[S] Fallout Mafia - Game Over - Mafia Wins

[BoomFrog]

Alright, I've got a lot of ideas for Fallout Mafia but I don't want to make it too complex unless that's what people want.

The core of the game is vanilla town vs vanilla mafia. Everyone has semi-random materials that can be used to make power items. Players can give others materials during the day phase. Who you give an item to is public but what you give them is private. Deals are not binding and one player has to give an item first in a trade. No one starts with the materials to actually make anything by themselves, so if there is no trading then no one gets any powers.

The extra ideas I have are things like more items with stranger effects, such as flamers, landmines, drugs, and stealthboys. Everyone chooses two skills that give either limited powers or more crafting options. Lastly, everyone has 3hp and can be wounded and healed by items or skills. (If I don't do hit points then weapons have a % based chance to kill that is reduced by armors and other items).

So since mafia players love voting for things, which version should I do? Remember in this case voting for something means you like it. :p Other feedback is welcome of course. I'll make my decision sometime tomorrow then throw the game into sign-ups.

[BoomFrog]

Fallout Mafia

Basic Mafia Rules:

Spoiler:

1. Do not talk about the game outside this thread.
2. You may not edit your posts.
3. All votes should be made by posting on a new line, IN BOLD. For example,
VOTE: BoomFrog
4. Don't lurk through the whole game; if you need to drop out, TELL ME. Really bad lurkers ruin the game for everyone.
5. If you aren't part of the game, please post in a separate, forbidden to players, thread for outside analysis.
6. Once I declare nighttime or someone reaches a majority vote (aka, hammered), do not post in the thread
7. If you die, don't say anything for the rest of the game except a simple, "Bah, you got me," which reveals no information.
8. You may not post verbatim or quote from your role PM. Paraphrasing is fine.

Player List:

Spoiler:

1. wam
2. Chickenfish
3. ForAllOfThis
4.An Enraged Platypus - Lynched D2
5. Snark - Lynched D1
6. trineroks
7.TheMaskedGecko
8. JesseScottOwen - Killed by the HKD N1
9. Tim
10. CaptainFinglass

Fallout Mafia specific Rules:

Spoiler:

Setup: Everyone chooses two “tagged skill” by PMing their choice to the mod then roles are randomly assigned, and then starting materials totaling 10 value per player are semi-randomly assigned. No player will start with the materials to actually make anything beyond a knife, spiked glove, leather armor or drugs. Players start with 3hp, if you reach 0hp you die. You cannot have more then 3hp unless an item raises your maximum hp.

Trading and Crafting: During the day you can give raw materials to other players by PMing the mod. If you give a crafted item with a value higher then 4 then what you gave is publicly displayed. If you give a smaller item then only how many items where given is publicly displayed. Who you give an item to is always publicly displayed. You can craft an item on the recipe list during the day by PMing the mod. You may disassemble any item besides drugs, turning it into it's raw materials, but you lose one material of your choice if you don't have the repair skill. You can craft or disassemble any number of times during the day.

Night action results: Players will be told what weapons and first aid were used on them and will be told if their action failed due to the target using stealth or a stealthboy. Players who are lynched or killed during the night will have their stuff divided evenly by lottery in the morning. The cause of death will be revealed for all deaths.

Mafia NK: Hunter Killer Drone: One member of the mafia can use the HKD as their action item that night. It cannot be used twice a night even if you use jet. Your target takes 7 damage and if they are killed then all of their crafted items value higher then 4 are destroyed. All of their other items and materials are taken by the player who used the HKD. Using Psycho does not affect the damage of the HKD, and using the HKD does not prevent self mutilation of someone on psycho withdrawal.

Skills:

Spoiler:

Pick two.
• Small Guns – You deal an extra damage with Pistol and Rifle and the shotgun becomes 2damagex2.
• Big Guns – You are able to use the flamer and rocket launcher and you deal an extra damage with the junk launcher.
• Energy Weapons – You deal an extra damage with Laser Pistol and Plasma Rifle.
• Unarmed – You have the “Action item” fists that deals 1 damage (melee). You deal an extra damage with the spiked glove and two extra with the rocket fist.
• Melee Weapons – You deal an extra damage with Knife, Sword and Super Sledge. You are able to use a Super Sledge
• Throwing – You deal an extra 1 damage with Grenades and you may throw a knife. If thrown a knife loses (melee) but if you do not kill your target then they keep the knife.
• Medicine – When you use a firstaid kit you can target two people and help both or them. It is still consumed if either target is healed.
• Sneak – Once per game you can choose to use no items at all that night and hide. All actions used on you that night will fail except the mafia nightkill.
• Lock pick – Once per game, instead of using an action item, you may steal two random materials from a target player.
• Science – When you create drugs you produce two instead of one. You can "dissasemble" drugs at the same ratios that you craft them. (no materials lost)
• Repair – You do not lose a material when disassembling an item. Repairing only costs you one Scrap or one Leather.
• Speech – Once per game you can persuade the group to let you take an item of your choice from the lottery before it is distributed in exchange for not getting anything else from this lottery. If two people use speech to take the same item then it is randomly givin to one of them. You have 24 hours from the day start to use speech before the lottery is resolved.
• Barter – You recive 13 value in semi-random starting materials instead of 10.

Items:

Spoiler:

Action items: You may use one Action item each night against one target. If a melee attack fails to kill your target then your target will automatically use their best melee weapon against you and your target will be told who attacked them.
• Pistol – 1damage, and becomes Unloaded Pistol
• Rifle – 2damage, and becomes Unloaded Rifle
• Shotgun – 1damagex3 and becomes Unloaded Shotgun
• Laser pistol – 1damage (ignores armor) and becomes Dead Laser Pistol
• Plasma Rifle – 2damage (ignores armor) and becomes Dead Plasma Rifle
• Knife – 1damage (melee)
• Sword – 2damage (melee)
• Super Sledge 3damage (melee). Only usable if you have the melee weapons skill or power armor or using buffout.
• Spiked Glove – 1damage (melee)
• Rocket Fist – 3damage (melee). If used actively the target cannot counter attack or take any action tonight if they were damaged by this attack. Becomes Unloaded Rocket Fist if used actively.
• Junk Launcher – 2damage
• Flamer – 3damage (ignores armor) and 2damage (ignores armor) to anyone engaged in melee with your target. Becomes Unloaded Flamer. Must have Big Guns skill to use.
• Rocket Launcher – 5damage and 3damage to anyone engaged in melee with your target. Becomes Unloaded Rocket Launcher. Must have Big Guns skill to use.
• Grenade – 2damage and anyone engaged in melee with your target takes 1damage. Consumed.
• EMP Grenade – Your target and anyone in melee with him has their Laser Pistol, Plasma Rifle and Power Armor become Dead. This takes effect before other attacks. This only affects items they are trying to use tonight. Consumed.
• Booby-trap – Use on yourself. A random player to target you in melee takes 3damage before attacking. Consumed if triggered.
• First Aid Kit – Target is healed 2hp after all attacks are resolved if they are still alive. (You may target yourself). Consumed if your target has any wounds actually healed. Your target is informed who gave them first aid if you actually heal thier wounds.
• Stealthboy – You may use another action tonight. Your melee attacks do an extra two damage. If they live they still do not identify you. If you use this without making an attack tonight then all actions targeting you tonight are canceled. (They fail but without cost)

Armor: If an attack hurts you or is barely stopped by your armor (ignoring effects of Med-X) then your armor becomes damaged. Damaged armor blocks one less damage per attack. Armor can be damaged multiple times.
• Leather Armor – Blocks 1damage per attack.
• Metal Armor – Blocks 2damage per attack.
• Combat Armor – Blocks 3damage per attack.
• Power Armor – Blocks 4damage per attack, attacks that ignore armor are still reduced by 2damage. You deal an extra damage with melee attacks. Each night you must choose to wear the armor or not, if you do it becomes Dead Power Armor.

Drugs: You may use each drug once per night. If you take a specific drug twice in the game then you suffer it’s withdrawal effect each night that you don’t use that drug.
• Buff Out – You gain two temporary HP and one Max HP until the start of tomorrow night and you can use a super sledge. Withdrawal: You lose two Max HP.
• Jet – You may use a second action item tonight. You may reload your weapon between your two actions. Withdrawal: You cannot use any action items.
• Psycho – Any damage you cause tonight does one more hp of damage. Withdrawal: You must do two or more damage to another player or you do one damage to yourself. (Using the mafia NK does not fullfil this requirment. It's too impersonal)
• Med-X – Any damage you take tonight is reduced by one. Withdrawal: Any damage you take is increased by one.
• StimPak – You are healed for one damage before attacks are resolved. Withdrawal: First Aid Kits do not affect you.

Recipe List: The number in parenthesis is the mod’s estimate of the items relative value.
• (4) Pistol – 3xScrap, Gunpowder OR Unloaded Pistol, Scrap, Gunpowder
• (7) Rifle - Pistol, 3xScrap OR Unloaded Rifle, Scrap, Gunpowder
• (7) Shotgun – pistol, 3xScrap OR Unloaded Shotgun, Scrap, Gunpowder
• (5) Laser pistol – 2xScrap, Chemicals, Battery, OR Unloaded laser pistol, Battery
• (11) Plasma rifle – Laser pistol, Fusion cell, 2xScrap, Chemicals OR Unloaded plasma rifle, Fusion cell
• (2) Knife – 2xScrap
• (6) Sword – 3x Scrap, Leather, knife
• (9) Super Sledge – 3xScrap, Fusion cellx2
• (2) Spiked Glove – Scrap, Leather
• (9) Rocket Fist – Spiked Glove, 2xScrap, 2xFuel, Leather OR Unloaded Rocket Fist, 2xFuel
• (10) Junk Launcher – 4xScrap, 2xLeather, 2xBattery
• (10) Flamer – 4xScrap, 2x Leather, 2xfuel OR Unloaded Flamer, 2xfuel
• (10) Rocket Launcher – 7xScrap, fuel, Gunpowder OR Unloaded Rocket Launcher, Scrap, fuel, Gunpowder
• (4) Grenade – 3xGunpowder, Scrap
• (4) EMP Grenade – Battery, Chemicals, Scrap
• (6) Booby-trap – Grenade, 2x Leather
• (4) First Aid Kit – 3x Chemicals, Leather
• (5) Stealthboy – Fusion cell, Battery

Armor: You can repair one damage to your armor for the cost of one Scrap and one Leather. You cannot upgrade damaged armor.
• (3) Leather Armor – 3xLeather
• (6) Metal Armor – Leather Armor, 3xScrap
• (9) Combat Armor – Metal Armor, 2xScrap, Leather
• (17) Power Armor – Combat Armor, 4xScrap, Leather, Fusion cell OR Dead Power Armor, Fusion cell

Drugs:
• (3) Buff Out – Gunpowder, 2x Chemicals
• (3) Jet – Battery, Chemicals
• (4) Psycho – Fuel, Scrap, Chemicals
• (4) Med-X – Fuel, 2x Chemicals
• (3) StimPak – 3x Chemicals

Materials: (1) Scrap, (1) Leather, (2) Battery Pack, (1) Chemicals, (3) Fusion cell, (2) Fuel, (1) Gunpowder.

Changelog

Spoiler:

Stealth and Barter nerfed, Medicine, Speech and Lockpick buffed, Repair and Science changed, Mafia NK details added, disassembly without the repair skill added, starting materials can be sufficient for kinfe, spiked glove, leather armor or drugs. Knife and spiked glove cost decreased, Junk launcher cost increased, stealthboy slightly buffed.

[BoomFrog]

You sit in your bed with a start as an alarm sounds. This isn't a drill, drills are on the third Tuesday of even numbered months and this is the second Wednesday of an odd numbered month! You quickly put on your jumpsuit and pip-boy wrist computer then head through the twisting but familiar tunnels to the central meeting hall. Almost everyone is already gathered, not counting the infirm elderly and the children there's only eleven of you left. For generations your population has been dwindling and there's been talk of opening the vault door and sending out an explorer to see if the outside is habitable yet. But that's foolish desperate talk, the outside will never be habitable again. These ten other souls are the last hope of humanity.

The Chief Director BoomFrog stands before you, flanked by two Securitron Roboguards. "It is with great sadness that I must alert you all that the Securitron's have detected the presence of three communists among us." There is a collective gasp. "That's right! It's what we've feared for generations! Communists viral thinking has infected some of our fellow citizens! But our forefathers have prepared us for this eventuality. Securitrons! Activate Anti-Communist Lock-down Protocol Alpha!

"Aye Director, Anti-Communist Lock-down Protocol Alpha activated" The securitrons respond before proceeding to blast the directors head off with their laser cannons. "The chief director is responsible for the thoughts of those under him and is therefore a communist as long as there are communists within the vault. The penalty for communism is death. Due to the unfortunate death of the Chief Director there will be an election today to choose a new Director by democratic vote. If no director is elected then one will be appointed to maintain stability in this emergency state. Have a good day citizens."

Woah! You didn't think the securitrons would take that so literally. Looks like whoever is elected the new director is also going to get blasted unless there are no more communists left in the vault. You also know that there is a three minute window at night when the securitrons undergo maintenance. You have a feeling that it is going to be a very dangerous night tonight. You start to prepare.

There are ten players alive. 6 votes to lynch.
You may craft items or give items to another player by PMing the mod. Any trade or crafting instructions given in thread will be ignored.
There are seven town, three mafia.
Deadline is in about 7 days from now.

[BoomFrog]

No player will start with the materials to actually make anything beyond a knife, spiked glove, leather armor or drugs.

This rule was hard to follow but I did my best. On the off chance that you can craft something with what you got then congratulations on your luck.

[ForAllOfThis]

Ok, my first concern is how are we going to arrange trades without the mafia knowing what we are building (or at least having some clue)? The only idea I have is for each player to have a 'for sale list' and people send items of equal value to that player and they have to trade. That's a bad idea because it makes it difficult to specify which item you want. Although both players could continually reject counter-offers until a deal is agreed and scum wouldn't know exactly what was being traded (unless you are trading with scum). It's abit long winded and will be increasingly difficult to maintain with crafted equipment, what do people think?


Fallout for people who have never played it:

Spoiler:

With the game being fairly open, I don't expect to see much rolespec. Fallout is in a world after the leaders decide to nuke to planet. There are vaults set up all around america that kept survivors, although most of these vaults are actually psychological testing facilities. In Fallout 3 you start in one of these vaults, in Fallout new vegas you don't. Outside of the vaults is known as 'the wasteland'. There are several humanoids - supermutants who are giant brutes that attack you on sight (http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/1/18/FO3_super_mutant.png), ghouls, skinless humans who are healed by radioactivity (some insane, some sane) (http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/files/costumes/89/24324/gub.png, various giant bugs (ants, scorpions etc.). In the games you are free to go around the wasteland, solve sidequests, become evil or good etc. That's probably the briefiest overview I can give.

,

[JesseScottOwen]

Okay, the starting materials are Scrap, Leather, Batteries, Chemicals, Fusion Cells, Fuel, and Gunpowder. I'm really not sure what "Scrap" is. Scrap metal?

I am completely ignorant of all things Fallout, so, does anyone have any ideas for how to craft what, with what?

[wam]

FAOT

Your system sounds complicated but good. Although as long as we are only trading raw materials it would be hard for scum to work out what we were building as stuff is used in so many different things, and once you get to more valuable crafted items they get posted in the thread anyway.

So what im basically trying to say, is it worth all the effort to hide what we are building?

My answer is probably yes if we can come up with a decent system.

JSO

FAOT posted a decent summary in the spoiler and if you look at Boomfrogs opening posts there is a recipe list for what you can build and what you need to achieve that.

[wam]

EBWOP

I meant to add, that i belive scrap is scrap metal, based on what it can be used to create.

[Snark]

DON"T TRADE ANYTHING UNLESS YOU"RE SCUM!!!

I'll have a post up in less than 20 minutes detailing why we shouldn't, at least for D1.

[Snark]

Ok, here's my logic:

Assuming that BoomFrog divided the skills correctly for the most part, a good portion of us should be able to make leather armor so that even if all 3 mafia ganged up on the same person (besides the NK target) tonight, they'd be unlikely to kill them (since their best weapon will be knife, which is fully blocked by leather armor), and since the target would know who attacked them, they'd survive to tell town who all 3 mafia are. (If mafia try to lie and say they were attacked, it will work similarly to a cop result, where if we lynch a accused attacker and they turn out town, then we can lynch the scum who cried wolf the next day). Thus if we tell everyone not to use melee weapons on each other tonight, the mafia can't disobey without running a terrible risk. This will buy us an extra day to scum-hunt before attacking each other.

What do you guys think of the no-trade plan on D1???

BoomFrog, do scum have day chat?

If the answer to this question is yes, then it becomes even more dangerous to trade D1 as scum will probably be able to arrange better trades with each other than town will.
If the answer is no and anyone finds a problem with my logic above or if most people disagree that a no-trade on D1 strategy is best for town, then we can trade.

[t1mm01994]

Quick swoop in: I find it highly unlikely that "a good portion of us" has got 3 leather.

[Snark]

That may be so, but how likely is it that all three mafia members can make a knife. That lowers the chances a bit.

[Snark]

The cause of death will be revealed for all deaths.

Does this include the attacker(s) or just the weapons used?

Action items: You may use one Action item each night against one target. If a melee attack fails to kill your target then your target will automatically use their best melee weapon against you and your target will be told who attacked them.

If Player A has 3 hp and a knife, and Player B has 1 hp and a knife, and Player A attacks Player B, will Player B die before retaliating?

If Players A, B, and C each have 3 hp and a pistol, and Player A attacks Player B, and Player B attacks Player C, will Player B use their single bullet to retaliate against Player A or to attack Player C?

[trineroks]

Hey hey hey everyone what's up? This is definitely one of the more interesting Mafia games I've seen.

As for Snark, I seriously doubt everyone started off with same/similar item setups.

[JesseScottOwen]

Anyone want to do the math and figure out what item setups most of us are likely to have, considering none of us can build anything better than a knife, spiked gloves, leather armor, or drugs?

[Snark]

Anyone want to do the math and figure out what item setups most of us are likely to have, considering none of us can build anything better than a knife, spiked gloves, leather armor, or drugs?

It depends on the maximum amount of any one item that a person got. If BoomFrog capped it at 4 or less per item, then our odds are 101/396 = 25.5% to be able to make leather armor. If he put no caps, the odds rise to 32.6%. If the cap is 3 per item, we have only a 19.1% chance of having 3 leather. See the code below, written in C.

Code: Select all

int main()
{
int S, L, BP, C, FC, F, G;
int numways = 0, num3leather = 0;
int maxper = 4;              //Maximum amount of a single item
for(S=0; S<=maxper; S++)
for(L=0; L<=maxper; L++)
for(BP=0; BP<=maxper; BP++)
for(C=0; C<=maxper; C++)
for(FC=0; FC<=maxper; FC++)
for(F=0; F<=maxper; F++)
for(G=0; G<=maxper; G++)
{
 if(S+L+2*BP+C+3*FC+2*F+G==10)
 if(S<3 || G<1)               //Pistol
 if(S<2 || BP<1 || C<1)       //Laser pistol
 if(S<5 || L<1)               //Sword
 if(S<3 || FC<2)              //Super sledge
 if(S<3 || L<2 || F<2)        //Rocket fist
 if(S<4 || L<2 || BP<2)       //Junk launcher
 if(S<1 || G<3)               //Grenade
 if(S<1 || BP<1 || C<1)       //EMP grenade
 if(L<1 || C<3)               //First aid kit
 if(BP<1 || FC<1)             //Stealthboy
 if(S<3 || L<3)               //Metal armor
 {
   numways++;
   if(L>=3)
    num3leather++;
 }
}
printf("%d\n", numways);
printf("%d\n", num3leather);
 
system("pause");
return 0;   
}


Of course, BoomFrog probably didn't use a computer to generate his results based on his lack of faith in being able to make sure everyone's items met the restrictions for crafting abilities. And if he didn't use a computer and instead just eyeballed it, then the probabilities above are probably not very accurate, and I wasted a good half an hour on this program and the results.

Also, if we're informed of the attackers when we're informed of the cause of death (still waiting on the mod to answer that question), then this is all pointless, and we should agree not to attack anyone at night without group consensus first.

[Snark]

Note: If someone has Barter, the numbers become 31.3% for 4-cap, 40.2% for no-cap, and 24.7% for 3-cap.

[ForAllOfThis]

@Snark: What about the unarmored/melee skills? If any of the scum took those skills and has scrap/leather or 2xscrap, then they could make a spiked glove or knife and deal 2 damage. If the other two have unarmored, or one has unarmored/melee and correct materials then that's a total of 4 damage (which is more than enough to kill someone, even with them wearing leather armor). There's also the possibility that one of them could make a Psycho/Jet, leading to extra damage as well and killing someone with leather armor. Under that scenario, scum get a free kill tonight on top of the HKD.

Basically, I disagree with Snark (and already I feel he's taking a scummy gambit, trying to lead us into scum grabbing a free kill tonight). I think the best chance we have tonight of preventing a second kill is to trade. It's going to make trying to get an extra kill a lot more risky for scum because they won't know what to expect (where the least of their worries under Snarks plan is leather armor, buff out and Med-x). On top of that all trades are effectively public, which is going to generate some really good D1 discussion ( which should help with choosing a lynch target today).

My only concern is how to keep scum knowing what is being traded, because I can see them hunting down the players with all of the leather/scrap (as those two items are used to make armors) just to stop us crafting the higher level armors, effectively giving themselves two kills.

Mod: How does trading work exactly? Can we only send items to another player (very basic trade system), or could a player list an item for sale publically then players make offers in private through yourself and if accepted those items are traded and if rejected the player who makes the offer is told?

[BoomFrog]

BoomFrog, do scum have day chat?

Yes, the mafia have daychat.

The cause of death will be revealed for all deaths.

Does this include the attacker(s) or just the weapons used?

All the weapons that caused damage that night to the deceased will be reported. The attackers will not be reported.

Action items: You may use one Action item each night against one target. If a melee attack fails to kill your target then your target will automatically use their best melee weapon against you and your target will be told who attacked them.

If Player A has 3 hp and a knife, and Player B has 1 hp and a knife, and Player A attacks Player B, will Player B die before retaliating?

Yes, Player B dies and player A is unharmed.

If Players A, B, and C each have 3 hp and a pistol, and Player A attacks Player B, and Player B attacks Player C, will Player B use their single bullet to retaliate against Player A or to attack Player C?

You only retaliate with melee weapons, so Player B attacks player C.

Mod: How does trading work exactly? Can we only send items to another player (very basic trade system), or could a player list an item for sale publically then players make offers in private through yourself and if accepted those items are traded and if rejected the player who makes the offer is told?

Very Basic trading. You send me a PM saying, "I give X to Y". I will also accept simple conditional trades like, "I give to X to Y if Y gives me Z." and "I give three X to Y, one at a time if I get a Z back after each one." However these are all by PM, and there is no simultaneous trading, only giving and trusting them to give back.

does anyone have any ideas for how to craft what, with what?

The basics are you look at the recipe list in the 2nd post and send me a PM saying you craft something on the list that you have the materials for. If you need more explanation on how to craft please ask. This is a 99% open game and the crafting system is supposed to be clear.

[Snark]

@FAOT
It's not a scummy gambit. I was merely proposing a possible strategy that I knew was worth considering. If most people agree that town is better off with trading, I'm all for it. In fact, I need a scrap if anyone would like to trade with me. I won't trade unless it's ok with the majority of players though.

[trineroks]

That's the first time I've seen anyone use C to map out probabilities in a forum mafia game. Well, I guess this IS an xkcd community...

Don't know about your meta, Snark, but I got a strange feeling about you and your three posts playing the statistics. Item distribution isn't so important that it warrants such overanalytical posts.

[Snark]

That's the first time I've seen anyone use C to map out probabilities in a forum mafia game. Well, I guess this IS an xkcd community...

Don't know about your meta, Snark, but I got a strange feeling about you and your three posts playing the statistics. Item distribution isn't so important that it warrants such overanalytical posts.

And tell me how over-analytic posts hurt town? Information is power.

Ok. More over-analysis: The probability of being able to make a knife is only 102/396 = 26% for a 4-cap without Barter and 129/523 = 25% for a 4-cap with Barter.

I don't think the probabilities are high that scum have the item and skill combinations necessary to be sure to produce 4 damage tonight or 3 damage to someone without armor. But once again, if y'all disagree and think that BoomFrog's handouts were less than random, then say so. Majority opinion should rule.

And if you think that having fun playing the numbers, introducing a valid argument, and calling for a majority vote is scummy or gives you a "strange feeling" then you're probably scum looking to create a D1 mis-lynch target.

[wam]

I am fairly certain there is no cap on items, so snark that should make your maths easier .

Based on what I received I supect that there is some link between your chosen skills and the items you recieve.

I also think we should trade items, for two reasons. 1 it makes it much more interesting! 2 it should give us more information.

E.g. scum attck someone in the night and they get hurt in retaliation, it should help us work out who attacked whom (this only applies to meelee weapons). Also as we will be told the weapons used, we can go back through the previous days trades and get an idea who would have been trying to craft that specific weapon.

Mod: do the health levels of everyone get published in thread or just by PM?

[t1mm01994]

You are aware of the fact that your statistics mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as long as you don't know which method the mod used to distribute items, right? If I say that I'll pick a number between 1 and 10, you'll conjecture now that there's a 50% chance I pick a number > 5. However, I picked 1 all the time. Statistics be meaningless if you don't know how the original stuffs are chosen.

[Chickenfish]

That's the first time I've seen anyone use C to map out probabilities in a forum mafia game. Well, I guess this IS an xkcd community...

Don't know about your meta, Snark, but I got a strange feeling about you and your three posts playing the statistics. Item distribution isn't so important that it warrants such overanalytical posts.

And tell me how over-analytic posts hurt town? Information is power.

Ok. More over-analysis: The probability of being able to make a knife is only 102/396 = 26% for a 4-cap without Barter and 129/523 = 25% for a 4-cap with Barter.

I don't think the probabilities are high that scum have the item and skill combinations necessary to be sure to produce 4 damage tonight or 3 damage to someone without armor. But once again, if y'all disagree and think that BoomFrog's handouts were less than random, then say so. Majority opinion should rule.

And if you think that having fun playing the numbers, introducing a valid argument, and calling for a majority vote is scummy or gives you a "strange feeling" then you're probably scum looking to create a D1 mis-lynch target.

I'm not sure what you've done here, but I'd reassess your maths. I don't see how Barter can make it less likely that someone will be able to make an item from the start.
I also agree that trading will leave a good paper-trail for future days. Even though we're not told specifics of what's traded, given the amount of talk about trading that will happen, it seems likely that we'll have a pretty good idea of what's going where.

@FAOT
It's not a scummy gambit. I was merely proposing a possible strategy that I knew was worth considering. If most people agree that town is better off with trading, I'm all for it. In fact, I need a scrap if anyone would like to trade with me. I won't trade unless it's ok with the majority of players though.

Firstly, apologies for quoting in reverse chronological order, but I thought I'd address things in the order that was best for getting my point across.
Snark - so early and you're already attempting to appease people. I really don't know how to read this as anything other than scummy. You were so confident initially that trading would be awful, but you quickly lost your conviction when it looked like an unpopular idea.
Then you ask for a material that scum NEED for their weapons?

Sure, we've got trading and game mechanics to discuss, but let's not forget this is mafia!
Vote: Snark

[ForAllOfThis]

@Snark: I still dislike the idea. We know that items weren't randomly distributed because if they were then there would be a chance someone could make more than what the mod has stated. Which means the mod may have intentionally given scum the appropriate items to punish us for not trading. As a general rule of thumb, mods tend to build in scenarios to punish factions/people who do not play the game as the mod intended (whether this be day one mass claims or exploiting a built in game mechanic to try to gain an advatange, i.e. trading). I just think your plan has 'backfire' written all over it.

What I would suggest though is not saying what you need & can trade just yet. In saying what you need, it might suggest to scum what you already have (all they have to do is look at pro-town items to get a clue) which is extremely dangerous. At least until we can work out the best way to trade items.

I can already see this trade/not to trade discussion going round in circles very quickly, and before we know it we'll be close to deadline, not traded anything, and not had much scum-hunting discussion so I think it's best we vote and move past this matter.

Vote: Trading

[wam]

FAOT

Sounds like a good plan to me.

vote:trading

[Snark]

I am fairly certain there is no cap on items, so snark that should make your maths easier.[/b]

I'm using a computer program, so making the "maths easier" is no problem. Also, I'm aware there's no cap on items outlined in the rules but if BoomFrog simply eyeballed our starting items then it's highly unlikely he gave anyone 5 or more of a single item.

You are aware of the fact that your statistics mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as long as you don't know which method the mod used to distribute items, right? If I say that I'll pick a number between 1 and 10, you'll conjecture now that there's a 50% chance I pick a number > 5. However, I picked 1 all the time. Statistics be meaningless if you don't know how the original stuffs are chosen.

I'm well aware and already said as much here:

Of course, BoomFrog probably didn't use a computer to generate his results based on his lack of faith in being able to make sure everyone's items met the restrictions for crafting abilities. And if he didn't use a computer and instead just eyeballed it, then the probabilities above are probably not very accurate, and I wasted a good half an hour on this program and the results.

That's the first time I've seen anyone use C to map out probabilities in a forum mafia game. Well, I guess this IS an xkcd community...

Don't know about your meta, Snark, but I got a strange feeling about you and your three posts playing the statistics. Item distribution isn't so important that it warrants such overanalytical posts.

And tell me how over-analytic posts hurt town? Information is power.

Ok. More over-analysis: The probability of being able to make a knife is only 102/396 = 26% for a 4-cap without Barter and 129/523 = 25% for a 4-cap with Barter.

I don't think the probabilities are high that scum have the item and skill combinations necessary to be sure to produce 4 damage tonight or 3 damage to someone without armor. But once again, if y'all disagree and think that BoomFrog's handouts were less than random, then say so. Majority opinion should rule.

And if you think that having fun playing the numbers, introducing a valid argument, and calling for a majority vote is scummy or gives you a "strange feeling" then you're probably scum looking to create a D1 mis-lynch target.

I'm not sure what you've done here, but I'd reassess your maths. I don't see how Barter can make it less likely that someone will be able to make an item from the start.

The maths are correct. More items makes scrap more likely to cause a player to be able to make better items than are allowed.

@FAOT
It's not a scummy gambit. I was merely proposing a possible strategy that I knew was worth considering. If most people agree that town is better off with trading, I'm all for it. In fact, I need a scrap if anyone would like to trade with me. I won't trade unless it's ok with the majority of players though.

Firstly, apologies for quoting in reverse chronological order, but I thought I'd address things in the order that was best for getting my point across.
Snark - so early and you're already attempting to appease people. I really don't know how to read this as anything other than scummy. You were so confident initially that trading would be awful, but you quickly lost your conviction when it looked like an unpopular idea.
Then you ask for a material that scum NEED for their weapons?

Sure, we've got trading and game mechanics to discuss, but let's not forget this is mafia!
Vote: Snark

You're acting naively. I was not "so confident initially". I thought it was a possibly good idea, and I wanted people's feedback initially. Did you happen to see my first post about the no-trade strategy? (see below, underlined for emphasis):

What do you guys think of the no-trade plan on D1???

BoomFrog, do scum have day chat?

If the answer to this question is yes, then it becomes even more dangerous to trade D1 as scum will probably be able to arrange better trades with each other than town will.
If the answer is no and anyone finds a problem with my logic above or if most people disagree that a no-trade on D1 strategy is best for town, then we can trade.

Then you ask for a material that scum NEED for their weapons?

You're making incorrect assumptions. I want it for metal armor.


I have presented a valid argument for what i thought was possibly a good idea. No one has agreed with it. I'm bowing out.
Vote: Trading
Not in bold, because I'm not trying to lynch trading.

[t1mm01994]

Some more upsides of trading:
- If you actually do create your item, and it has value >4, it's safe out of scum's hands.
- Some middle-class items can be made.
- It can be used to scumhunt.

Downsides:
- Scum can create semi-powerful items, too. This'll probably hurt.
- It's hard to successfully set up. I don't see a way to trade without making it painfully clear what your goal is.
- Scum benefits from it in other ways too; they can avoid people with Leather, and pick on people with Gunpowder.

My overall opinion: We shouldn't blindly go and trade all sorts of stuffs. However, I'm in favour of trading when a system is worked out.

@Snark: I'm confused as for why you kept on pushing the stats, if you knew they'd likely mean nothing. Oh. I can also swoop the less or equal to 4 items from the same item off the table.

[Snark]

@Snark: I'm confused as for why you kept on pushing the stats, if you knew they'd likely mean nothing.

From the beginning I gave the disclaimer that BoomFrog probably didn't divide items perfectly randomly. You were all free to draw whatever conclusions you wished, and I said that. The majority of people concluded that trading was best for town. So that's what it appears that we're going to do.

[BoomFrog]

Mod: do the health levels of everyone get published in thread or just by PM?

Health totals are only told to individuals by PM.

[Chickenfish]

The maths are correct. More items makes scrap more likely to cause a player to be able to make better items than are allowed.

You were stating the odds of being able to make a knife... not that a knife was the 'best' item that somebody could make, no? More materials = more chance of knife... either way not really relevant...

You're acting naively. I was not "so confident initially". I thought it was a possibly good idea, and I wanted people's feedback initially. Did you happen to see my first post about the no-trade strategy? (see below, underlined for emphasis):

What do you guys think of the no-trade plan on D1???

Fair enough. Poor choice of words by me. Being swayed so easily by the popular vote is still scummy.

You're making incorrect assumptions. I want it for metal armor.

Null tell, really. Easy enough to say.

I have presented a valid argument for what i thought was possibly a good idea. No one has agreed with it. I'm bowing out.

Fair enough.
Unvote

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now, but IGMEOY.

I've already "voted trading" (this bolding/underlining thing is silly), but we do need to be careful. Helping people make good armour/drugs is pointless if the by-product is helping scum make superweapons.

[wam]

On the trading, my thought is that we state what we are looking for in thread, people then offer that, with a clause attached,

e.g. A would say I want leather and B would send a message to boomfrog saying give A 1 leather in return for 1 scrap or give 2 leather in return for 1 fuel . etc, that way we can just about keep what we already have secret. All the items seem to have a lot of uses so it shouldn't be to obvious.

Also I think anyone asking for gunpowder, fusion cells and fuel should be treated with a lot of suspcion, as these seem to be the most dangerous to me.

[Snark]

Pro-trade
wam
Chickenfish
FAOT
Snark
Tim

Anti-trade

No opinion expressed
trineroks
JesseScottOwen

Not yet posted
An Enraged Platypus
TheMaskedGecko
CaptainFinglass

I think the pro-trades have it. Unless all 5 of the others come out anti-trade, and we get a tie (unlikely).

[Snark]

On the trading, my thought is that we state what we are looking for in thread, people then offer that, with a clause attached,

e.g. A would say I want leather and B would send a message to boomfrog saying give A 1 leather in return for 1 scrap or give 2 leather in return for 1 fuel . etc, that way we can just about keep what we already have secret. All the items seem to have a lot of uses so it shouldn't be to obvious.

Also I think anyone asking for gunpowder, fusion cells and fuel should be treated with a lot of suspcion, as these seem to be the most dangerous to me.

Your system won't keep anything secret. If B sends the PM to BoomFrog, A will have no idea what items B requested in return for the hypothetical leather.

Gunpowder can go in a Booby-trap.
Fusion cell is needed for Power armor.
Fuel is needed for Med-X.

These are all mostly pro-town items. I don't think any one item is completely safe to trade or completely horrible to trade. Except perhaps fusion cell because even later in the game, it's unlikely that anyone will have 5 leather and 9 scrap, but no fusion cell for a needed power armor.


I still need a scrap. Would anyone like to request something I might have in exchange?

[wam]

[quote=Snark]Your system won't keep anything secret. If B sends the PM to BoomFrog, A will have no idea what items B requested in return for the hypothetical leather.[/quote]

I was under the assumption based on boomfrogs post that he would then tell A what was required for the trade. Boomfrog, could you please clarify this

As for the items I considered suspicous it was due to the fact that the majority of what they build is bad for town, it's why I said suspicous not banned!

Snark I will trade scrap with you.

I want leather by the way.

[Snark]

I'm not trading yet, because I have an idea. By the way, I can't give you leather. I only have 3.

Here's my idea:

Problem: If two scum trade with each other, they can trade whatever items they want without town knowing anything except the number of items traded. Example ScumA says I need leather, ScumD says I'll give you leather for chemicals. They proceed to trade Fusion cell and gunpowder. Town has no idea that this happened.

Solution: Require every trade to have 2 people in between moderating the trade (this can be any two people). Then ScumA has to pass the item to TownB who passes it to TownC who passes it to ScumD. Then ScumD passes his/her item back through the intermediaries again to ScumA.

So every trade involves 4 people, and therefore includes at least 1 town. Thus town will always know exactly what is being traded.

Note: If BoomFrog will notify players of any conditional trade offers (as wam has already asked in the post above), then we could opt for trade privacy at the cost/risk of letting scum trade with scum. But I doubt that being notified is the case, so the solution I proposed makes all trades public, which I think is better for town than scum.

[Snark]

I really should have thought about that plan for more than 10 minutes before posting.

If two scum are ever next to each other in the 4 person lineup, then they can trade whatever they want because there's no way to know that it's the same item being passed all the way down the line.

Ignore my above post.

[t1mm01994]

Wow-wow-wow-WOW- What am I doing on the pro-trading list? Until there's a plan, I'm anti-trading.. And heavens forbid; if people trade while I'm not happy with trading, I'll go and lead lynches.

[Snark]

EBWOP:
Pro-trade
wam
Chickenfish
FAOT
Snark
Tim*


*But don't do a **** thing until there's a plan


Anyone else want a cool asterisk next to their name?