Minecraft

[Steax]

I'm standing guard while you guys are down.

I'm working on arrow dispensers to knock things out of the water stream now.

Also, we need a battle deck closer to the water pillar. It takes too long to tell who it is right now. Probably use glass entirely to defend against people using bows, too. Then a direct hookup switch to the water-kill button.

[bluejello]

Perhaps a potion droping zone directly above the water flow to ...welcome?... people to the base. it may or may not work so well.

Also it seems that either the server is deading or my internet is too slow currenly... I will not be on again today it seems.

[Bhelliom]

Heading your way with a full inventory after spawning half a world away. So many ruins! This is a harsh land indeed.

[blalobw]

Who is building the boat-busting wooden walkway of annoyance? Is it the same folks who are colonizing the jungle island?


edit: I just tried dropping potions into a water stream. The accuracy will be too low at the point where the bottle's path approaches vertical. It doesn't work unless you hit the miscreant or have a block directly behind the water stream to break the bottle.

Arrow dispensers sound like a promising idea especially once we find a skeleton spawner.

[Steax]

I had an idea to defend against people pillaring up: a sand deployment layer, where we can drop sand down. The idea is to drop sand on people trying to pillar, and either suffocate them or force them to abandon their pillar. It's also a great position to use arrows on them.

[Bhelliom]

Ok, I made it to the co-ords indicated on the Google spreadsheet, but I don't see anything. Is the base above the view distance?

[New User]

That depends on your view distance settings. I can barely see it on Normal settings. When I'm in the base and look down, I can't see land or water.

[tHe_kiiD]

Ok, I made it to the co-ords indicated on the Google spreadsheet, but I don't see anything. Is the base above the view distance?

its right above. are you on-line right now? what is you in game name?

[tHe_kiiD]

another raider attack! they are at the base. do not log in unless you wanna get killed

[New User]

I couldn't defend the base alone. I died, they destoyed the beds. If your bed is in the monster spawner you might be good.

[tHe_kiiD]

I couldn't defend the base alone. I died, they destoyed the beds. If your bed is in the monster spawner you might be good.

I had my respawn set up there and somehow I ended up across the map when they killed me.

[Josephine]

They destroyed the chests, they left the items on the ground to despawn. This is so one-sided. We should find a safer location. There's nothing for us there.

[Bhelliom]

IGN is Gorbash84. Until I see someone at the base I can haunt the Hotel area nearby.

The solution is simple. We need to construct a base out of cast obsidian and make it as griefer-unfriendly as possible. This means only store things in separated, hidden chests, spread your valuable stuff around, and keep your MOST valuable stuff on your person. Complex redstone stuff is annoying to rebuild constantly. Farms, not so much. These guys are assholes, but all we need to do is not reward the raiders.

Maybe build some large solid obsidian cubes around so they burn up time and diamond picks looking inside. Perhaps leave them a nasty message in the middle.

[tHe_kiiD]

IGN is Gorbash84. Until I see someone at the base I can haunt the Hotel area nearby.

be careful, the raiders are headed your way

[Bhelliom]

I'm logged out standing on the beach. On a business trip tonight and tomorrow night, so I won't be on again for a couple of days. Just update the spreadsheet if you folks decide to move the base.

[Kain]

Out of curiosity, on the MA server, is the End available?

[blalobw]

I happened to be nearby during the recent attack and failed to do anything useful before accidentally dying.

I'm back to my mineshaft for some more loner-style exploration.

[bluejello]

Yes, yes it is complete with the ender dragon respawning

[Roosevelt]

From a post in this reddit thread, it appears one of our griefers (thezerosack) is trying to hide in SF. Given this is more or less the same tactics they used on us, someone on the reddit should probably give schneider a heads-up.

[tHe_kiiD]

I already PM'd their leader.

[tHe_kiiD]

So what are we gonna do with the griefer problem? I say we move to a new location. Mr. Roos mentioned he had a few spots in mind. For the mean time I will start hauling the hidden chest to the cave system. they, once again, failed to find them.

[New User]

They are pretty well hidden. I think the only way someone would find, short of cheating, is by accident.

[Magnanimous]

I vote we keep this as a proximity base and move anything of value (but leave one hidden chest with supplies). Who has a good idea for a new base?

Also instead of keeping a valuable enchanting chest out in the open, we can hide it in the three-thick floors (cross-section): (adjust level by mining more blocks, and it goes up to 30.)

[blalobw]

That is a clever way to hide an enchanting table. >B^)


Yeah, I agree we should keep the current base but hide all the valuables elsewhere. Retreating from it is too close to defeat.

How extensive are the caverns below the current base? If they're huge enough why not just move all the living quarters/valuables/workshops down there, with the most important things spread out in small hidden caches?

Navigation could be aided (for us) by encoded (to hinder thieves and griefers) signs.

[tHe_kiiD]

We moved all the the values to a safe location in the caves. I cleaned up the base and removed the lava and the pillars. I will try to go out and gather some resources. In the mean time we need to get a melon and tree farm going.

[Magnanimous]

How extensive are the caverns below the current base? If they're huge enough why not just move all the living quarters/valuables/workshops down there, with the most important things spread out in small hidden caches?

Navigation could be aided (for us) by encoded (to hinder thieves and griefers) signs.

On the other hand, we have a huge empty room at y=12... We could dig out a room at y=6 and have the entrance be an unmarked dirt block somewhere.

[Kain]

That is a clever way to hide an enchanting table. >B^)


Yeah, I agree we should keep the current base but hide all the valuables elsewhere. Retreating from it is too close to defeat.

How extensive are the caverns below the current base? If they're huge enough why not just move all the living quarters/valuables/workshops down there, with the most important things spread out in small hidden caches?

Navigation could be aided (for us) by encoded (to hinder thieves and griefers) signs.

Well, I went down in the caves to find y'all, took a wrong turn I guess, ended up in an abandoned mineshaft that had only had the lowest level cleared, and have about 7 iron blocks on me from mining there... (also have deactivated 2 baby spider spawers, and have a pumpkin farm going. Can we make iron golems, and if so, will they attack people who attack us?

Oooh, and ST's server is back up! Has it been upped to 1.2 yet?

[eculc]

For hiding a secret base of operations, I suggest finding the deepest possible point in the ocean, and then digging a tunnel downwards until the desired depth. that's probably about as close to impossible to find as possible; unless someone is using XRAY mods, I don't believe it'll be found. as well, a base of operations would only need about 5 blocks vertically, total, including the ceiling and floor. if we plan for 8 or 9, we can find nice ways to hide things under the floor, above the ceiling, etc.

And I like the idea about obsidian cubes with nothing inside. for an added bonus, put a chest in with nothing in it, so that even those using XRAY mods will be prompted to dig through them.

also: piston traps. we should use them. having a hallway leading to the base as the only means of entry is nice. even better, make a piston door against the bottom of the ocean, with a way to open it from the inside, much like the watervator but less conspicuous.

Iron golems: AFAIK they don't attack people unless attacked themselves, much like snow golems (otherwise they would attack everyone, or possibly everyone but the creator)

[_infina_]

We moved all the the values to a safe location in the caves. I cleaned up the base and removed the lava and the pillars. I will try to go out and gather some resources. In the mean time we need to get a melon and tree farm going.

They used lava? From what I have read of the rules, it is not okay to just leave it around, especially where others have logged off.

[e^iπ+1=0]

"No lava griefing: You can use lava all you want in your own base. Anywhere else is permitted too, as long as you clean it up (do not place lava where someone logged out). You will receive a warning for this offence. Don't do it twice."

So yeah, if they left lava there, then report them.

[Kain]

Iron golems: AFAIK they don't attack people unless attacked themselves, much like snow golems (otherwise they would attack everyone, or possibly everyone but the creator)

This mod really needs a change to the AI of the golems (snow and iron) so that they could be used as area defense.
If I knew how to mod, I would do the following: first, introduce a passcard/badge item (relatively cheap to make, maybe some iron and paper?). The passcard should be able to store an 8 character code (not sure how to go about this, maybe like enchantments or sign labels).

Second: make it such that you can use a passcard on an iron golem, consuming the passcard and setting the iron golem to recognize people carrying a passcard with the same code as friendlies. (To prevent enemies from reprogramming the iron golems, perhaps to change the code you would first have to use a passcard with the old code, and then one with the new one. As passcards would probably keep their code when dropped, this would of course allow someone to kill a card holder and reprogram the golem, but if a group is on top of things another of their team could change the passcode first).

Third and perhaps most important for people interested in diplomacy: have the iron golems have three settings, a passive state where they only attack players who attack them; a defensive state where they attack players who attack them, and attack any non-friendly players that attack or are attacked by friendly players within a certain range; and an aggressive state where they attack any non-friendly player within range.

As for snow golems, I don't know if they would be worth the hassle, but maybe they could attack whatever a nearby iron golem is attacking?

Oh, about that lava tower... um, that was actually me, sorry. I had placed it to remove some cobble items I had broken trying to clean up the area, and tried to remove the source block before it could spread, but I got some rather annoying lag (this was ten minutes before the reset, at most) and ended up thinking I had the removed the source block when I hadn't. I realized that about three minutes later when I went to swap my lava for some water and realized my bucket was empty. I went back to the tower, got the source block, and started removing the pillar, but I ended up accidentally falling to my death. I went to recover my stuff, and ended up getting logged out when they reset the server (ironically the only thing I lost was my lava bucket). By the time I got back on, the lava tower was gone, so I figured it was no big deal.

Again, sorry about that.

[jestingrabbit]

STs server is back up. This is the build I was keen to finish.



The curvy thing, with the sandstone and netherbrick. You can see a few other images here, or, you know, on the server.

[Kain]

It looks great Jesting! How many furnaces are inside, and on a related note, do we have a tree farm nearby to supply the charcoal?

[Steax]

I really want to see that. Is the server not yet updated?

It looks somewhat disturbingly like a nuclear reactor, though.





.. We should totally build one.

Re: MA: Piston traps are really the only reliable methods of killing stuff. However, this means slimeballs, making the traps likely as precious as the things they're protecting...

[jestingrabbit]

It looks great Jesting! How many furnaces are inside, and on a related note, do we have a tree farm nearby to supply the charcoal?

There's a few furnaces.

I have an underground tree farm. I've got plans for a larger, more public farm, but I might dig an access hatch for the little one in the interim (which might be a while). Its certainly big enough for most purposes, but we probably need a proper one somewhere about. If its large enough, it doesn't really need to be centrally located, it will just grow enough trees whilst you're traveling to/from it.

@steax: its cooling tower shaped, but that's not unique to nuclear reactors, they're also used in other electricity generation plants that use steam.

[Magnanimous]

Re: MA: Piston traps are really the only reliable methods of killing stuff. However, this means slimeballs, making the traps likely as precious as the things they're protecting...

We have a half stack... Digging out that room was a good investment.

EDIT: I added a hidden base under the slime spawning room; check the spreadsheet for coordinates.

[e^iπ+1=0]

Can someone PM me the coords doc? Thanks!

[_infina_]

Can someone PM me the coords doc? Thanks!

me too.

[eculc]

oh, if only pistons could move obsidian.

I like the idea about the golem security system. it seems a bit complicated, though; a good way that I've thought it up is having a GUI where you list (by typing in, in theory) players that are "safe" or "not safe" and having an offensive and defensive mode. in offensive, the golem would attack anything but players marked "safe" and the creator; in defensive, the golem would only attack mobs and players marked "not safe". Ideally, either only the creator of the mob would be able to access this GUI, or possibly anyone on the "safe" list.

I'm not entirely sure this is possible, but considering that we *know* it's possible to code in right-click effects on mobs (from wolves) and that mobs can recognize players in some form or another (wolves attacking players that you're fighting) it might be a good solution.

[Roosevelt]

As a forward, I would like to warn you that it is very early, I am somewhat invested in the subject, and I like to write.

The Anti-Defense Manifesto

Recently, the inevitable happened. A band of raiders found Pandora and, rather than just grab and go, they decided they'd stick around and torment the city. Folks are beginning to consider just cutting their losses and moving. In the meantime, plans going forward are being discussed.

So what are we gonna do with the griefer problem? I say we move to a new location...
...For the mean time I will start hauling the hidden chest to the cave system. they, once again, failed to find them.

While the intention in this statement is good, there's a problem. It suggests, essentially, that we react to the fall of one centralized base by moving to another centralized base. Centralizing, to put it bluntly, simply doesn't work. The set-up of the game does not allow it. Given time (and possibly illicit aid) someone you don't want finding your base is going to find your base; from there, it's frankly not that hard for a dedicated attacker to compromise any physical defenses. What I seek to push towards is a distributed network. A system where the fall of your base (your base will fall, sooner or later) is not a catastrophe that leads to rushed counterattacks and speculative defense proposals, but an annoyance that, similar to dying, is ultimately a trivial loss.

The Problem

Stop me if you've heard this. A group of players are living on a citadel in the sky. Suddenly (and unsurprisingly) they are attacked by a group of raiders. Using their high ground, the defenders are able to repel the raiders. For now, at least. Satisfied with their success, the defenders log off. It is late, and furthermore, Sunday night. Fast forward several hours. When the residents of our hypothetical city log back on, they find their city in ruins. While they were away, another group, unrelated to the first, towered up to the city and went to town.

This story is fairly standard for a hypothetical situation, in that it isn't hypothetical at all. Such is the story Bespin, which loses just about everything that isn't tucked away in a corner or on person every day. As a central hub, Bespin generally is able to leverage its considerable workforce to repair in time for the next attack; however, many smaller bases lack such luxuries and ultimately fold under similar stress.

Illustrated in this example are the two key flaws in base defense: constant vigilance, and the ineffectiveness of static defenses. At first, the defenders were able to outplay the attackers. As Kiid and Jello have themselves demonstrated, active defenders can utilize various forms of dynamic defenses and stockpiled resources to keep an attack at bay. Unfortunately these defenses -be they walls, alarms, or trick sand falls- have time and again proven themselves ineffective without players to leverage them (see: Bespin and the second attack on Pandora). If an adequate guard could be mobilized around the clock, such defenses could prove viable. However, as the professional Minecraft scene has yet to take off, finding and maintaining a group will ultimately rely on maintaining a large and diverse player base - a feat which, beyond bringing its own problems, is not necessarily easy to maintain.

Of course, just criticizing the current system is easy and, frankly, unproductive. What we need is

The Solution

Working off the assumption that is no truly secure base, it can be concluded that the question in constructing a base is not whether it will withstand detection and attack, but rather how long it will take to detect and, once detected, how much stands to be lost once it is razed. Using this as a basis, we can construct two main criteria in base building: detectability, and expendability.

Detectability

The first of these criteria is no doubt familiar to most readers. A lot of work has been put into devising ways to avoid detection, from simply burying your chests to devising minimalist base footprints. However, most of these systems devolve into one basic concept: hiding underground. With an underground base visibility (and in turn the danger of a casual griefer) can be largely reduced. From there, additional steps, such as hiding entrances underwater or in jungles, minimizing base size, and building on uncommonly-mined heights can be taken to further reduce visibility. How exactly to implement such designs is a well-debated topic and, as detectability is merely a portion of this proposal, I will leave such details to the "experts." The important thing to remember, however, is that such defenses will be imperfect; all it takes is one cheater, a chunk error, or even blind luck to destroy the cleverest of concealments.

Expendability

This brings us to our second criteria: expendability. In the current system, when destruction is not a matter of "if," but "when," being able to abandon a base is a valuable ability. Unfortunately, it's also a relatively uncommon one. Many players develop an attachment to a certain base; beyond this, such a base often is their only base. These attachments often lead to increased investments into a base. Increased investments invariable lead to increased losses, not only in the initial attack, but in subsequent efforts to rebuild and fight repeat attacks as well. While the inevitable will not necessarily force players to abandon their projects -Bespin and Schneider Farms are examples of this exception- the costs of repeated destruction and reconstruction can be crippling.

As a contrast to these dearly held bases, the expendable base holds little to get attached to. Valuables are stored off-site, with the base itself maintaining only the necessities- beds, crafting supplies, basic materials (food, stone, etc.), and, depending on the size or purpose, farms. Decorations should be kept simple and cheap- wooden benches or paintings are potential ideas, while ornate designs or rare blocks are to be avoided. All of this leads to a base which, should it come under attack, can be easily abandoned and, should it be deemed safe to return, requires minimal effort to reclaim. The builder should, ideally, always act as if a griefer has already discovered and announced his intentions to destroy the base.

The Network

It is at this point, having built a hard-to-detect, easy-to-abandon base, that we reach the key behind this solution: do it again. That first base has already been condemned by fate; there is little sense in waiting for its sentence to pass before restarting. Of course, this second base is also living on borrowed time, so it may be wise to work on a third as well, and so on. Ultimately, one should end up with a network of interchangeable bases and caches, through which the loss from an attack is lessened.

Implementation

We at xkcd have, to a extend, been practicing this "Distributed Network" already in the form of off-site resource caching. From this point on there are various ways to proceed. The simplest (and perhaps safest) way is, of course, to begin constructing ancillary bases around the map, all the while making sure to maintain both a low profile and a low cost. We could also begin "annexing" the various ruins and abandoned bases that litter the map, or attempt to setup sub-bases or "embassies" in existing towns like Bespin or the Farm. Such maneuvers, while carrying an increased risk of discovery, would also involve little to no labor, greatly decreasing the investment in such a base.

Beyond the base concept, a distributed network carries several other possible applications. Intentionally conspicuous bases could be designed as decoys, to distract potential griefers and prolong the lifetimes of the real bases. On a more practical level, having "homes" located across the map would help both travel and new members of the group, as the distance between one's current location and the nearest safehouse is reduced. Of course, it also comes with the potential for flaws. Such a system would likely spread the group across the map, or in turn revert to a centralized location as members coalesce. In order to maintain this system, metagame, in the form of records (we have), forums (we have), and chat (we don't have), would likely expand from a useful tool to a necessity.

We have not been the first to experiment in distributing our power and, in all likelihood, we will not be the last. But what I suggest here is that we go the next step. That we abandon a system of centralized defense that, like the ruins it leaves, is horribly broken. That we abandon mere speculation and "what-ifs" and try a new approach. Death is cheap, adventure is fun, and Minecraft is at its roots about innovation; fighting yet another a losing battle over a plot of land is, simply, none of the above.

Yours truly,

Summer Glau Theodore Roosevelt