similarly pitiful DPS.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Sentries have nearly the same DPS as a non-stimmed marine!

Sentry DPS: 6
Marine DPS: 7

Sentries take 32 seconds to build at a warpgate.
Marines take 25 seconds to build at a barracks.

If the Protoss player has unlimited gas, an army of sentries is going to beat an equal army of Marines (even with stim!) (~50% more health, 1/2 point of armor, guardian shield)

Stalker DPS matches that of a Marine (unstimmed), but upgrades worse.

(The ball-of-death traditionally uses heavy stalkers to make up for the inability for Collossi to hit air, plus stalkers are bulky and blink can be used to prevent enemies from closing in on your collossi, and the pitiful capability for any protoss unit to shoot up makes stalkers pretty much their best choice.)

Why can't protoss shoot up? Because they are always looking down on everyone.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Yakk wrote:Sentries have nearly the same DPS as a non-stimmed marine!

Sentry DPS: 6
Marine DPS: 7

Sentries take 32 seconds to build at a warpgate.
Marines take 25 seconds to build at a barracks.

If the Protoss player has unlimited gas, an army of sentries is going to beat an equal army of Marines (even with stim!) (~50% more health, 1/2 point of armor, guardian shield)

Stalker DPS matches that of a Marine (unstimmed), but upgrades worse.

(The ball-of-death traditionally uses heavy stalkers to make up for the inability for Collossi to hit air, plus stalkers are bulky and blink can be used to prevent enemies from closing in on your collossi, and the pitiful capability for any protoss unit to shoot up makes stalkers pretty much their best choice.)

Why can't protoss shoot up? Because they are always looking down on everyone.

The comparison is flawed because you get 2 marines for the supply of 1 sentry (or 1 stalker). And those 2 marines are going to be stimmed (because that's what you do once you get medivacs), for a total of 21 DPS (with no upgrades, 31 with full upgrades).

If you pit 1 sentry with guardian shield against two marines with shield and stim, the outcome is a dead sentry and one injured marine (besides the stim injury to the other).

It scales even worse for the sentries. 10 marines vs 5 sentries: 5 dead sentries, 2 dead marines.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

So, your problem with my analysis of sentries, that presumed that gas was free, was that I didn't factor in supply?

(As an aside, the DPS boost ends up being zilch from upgrades, as the other side has improved armor/shields. And you forgot the half point of armor on the sentries.. But this is all icing on the joke.)
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Yakk
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Yakk wrote:So, your problem with my analysis of sentries, that presumed that gas was free, was that I didn't factor in supply?

(As an aside, the DPS boost ends up being zilch from upgrades, as the other side has improved armor/shields. And you forgot the half point of armor on the sentries.. But this is all icing on the joke.)

Well, resources are essentially free in the late game. Supply is the limiting factor.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

You also didn't factor in unit size. Marines can cluster more, so in a battle more of them will be firing.

Resources are NOT free when maxed, otherwise we would see very high tech compositions more often (Battlecruiser-Raven-Viking TvT, Maxed Void Rays PvX, and BroodLord Infestor Only ZvT ZvP being perfect compositions that we almost never see)

Maxed void rays are possibly the strongest army in the game, incredibly supply efficient.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Assuming everyone has level 3 armor, and level 3 attack upgrades:

Void ray stage 2 DPS: 13.3, or 4.433/supply
Void ray HPs: 250, or 83.333/supply
370 HP*DPS/supply

Marine stim DPS: 10.5/supply
Marine stim HPs: 45/supply
473 HP*DPS/supply

Marines > Void Rays

(VRs do get +20% vs Massive, and +Large vs Armored, and are a little bit stronger against splash damage, and as an air unit are immune to many attacks, and as an air unit can clump better if you choose, and can cliff dance, etc.)

Carrier DPS: 4.45/supply
Carrier HPs: 75/supply
Carrier DPS*HPs/supply: 334
2 base armor! (Big problem is 2 minute build time, which means when you lose carriers your army size doesn't recover quickly) which applies to about 2/3 of HP+shields.

BC DPS/supply: 5.93 (ground, 25% less vs Air)
BC HP/supply: 92
BC DPS*HP/supply: 544
3 base armor! And Cannon (and feedback vulnerability)

Colossus DPS/supply: 10.9 (assume only 3 targets hit, which it can pull off on Thors)
Colossus HP/supply: 58
Colossus HP*DPS/supply: 633
1 armor.

Unit strength is actually roughly the sqrt of (HP*DPS), but if we are just comparing no need to take the square root.

Stalker DPS/supply: 3.45
Stalker HP/supply: 80
Stalker HP*DPS/supply: 276
1 armor

As noted, abysmal. However, stalkers are more efficient per supply (and definitely per gas) at soaking damage, hence the use of them to soak damage for Collosus. And they can shoot up.

I find it amusing that a pure Colossus army can crush a marine army, supply for supply. I've seen it happen even.
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Yakk
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

You're calculating two meaningless numbers and then multiply them incorrectly. How does that mean anything?

(Hint: x/z * y/z != x*y/z)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

No, rather, I just didn't type "HP/supply" * "DPS/supply".

x/supply is a pretty decent approximation (ignoring AOE) of what a critter would be if you scaled it down to a 1 supply unit. I could do it /100 supply, or /150 supply, or whatever if you'd prefer. I just figured scaling it down to /1 supply makes the number smaller.

The product of your HP and DPS is a useful quantity when comparing two units. Suppose (ignoring AOE) you built a column of each type of unit that fought each other one on one.

If you double the amount of HP a unit has, it would kill twice as many of the enemy as it lost. If you double the DPS of a unit, it would kill twice as many of the enemy as it lost. I call this "linear power".

Now, if you throw two of an identical unit against one of them, with no micro you end up with two living units with half a unit's HP lost. If you had a two-wide column on one side, and a one-wide column on the other, of identical units, you end up with 4 of the one column units dieing for every 1 of the two column units dieing. So doubling numbers (assuming engagement surface area is sufficient) quadruples your linear power.

Linear power isn't all that useful, because you rarely fight units in a line. However, as you can see above, linear power grows quadratically with unit count -- so if we take the square root of linear power, we get a practical measure of power (quadratic power).

Note that when the unit count is low, this approximation fails. A unit with twice as many HP and damage beats two single strength units by killing one, then the other, and ends up with ~25% HP left. But when you have significantly greater than one unit, this effect fades in significance. (Feel free to double check).

...

So what I did was I scaled the unit down to a "1 supply version", then calculated their linear power of the "1 supply version", so I could compare them. I could have taken the square root, but I just wanted to see ordering.

My apologies for not dividing by supply twice.

And yes, like all abstractions, it is imperfect. But it does validate my own experience, that Void Rays, while powerful, simply lose to marine balls. The marine is so strong that in order to beat it, you basically have to exploit area damage dealing, or win on economy, or the like (out range, out economy, out aoe, out maneuver, etc).

There are a handful of T3 units that beat Marines in a strait out supply-for-supply fight. I'm surprised Battlecruisers pulled it off, even before factoring in armor -- but that does explain how annoyed I get when someone actually does tech to BCs in a multiplayer game.

Does that help?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

I watched a couple games played by InControl (?) at PAX. Why do people rapidly highlight and deselect workers early in the game?

Pretty impressive to watch though. Hardly recognizable as the SC I play.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

APM spam. Getting used to doing something many times per second. It also boosts your APM numbers by some metrics.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Yakk
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

My guess is (1) nervous energy, and (2) keeps up the average APM during the low-action early game.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Izawwlgood wrote:I watched a couple games played by InControl (?) at PAX. Why do people rapidly highlight and deselect workers early in the game?
The theory is that if you keep up your APM, you won't have as much trouble in the later game when you need to keep up that number of actions such as during combat, and that it would be more difficult to speed up when you need to.

It's so popular that there was backlash when blizzard removed APM spam from counting in replays, and made it only count real actions.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

This Proleague finals so good.

This is the second ever Brood War series I've watched, after Jangbi vs Fantasy last OSL finals (also amazing).

I hope the hybrid BW/SC2 happens now so we get quality English commentary of BW.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Got to play against iNcontrol at PAX Got my ass handed to me. I'll post the replay later.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Sticking 6 reapers in a fully upgraded bunker turned out to be a ridiculously powerful drop defense.

One of those puppies will take down 15 stimmed marines with combat shields.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Will wrote:Got to play against iNcontrol at PAX Got my ass handed to me. I'll post the replay later.

Thats awesome. Everytime a match was over and they asked who wanted next, I kept thinking, 'don't pick me dont pick me'
How many are the enemy, but where are they? Within, without, never ceases the fight.

Izawwlgood
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Holy shit! I placed in platinum! That was unexpected. I was like mid-high silver for two straight seasons, then I took season 6 off, and somehow I managed to get a lot better since then? Unexpected!
Meaux_Pas: Is it fucking Taint Sunday or something?
liza: Screw y'all, I'm going to the moon

Will
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Got bumped up to gold myself.
I now occasionally update my rarely-updated blog.

I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

You, sir, name?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

-SK Planet Proleague to begin this May, will be able to see BW players try out their SC2 hands.
-SC2 implementation was possible due to blizzard's persuasion and Gretech conceding its exclusive contract.
-No official announcements, but progamers practicing sc2 atm. One affiliated staff said: "Next year, PL is projected to switch over to SC2 completely."
-How the mixed league will be run is still under discussion, but the most plausible theory is switching between each set, with the ace match being BW in all cases.
-It seems Kespa will be forcing the integration by disallowing the player from playing two consecutive matches of the same game [So players like Jaedong Flash Bisu Stork won't be able to crush noobs in BW all day; they will have to play SC2 in half of their matches.]
-All Kespa-run proteams have agreed not to bring in any current SC2 progamers under Gretech for a year.

( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... e=100#1987 )

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..wow
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Koa

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

http://drop.sc/161514

I have no idea what he was thinking.
I now occasionally update my rarely-updated blog.

I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

You, sir, name?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

05:03 [All] BobTheSCV: dafuq?
13:20 [All] powerJ: gg
I need to remember to watch once I get home...

Xeio
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

At points, I was so perplexed about what he was trying to achieve that I almost forgot to play the game.
I now occasionally update my rarely-updated blog.

I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

You, sir, name?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

You, sir, name? wrote:http://drop.sc/161514

I have no idea what he was thinking.

Baneling + Zerglings would have been strong against a marine-based force. You got "lucky" in that you went hellions (blind as far as I can tell), which counters zerglings and banelings quite well. You also got "lucky" in that you spotted the "hidden" expansion.

By the time he transitioned to roaches (to counter your hellions), you'd teched to siege tanks.

He focused on "what happened last" instead of "what will happen next". As an example, he left his main undefended, which you exploited with a hellion push, destroying his economy -- he was used to having map control with banelings and zerglings, but you had map control with your hellions. (It took you too long to use it, by the way).

By building the baneling nest at the "hidden" expansion, your scout and scan wouldn't see it. So the banelings would come out of nowhere. In theory.

Of course, this might be ascribing too much agency.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Yakk
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Yakk wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:http://drop.sc/161514

I have no idea what he was thinking.

Baneling + Zerglings would have been strong against a marine-based force. You got "lucky" in that you went hellions (blind as far as I can tell), which counters zerglings and banelings quite well. You also got "lucky" in that you spotted the "hidden" expansion.

By the time he transitioned to roaches (to counter your hellions), you'd teched to siege tanks.

He focused on "what happened last" instead of "what will happen next". As an example, he left his main undefended, which you exploited with a hellion push, destroying his economy -- he was used to having map control with banelings and zerglings, but you had map control with your hellions. (It took you too long to use it, by the way).

By building the baneling nest at the "hidden" expansion, your scout and scan wouldn't see it. So the banelings would come out of nowhere. In theory.

Of course, this might be ascribing too much agency.

I always go mass hellion into siege tank/thor against zerg. Usually aiming for a 9-minute-ish 10+ blue flame hellion BBQ. But I don't see how it would work against other standard compositions. Hellion expand is like the most standard TvZ opening there is right now, so most players would be able to deal with this type of stuff fairly easily.

And my scouting his ninja expansion wasn't really luck though. I went looking for it the second I saw his inexplicably late pool and gas with no expansion to be found at his natural.

The reason I didn't go for his main earlier was that I was waiting for blue flame and enough tanks to hold my main against roaches without a hellion buffer. If I had gone earlier, I would have just gotten into a base trade I would have a seriously difficult time winning.

But yeah. I guess there are builds it would work against.
I now occasionally update my rarely-updated blog.

I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

You, sir, name?

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