Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Argency » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:27 am UTC

Well, it's not settled for me yet I'm afraid. EDIT: Damn, I got pipped at the post. Should have typed faster. :p
Spoiler:
First of all, Dumbledore didn't actually admit to burning Cissy at all. He admitted to knowing that people thought that was what happened, but he also pointed out that it didn't matter to his cause whether or not he actually HAD burned her, just that the other side thought he had. I can't see Dumbledore killing her like that without at least trying to find the sort of third option solution that Harry is so fond of.
For instance (LONG-SHOT SPECULATIVE THEORY INCOMING)
Spoiler:
we got an interesting explanation of how phoenix travel works in this very chapter, which suggests a whole lot of things. I think it's implied that the Atlanteans invented a method of scanning a person's entire body (which unfortunately involves immolating it) and instantly replicating it in a remote location, i.e., teleportation. I'm not saying he DEFINITELY used Fawkes to spirit Cissy away in such a way that it looked like he had immolated her but I think that if he thought it might work he'd have given it a shot.

Anyway, in the unlikely case that I'm right about how phoenixes work then this theory goes a long way towards explaining what they're for. Imagine that one or two Atlanteans develop a magical machine to scan, store and replicate people, but they keep the method to themselves because of it's obvious evil applications (for instance, infinite cloned slaves). At the same time, though, there are loads of very very GOOD applications you could put this technology to, saving lives and storing the scans of people who are on the verge of death so they can be replicated and healed when a cure has been invented. Solution: make the machine indestructible and imbue it with a sort of Absolute Morality Golem (i.e. - build a phoenix), so that it yearns always to save people and do good. Of course, there are situations in which this won't maximise utility, so you stipulate that the phoenix should always seek out a good, wise human to serve, and that it should trust that person's judgement over it's own in all but a narrow set of contingencies. But then the Atlanteans get unexpectedly wiped out, and people forget how to use phoenixes. So what are we left with? A species of wise, ultra-good, apparently semi-sentient magical "animals" that are unkillable and that can travel by immolation. No one knows how to use them for storage anymore but they still seek out wise wizards to help and await the day when some wise, good, kind person will solve the riddle and use it to shackle death.

The best bit is that it shouldn't even surprise us that you have to immolate a person's body in order to accurately scan it, since... Image!!!

Anyways, I don't think that's likely, but it's fun to speculate wildly.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby notzeb » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:32 am UTC

Argency wrote:Well, it's not settled for me yet I'm afraid. EDIT: Damn, I got pipped at the post. Should have typed faster. :p
Spoiler:
First of all, Dumbledore didn't actually admit to burning Cissy at all. He admitted to knowing that people thought that was what happened, but he also pointed out that it didn't matter to his cause whether or not he actually HAD burned her, just that the other side thought he had. I can't see Dumbledore killing her like that without at least trying to find the sort of third option solution that Harry is so fond of.
Spoiler:
Huh.

I wonder if it could be related to that chicken Dumbledore set on fire?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Argency » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:50 am UTC

Oh hey, that's an intriguing theory!
Spoiler:
I like that it explains why we were shown the whole chicken thing. The trick there was that he transfigured something into a chicken and then burned that inside a containment field, right? That would be a much simpler way of faking the burning, although you might run into problems with the remains turning back into whatever you transfigured in the first place. Then again if you did the phoenix thing I suggested there'd probably be the same problem since phoenix travel doesn't leave any remains at all that we'd seen. So I guess either would work pretty much as well as the other.

The only difference I can see is that with the chicken method you have to sneak into Malfoy Manor to kidnap Cissy in advance and replace her with a transfigured homunculus, which could be tricky. With the phoenix method on the other hand you can just bust in guns blazing and go to town, since it's actually her you'll be burning - it just won't harm her.

Anyone else got a suggestion?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby sociotard » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:24 pm UTC

Lets see, the chapter where Harry first hears about Narcissa is 47.
Spoiler:
No description of a body. Just scortch marks on the walls and a witness to the burning. I suppose Dumbledore could've just imprissioned a mostly innocent woman and kept her so for 10 years. He might've managed to fake her death. Maybe.

Not a huge moral step forward, but something. Maybe enough, when combined with potential lives saved.

And a rescue of Narcissa would make an awesome set of chapters. And it would be enough to make Harry and Draco friends again.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Kolko » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:49 pm UTC

Spoiler:
It's been a while since I've read the books, but wasn't canon!Narcissa good, or at least not as evil as most of the rest of the death eaters? I wouldn't be surprised if Dumbledore conspired with her to fake her death in order to end the war...
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby sociotard » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:12 pm UTC

Canon!Narcissa made Snape take the unbreakable vow to help her son kill Dumbledore, so she was at least a little evil.

Oh, and for reference, here are the conditions of the Harry/Draco pact:
Spoiler:
Harry promises to
  • Take as his enemy the person who killed Narcissa Malfoy, with conditions:
    • Draco can release him from this pact at any time
    • Harry identifies the real killer to the best of his rational ability
    • Narcissa must have been actually burned or otherwise tortured to death, not simply killed
    • Narcissa must not be shown to have 'gotten her hands dirty' with killing/torture/other death eater stuff
    • Whoever killed Narcissa must not have been tricked into doing it
  • Say it was sad that Narcissa died

Draco promises to
  • Fix the problem of Syltherin hating muggleborns
  • Say it was sad that Lily died

Given the information Harry has, he'll have to exhonorate Dumbledore quickly if he doesn't want to take him as an enemy.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby AlexRose » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:16 pm UTC

Chapter is up, but FF.net is being unresponsive. http://hpmor.com/notes/83/

Spoiler:
Not to be Captain Hindsight, but we really should have seen that response coming.



So, some speculation and establishment of the current situation:

Spoiler:
Draco and Harry DO have a secure line of communication through their Patronuses (I wrote a whole big thing speculating about some creative communication methods, only to remember Chapter 47). But will Draco even be cooperative with Harry? He does think Granger tried to murder him, despite Harry's stark avocation of Muggles. Actually, what did Draco perceive about this affair? His perspective is notably absent in the preceding chapters.

I highly, highly doubt Lucius is going to change his mind on this issue. Best case scenario at this point, Draco goes back with three trusted seventh-year Slytherins (if not outright adults) watching him at all times. For Draco to return uninhibited, Lucius needs to either be taken out of the picture or have some cataclysmic incentive to allow Draco's freedom. I see no discreet or safe way of doing that at this point.

Harry, for his part, should probably be investigating the incident. Conclusively finding the hand in play would a. Most likely break Harry's debt to Lucius (not educated in the specifics of that law) b. Somewhat restore Draco's perception of Muggles. Interviewing Draco would be a decent start; it's entirely possible he wasn't even memory-charmed or influenced. His testimony was consistent with what we knew, and he notably did not actually see Hermione cast the hex "...been attacked from behind by Miss Granger with a Stunning Hex (Chapter 79)". If the culprit was going so far as to modify his memory, he'd probably have Draco actually witness the casting. The details of the supposed fight, fake or otherwise, might yield some clues (whether or not a spell was cast here or there, etc.).

Also note that a late-year student, perhaps under someone's influence or Imperius, could have conceivably done the deed (only Obviation was said to be detected. A longer modification might not be detected ala. the Blood-Chilling curse) was The obvious suspects are Quirrell and Lucius. Quirrell for obvious reasons, taking out both of Harry's closest allies and maligning Lucius against Potter in one swift motion (notably, "learned of a person with a motive to harm Mr. Malfoy" doesn't exclude himself). Lucius has a similar motive, though with the intention of "discovering" Draco sometime after Quirrell's wards (which he placed for whatever reason) activated. Dumbledore *might* have pulled a Miyagi about sacrificing pieces, but there are so many other less risky ways of doing that I really doubt it. My vote of confidence goes to Quirrell, Lucius is plausible, and Dumbledore if Mr. Y wants to TWWWWZT it up.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby KrO2 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:27 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Well, I guess ch. 83 turned out as well for Harry as we could reasonably expect. (I was kind of hoping he'd apologize to Dumbledore, though.)
BUT, I have to admit I was completely surprised by the last line. It had not even occurred to me that Lucius might take his son out of a school after a deliberate attempt on his life. And a school where he believes Voldemort to be in attendance, no less. I think this is probably just me missing the obvious, but if many other people failed to see it coming, maybe it's just that Lucius has some (un)common sense in addition to not being an idiot.

Also, I'm really liking Argency's Atlantean pheonix theory. Even though I think it's unlikely to be verified, either the author doesn't explain their origins and we can say this theory is the right answer because it wasn't contradicted, or it gets Jossed and replaced with something that will probably be even better.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby blue_girl » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:08 pm UTC

KrO2 wrote:
Spoiler:
Well, I guess ch. 83 turned out as well for Harry as we could reasonably expect. (I was kind of hoping he'd apologize to Dumbledore, though.)
BUT, I have to admit I was completely surprised by the last line. It had not even occurred to me that Lucius might take his son out of a school after a deliberate attempt on his life. And a school where he believes Voldemort to be in attendance, no less. I think this is probably just me missing the obvious, but if many other people failed to see it coming, maybe it's just that Lucius has some (un)common sense in addition to not being an idiot.


Spoiler:
It wasn't just you. I mean, it makes sense...but I was completely blindsided by Draco being pulled of of Hogwarts.

I really wonder where the story is going to go from here; even if Quirrel's battles continue, there is now one fewer general. Or, if one posits that since Hermione is now oath-bound to Harry, she would be unable to perform to the best of her ability, it would just be Harry left. That leads me to wonder if me generals will be chosen.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:35 pm UTC

KrO2 wrote:
Spoiler:
Well, I guess ch. 83 turned out as well for Harry as we could reasonably expect. (I was kind of hoping he'd apologize to Dumbledore, though.)
BUT, I have to admit I was completely surprised by the last line. It had not even occurred to me that Lucius might take his son out of a school after a deliberate attempt on his life. And a school where he believes Voldemort to be in attendance, no less. I think this is probably just me missing the obvious, but if many other people failed to see it coming, maybe it's just that Lucius has some (un)common sense in addition to not being an idiot.

Also, I'm really liking Argency's Atlantean pheonix theory. Even though I think it's unlikely to be verified, either the author doesn't explain their origins and we can say this theory is the right answer because it wasn't contradicted, or it gets Jossed and replaced with something that will probably be even better.

I really want to disagree with that theory on phoenixes. If the Source of Magic recognizes and obeys the Atlantean genetic marker, the marker itself could be pretty much any protein, RNA sequence, gene, or simply sequence of codons embedded in junk DNA.

For imagination's sake, let's say it's just a codon sequence stuck somewhere heritable on the genome. Who's to say that some idiotic magical-genetic engineer, like the one who designed the thing, hadn't "accidentally" stuck the sequence into a retrovirus and let it loose into the wild, resulting in magical creatures evolving naturally from non-magical creatures?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby AlexRose » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:19 am UTC

Possible point of interest in Chapter 77:

But while his Muggle allies yet made blood sacrifice to sustain him, Grindelwald would not have fallen. He was, during that time, truly invincible. Of that grim device which Grindelwald held, none must know, none must suspect, there must be not a single hint.


I don't remember any in-canon sacrificial blood rituals. Could be forgetting something. Any ideas?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby KrO2 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:22 am UTC

AlexRose wrote:Possible point of interest in Chapter 77:

But while his Muggle allies yet made blood sacrifice to sustain him, Grindelwald would not have fallen. He was, during that time, truly invincible. Of that grim device which Grindelwald held, none must know, none must suspect, there must be not a single hint.


I don't remember any in-canon sacrificial blood rituals. Could be forgetting something. Any ideas?

I think we were supposed to take this to be referring to the Holocaust. WWII has been referred to as "the Muggle side of Grindelwald's war," so given that the Nazis were making large numbers of blood sacrifices to help a Dark wizard, this seems likely. In canon they never brought up the relation between the Muggle and Wizarding wars that happened then, so while this isn't ruled out it isn't confirmed either.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Jorpho » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:23 pm UTC

So, I just finished #81 just now and am desperately trying to avoid spoilers. Silly question, perhaps:
Spoiler:
Is there some reason no one tried to use Priori Incantatem (or however it is spelled) on Hermione's wand to determine if she really did cast the Blood-Cooling charm? It seemed like a rather brazen omission.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby WarDaft » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:28 pm UTC

Spoiler:
They have a confession under veritaserum from a non-occlumens. Also, whoever did it could have certainly just used Hermione's wand.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby AlexRose » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:28 am UTC

New chapter out. Way too much to process at this point, but:

Spoiler:
Quirrell can inflict significant physiological trauma through humming. That is somehow more impressive to me than his devious plotting or his implied magical abilities. I just got such a pleasant Douglas Adams vibe from that whole scene.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby xX17GHDUDE17Xx » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:57 am UTC

Here's my guess:

Spoiler:
Quirrelmort was born as Riddle, and 'created' Voldemort as some all-powerful villain he could defeat. This would make Riddle a beloved hero and leader, and he could rule the wizarding world pretty much as he pleased. As he started the war, however, he realized that people treated hero Riddle like they deserved him, and weren't appreciative of him. Riddle decides that he likes being evil better, so he completely ditches the Riddle persona and becomes full-fledged Voldemort.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Azrael001 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:51 am UTC

Spoiler:
I partially agree, but I think that he deliberately made Voldemort a caricature, one with obvious flaws, so as to have people underestimate him.

I also think that there is a good chance that he brought someone into the school with him who is also keyed to the wards as defense professor, having hidden them inside the circle, after learning how Dumbledore let him in.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Kisama » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:45 am UTC

AlexRose wrote:
Spoiler:
Quirrell can inflict significant psychological trauma through humming. That is somehow more impressive to me than his devious plotting or his implied magical abilities. I just got such a pleasant Douglas Adams vibe from that whole scene.
FTFY. I still agree that it is impressive though!

xX17GHDUDE17Xx wrote:Here's my guess:
Spoiler:
Quirrelmort was born as Riddle, and 'created' Voldemort as some all-powerful villain he could defeat. This would make Riddle a beloved hero and leader, and he could rule the wizarding world pretty much as he pleased. As he started the war, however, he realized that people treated hero Riddle like they deserved him, and weren't appreciative of him. Riddle decides that he likes being evil better, so he completely ditches the Riddle persona and becomes full-fledged Voldemort.

Spoiler:
Problems: Dumbledore knows that Voldemort's given name is Tom Riddle. If Dumbledore knows this, then most likely so does Amelia Bones. Tom Riddle Senior was a muggle, therefore there is no Noble and Most Ancient House of Riddle, and his mother and her family lived in obscurity (in canon at least), not as a prevalent noble family with seat(s) on the Wizengamot etc.
There's the possibility that Quirrel is not who she thinks he is, but plays along to suit his purposes. The spiel he gives Hermione later about once being a hero etc. could just be a nice idea Amelia gave him.

Azrael001 wrote:
Spoiler:
I also think that there is a good chance that he brought someone into the school with him who is also keyed to the wards as defense professor, having hidden them inside the circle, after learning how Dumbledore let him in.
Spoiler:
That would be a very good idea, but would require that he already know how Dumbledore would identify him to Hogwarts - there is nothing to suggest that he did until it happened. Also it would require him to have a trusted ally, whereas he seems to be very much a solitary agent. Unless you are suggesting that perhaps Quirrel is a good guy, and the real antagonist snuck into the circle with him, but it seems pretty clear at this point that Quirrel is the bad guy, and most likely an avatar or incarnation of Voldemort.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby zombie_monkey » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:51 am UTC

xX17GHDUDE17Xx wrote:Here's my guess:

Spoiler:
Quirrelmort was born as Riddle, and 'created' Voldemort as some all-powerful villain he could defeat. This would make Riddle a beloved hero and leader, and he could rule the wizarding world pretty much as he pleased. As he started the war, however, he realized that people treated hero Riddle like they deserved him, and weren't appreciative of him. Riddle decides that he likes being evil better, so he completely ditches the Riddle persona and becomes full-fledged Voldemort.


Spoiler:
Dumbledore knows (or thinks he knows) Tom Riddle is Voldemort, as do Snape (seemingly) and McGonagal. The three times his name is mentioned so far is in private conversations between them, where he is clearly identified as Voldemort. The person who Bones believes is posing as Quirrel is born in 1927, while in cannon Tom Riddle is born on New Year's Eve in 1926. We know from the Author's Notes that Quirrel is in some way ultimately Voldemort.
hypotheses:
1. Bones does not know Riddle is Voldemort. But she does know that he has returned. What would that mean? Seems unlikely
2. The person she thinks is posing as Quirrel is not Riddle. She thinks he is someone else from his year in Hogwarts, who is the last of a most ancient noble house.) Maybe she couldn't believe Dumbledore would make such a mistake? Seems unlikely to me.) And he tells her explicitly he has not told Dumbledore who he is, just that's he's someone willing to work as defence professor, and she will no doubt check that with Dumbledore, so it's ture. Does Dubmledore have the same suspicions as her as to the identity of Quirrel?
3. Riddle is not Voldemort and was born a few days later in this fic. Dumbledore, McGonagal and Snape believe wrongly that Riddle is Voldemort (or Snape knows but does not let it on in conversation with them). That would be pretty complicated. I don't see how it would work if most everyone else thinks he's a hero, or why he would want to make them think that.

EDIT: Alastor Moody also knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort.


Hypothesis 2. sems most likely to me.
EDIT: Kisama mostly beat me to it.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:41 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Um, are we reading the same chapter (#84)? The Auror thinks Quirrel is (MoR) Siruis Black. Who, instead of being framed by Voldy, quit being a hero.

And I'd guess that Dumbledore trusted him, without knowing who he is, because the Phoenix did. And the Phoenix possibly knew Black back when he was a hero, and doesn't turn away from ex-heroes? (A security flaw in Phoenix based "detect evil" systems)
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby WarDaft » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:17 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Er, Sirius Black's whereabouts are known in MoR. Specifically, Azkaban.

Granted if he was Quirrel, then obviously he could probably fake his capture, but then anyone who ends up being Quirrel could fake most to all of their past quite handily. Remember, it didn't take him long at all to figure out how the Weasley twins swindled Rita so thoroughly, re-writing a fair chunk of history is not out of the question for this particular wizard.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Adam H » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:29 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I think it's pretty likely that Riddle/Voldemort/Quirrel are all characters created by Mysterious-Most-Ancient-House-Man. And if there's only 8 Most Ancient Houses, how can we not figure out who Bones thinks Quirrel is? Potter, Malfoy, Longbottom, Greengrass, Black... drawing blanks here...

My first thought was that Bones is thinking he's Barty Crouch. But I don't think Crouch is a noble/ancient house.

Yakk wrote:Um, are we reading the same chapter (#84)? The Auror thinks Quirrel is (MoR) Siruis Black. Who, instead of being framed by Voldy, quit being a hero.
Black has been mentioned many times to be thought of as a dangerous criminal currently in Azkaban. Bones would not have let Quirrel go.

zombie_monkey wrote:We know from the Author's Notes that Quirrel is in some way ultimately Voldemort.
Damn, I did not know this. :?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:35 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Blast. Because the story told about Quirrel matches Sirius' pretty closely. With the mention of "even the house elves".

Black supposedly being in Azkaban doesn't line up with the rest of the Auror description. Oh well. It was a pretty theory. :)
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby semicharmed » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:57 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:
Spoiler:
Um, are we reading the same chapter (#84)? The Auror thinks Quirrel is (MoR) Siruis Black. Who, instead of being framed by Voldy, quit being a hero.

And I'd guess that Dumbledore trusted him, without knowing who he is, because the Phoenix did. And the Phoenix possibly knew Black back when he was a hero, and doesn't turn away from ex-heroes? (A security flaw in Phoenix based "detect evil" systems)


Okay, that's what I thought initially from the chapter. Also, ninja'd, but my logic/ctrl+f skills below:
Spoiler:
Actually, I thought it was maybe Black's brother.


But... then timeline threw me. And re-reading the bit with Auror Bones, other things didn't add up.
Spoiler:
In canon, Black was at Hogwarts at the same time as Snape and the Potters while Riddle was there way before that; he was there while Dumbledore was a professor. And in chapter 29, the canon story of Sirius is debunked by a book called 'Skeptical Wizard', but it's also confirmed that Black was at school with the Potters and Pettigrew. So I think that blows up the Quirrell-is-Black theory. Also, the story Bones told doesn't fit with canonBlack - he was the black sheep of a family whose motto was something along the lines of 'forever pure', his grandmother magic'd his name off the family tapestry for befriending the Potters, and the Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix LeStrange were both Blacks.

Are there any characters so far in MoR who've been identified as Slytherins and contemporary with Riddle?


Also, so far, there's been different 4 'most ancient house's mentioned in MoR - confirmed, including Black. And two more maybes, which leaves 4 unaccounted for, 3 with acknowledged living members, 1 with everyone presumed dead.
Spoiler:
Greengrass: 67, 71, 74, 78 Daphne Greengrass is at Hogwarts
Malfoy: 16, 17, 19, 34, 67, 74, 78 80, Draco Malfoy is at Hogwarts
Longbottom: 67, 27
Black: 7 - Draco says Harry can't be Mr Black, as the most Noble House of Black would probably object. Also, Bellatrix Black is alive/broken out of Azkeban and Sirius Black is said to be in Azkeban.

A 'Lord Jugson' is mentioned in 78, and it's mentioned that Madame Longbottom isn't addressed as 'Lady' but will wield the power of the Most Ancient House of Longbottom until Neville reaches the age of majority. Which seems to implie 'Jugson' is also a Most Ancient House.

Also, in 81, Harry calls in the debt House Malfoy has to House Potter; unless there's Most Ancient Houses and other Houses, that would also make Potter a Most Ancient House.


Edit: fixed spacing/spoiler tags.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby HungryHobo » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:15 pm UTC

Might be Jimbo Blishwick: it's the only house I can find in the cannon wikis with only a single named male member without any identified living members.



Spoiler:
I just reread the graveyard chapter because I thought moody got his own internal dialog.. but he didn't. he only got descriptive stuff and his own spoken words.

he would be the prime candidate for quirrel while in a paranoid disguise in order to mislead his enemies (who he believes are everywhere).

A hero of the first war who had to fight many death eaters himself with little support, the sort of person who's family would have been targeted, insanely powerful, only named member of the moody family, pure blood, close to old enough, has the deep respect of the head of magical law enforcement, always knows where people are etc.

I could even imagine him giving such a speech and turning himself into an expert on dark magic while hiding it in his occasional appearances as moody.

A darker moody who has become disillusioned.

What person as paranoid as moody wouldn't hide himself as someone else?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:25 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Wasn't Moody present with Quirrell when it had been decided that Draco had to throw Harry off the roof of Hogwarts?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Adam H » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:20 pm UTC

After some light research, I've come to the weak conclusion that Houses can be plain, Noble, or Noble and Most Ancient. Potter is definitely a Noble house, but probably not Most Ancient. In chapter 75, Astorga says "Potter has offered great insult to our Houses" to a bunch of other slytherins (Jugson, Flint, Lee, Belka, and Bole), so there can be Houses that aren't Most Ancient. It's possible that 'Houses' refers to slytherin, though, because Snape later says they dishonered their House (singular). Dunno.

We definitely have Black, Longbottom, Greengrass, and Malfoy. Others could be Potter, Nott, Gaunt, Selwyn, Prewett, Moody... ?

Spoiler:
Gaunt (Riddle's mother's family) is actually a pretty decent possibility for Quirrel. Following canon plotline it surely would have been a Most Ancient House until it went extinct. But in the MoR universe, it could have been a flourishing house.

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:Wasn't Moody present with Quirrell when it had been decided that Draco had to throw Harry off the roof of Hogwarts?
It was Lupin, not Moody, who was with Quirrel when Draco dropped Harry off the roof. I think it's pretty unlikely that Quirrel is Moody though.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby aldonius » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:28 am UTC

Saw in the FF.net reviews:
Spoiler:
New theory - Professor Quirrell is really Black Hat Guy

(I couldn't resist). Also, added 'Black' for accuracy.

Also:
Spoiler:
semicharmed wrote:Are there any characters so far in MoR who've been identified as Slytherins and contemporary with Riddle?


If this is accurate, there aren't any Slytherins in canon that are known to be Hogwarts-contemporary with Riddle.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby HungryHobo » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:13 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
Spoiler:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:Wasn't Moody present with Quirrell when it had been decided that Draco had to throw Harry off the roof of Hogwarts?
It was Lupin, not Moody, who was with Quirrel when Draco dropped Harry off the roof. I think it's pretty unlikely that Quirrel is Moody though.

Spoiler:
I agree though it did occur to me that if moody was as clueless about dark magic as he appears to be and made as little effort to learn about dark rituals as he appears to (if you believe what he says) then he would be acting like an idiot considering his whole job is to hunt the people who would be using those rituals. He's supposed to be one of the best dark wizard hunters in the country, you don't become that by being stupid.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Adam H » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:10 pm UTC

aldonius wrote:there aren't any Slytherins in canon that are known to be Hogwarts-contemporary with Riddle.
In canon Quirrel was a Ravenclaw, so the house is not a big deal, IMO.

Crouch Sr. and Moody could be Voldy-contemporaries. So could all of the fathers and uncles of the Sirius/Lupin/Snape generation. Or any of the powerful politicians from canon, like Cornelius Fudge, Rufus Scrimgeour... hell why not Millicent Bagnold? An old prude like dumbledore would never suspect it!

But anyways,
Spoiler:
Quirriddlehatmort is older Harry travelled back in time to stop the dark lord Dumbledore. Duh. :D
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby jareds » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:48 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:In canon Quirrel was a Ravenclaw, so the house is not a big deal, IMO.

Spoiler:
In MOR, the real Quirrell is also a Ravenclaw:
Chapter 79 wrote:After some further leafing through parchments, carried out in silence, the Auror spoke again. "Born the 26th of September, 1955, to Quondia Quirrell, of an acknowledged tryst with Lirinus Lumblung..." intoned the Auror. "Sorted into Ravenclaw... O.W.L.S. quite good... N.E.W.T.S. in Charms, Transfiguration... an Outstanding in Muggle Studies, impressive... Ancient Runes, and ah yes, Defense. An Outstanding in that as well. Went on to become quite the tourist, visiting all sorts of places. Portkey visas for Transylvania, the Forbidden Empire, the City of Endless Night... my my, Texas." The man looked up from the portfolio, eyes narrowed. "What were you doing there, Mr. Quirrell?"

The character we know as MOR!Quirrell is someone, presumably Riddle, doing a good job of pretending to be a particular Slytherin who is doing a very superficial job of pretending to be Quirrell. He presumably usurped the Slytherin's identity when he was Voldemort so that he could play both sides, which makes it easy to assume the identity now. The identity of the Slytherin he is pretending to be and the identity of the body he is using are not known, at least to me.

Of course, Harry and Hermione aren't in their canonical House, so your general point that the House might not matter still stands.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Joeldi » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:59 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Quirriddlemort is older Harry travelled back in time to stop the dark lord Hat and Cloak . Duh. :D

I legitimately had this theory. If we can find a reason for freeing Bellatrix (in particular) from Azkaban, then Quirrel might only be pretending to be evil. As far as I remember, anyway.

I'd be disappointed if that was the case though. I'm honestly kind of sick of time-travel stories. Though if Quirrel was a good guy there to take down whoever Hat and Cloak is, I'd be happy.

Adam H wrote:Black, Longbottom, Greengrass, and Malfoy.

Isn't Weasley a N&MAH too?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Jorpho » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:37 pm UTC

I feel kind of saddened by this most recent update. I'd half-expected that at the story's conclusion that Quirrel's exact nature would be left largely vague and unexplained. But suddenly he's no longer a largely-unknown quantity, but apparently someone with a defined history and easily-justified motivations, all quietly dumped into the narrative with little buildup.

Maybe I'm just sad because this feels like a big flag signalling the End of this glorious epic.

By the way, have these appeals for help been appearing alongside the updates all this time? I never saw them before when I was using the PDF instead of the ePub. Of course the people responsible are well within their rights to include such things, and if they can actually serve to boost the cause of Reason, more power to them. It just kind of feels like they're saying, "Hey kids! Wanna be cool like Harry Potter? (YEEEAAAH!) Sign up for Camp Baysian today!"
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Vaniver » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:21 am UTC

I've been rather disappointed with how EY has been handling hints recently, particularly the background details Bones gives. For some reason, he didn't think to check which canon characters were born in 1926- and so it went from a "Bones thinks Quirrell is Riddle? That's really weird, wasn't Voldemort obviously Riddle?" to a "okay, Bones can't think he's Riddle because he's born in 1927- but there aren't any canon characters born in 1927. Guess he's a OC." (If he's an OC, why not have Bones say the name she's thinking of so it's obvious to the reader? It'll also make discussion of that much easier.)

(That may just be my disappointment with how badly Harry is botching everything spilling over into the rest of the story.)
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby AlexRose » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:51 am UTC

Or, you know, Voldemort killed the dude (either in 1945 or 1973) and used him as a rainy day identity.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby HungryHobo » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:47 am UTC

How about this: from canon it's clear that the fragment in a horcrux can become a seperate entity, the voldy from the diary was gradually becoming a full entity by sucking the life out of a young child.

If you're going to create horcruxes why not "acivate" a few while you're still alive or embed some into other people so that you can have some cover identities?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby semicharmed » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:58 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:I've been rather disappointed with how EY has been handling hints recently, particularly the background details Bones gives. For some reason, he didn't think to check which canon characters were born in 1926- and so it went from a "Bones thinks Quirrell is Riddle? That's really weird, wasn't Voldemort obviously Riddle?" to a "okay, Bones can't think he's Riddle because he's born in 1927- but there aren't any canon characters born in 1927. Guess he's a OC." (If he's an OC, why not have Bones say the name she's thinking of so it's obvious to the reader? It'll also make discussion of that much easier.)

(That may just be my disappointment with how badly Harry is botching everything spilling over into the rest of the story.)


Yeah, it seemed like a lot of specific information dumped on us at once: birthdate, house, approximate life story. Quirrell didn't confirm or deny being the character; though but searching the PDF for mentions of those specific dates, Albania, etc. brings up nothing. Also, EY, as far as I remember, never read the books. So maybe it's possible he meant for the description to point to someone in-canon, and just wildly missed the mark? Except the details are all wrong for someone in-canon, even beyond the dates. And the sudden mention of someone OC who was such a great asset to the anti-Voldemort forces seems really incongruous with the rest of the fic.

On the Noble House thing, In chapter 17 (pg 250 of the PDF), Draco says:
“I won’t question the word of the
Noble House of Potter, then, no matter how strange that all was. And
the Noble and Most Ancient House of Malfoy keeps its word as well."
so it would seem that House can be Noble or Noble and Most Ancient; there also seems to be a LOT more emphasis in HPMoR in Noble & Most Ancient than there was in-canon.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby WarDaft » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:16 pm UTC

Joeldi wrote:
Adam H wrote:Quirriddlemort is older Harry travelled back in time to stop the dark lord Hat and Cloak . Duh. :D

I legitimately had this theory. If we can find a reason for freeing Bellatrix (in particular) from Azkaban, then Quirrel might only be pretending to be evil. As far as I remember, anyway.


Retrieving her before the Dark Lord can rise and do as such himself? Note that this only requires that Quirrel not be Voldemort, which Quirrel being an older Harry already assumes.

If it is a really long time traveled Harry, then Harry does it because he got the idea of doing it from himself going back in time, and then doing it at the earliest possible opportunity his younger self could manage. You know, just like with the time turner.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby sociotard » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:28 pm UTC

My theory:
Spoiler:
Quirrel was a genuine hero. He did ride off gallantly to attack the Dark Lord on his own. Voldemort horcruxed him. Gaining a piece of Voldemorts consciousness made Querill a little darker and more selfish and go do something more fun.

So, Harry and Querill are both aspects of Voldemort
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby semicharmed » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:55 am UTC

So, most of the author's notes are achived here, and in Methods Note #20, which was later replaced because spoiler!, EY confirms that:
Spoiler:
Quirell is Voldemort.

Which makes the oddly specific background Bones suggested for Quirrell more-or-less-irrelevant. Also makes it even stranger, now, though.
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