Snark wrote:Night 1 - Mafia role cop finds the town cop, Town cop cops a townie
Day 2 - Nothing interesting happens
Night 2 - Mafia kills the cop
Day 3 - Mafia falseclaims cop
Night 1 - Mafia role cop finds the cop and kills the cop
Day 2 or 3 - Mafia falseclaims cop
Day ? - Mafia falseclaims cop (and we happen to be in a game setup without a cop which has a 50% chance)
According to your statement, we'd be nuts to lynch the false-claimer without solid evidence. With no way of obtaining solid evidence in any of the cases above, mafia wins.
In this game setup, it's not nuts to lynch someone claiming a town power role.
Firstly, the underlined can't happen if my understanding of role cop is correct. Like any investigative role, the result would be given once the night is over, not before scum are required to submit their NK.
In terms of "solid evidence" - keep in mind that someone appearing scummy is in fact evidence against their town claim. However, on D1 (and quite often on later days depending on how close to Mylo/Lylo we are), lynches can be fairly weak, or a day has dragged on so long that you get to the point of lynching just for info. Lynching a claimed PR in these situations is terrible. There's a sliding scale in terms of how good lynches are for town, and many points of that scale say "don't lynch the PR"
Also, anybody who claims doesn't immediately get a free pass for the rest of the game. Other than a confirmed cop RESULT of town, nobody should ever be able to do anything that has you 100% convinced they're town. It just means going through with the lynch at that time is more often than not the wrong play.
KrO2 wrote:Question for Chickenfish: When we have someone at one vote to lynch and they claim a power role, what do you say we should do? This will happen; it's almost certain. We either lynch them or don't, either one seems pretty questionable. Keep in mind that there's an even chance that no counterclaim is even possible, and depending on the circumstances it might be a bad idea for the real player to call them on it even if it is possible. You said a claim should be tested, but how do you test something like that? Suppose they claim anything that isn't cop; that one does seem testable. Also, Snark, what's your answer to this?
Before day 3 it's tough. The only test you can really employ is seeing if they live through the night, and then give them another day worth of talking to convince you. In the case of the cop - that gives them one more investigation result to share on the day after if they for some reason are still appearing scummy. A claimed doctor/jailer is definitely harder, but asking them to list their previous targets and why they targeted them is a good way to tell whether someone's being genuine or not.
After N2, there's a chance doc/jailer has had some success that they can share, acting as a cop to clear the towny they saved (or potentially RBed scum in the case of jailer... but that specific discussion isn't worth getting into until the time comes). After N2 with a cop, if they've only got towny results, giving them another night to attempt to investigate but probably die is all you can do. But once again if there's a legitimate case against them or they just seem like the most strategic lynch comes into it.
Once again, claim =/= free pass. If we can afford it though, giving them another night worth of action and the following day for discussion need to happen.
matt96 wrote:How is a cop claim testable, the only thing that could be tested for is if it is a vanilla town false claiming, as based on my read though of the rules, the only town cop power is an alignment cop, and as there are no independents or third party, Mafia already know everyone's alignments by process of elimination, how did you think testing a cop claim would work?
Well yeah, a cop claim is only testable if they've gotten a scum result. If it's too early for that, mafia probably can't risk not killing just for the sake of wine, and will NK them anyway.
KrO2 wrote:It's not possible to test a cop-claim.
Snark wrote:2. have some more information from prior days to prove their story.
Cool. Taking a shot at me/trying to get town to be happy to lynch cop. Complete contradiction to your initial statement once the attempt at towny-talk comes around.
Snark wrote:Like MN has said at least twice now, people who are going to be lynched, are being lynched because they've been acting scummy. An un-counter-claimed power claim doesn't prove anything.
1) Where did he say this?
2) Opinions of your own would be appreciated.
3) Someone has to have been acting pretty damn scummy for me to be happy risking lynching cop. Sure, that level of scum exists, but rarely are lynches on the first few days of that level.
Snark wrote:Agreed. And if they claimed doctor and had successfully targeted someone, they can say who they protected to see if they turn up town later. And if they claim bodyguard and think they prevented a kill, they should claim who they targeted the night that a kill didn't go through.
For clarification - "bodyguard" = "jailer"?
But yeah, power claims can be tested and scrutinised. As I said, and as you said the opposite.
Mostlynormal wrote:Well, it just never quite sits right with me. Maybe in this case it's unfair to Snark, considering he's the one under attack by you in the first place. But in general it makes me feel like my vote is getting hijacked and is going to be interpreted as something different than I meant it. So maybe in this case I reacted too quickly. Sorry
(sorry for the inaccurate chronology... made sense to address posts in this order by topic)
Snark attacking me because I'm attacking him is as scummy as it gets. It's completely unproductive to OMGUS.
As for the rest of it - as I said, there's no possibility of me getting lynched from that vote, unless scum want to just give the game away.. If as the day goes one everyone decides I'm the best lynch, you can either say "I don't agree, here's why" or "my vote's staying on, here's why". If your vote was for pressure, Snark's vote was a good thing for you.
Implying Snark outwardly admitting his vote was OMGUS is ok, then acting overly concerned about how your vote will be perceived... If Snark ever flips scum everyone should remember this.
Mostlynormal wrote:What ocurred to me was if the cop had a scum result they could claim it and we could test by lynching their scum result first, then the claimed cop if they lied. But since a cop should probably claim such a result first thing anyway (right? We ought to be clear on this before we go into night), a cop that claims to have a scum result that they just happened not to share yet is probably scum grasping at straws.
I almost began to type more of a rant about how claiming that would be ridic, but in this setup maybe not. 1-for-1ing at worst (claim cop with scum hit and pray for a doc role) with such a small scum population may not be too bad, especially with a role cop on the scum side who may find and kill cop anyway. Definitely needs more discussion I think.