US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

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US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:13 am UTC

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/06/report_ ... singleton/
Spoiler:
When the U.S. wants to fund, train, arm or otherwise align itself with a Terrorist group or state sponsor of Terror — as it often does — it at least usually has the tact to first remove them from its formal terrorist list (as the U.S. did when it wanted to support Saddam in 1982 and work with Libya in 2006), or it just keeps them off the list altogether despite what former Council on Foreign Relations writer Lionel Beehner described as “mounds of evidence that [they] at one time or another abetted terrorists” (as it has done with close U.S. allies in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, along with the El Salvadoran death squads and Nicaraguan contras armed and funded in the 1980s by the Reagan administration). But according to a new, multi-sourced report from The New Yorker‘s Seymour Hersh, the U.S. did not even bother going through those motions when, during the Bush years, it trained the Iranian dissident group Mujahideen-e-Khalq (MEK) at a secretive Department of Energy site in Nevada:

It was here that the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) conducted training, beginning in 2005, for members of the Mujahideen-e-Khalq, a dissident Iranian opposition group known in the West as the M.E.K. . . . The M.E.K.’s ties with Western intelligence deepened after the fall of the Iraqi regime in 2003, and JSOC began operating inside Iran in an effort to substantiate the Bush Administration’s fears that Iran was building the bomb at one or more secret underground locations. Funds were covertly passed to a number of dissident organizations, for intelligence collection and, ultimately, for anti-regime terrorist activities. Directly, or indirectly, the M.E.K. ended up with resources like arms and intelligence. Some American-supported covert operations continue in Iran today, according to past and present intelligence officials and military consultants.

Despite the growing ties, and a much-intensified lobbying effort organized by its advocates, M.E.K. has remained on the State Department’s list of foreign terrorist organizations – which meant that secrecy was essential in the Nevada training. ”We did train them here, and washed them through the Energy Department because the D.O.E. owns all this land in southern Nevada,” a former senior American intelligence official told me. “We were deploying them over long distances in the desert and mountains, and building their capacity in communications — coördinating commo is a big deal.”


A JSOC spokesman told Hersh that ”U.S. Special Operations Forces were neither aware of nor involved in the training of M.E.K. members,” but a MEK lawyer refused to confirm or deny the report, arguing that any such training would undercut the U.S. Government’s claims that MEK belongs on the Terrorist list.

In February, NBC News‘ Richard Engel and Robert Windrem reported, based on two anonymous “senior U.S. officials,” that MEK was the group perpetrating a series of “sophisticated” assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists (using bombs and rifles). NBC also reported that Israel — specifically its Mossad intelligence service — is “ financing, training and arming” MEK: in other words, that Israel is a state sponsor of this designated Terrorist group. Various reports have also indicated that the MEK, with Israeli support, was responsible for a string of explosions on Iranian soil. Hersh obtained independent confirmation of all these claims:

The former senior intelligence official I spoke with seconded the NBC report that the Israelis were working with the M.E.K., adding that the operations benefitted from American intelligence. He said that the targets were not “Einsteins”; “The goal is to affect Iranian psychology and morale,” he said, and to “demoralize the whole system — nuclear delivery vehicles, nuclear enrichment facilities, power plants.” Attacks have also been carried out on pipelines. He added that the operations are “primarily being done by M.E.K. through liaison with the Israelis, but the United States is now providing the intelligence.” An adviser to the special-operations community told me that the links between the United States and M.E.K. activities inside Iran had been long-standing. “Everything being done inside Iran now is being done with surrogates,” he said.


So let’s review what we have here. If this report is true, it means the U.S. Government actively trained a group that the U.S. Government itself legally categorizes as a “foreign terrorist organization,” a clear felony under U.S. law:

Whoever knowingly provides material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization, or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both, and, if the death of any person results, shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.


That alone compels serious DOJ and Congressional investigations into these claims. Worse, this reportedly happened at the very same time that the U.S. aggressively prosecuted and imprisoned numerous Muslims for providing material support for groups on that list even though many of those prosecuted provided support that was far, far less than what the U.S. Government itself was providing to MEK. Meanwhile, right at this moment, America’s closest ally — Israel — is clearly a state sponsor of this designated Terrorist organization, providing training, funding and arms to it, and the U.S. may very well be as well (independent of all else, given that Israel is the largest recipient of U.S. aid, the U.S., at the very least, is financing a state sponsor of Terror).

At the same time, a glittering bipartisan cast of former Washington officials is receiving large payments from this designated Terrorist group, meeting with its leaders, and then advocating on its behalf — again, providing far more material support than many powerless, marginalized Muslims who have been and continue to be prosecuted under this law. All of this appears to be clearly criminal regardless of whether MEK belongs on the list — once a group is placed by the State Department on the list, whether justifiably or not, it is a felony to provide material support to it — but MEK appears to be doing exactly that which is typically considered Terrorism: assassinating civilian scientists (and severely wounding their wives) with bombs and causing other civilian-killing explosions on Iranian soil in order to induce fear.

In the above-linked LA Times Op-Ed by CFR’s Lionel Beehner, he derides the U.S. list of state sponsors of terrorism as ”one of the biggest farces of U.S. foreign policy.” Indeed it is, but that’s equally true of the pervasive, righteous use of the term “terrorist” or “terrorism supporter” in our political and media discourse generally. Anyone in government, media and think tank circles who routinely and angrily accuse others of being “terrorists” or “supporters of terrorism” without recognizing that the U.S. and its closest allies are plainly and routinely guilty of that is just a rank propagandist. That the U.S., in the midst of its vaunted War on Terror, directly trained a group on its own Terrorist list — while its closest ally and Washington’s venerated former officials continue to provide ample support to that group even as it escalates its violent acts – is about as conclusive a demonstration of that fact as one could have conjured.

* * * * *

I’ll be speaking at various events next week, all open the public — in Ottawa on Thursday, April 12; at the University of Chicago on Saturday, April 14; and in Washington D.C., on Sunday, April 15.



UPDATE: As L.Boogie notes in comments, the law that criminalies the providing of “material support” to a designated terrorist organization explicitly includes in its definition section exactly that which The New Yorker reports the U.S. gave and perhaps continues to give to MEK:

(b) Definitions.— As used in this section—
(1) the term “material support or resources” means any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance . . .

(2) the term “training” means instruction or teaching designed to impart a specific skill, as opposed to general knowledge; and
(3) the term “expert advice or assistance” means advice or assistance derived from scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge.

I know that, in light of recent American history, it’s easy to forget this, but U.S. government officials — whether current or former — are no more entitled to commit felonies and violate U.S. statutes than any other citizens are.
I suppose most people who had thought about the possibility assumed that this is what was happening, but this article manages to compile all the evidence for the conclusion pretty well: its increasingly clear that the US and Israel are state sponsors of terror, specifically the anti-Iranian Mujahideen-e-Khalq.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:32 am UTC

This is kind of stupid. I recognize the need to have allies inside a hostile country, but when the goal is, as a senior intelligence official puts it, "to affect Iranian psychology and morale," then the methods don't really become acceptable. I have nothing wrong with funding groups to sabotage hostile countries' military operations, but I do have a problem when the goal or the means become non-military. I think the most important question is: where the MEK conducting terrorist activities after 2005?
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Derek » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:47 am UTC

Wikipedia article on MEK. I had never heard of them before. According to that they "renounced violence" in 2001 are were removed from the EU list of terrorist organizations in 2009.

So assuming that's all true, they're hardly the worst guys the US has ever backed.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:50 am UTC

The problem is that I'm not sure about their specific actions. If they haven't actually been engaged in targeted attacks against civilians, then I really don't have a moral problem here. But if they have been engaged in attacks designed for the sole purpose of lowering morale / spreading terror, then they are pretty bad.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Thesh » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:00 am UTC

They didn't train terrorists, they trained freedom fighters.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:07 am UTC

Despite what some people say, I don't think that those are matters of perspective. The difference between treason and freedom fighting is perspective. The difference between freedom fighting and terrorism is tactics.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Kulantan » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:10 am UTC

@Thesh, no they cannot confirm or deny that they trained freedom fighters.

@Derek, it would take a lot for them to be the worst guys the US has ever backed. Also, if the accusations of the US providing training are true then it does rather cast some doubt on the whole "have renounced violence" thing.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:11 am UTC

Remind me again why Obama's first act in office wasn't ordering the Attorney General to prosecute Bush for war crimes.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby lutzj » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:14 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Remind me again why Obama's first act in office wasn't ordering the Attorney General to prosecute Bush for war crimes.


Because then he'd have to turn himself in for war crimes in the spirit of consistent enforcement.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:20 am UTC

So we're training a radical Islamic organization in methods of terror, in the hopes that they'll use those tactics against people that they (hopefully) hate more than they hate us. For some reason, I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:29 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Remind me again why Obama's first act in office wasn't ordering the Attorney General to prosecute Bush for war crimes.


Is this a rhetorical criticism of Bush's actions or are you actually wondering?
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:36 am UTC

lutzj wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:Remind me again why Obama's first act in office wasn't ordering the Attorney General to prosecute Bush for war crimes.


Because then he'd have to turn himself in for war crimes in the spirit of consistent enforcement.


Don't be silly. Obama can't even legally do that until after his term is over.

sourmìlk wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:Remind me again why Obama's first act in office wasn't ordering the Attorney General to prosecute Bush for war crimes.


Is this a rhetorical criticism of Bush's actions or are you actually wondering?


Legitimately asking. So much has come out against Bush
and who knows what else is still hiding in the DoD files. Off the top of my head the crimes he's been publically implicated in include war profiteering, fabrication of evidence with the intent to defraud congress, election fraud, and now aiding known terrorists.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Ghostbear » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:38 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Legitimately asking. So much has come out against Bush and who knows what else is still hiding in the DoD files. Off the top of my head the crimes he's been publically implicated in include war profiteering, fabrication of evidence with the intent to defraud congress, election fraud, and now aiding known terrorists.

It's my understanding that it was basically to prevent partisan fighting, with a likely unstated goal of not diminishing the power of the executive office. It'd also have bogged down probably the first year or two of Obama's term. I think those are the major reasons, though someone else might have a better idea.

Not saying that not doing it was a good idea.. I do wish we had persecuted these people.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:45 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Legitimately asking.

Probably the same reason Ford pardoned Nixon: doing otherwise would be way too controversial and unpopular. It's a shame that politics gets in the way of justice.

Ghostbear wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:Legitimately asking. So much has come out against Bush and who knows what else is still hiding in the DoD files. Off the top of my head the crimes he's been publically implicated in include war profiteering, fabrication of evidence with the intent to defraud congress, election fraud, and now aiding known terrorists.

It's my understanding that it was basically to prevent partisan fighting, with a likely unstated goal of not diminishing the power of the executive office. It'd also have bogged down probably the first year or two of Obama's term. I think those are the major reasons, though someone else might have a better idea.

These are also good explanations.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby lutzj » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:48 am UTC

Ghostbear wrote:with a likely unstated goal of not diminishing the power of the executive office.


This is also important. No sane president would call into question the legality of a former president's actions because that would tarnish the office. You don't throw stones in glass houses and especially don't aim for the creepy tinted-glass basement.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Thesh » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:06 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Remind me again why Obama's first act in office wasn't ordering the Attorney General to prosecute Bush for war crimes.


The US has been funding, supplying, and training shady militant organizations non-stop since (before?) Vietnam, under the idea of spreading democracy. Obama isn't a saint, and we are most likely still actively training similar groups (and we are probably still supporting this one) under his administration.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby MartianInvader » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:23 am UTC

It's nice to have sneak preview of the terrorists that will be our country's mortal enemies (and reason for suspending freedoms, funding invasions of oil-rich nations, etc.) in 20 years or so.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby nitePhyyre » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:01 pm UTC

Einstein and insanity.
Iran in the 80s.
How stupid can your country be?
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:27 pm UTC

I don't think that the MEK is being used to incite revolution, I'm pretty sure they're being used for covert operations. The most important question, I think, is this: since 2005, have they been committing acts of terror? If so, then I can't really support funding them. If not, then I think that it's at least morally acceptable to pay groups for discreet operations in hostile countries.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby addams » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:38 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Despite what some people say, I don't think that those are matters of perspective. The difference between treason and freedom fighting is perspective. The difference between freedom fighting and terrorism is tactics.


Spoiled for Rant aimed at Sourmilk.

Spoiler:
Oh, Sourmilk; Yeah. So fucking depressing.

Where to begin? Way back in some dusty book that was not written in English, because, English was not yet spoken? The Ways of War.
Fast forward to a powerful English speaking country. What do ya' get? Same shit. Better equipment.

Sourmilk; you can study war. It is possible to blow through a 4 year education in the subject in about 3 months with an internet connection. It is a lot of reading.

I know stuff. I don't want to know that stuff. It is boring and there is not one thing that I can do about it.

Post Graduate stuff is not easily available. It is not like Science. It is like a creepy Jr. High School. Fucked up is what it is.

The facts:
1. There are agents inside the US working to demoralize the people and turn them against one another.
2. There are agents outside the US working to demoralize the people and turn them against one another.

3. There are double agents. They are allowed to operate and encouraged to operate, because, they are useful to cause confusion. Double agents tend to be nervous and confused and frightened one moment and belligerent, overconfident and selfish the next. (I know at least one. He is so sweet, sometimes.)

4. There are double, double agents. They are hidden in plane sight. That is a weird thing. It is enough to make Quantum Mechanics look easy. Yeah. I have met at least one. What an Asshole. Famous guy. You get to see him on TV regularly. He is one of the darlings of the Left. Double/Double. Asshole.


Yeah. Conspiracy Theories. Not my idea of a good time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy ... _knowledge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... operations

Do you have responsibilities? Are you responsible for the actions of the Agents of your Nation? The only agent that you have control over is yourself. If, you find a way to frame this planet as your home and all of its people as your family, then, you may be a good agent. And; If, you keep your head down and your heart light you can have a wonderful time.

Sourmilk; If, you are human, then, you are easily manipulated. The slippery slope. Remember? Humans! AHHH!

Hey! It's personal! And; It should be. The Golden Rule! Do not, even, wish for others what you would not wish for yourself.

Yeah. I did not want to know about the School of the Georgias. -Can't find a thing about it on the google machine.- I don't really want to know what those guys are doing in NV or NM or down in Fort Huachuca.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Huachuca.
Good thing too. Because, they are not going to tell me. They are not going to tell you either.
(To be fair, if I had to choose to hang with Army guys, then the guys at Fort Huachuca would be at the top of my list. The rank and file are fun guys and gals.)

I have been told stuff. I have read original policy documents. I am telling you right now to, Get off your high horse.

The original policy documents from 2004-2005 are SHIT. There was plenty of shit before. We got new and worse SHIT.

The US has become a terrifying bad guy. It is not you anymore than it is the everyday people of nations you are told are such a threat.
(Are you old enough to remember the French as enemies? Do you remember Freedom Fries? Some of the shit that does not work is funny. Just like in a Science Lab.)

Most people are attempting to live full lives and find meaning within the context of the world they live in.

Does the US teach people of other nations? Yes.
What does the US teach people of other nations? It is a long list, Sourmilk.

There are a few subjects that stand out in a crowd.

How to overcome cultural conditioning. (Proof-Killing Nuns was the final.)
How to overcome common human decency. (Gang rape- The final.)
The list goes on. Education happens inside the head.

Yeah. I sat through one class that was so creepy. I was sick to my stomach and I had to hide it. The class was designed to teach some basic field medicine. It did that. But; It did so much more. The instructors belittled any student that incorporated comfort measures or kindness into the tasks. How can we practice field medicine without kindness? Why would we?

I think that it is called torture. Torture falls into to catagories.
1. Physical
2. Psychological
Field medicine is the ripe with possibilities for the best of what we can be and for the worse of what we can be.

"The proper fruit of knowledge is action."

I was so embarassed for everyone concerned when Mr. Obama accused the men of the Congo of Rape. That was a finger that had three fingers pointing back at himself. (Shrug.) He did not know. He is smarter than Palin. But; He does not get to choose what he is told is important.

There is not one thing that you nor I can do about this shit. I have fallen ill. You stay well.

Mr. Obama does disappoint. Yet; When looked at through a filter that shows him and his wife and two little girls with that silly looking dog inside the cross hairs, then, I am not disappointed; I am understanding. Don't you feel compassion for him?

War. Why the fuck do we have to always be doing War?

Because; It is fun and a real money maker. ?

Why do people play Chess? Why do people watch football games? Same human shit.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby elasto » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:17 pm UTC

What the heck is the MO of a double double agent?
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Enokh » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:58 pm UTC

Well, if a double agent is someone who defects to the Enemy side without telling your employers, then I imagine a DoubleDouble agent would be someone who is ordered to act as if they were a double agent but in truth remain (on a deep level) loyal to the original employer.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Soralin » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:01 pm UTC

elasto wrote:What the heck is the MO of a double double agent?

Pretend to be working for the other side, when you're actually working for the people you're actually working for. Useful for passing along misinformation, and perhaps getting additional information about the other side.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:02 pm UTC

Soralin wrote:
elasto wrote:What the heck is the MO of a double double agent?

Pretend to be working for the other side, when you're actually working for the people you're actually working for. Useful for passing along misinformation, and perhaps getting additional information about the other side.


Or pretending to be a double-agent, but actually working for a third party entirely.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby addams » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:42 pm UTC

elasto wrote:What the heck is the MO of a double double agent?


Really? O.K.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_agent

There is your basic Double Agent.
Spoiler:
Double/Double? Fine. No wiki page for it.

Hey! They all come in loads of flavors.
Doubles can work for one, be a member of another and have strong loyalties to a third.

Double/ Doubles are the same kind of thing. O.K. I am making this up as I go along. I am using examples from what I thought was my real life.

Let us take a look at Mr. Barney Frank. Is he a change Agent? Well, Yes. We all are. Who does he work for? The US government.
His job is to serve the people.
Does he have any other loyalties? Who else pays him. What does he 'Really' do?
See? Our congress is full of Double Agents. Some are Double/Double.

I can think of no better example than Barney Frank. I did not know who he was when I met him. Just a guy. Remember Steve Jobs? He looked like a man.

So what is the MO of a Double/Double?
1. Stated and apparent tasks are right out front.
2. Some hidden agenda.
3. Another layer of important work that is in direct conflict to stated and apparent tasks that are secret from the first hidden agenda.

Frank is such a good example. I do not mean to pick on him. But; he is so easy. He is aggressive. He is an attention whore. He has all the good will toward his fellow man that the Grinch was famous for.
He is no way the worse of the worse. Congress is filled with these kinds of people. What makes Frank different is that he is smart enough to know what he is doing. It is like a wild and woolly chess game. And; He is winning.

He was so mean to me. It was confusing to me at the time. I am no longer confused. To shut me up was the stated goal of both sides.

He is Double/Double in my mind, because, he works so very well with people that he states are working against him and his noble causes. He lies. No big deal. I Love dogs and dogs lie, too.

Control of the conversation is very important. Make sure that the questions will control for the desired answers. Politics is dishonest. Umm. Am I the first person to type those words?

Politics is way harder than Science. It is Jr. High School girls with a more money than God.

Science is easy in comparison. There is honesty in Science. Reproducibility. Politics runs on the opposite.

"HERE! SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE AND NEVER WILL AGAIN! BECAUSE; I WILL PROTECT YOU!" Yeah. They will protect us from their summer places in the country.

I could go on and on. You know I can. What would be the point? Stop one and two will take its place. The big political media circus did not interest me. Still does not, that much.

I have had and am still having my real life, this bag of bones and my inner well being effected by political bull shit. So; Your internet conversations interest me, some.


This by enokh is a good working definition that is all academic; Like this shit is not real.
Just mental exercises.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:24 pm UTC

addams, I'm not sure I got the point of your rant. It didn't appear to point out how I was wrong, or even where I was wrong.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Роберт » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:21 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:addams, I'm not sure I got the point of your rant. It didn't appear to point out how I was wrong, or even where I was wrong.

ITT: Sourmilk explains how the only point of communication is to talk about how other people are wrong.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Enokh » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:58 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:addams, I'm not sure I got the point of your rant. It didn't appear to point out how I was wrong, or even where I was wrong.

ITT: Sourmilk explains how the only point of communication is to talk about how other people are wrong.


In all fairness, aadams said his rant was aimed at sourmilk, and since trying to figure out some of aadams' posts is like navigating an underwater rave-themed labyrinth whilst having a rather extreme case of synesthesia, interpreting that as "I'm ranting at sourmilk" doesn't seem out of the question.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Роберт » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:25 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:In all fairness, aadams said his rant was aimed at sourmilk, and since trying to figure out some of aadams' posts is like navigating an underwater rave-themed labyrinth whilst having a rather extreme case of synesthesia, interpreting that as "I'm ranting at sourmilk" doesn't seem out of the question.

Her rant was aimed at sourmilk, but to me that doesn't mean that she necessarily was trying to say that sourmilk was wrong. It sounds like you go to cool parties, though. Oh wait, you didn't say labyrinth-themed rave.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:48 pm UTC

That is the only kind of rave I would consider going to. Also, I expect a rant to be some kind of criticism, and honestly I just didn't get it. I have no idea what she was getting at.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Enokh » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:41 pm UTC

I never go to cool parties :cry:
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:46 pm UTC

Why would you want to?
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Enokh » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:14 pm UTC

Because they're COOL, obviously.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby Ghostbear » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:03 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:[...] and since trying to figure out some of aadams' posts is like navigating an underwater rave-themed labyrinth whilst having a rather extreme case of synesthesia, [...]

I don't have anywhere near that level of difficulty; I've actually found addams is usually quite understandable. You just need to take your time reading their posts. If you're just trying to gloss through them it won't work, but if you take your time you shouldn't have trouble.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby induction » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:15 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:... honestly I just didn't get it. I have no idea what she was getting at.


I assumed she was responding to statements like these:

...when the goal is, as a senior intelligence official puts it, "to affect Iranian psychology and morale," then the methods don't really become acceptable...
...I do have a problem when the goal or the means become non-military...
...if they have been engaged in attacks designed for the sole purpose of lowering morale / spreading terror, then they are pretty bad.


... by pointing out that this stuff has been pretty much SOP all over the world (including the US) throughout recorded history.

And ditto on what Ghostbear said.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:59 am UTC

I can't object to standard operating procedure? That's rantworthy?
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby MartianInvader » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:16 am UTC

I believe the criticism was that sourmilk said it was "okay" for us to be training these people as long as long as we're only telling them to do certain things. The point being, we've got no fucking hope of fully controlling what they end up doing with that training.

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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:25 am UTC

I didn't say that, at least not intentionally. It's only okay for us to be training the people so long as they're only doing certain things. If they're committing acts of terror whether or not we tell them to, I don't think it's moral to fund them.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby BoomFrog » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:39 am UTC

The problem there being that you train them first and THEN you find out if the commit acts of terror later. Doesn't really work to define an action as moral by a criteria that can never be measured when your deciding to commit that act.
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Re: US Trained Anti-Iran Terrorists in 2005 and Beyond

Postby sourmìlk » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:46 am UTC

Yeah, you'd have to provide some incentive to get them not to commit terrorism and immediately defund them if they do. I get that this isn't clean and cut and dry.
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