Werewolf - Game Over: The Dark Lord Rises

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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby webby » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:08 am UTC

A few notes:

- I don't think outnuendo is scummy for the role-spec comment, it feels like a new player tell. It also seems like the vague thing that people get lynched for day 1, especially if they're challenged and then go over-defensive.

- I reckon it's likely that if there are two scum teams, they're probably split 3-3 with one or more anti-town independents (4-4 is an outside chance if town is really strong and/or the indies are not anti-town), while if there's 1 team it's likely about 5 scum.

- tastelikecoke is a player I've never really got the hang of analysing (same with greenlover). They're often both quite inactive, don't say much (and occasionally don't seem to have read the thread :P), meaning their alignment can be very difficult to tell.

- Snark is acting exactly as I did in my first few games here - being the most active player, very eager to do analysis posts. I happened to be town in about my first 5 games and didn't get lynched in any of them, then won the first game I was scum when everyone thought I was town. The point is, it's an easy way to look townie, especially when you're new and nobody has seen what you're like as scum yet (it becomes trickier once you're scum once and everyone sees you can do it as scum too and doesn't trust you anymore :P). That's just a meta-note to remind myself and others not to assume that the most active player, who is leading the town, is necessarily townie. Equally though, it's good to keep them alive, because they're more useful than the average townie if they are actually town.

Haven't picked up on anything that's enough to vote yet, but we do still have 5 days left and there are players who haven't posted yet.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby fearless » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:14 am UTC

I'm still busy reading through everyone's posts. I must say I'm not a fan of this "casual" voting - Sure, I get that there's not much to go on on D1 but voting for someone in jest then unvoting them creates a lot of confusion - and it also means the scum can use it to hide themselves.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby tastelikecoke » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:22 pm UTC

I may not be able to post in a couple of days. I usually take a note for posting every day, but sometimes excursions happen too frequently at their own will, as what had happened in my past games.

I should probably lay off my joke vote as well. Just trying to see how Snark would see my prolonged vote :wink: .
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Snark » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:47 pm UTC

@fearless
In case you're confused, I will explain: My first vote for matt96 was in jest. Nothing since then has been.

I apologize for the inconvenience.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Angua » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:36 pm UTC

@Tim - this bit has probably been made clear, but the thing about SKs not fitting with the rules is that they make it sound like independents can win alongside either faction - an SK would contradict that as they generally have to be the last person standing. That's why I was thinking a town-aligned SK.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby mpolo » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:08 pm UTC

I just realized that I am going to be useless as a player here -- somehow, Easter didn't seem so near when I signed up… I will be offline Friday, Saturday, and then Tuesday through Saturday. It would probably be for the best to get a replacement for me, if that is possible.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby ahammel » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:55 pm UTC

Not much fodder for scumhunting yet, but it's a little bit odd that Taste didn't respond at all to Snark's vote. FoS for that.

Nobody's posted really scummy rolespec or strategy yet. If that trend continues, I think it's sensible to lynch somebody who's badly lurking on the grounds that even if they are town they'll probably be less than useful to us.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby t1mm01994 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:44 pm UTC

@Angua, I've already literally answered that.
I wrote:How would it contradict the rules? SK fits perfectly as a 1-man anti-town faction.

Pulled straight from page 2. If only Mafia was a game played with perfect logicians...
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Misnomer » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:09 pm UTC

Zace, Dooms and Gord will be replaced shortly.

Mpolo, if you could remain in the game now (even if your activity is very low) I'd appreciate it as I'm running short on replacements.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Angua » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:55 am UTC

I was just making sure. A one man faction sounds bizarre, but can't be discounted.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby t1mm01994 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:01 am UTC

Umm.. Isn't that the idea of a serial killer? I really, honestly don't get what the problem is here. An independent is by definition a 1-man faction, just he's under anti-town, because, well, his win condition is mutually exclusive with town's. I no understand problemos.
Else we could have lovers.. I hear they're somewhat common in Werewolf games. Practically a 2-man survivor faction.. Ah well. I'd gladly wait for some role reveals, after day 1. I think I'll wait out the lynch..
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Misnomer » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:57 am UTC

Krong is replacing Gord.
Mostlynormal is replacing Dooms.
ForAllOfThis is replacing Zace.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Misnomer » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:07 am UTC

BoomFrog is replacing mpolo
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby wam » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:13 am UTC

Initially i was leaning towards 1 scum faction but it seems almost all of the experienced players are leaning towards 2. Hopefully we should know more after day1.

I was also keen to have a lurker lynch but as the worst lurkers have all just been replaced I will hold off voting until the replacemetns have had a chance to concentrate.

Reading through the posts, no one strikes me as either scummy or townie.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Krong » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:00 pm UTC

Hey all, checking in to say I'm reading through the thread now. I'll have a real post later today.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby CaptainFinglass » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:34 pm UTC

I'm very confused by all the arguing about the possibility of there being a SK or not. Can someone lay it out in one post please and thank you so that I (and anyone else who's confused, if they exist) can understand the problem?
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby mpolo » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:00 pm UTC

Thanks for replacing me, Misnomer!
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Adam H » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:05 pm UTC

NO TALKING IF YOU AREN'T IN THE GAME, MPOLO! :P
CaptainFinglass wrote:I'm very confused by all the arguing about the possibility of there being a SK or not. Can someone lay it out in one post please and thank you so that I (and anyone else who's confused, if they exist) can understand the problem?
OK, well I'm not really sure where the confusion is coming from, but I'll try to lay it out as best I can.

An SK is a role that can kill at night, but has no alliance. I think it almost always acts like a 1-player scum faction (kill off both town and mafia/werewolf, survive with or without other independents), but I suppose it could also function more like a survivor with a NK (survive, game ends when town or mafia/werewolf wins), or just a crazy killer (kill everyone, including independents, be the last one alive).

Tastelikecoke was the one who said that SK is impossible, based on the rules ("Third-party factions do not need to be eliminated by town or anti-town factions, and do not end the game if they win"). If SK is considered a "third-party faction", he would probably be right, although my survivor-with-a-NK role as suggested above would still be possible.

Angua suggested that the SK might even be town-aligned (which would be the same as a vig, which stands for vigilante).

T1mm suggested that the SK is not a "third-party faction", but an "anti-town faction".

And now I think pretty much everyone agrees with T1mm that an SK is possible under the rules. Angua had some trouble with a "faction" being just 1 player, but that's just the rules being concise, IMO. I suppose we can ask.

When the rules use the term "faction", can that refer to a single player?
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Outnuendo » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:19 pm UTC

A SK is, by default, third party. If it's just anti town, then it's more like a mafia hitman, similar to how a town SK is a vig.

There could be a survivor. Hell, there could even be an Indy survivor with a nk.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Adam H » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:29 pm UTC

Outnuendo wrote:A SK is, by default, third party. If it's just anti town, then it's more like a mafia hitman, similar to how a town SK is a vig.
"Third-party" is just terminology, it doesn't mean anything other than the meaning that we give it. Misnomer gave the definitive meaning for it in the rules, and we can all agree that if the normal SK role exists in this game it would not be "third-party".

"Anti-town" is also defined in the rules: "Anti-town factions win when town and all rival anti-town factions are defeated." So "anti-town" means anti-town AND anti-scum (other than your scum faction). So the normal SK role would clearly be an anti-town faction in this game.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Outnuendo » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:32 pm UTC

A Mafia-Aligned SK is not a SK.
A town aligned SK is not a SK.

One of the things about SK is that it is not aligned with town or mafia

A SK can only be Indy.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Adam H » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:59 pm UTC

And since SK is not town-aligned, it could be anti-town.

Indy and third-party are not equivilant terms under the definition of third-party that misnomer provided us.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby t1mm01994 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:08 pm UTC

Oh dear lord of goodness make it stop! Which part of "fit SK in as a 1-man anti-town faction" is so hard to grasp? Hell, we'll name it Rabid Dog. Rabid Dog is from now on defined as a 1-man anti-town faction with a NK as power. "RD" can be used to abbreviate it.
Anyone who wants to use the letters SK? Bad plan, use RD instead. sky is also called RDy from now on because definitions are difficult.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Snark » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:09 pm UTC

Tim just claimed RD. Interesting.... :wink:
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:25 pm UTC

Outnuendo, consider the following:

Da Roolz wrote:- This game has at least one anti-town faction. Anti-town factions win when town and all rival anti-town factions are defeated.

This implies the possibility of the existence of more than one anti-town faction existing, which means "anti-town" is not equivalent to "mafia". So, an anti-town SK that is not aligned with town or mafia isn't any kind of contradiction or anything, it makes perfect sense - especially since a bog-standard serial killer very much does "...win when town and all rival anti-town factions are defeated".

I could see an *argument* for SK as third-party, if their victory condition is defined in such a way that they have to be the last one alive *and* they have to prevent either town or mafia from eliminating each other until that occurs (meaning it's not necessary for mafia or town to kill them off, just the opposing faction), but I believe it's more standard for SK's death to be necessary for a town/mafia win (it's just usually pretty easy after another faction's eliminated).
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Outnuendo » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:47 pm UTC

I'll drop it for now. No point in discussing a SK when it can be almost proven or disproved D2.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Misnomer » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:04 pm UTC

For the sake of convenience, a replacements log has been added to the OP.

Adam H wrote:When the rules use the term "faction", can that refer to a single player?

In theory there's no reason why not.

Votals:

JesseScottOwen (1): fearless
tastelikecoke (2): t1mm01994, snark

Not Voting (17): tastelikecoke, greenlover, matt96, wam, Krong, mostlynormal, CaptainFinglass, Outnuendo, Zace, ahammel, Adam H, webby, BoomFrog, Lataro, DaBigCheez, JesseScottOwen, Angua


11 to lynch. Deadline in just under 4 days.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:16 pm UTC

Couple questions for the mod, just for clarity:

The rules state "Anti-town factions win when town and all rival anti-town factions are defeated." Will the game be declared over when such defeat is inevitable, i.e. if the only remaining players are two anti-town players controlling a kill and one town player with no killing or vote-affecting powers, or must the game be played to total town elimination? Furthermore, will the game be declared over if one single anti-town faction gains a majority of the vote, or if the sum of all players not in that anti-town faction no longer control a majority of the vote?

(This last part is because such a condition is separate from "inevitability", but I've often seen it as a victory condition; the question overall is because I've rarely seen games required to be played to total town elimination for an anti-town win, just to the inevitability of total town elimination, to simplify the last couple days in the event of anti-town victory. The same doesn't apply to town, hence my phrasing of the question with regards to an anti-town win only.)

In the event of a tied vote at the end of the day, who, if anyone, is lynched?

And, just to make absolutely sure, since it's not explicitly stated in the rules:

If day-end is reached and no player has a majority of votes against them, is the player with a plurality of the votes against them lynched?
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Misnomer » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:34 pm UTC

1) When an outcome is inevitable, the game will end.
2) One anti-town faction controlling the vote will not necessarily end the game.
3) A tied vote will result in No Lynch.
4) If the day ends without a majority vote, then the player with the most votes will be lynched.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:38 pm UTC

Thanks for the quick reply, cheers o7

So, no big surprises there, but tied votes resulting in NL is something we're going to have to be careful of going forward - especially since a voterigger of some kind isn't out of the question in a game of this size. The Mayor being dead (per D1 start flavor) removes the most likely candidate for a vote-affecting role, but an ambitious City Council member or somesuch could easily step up to provide vote-screwery.

With nice long days like these, though, we hopefully shouldn't have too much trouble coming to enough of a consensus to get at least a 2-vote differential on the top lynch candidate in the early days, and on later days either any extant voterigger will have expired or battle lines should be more clearly drawn.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Adam H » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:21 pm UTC

I don't think having a NL caused by a voterigger would be that bad. We'd still have useful voting records and we'd find out that there is a voterigger. And we have some power roles to wreak havoc on scum at night. Tomorrow we'd still have ammo for a lynch, which is what NL usually prevents.

And a NL is also not as bad in large games. Either we get 1 NK and end up with 19 players instead of 20, or we get more than one NK and possibly get a scum killed by either a vig or rival anti-town faction.

On the other hand, trying to get a 2-vote differential from the beginning will most likely just lead to a bandwagoned townie lynch, which does not usually give us anything to go on. I would think that consensus lynches are bad.

So slight FoS: DaBigCheez.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:44 pm UTC

Adam H - Good point, getting a NL due to a voterigger forcing a tie early on would actually give us a fair amount of usable information, so the surprise-NL wouldn't be as bad as a "true" tied NL. And, to be clear, I wasn't advocating "don't bother voting unless it's with the bandwagon" - I was more thinking "if the end of the day is 30 minutes away and two people are still deadlocked, I'd prefer one person to switch from voting one to voting the other, as opposed to someone voting a third candidate to come in and vote one of them", which would still give us useful voting records.

(Though on second thought, the "hey, man, I just didn't want there to be a NL, you can't blame me for flipfloppin'" defense, combined with the fact that if we have a deadlock to start with it's probably not because any individual person's having a hard time making up their mind between the two candidates, means it's actually unlikely to happen and not a great idea in the first place. If it comes up we can deal with it then, but in the meantime, never mind the "2-vote differential" thing, it wasn't as well-thought-through as I'd at first believed :P)

I want to disagree with the "consensus lynches are bad" point (as it feels like the ideal situation should be 'we identify an obvious scum through good scumhunting, we lynch that scum without the vote coming close enough that we might miss the lynch'), but thinking about it more, the ideal situation actually is a very close lynch against an ambiguous scum - an absolutely clear-cut scum lynch means nobody will bother defending them, which means less information deducible from the voting records and arguments. It just feels weird that identifying scum easily and having widespread agreement on lynching they butt isn't an unambiguous win for town (I mean, the scum's still dead, but especially if it happens early it doesn't help much for future days), but well, that's mafia/werewolf for ya :P

</ramble>
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Mostlynormal » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:44 pm UTC

Just checking in right now. I've been following this thread but nothing's stood out to me yet because I haven't been paying much attention. Now that I'm in the game I'll try to reread and look over it more carefully.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby Krong » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:55 am UTC

Well... I'd hoped on readthrough to be able to say a bit more right now, but there's not much I can add in the way of rolespec. Misnomer's done a good job of explicitly leaving quite a few possibilities open, and Werewolf flavor is basically generic flavor. Two quick minor things, though:

First, an SK fits into the setup he's given very easily, without having to stretch his meaning at all. An SK is just a scum faction that has one member. Though I would also guess Misnomer wouldn't have made an SK with that little chance of winning, so we could probably expect a super-SK if we have one at all.

Second, werewolf flavor is just a reframing of mafia flavor, yes. However, if you have a role where the flavor hasn't been reframed, it would be a solid reason to believe that we actually do have a mafia faction. If you look at the Mafia v. Werewolf game, for instance, Seers and Cops were separate roles that each only worked on a particular type of scum. Obviously we don't want cops or other power roles roleclaiming, though; this is more for anyone who might have a mafia-themed role to be cognizant of.

...and I just realized on more skimthrough that neither of those points is really new, but that's kinda all I have right now. Maybe I should do a bit of meta-analysis for the people I've played with before... that could be interesting...

/me reads playerlist...

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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby BoomFrog » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:53 am UTC

Hey guys, I'm replacing mpolo. I haven't read anything yet. I'll see if I can read up on the airplane. I'll be able to post something useful around April 8th-9th.

/waves hi at DBC. I missed you, welcome back.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby t1mm01994 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:39 am UTC

@Krong: No, no, an SK as one-man faction is unthinkable. He's an indie and the 2 things are different. The RD is the role you're looking for.

Alas, on a more serious note:
There are 3 SK deniers (tlc, Angua, Innu), of which tlc was the first to back off, hence my vote is quite silly now.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby ForAllOfThis » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:22 am UTC

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Serial_Killer

"A Serial Killer is a player whose goal is to be the last player alive. They are aligned with themselves (meaning they have no allies) and have a factional kill at Night like the Mafia." At no point in the article does it mention that the serial killer is a third party or independent. Basically the whole article describes the SK as a one-scum faction. Case closed. With regards to rolespec I think a Vampire would be a likely Serial Killer as well, hates humans and werewolves so fits the flavour extremely well.

If anyone wants to carry on arguing against this, despite the mod more or less confirming it a few posts back then you can have my vote.

For the record, I think a SK is very likely in a game this size. It's about on equal terms with there being a mafia faction, and I don't think both is out of the question (Werewolf + Mafia + SK). As you introduce more anti-town factions, it actually weakens the remaining ones because they can kill each other.

I think we are looking at at least two kills tonight. Adam suggested we might have one NK when saying a NL wouldn't be that bad? I don't believe your that naive Adam. I've never seen just a single NK in a game of 20 players.

FoS: Adam

There could be a scum traitor in towns ranks (win with scum but do not know who the other scum members are, if targetted by scum with the NK then they get recruited). Seems to fit the no cult but recruiting is possible. Although knowing Misnomers mod style, he does like a little misdirection in his rules to make people believe there are roles that actually don't exist.

Past that two people have pinged me for saying that we shouldn't discuss scum rolespec on D1:

Snark wrote:I think it's just about time to stop fighting over which anti-town factions are present. We'll find out within a day or two which factions are present in the game when we start killing them off. I don't think it's of much importance to us at the moment.


Outnuendo wrote:I'll drop it for now. No point in discussing a SK when it can be almost proven or disproved D2.


Actually there is every point to discussing it. If we believe that we have 3 anti-town factions, 2 anti-town factions or 1 anti-faction, may completely change how we have to use some of our powers. Discussing this is much more useful than discussing if we think a doctor is in the game.

FoS: Outnuendo

On top of that, I dislike that Snark is vote changing so quickly. Votes should be put down when you think a player is scum, there should be adequate reasoning for that vote and if your going to unvote, there must be adequate reasoning to unvote (as in why you now think that Player X isn't scum). This should apply to all votes IMO (although I'm willing to let joke votes from start of day slip). Without that reasoning it suggests to me you don't think the people your voting for are scum, and you can only know that if you are scum yourself.

Major FoS: Snark

Didn't like Webby's "newbie defense post" of these two earlier, just because someone is new to the game has no influence on their likelihood to be scum, hence defending them was either an act to look more townie or you're scum buddies and you're worried that they're giving off too many scumtells so deserves a:

Minor FoS: Webby
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby tastelikecoke » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:10 pm UTC

I'm back for an Easter reply. There won't be much of problem posting later I hope. I see some people picked up on my line on SK/RD, but I already rebutted it. Well, this would also make me sneer. It's very typical of scum to put salt on random ideas, since it brews the town in aggression. Angua and Outnuendo, a FoS for you guys.

ahammel wrote:Nobody's posted really scummy rolespec or strategy yet. If that trend continues, I think it's sensible to lynch somebody who's badly lurking on the grounds that even if they are town they'll probably be less than useful to us.
Or it's because no one's posting that much. Imo Day 2 would leave us nothing if we just lynched a lurker, not to mention boring. Much more fun to see a glorious debate, and it helps us see who takes which side, who's scum or who's the actual lurker.

I was in a hurry so I didn't reply to Snark's vote. I see Snark is quite eager for an analysis. Some people haven't posted yet at that time. Considering that there's only two pages Snark had a lot to say about players.
But wait, talking about one role makes you more likely to be that role? It's really more like WIFOM to follow that reasoning. Not too mention switching back and forth between the players you marked. Any analysis can be called a town move, but there's just not much to add that it seems more like an excuse to help. And if you ended up without a definite decision then the analysis would have failed its purpose. Like webby said though, it pings newb more than scum, like he's too hardheaded to have scummy ulterior motive.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby t1mm01994 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:21 pm UTC

In my case, I wanted to pick a target to start discussion and you were the only one mildly attackable; if you're an RD it would make sense to make everyone believe there's no such thing; it would make people not want to search for it, but for other reasons why someone died (vig, PGO, bomb). Hence why I attacked you, but seeing how Angua and innu joined, unvoting was the most sensible thing to do... I just can't decide where to put my vote now. I like to have a vote out but I can't justify one.
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Re: Werewolf - Day 1: The Hunt Begins

Postby ForAllOfThis » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:26 pm UTC

I'd suggest dropping the Rabid Dog name idea as well, the role is a SK and calling it something else will potentially lead to confusion for new players which is unfair at best.
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