xkcd

by **Angua** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:17 pm UTC

I don't like the feeling of stubble so I don't shave my legs - the rate at which my hair grows means I'd have to do it every day, and I really can't be bothered. I shave my underarms, but mainly because I sweat so much anyway.

However, I'm not brave enough to show my legs in public. I never really liked skirts anyway, but I generally try to use hair removing cream before I go to the beach (though I don't do anything else for ages, so someone I manage to get through it). I wish I was stronger. I'm glad my boyfriend doesn't care though.

The girls I was with on my trip to South America (I hated having to spend 2 months with them, even though we went to some really cool places - we were thrown together by a charity thing) were really derogatory about hairy people. I generally kept quiet, and they only asked once if people in the Caribbean shave their legs (it's less uncommon for people to not), as opposed to directly asking me about it, but I could tell they really disapproved. Not to mention the girl I really didn't get on with once came out of the bathroom screaming (I am not exaggerating, our first thought was that she'd seen a spider or something) because 'there was a pube on the toilet seat' and I had to go an wipe it off. One of the most embarrassing moments of my life.

by **semicharmed** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:48 pm UTC

I haven't shaved my pits or arms in a long time. I haven't shaved my armpits since college, so at least 3 years and probably closed to 5.

And sometimes I'll shave my legs if I'm going out somewhere fancy and don't want to both with tights; I have pretty dry skin and I find shaving+good lotion keeps me from looking like a lizard. For a day or two, at least. I also have really light/fine body hair - even my head hair is fine, although it's super-curly and so looks like there's a lot more of it than there really is - and so you can't tell I'm hairy until your eyes are a few inches from my legs/armpits.

None of the guys I've dated have cared - at all - and a guy probably wouldn't last long if he was disgusted.

by **meridian** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:54 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Not to mention the girl I really didn't get on with once came out of the bathroom screaming (I am not exaggerating, our first thought was that she'd seen a spider or something) because 'there was a pube on the toilet seat' and I had to go an wipe it off. One of the most embarrassing moments of my life.

Wow. I... um. Wow. I'm so sorry. Not that I have any responsibility in this matter, but I really feel you deserve an apology for some of that ridiculous behavior.

by **sophyturtle** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:56 pm UTC

I was really nervous about my unshaved legs at first, but I think my friends made it easier. A bunch of people from the forum live around me and are my main friend group, and all don't care about leg hair. I live with EsotericWombat, Meaux_Pas, and H.E.L.e.N. and I none of us shave. Living in the city helps too. There are all sorts of freaks around here so who cares about hairy legs (though I check, and even the ladies with big spiky hair and whatever shave). Also, my mom has not shaved anything since before she had kids (my older brother is 31).
I started getting comfortable with it by wearing tall boots and tights and things when I went out. I have not been shaving for like 2 years now and it was just this last year that I feel comfortable in shorts and sneakers and hair legs.
I think there is something about being really okay being different and deciding you don't care if random people find you attractive (I have been in a relationship for 3 years. I cut off my hair and stopped shaving when I knew my partner would stay, so I am not as brave as I pretend).

I am moving to a town of 20,000 (from a city of 75,000+ that borders Boston) and for a moment thought about shaving again. Maybe I will Moom more than the 2 times a year I do it now. Being so different in a way basically everyone not on this forum conforms to is hard, but I am going to try to stick it out.
I love the way the wind feels going through my leg hair while I ride my bike.

by **Angua** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:00 pm UTC

meridian wrote:
Angua wrote:Not to mention the girl I really didn't get on with once came out of the bathroom screaming (I am not exaggerating, our first thought was that she'd seen a spider or something) because 'there was a pube on the toilet seat' and I had to go an wipe it off. One of the most embarrassing moments of my life.

Wow. I... um. Wow. I'm so sorry. Not that I have any responsibility in this matter, but I really feel you deserve an apology for some of that ridiculous behavior.

Thanks - it's nice to know that other people think it was ridiculous too.

sophyturtle wrote:I love the way the wind feels going through my leg hair while I ride my bike.

This is also a reason why I don't like shaving - everything that touches my skin feels so weird!

by **semicharmed** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:21 pm UTC

I totally meant to 'wtf' the pubes thing too, but someone called me in the middle of writing and I forgot.

... I've always treated pubes as one of those things that happens sometimes when using public/semi-public/other people's bathrooms. Grab some tp, wipe it off, pretend like it never happened. And then if you're living with roommates or whatever and pubes are always left in the shower/on the toilet, you say something in a 'oh, hey, there always seems to be hair left in the shower/on the toilet, maybe we can all make sure to wipe things down' and then go back to wiping, then pretending they were never there.

by **Virtual_Aardvark** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:17 am UTC

I don't shave my legs. Maybe it's that I'm blondish but there's no discernible difference in how people relate to me now than when I did shave (I live in minis so I can compare). I am however super meticulous when it comes to my bikini line. I'd never get rid of all of my pubic hair but it's pretty important that my ladybits look how I want. My lover is kindof baffled I think by my total disregard for leghair but obsessive control over hair that only lovers see.

I'm jumping on the "WTF pubes?" bandwagon. I mean seriously.

by **cephalopod9** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:04 am UTC

I shave my legs when I can be bothered, which is not very often. I'm fortunate that the hair is sort of sparse, and blends in with the freckles.
Has anyone else had this experience? (I made an animated gif. are animated gif.s allowed on the forum? I can't remember, I could move it to my blog and add a link if that would be better)

Spoiler:

Plasmic-Turtle wrote:Aw gosh ceph, I've only just read your post as been pretty busy lately. May 2nd seems a hell of a long way away for you?! But yay for it being a women's health centre. Though I guess period-wise it's not too many more. Do your best to be better at speaking up to get your needs met at this appointment - I think speaking up is something many people have difficulty with (myself included), but it's important! And I think Hofstadters suggestions about giving quantitative, specific information (however gruesome!) are good.

It is at least one period away, which is more than I wanted, but not terrible. I was hoping to get in before the sonogram I scheduled for next week, because I could really use a second opinion on whether or not that is likely to be helpful, or if it is just an exercise in hypochondria. I'm pretty sure I don't have the main problems they'll be looking for (fibroids, and ovarian cysts) and I got one a while ago (a year? two years ago? was it before I got my diva cup, because then I said "actually, I can deal with this if I don't have to use tampons), but maybe it would be good to have the two images to compare to each other, and it's like (this might be gross)

Spoiler:

I have no idea if any of that makes any amount of sense.

A month is also enough time for me to start doubting myself and wondering if I even have a for-real problem, or if the doctor was right and I just needed to be more patient and the next period will be just fine. (I don't actually need to be reminded of how I ended my last period 3 days early because the "really good for cramps*" naproxen was not cutting it, I just have had this sort of luck with seeking medical help. have a problem-> problem doesn't go away-> schedule dr's visit-> problem starts getting better ->dr's visit happens).

*according to my mom. it did help, but it messed up my stomach a bit, and the "take it, and then wait a day (8-12 hours) before you can take anything else" type of medicines are not the best for me.

by **Enuja** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:42 pm UTC

Since I'm posting, I have to add my own "WTF, pubes are just hair and look like many people's back or chest hair, most people's underarm hair, and a lot of people's head hair."

I don't shave my legs, my underarms, or the dark hair between my breasts but right now I'm shaving my head about once every 4 weeks. I also don't shave my upper thighs or my pubic hair on the upright part of my torso, but I do shave my labia majora and areas directly adjacent to them. So right now I've got a system where I'm shaving the exact opposite of what women are expected to do (or maybe the exact opposite of what women were expected to shave as of about 10-15 years ago, before getting rid of all of your pubic hair became really popular). It's taken a few years to get comfortable with showing my very hairy lower legs in public (I used to shave my legs only below my knees, but when I was walking in shorts one day and could feel the breeze up higher where I had hair, I decided that the sensory extension my hairs give me is important), but I'm mostly comfortable now. I didn't adopt this opposite-of-expected system all at once or on purpose. Instead, I'm going for what is easiest and most practical. Having no head hair, or very short head hair, gets rid of bed hair, hat hair, and hair too wet to go outside. And shaving it less often (about once a month) means less work on the shaving front. Essentially, I shave it just before it gets long enough to need extra care in the shower and when drying. Shaving leg hair so rarely doesn't do anything but make me stubbly sometimes, and getting rid of leg hair reduces my perception of the world around me, while getting rid of head hair increases my perception of the world around me. If I wasn't such a big fan of gender transgression (and hadn't started to perceive shaved underarms as misshapen-looking), I'd probably shave my underarm hair, because it really captures scent and makes me have to shower more often. But I stopped shaving my underarm hair when I stopped shaving my leg hair, because I did those two things together and as part of the same process.

cephalopod9, your figure is a tiny girl on a huge chair, which suggests one reason I may not have experienced a slide-more-with-shaved-legs effect: even though I'm a small person, I'm not that small, and I can't think of any situation where I try to slide (to keep going or to stop) on my shins! I think I'd hit things wrong and get even more bruises than I usually do.

Edited to add:
Some people on this thread do shave their legs. In fact, it's probably true that most of the women who read and post in this thread shave their legs. And that's OK, too. It's just really awesome to read about so many women who don't shave their legs, to be a in a place were you can have several personal experience posts about not shaving legs. Because in my experience of real life, women do not show their legs unless they are me, or the legs are shaved.

by **semicharmed** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:26 pm UTC

Enuja wrote:If I wasn't such a big fan of gender transgression (and hadn't started to perceive shaved underarms as misshapen-looking), I'd probably shave my underarm hair, because it really captures scent and makes me have to shower more often. But I stopped shaving my underarm hair when I stopped shaving my leg hair, because I did those two things together and as part of the same process.

For the scent thing, a few guys I know swear by gel deodorant, the kind you have to squeeze out of the hard plastic top and then apply. But I also know some guys who prefer to keep their armpits shaved, and with my sparse crop of 'pit hair the gel always felt uncomfortably wet.

by **Enuja** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:41 pm UTC

I don't use deodorant. Instead, I shower and bathe reasonably often. There is a coherent argument to me made for shaving one's armpits or using deodorant, at least in this society that generally dislikes natural body odor. I've been able to get away with doing neither (and I've got boyfriends who say they love my natural scent, so it seems to be working), and I don't think anyone I haven't told has any idea that I don't use deodorant.

by **Ashlah** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:09 pm UTC

Lucky you. I stank when I don't wear deodorant. Plus I just hate the feeling of wet pits, so I always wear anti-perspirant, and hope the chemicals aren't killing me.

I do shave my legs when I'm going to wear something that shows them. It's how I feel most comfortable, but I couldn't care less about what other people choose to do with their own bodies. I often wish I was more comfortable going unshaven in dresses. But at this point in my life, that's just not the case. Unlike most people here so far, I like the feeling of shaved legs. I much prefer it to the feel of my unshaven legs. I feel much more like my legs are feeling things directly with the skin, rather than through the hair. With all that said, I am quite lazy, and wear pants almost all of the time. So I often go weeks (months in the winter) without shaving my legs. Boyfriend is the only one who sees them, and he doesn't care.

by **cephalopod9** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:11 pm UTC

Enuja wrote:cephalopod9, your figure is a tiny girl on a huge chair, which suggests one reason I may not have experienced a slide-more-with-shaved-legs effect: even though I'm a small person, I'm not that small, and I can't think of any situation where I try to slide (to keep going or to stop) on my shins! I think I'd hit things wrong and get even more bruises than I usually do.

I did exaggerate. That's how I feel climbing up on the chairs we have around the dinner table,which are the sort of tall kind, but I've never actually fallen all the way off.

by **Enuja** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:29 pm UTC

No matter how tall something is, I never go shin-first. Even getting out of a pool, I'll go knee first at worst, but the shape of the knee keeps it from sliding. With chairs, I go ass-first, even if I have to climb up a bit to get there, which is true for some stools.

by **lanicita** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:03 am UTC

I actually love the feeling of my legs when they're shaven. I don't shave more than once a month in winter because I'm warmer with the hair, but in summer I shave all the time because I keep cooler and I like the feeling of my shins rubbing when they're smooth. I also shave my armpits, mostly because they hold in odor otherwise and I don't like that. I love that so many people have shared their reasons for shaving or not shaving

by **Kithplana** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:07 am UTC

+1 for the mostly not shaving (legs) list. I'll do it if I'm wearing a dress or something, but most of the time I'm just wearing pants so it doesn't matter. I do like the way they feel shaved, but I don't like the way they feel two days later when the hair starts coming back with a vengeance. (AAARGH THE ITCHING) I'd consider just showing it off if small children weren't likely to mistake me for a gorilla.

Armpits always get shaved, since I don't have itching problems there.

by **natraj** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:15 am UTC

lanicita wrote:I actually love the feeling of my legs when they're shaven. I don't shave more than once a month in winter because I'm warmer with the hair, but in summer I shave all the time because I keep cooler and I like the feeling of my shins rubbing when they're smooth. I also shave my armpits, mostly because they hold in odor otherwise and I don't like that. I love that so many people have shared their reasons for shaving or not shaving

I also love the feel of my legs when they are shaven. I would shave more often, just like I would wear skirts more often, but then I feel like everything I do that is Traditionally Feminine gets somehow marked down as, like, points against me to prove I am Not A Real Man or something and so I shy away sometimes from the things I would like to do because it is hard enough to get people to accept my gender identity without then being a nonconforming man while I am at it.

... sorry this probably does not belong in this thread, um, does it belong in the boy thread? maybe it belongs nowhere. hm.

but +1 on the liking the feel of my legs when they are smooth.

by **Cathy** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:38 am UTC

I absolutely adore the silky smooth legs feeling... I just hate the first week of stubbly itchy misery starting exactly the night after shaving and the second week of ingrown hairs and annoying red bumps.

I've just becoming more confident going out in skirts and dresses with unshaved legs. The biggest thing I noticed about this is how many people *don't* notice that I've not shaved. Underarms are more noticed, but who cares. I justify it in two ways. One: bodily health. I don't need more bacterial infections. Two: Fuck em! It's my body and I like it!

<3 I'm really starting to think that "Fuck 'em I'm happy" is a logically defensible worldview.

by **eaglewings51** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:46 am UTC

I shave my legs and arm pits and nothing else. (I do shape my eyebrows with tweezers and pluck my upper lip though, if that counts). I live in Alaska where it's cold in the winter, plus, I rarely wear shorts even in the summer, so I usually will go weeks without shaving my legs and only shave them if I'm going to go swimming or rock climbing or something where my legs will show. I love the feeling of my fresh shaved legs when I brush my arm against them or even when my bare legs touch. I would shave every other day but I just don't feel like doing it that often so I don't. I also don't like having unshaved pits and shave my pits at least every other day. I tend to sweat a little more then the average girl, I think, (at least more then my mom and sisters) so it helps if I use a gel deodorant and shave frequently.

I trim the edges of my bikini area sometimes. Twice, I tried shaving that whole area but it itches growing back in so I don't do that any more. I don't shave my arms. The hair is pretty fine on my arms but it is dark enough to be noticeable from three feet away or so. I never felt the need to shave my arms. Plus, shaving my legs is so time consuming that I really don't want to add another big shave job to my daily routine.

by **Ashlah** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:49 am UTC

Cathy wrote:<3 I'm really starting to think that "Fuck 'em I'm happy" is a logically defensible worldview.

Absolutely

Reminds me of this quote: “Realize that anyone who tries to put you down about your appearance is assuming that it is your job to please them visually. Once you realize that it isn’t your job to be visually pleasing to anyone, ever, it becomes very hard for anyone to make you feel bad about yourself.”
(source)

by **Amie** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:10 am UTC

I have gone out without shaving my legs exactly twice. It wasn't pleasant with almost everyone I ran into on those days telling me how "ugly" it looks. I also saw some people staring at my legs with an almost pained expression on their faces. Strangely enough, MOST of these people were women. The men didn't even take notice but I've had some male "friends" in the past telling me how no man can ever look at me if I don't lose weight and body hair. This has turned out to be mostly true, with the only men who tell me I look good being my Internet friends who have NEVER seen me IRL.

Does anyone have any ideas on how I can deal with this unpleasant feeling? It doesn't help when I constantly read people's answers to the question "How can I be more female you guys?", because half the time, those answers involve suggestions of shaving off body hair, using make up and other such stereotypically feminine things. I feel very weird when I read stuff like that because not ONE of those things apply to me and that because of this I am not *female*. I am agender but female is how I identify because of my birthsex. I've never looked at "female" as a "gender" but as one classified category of biological sexes. I know it's way different for some people and I have always respected that... just never understood "gender" or what it means to actually "feel like a girl". It's disturbing to see that somehow I have to adhere to certain 'rules', as it were, to truly claim that title and that what I am isn't enough. I'd appreciate links to articles and videos, and anything you might have to offer in terms of advice.

by **MadParrot** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:23 am UTC

I shave my underarms ('cause I stink and like sleevless shirts), but I've never shaved my legs. I seem to remember mum having stubbley legs at one point as a kid (don't think she ever shaved regularly), so shaved legs have been forever associated with spikey/catchey stubble in my mind - so thanks mum

. Actually I've never really understood shaving legs, it has always seemed like an enourmous waste of time - if I look at my legs I don't see hair unless I really peer, certainly nobody's ever asked me about my legs, or been particularly suprised I don't bother shaving. I'm pretty sure I'm not a mutant

Or am I???

Amusing side: I once knocked a glass vial of unknown liquid belonging to a flatmate off the bathroom bench and smashed it everywhere. Picked up the biggest piece and read 'leg hair treatment' or similar and decided it was a hideous chemical burning agent and need to be mopped up with rubber gloves and copious water, after significant cleansing of my precious skin. Meant I got the chance to message the boyfriend to say I was running late due to the 'beauty' industry. (Turns out it was just harmless oil though)

Also, for the equivalent male face-shaving issues - there's a band; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beards_%28Australian_band%29

Amie wrote:...shaving off body hair, using make up and other such stereotypically feminine things. I feel very weird when I read stuff like that because not ONE of those things apply to me and that because of this I am not *female*. .

I don't use makeup, don't shave, don't coo over kids, rarely wear dresses, don't like soapies or 'womens' magazines... But I'm a woman therefore the sterotypes should fit me and if they don't they're wrong (hey duh). And if anyone wants say otherwise I'll sic my grandmother on them.

by **Angua** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:08 am UTC

I'm jealous of all you people who say you can't see the hair. Mine is especially thick at the ends - I look a bit like a chimpanzee! You can definitely see it from across the room.

by **MadParrot** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:01 pm UTC

Angua wrote:I'm jealous of all you people who say you can't see the hair. Mine is especially thick at the ends - I look a bit like a chimpanzee! You can definitely see it from across the room.

On the other hand, chimps are pretty awesome

by **Angua** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:04 pm UTC

It doesn't help that I have a wide enough game between my two big toes that I can pick up a tennis ball.

by **sophyturtle** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:46 pm UTC

My leg hair does this interesting thing. It just stops at the sock line, like wearing socks has scared the hair from going past my ankles. It is a straight line. It always interests me.

My parents raised me to be proud of who I am, and my mother told me at a young age "people will judge you no matter what you do. you might as well do what makes you happy." I still wear sleeveless shirts, since I am actually kinda proud of my arm pit hair. I like to show that off. I am still working on the leg hair.

by **Angua** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:33 pm UTC

That's odd - mine is much thicker at the sockline (I was wondering if all the years of wearing socks had somehow strengthened it.

It's interesting to find out about the variation in leg hair, considering it's something you'd rarely get a chance to find out in most other places irl.

by **semicharmed** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:31 pm UTC

Mine definitely gets sparser around my sock line - I wore the same style of ankle socks from Costco for years - but is pretty fine to begin with.

And I was friends with a lot of soccer players in HS, and especially on the people who had been playing for years and years - which equaled years of high socks+shin guards - their hair got sparser where their socks were.

by **Роберт** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:35 pm UTC

Amie wrote:trangely enough, MOST of these people were women. The men didn't even take notice

Spoiler:

Spoilered bit is not safespace-appropriate, but has been replied to so will not be removed. -Lanicita

That seems INCREDIBLY rude that people would treat you that way. Shaving doesn't seem like it should be that big a deal. I know girls who don't shave and it doesn't really make a difference to me.

(Full disclosure: I'm a hetero cis white male from the US with hairy legs and some chest hair)

My leg hair basically stops at my ankles and I have very little foot hair.

by **Sungura** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:59 pm UTC

I shave because I like being shaven...I love the feeling of smooth skin. My hair around the age of 15 got dark on my legs and was really noticible, I didn't like it. No longer was it that light blonde...it also got stiff. It itches me horribly if I dont keep shaven. Once I learned I could shave pubes I started to do that as well. So glad I did beause goodbye itching and stinking. I also noticed a decrease of rashes during sharkweek after I started shaving and its more comfy for me in the humidity. I dont know why so much of my body hair is thick (not like as in dense, but the hairshafts itself are thick and rough more like a male's beard than the nice delicate blonde stuff I used to have) but it does itch me horribly as it will stick into my clothes and rub and I'll get rashes and raw spots so yeah...I shave for me, definitely for me. And I think I look better so I feel better about myself with it. I'd like to think the later is personal and not society but I'm sure some of that is in there. The health benefits and personal comfort of being shaven is enough for me to keep doing it though. So....there's the flipside of the coin! I dont think anyone should be obligated or have to shave though! It's your own body do what you want!

Spoilered for ot rant of boobies Trigger warning for self-injury. -Lanicita

Spoiler:

by **Angua** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:06 pm UTC

Amy - hugs and hugs.

Spoilered for unsolicited advice

Spoiler:

by **Sungura** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:30 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Amy - hugs and hugs.

Spoilered for unsolicited advice
Spoiler:
Have you moved very far south? I know someone who once got sunburnt in February on a cloudy day in the Caribbean (they were from England) because they weren't used to the amount of UV we get.

You've probably already done this, but if not - try looking up remedies for normal burns as that sounds really severe, sunburnwise, and normal burn remedies might be stronger. You could try heavy duty pain killers. Whatever happens, I hope the pain stops soon.

Spoiler:

by **Angua** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:23 pm UTC

Spoiler:

by **Samik** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:04 am UTC

Well, as one of the hairiest guys you will ever meet*, I feel compelled to weigh in here. Not about anything really particular. Just, hair.
*Or so I am frequently told. Which I never completely understood, because I have no back or shoulder hair at all, and my chest is not quite one of those carpets that you see every now and then. It just tends to be the worst in the most visible places - arms/hands, legs/feet, and head, and that's 95% of what people see, I suppose.

Like Роберт and others, the hair on my legs stops sharply right around the ankle. Neat line all the way around (though it becomes thick again on the top of my foot and my toes). As I wear sandals and no socks something like 9 months a year, I don't think it's sock-related. I don't ever remember having foot hair, aside from on top. I think that's just the way it is.

With regards to female hairiness, well, I'm going to spoiler here. Not for content - just length. It gets mildly ranty, but I don't think I've said anything offensive.

Spoiler:

by **natraj** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:07 am UTC

Samik wrote:
Spoiler:
Human females have parts that men like because we're programmed to like the parts that human females have. And vice versa.

That is painting sexuality with a kind of broad and heteronormative brush.

by **Samik** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:13 am UTC

natraj wrote:That is painting sexuality with a kind of broad and heteronormative brush.

Yes, of course you're right. I was speaking in evolutionary terms, not social/intellectual/developmental/whatever terms. Non-standard* sexuality as a choice/right/whathaveyou = perfectly fine. Non-standard sexuality from an adaptive/passing-on-your-genes perspective = not ideal.

But that wasn't where I meant to be going with this at all. I think extracting that line from the context implies I was saying something different than I was - anyone who only reads that line and your comment on it may get the impression that I was campaigning for that as the "correct" orientation. All I was trying to get at was that I don't understand when hair came to be viewed as not part of the human body. The body is the body is the thing we're programmed to be attracted to. Physical attraction has no meaning outside of that context.

*And before someone yells at me for using the word "standard", I admit I often no longer have the slightest clue what words to use when talking about these things. "Heteronormative" seems to imply social factors that I don't think even factor in when just talking specifically about evolution/adaptation/procreation.

EDIT:
I should probably also point out that I have no problem with anyone who does choose to shave / use makeup / dye their hair / get piercings / tattoos / calcium deposit horns / bifurcated tongues / any other modification you can think of, or anyone who is attracted to those things. Adornment is fine. Crafting an identity for one's self is great.

But these are extras. Accessories. Interesting things to spend one's time and energy on now that we're no longer running from predators all the time. None should be a requirement to be considered desirable.

by **Sungura** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:56 am UTC

Angua wrote:
Spoiler:
There must be some sort of salve available for treating blisters (I can't think of any, but someone else might know of something, or someone at the drug store might be able to help).

Spoiler:

by **doogly** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:21 am UTC

Samik wrote:
natraj wrote:That is painting sexuality with a kind of broad and heteronormative brush.

Yes, of course you're right. I was speaking in evolutionary terms, not social/intellectual/developmental/whatever terms.

Where do you think society, intellect, development, and whatever came from, if not evolution? Liberal wizards?

by **Hofstadter'sLaw** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:52 am UTC

Sungura wrote:
Angua wrote:
Spoiler:
There must be some sort of salve available for treating blisters (I can't think of any, but someone else might know of something, or someone at the drug store might be able to help).

Spoiler:
There is/are for burns and blisters and sunburn, the problem is, all say not to use on open/broken skin, which all mine is. It's pealed so bad I have blood seeping out of hte "cracks" between the skin where it's coming off, so putting anything on it just sends me skyhigh in pain and isn't worth it. Really nothing to be done but to let my body heal itself somehow...hopefully sooner rather than later!

Spoiler:

by **Samik** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:11 am UTC

Spoilered because this is not safespace-appropriate. -Lanicita

Spoiler:

doogly wrote:
Samik wrote:
natraj wrote:That is painting sexuality with a kind of broad and heteronormative brush.

Yes, of course you're right. I was speaking in evolutionary terms, not social/intellectual/developmental/whatever terms.

Where do you think society, intellect, development, and whatever came from, if not evolution? Liberal wizards?

If you want to get into a debate on nature vs nuture, the relationship between adaptivity and ethicality, or anything else along those lines, I'll be happy to do it elsewhere. Really, I'm not skirting that at all.

But the fact remains that the one sentence of mine that natraj, and now you, have focused on, was taken out of context, and had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with those issues.

For the second time: that comment about our parts naturally being appealing to one another was meant only to serve the purpose of setting up the question: "When did some parts become invalid / insufficient?" Human attraction, however modified/developed/diverged its many instances have become (or have always had the capacity to be), has procreative drives at its root. I can not possibly think of a less controversial way to phrase this, nor do I think the concept itself is particularly controversial.

As for your question itself, let me ask you this: Do you believe that reactions to every single possible stimulus / set of stimuli are hard-coded into our DNA? Or is it perhaps more likely that our programming gives us a set of guidelines that allow us to make reasonable efforts at handling the wide variety of challenges we have to face throughout our lives? Is it not remotely possible, to you, that any given behavior might have, as its justification, something other than evolution or liberal wizards?

That is, is it not even conceivable to you that statistically mal-adaptive behaviors could nonetheless express themselves in a happy, healthy, free-will-exercising individual?

(And if your first inclination is to think that suggestion undermines anything I said in my previous two posts, then either you misunderstood the contents of those posts, or I didn't express myself very clearly. At this point, I'm thinking probably the latter.)

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