Game of Throngs

[CorruptUser]

Book 5 spoiler

Spoiler:

But near the end of book 5, a person mentions that Ned had taken a child from a fisherman's daughter when trying to cross during the war.

[JudeMorrigan]

Even more aDwD spoilers:

(Continuing book 5 spoilerificness)

Spoiler:

Yeah, that's true. It's possible this is yet another misinterpretation of prophecy on her part: The person with the sword and the person from Dragonstone who will bring back dragons themselves are not in fact the same. She fairly reasonably thought both might be Stannis, but with him (likely) now dead, she might realize that not only was he neither of those things, but nor was any single individual both of them. And his being another son of Rhaegar gives him (almost -- he is still a bastard after all) equal claim to the throne and Dany's hand as Quentyn.

Spoiler:

Jon's death scene in aDwD fufills too much of the prophecy concerning Azor Ahai to be entirely coincidental. That is not, of course, to say that it couldn't be a red herring. See:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/to ... i-and-jon/

[CorruptUser]

Major book 5 spoiler

Spoiler:

Are we even entirely sure Jon is dead? Granted that he was starting to become a Mary Sue so it wouldn't be too terrible if he died, but so many characters have seemingly died but come back that I don't assume they are dead unless it's proven. Gregor Clegane is not quite dead, Catelyn Stark is undead, Brienne is heavily scarred but alive, Sandor Clegane is possibly living as a monk, Theon looked like he was about to die but is just mutilated...

Just as well. I had thought that the only characters that GRRM wouldn't kill were Tyrion, Jon, and Dany. At least not till the very end. Though he could kill off Tyrion before even revealing where whores go, but that would just be cruel to his fans.

[Ulc]

Spoiler:

Are we even entirely sure Jon is dead? Granted that he was starting to become a Mary Sue so it wouldn't be too terrible if he died, but so many characters have seemingly died but come back that I don't assume they are dead unless it's proven. Gregor Clegane is not quite dead, Catelyn Stark is undead, Brienne is heavily scarred but alive, Sandor Clegane is possibly living as a monk, Theon looked like he was about to die but is just mutilated...

Just as well. I had thought that the only characters that GRRM wouldn't kill were Tyrion, Jon, and Dany. At least not till the very end. Though he could kill off Tyrion before even revealing where whores go, but that would just be cruel to his fans.

Book 5 spoilers

Spoiler:

We're certainly not. In general, the way it works seems to be that unless we first hand see them being dead, they aren't quite a goner yet. And Jons 'death' scene is very specifically not something that are certain to kill him, he goes down and everything goes black, but we don't see him dead.

Of course, it is GRRM we're talking about here, he might be dead, but in general, important characters seems to die very definitively, or not really be dead at all.

[Larry]

Goddammit guys, I'm waiting to start book 4. Wanna click the spoilers but not sure...

[SlyReaper]

Wouldn't it be an idea to have one thread for the books and another for the TV series? That way there's no ambiguity about whether it's safe to click a spoiler or not.

[quantumcat42]

Wouldn't it be an idea to have one thread for the books and another for the TV series? That way there's no ambiguity about whether it's safe to click a spoiler or not.

That's what they do on some other boards, but it often ends up with arguments about how to discuss changes between the books and the show -- a good number of people are reading the books along with the show, so they don't want to venture into the late-book spoilers of the book thread, but then the TV show thread gets pissed off when people bring up points from the books there. Personally, I think clearly labeling your spoilers should be sufficient for us all to cohabitate a single thread.

(Massive book 12 spoilers)

Spoiler:

Ned re-kills Zombie-Drogo! With Rosebud!

[pseudoidiot]

Goddammit guys, I'm waiting to start book 4. Wanna click the spoilers but not sure...

Don't. There's definitely some book 5 spoilers in some of those.

[gmalivuk]

There is a book thread, which I expect to become very active again when the next book comes out and/or when discussion of this particular season of the series dies down after it ends. But since the show is trying to follow the books pretty closely, and thus is very likely to come to the same results as the books, with the same people living and dying (at least among major characters), the same wars happening, and so on, it makes sense to use book knowledge to bolster the series discussion.

[SlyReaper]

If there's a separate thread for the books, shouldn't this one be called Game Of Thrones?

[Yakk]

I've been marking my book spoilers separately from the TV show spoilers.

Others have not. Probably because they hate you. In particular, CorruptUser and Ulc -- bad posters, no cookie.

Other than Ulc and CorruptUser, I think all book level spoilers are marked in-post (someone might respond to a book-spoiled message that is marked, with an unmarked spoiler at the same level).

[gmalivuk]

And I think that beyond distinguishing between whether information is from an already-aired episode or a book that hasn't yet made it onto TV, it's not really possible to separate the two, especially when speculating about things that might be. Because a lot of things that still only "might be" from the perspective of the TV series either definitely are or definitely aren't from the perspective of the books. And so it very likely will be the same when the TV show gets to that point.

[Felstaff]

I've been marking my book spoilers separately from the TV show spoilers.

Others have not. Probably because they hate you. In particular, CorruptUser and Ulc -- bad posters, no cookie.

yeah! Godfuckingdammit. Unlabeled Book 5 spoilers when the TV show (which is what the thread is about) is only as far as book 2? Assholes!

[Dark567]

I've been marking my book spoilers separately from the TV show spoilers.

Others have not. Probably because they hate you. In particular, CorruptUser and Ulc -- bad posters, no cookie.

yeah! Godfuckingdammit. Unlabeled Book 5 spoilers when the TV show (which is what the thread is about) is only as far as book 2? Assholes!

AV Club has decided to make two TV show threads, one for people who have read the books, and one for those that haven't. Maybe worth considering as an experiment?

[Diadem]

Nah, people should just learn how to use spoiler tags.

Also, re: New thread title: Wouldn't 'game of thongs' be more appropriate? Given the high level of sexposition?

[pseudoidiot]

Throng of Thongs

[CorruptUser]

I've been marking my book spoilers separately from the TV show spoilers.

Others have not. Probably because they hate you. In particular, CorruptUser and Ulc -- bad posters, no cookie.

Other than Ulc and CorruptUser, I think all book level spoilers are marked in-post (someone might respond to a book-spoiled message that is marked, with an unmarked spoiler at the same level).

Alright, I added in more warnings than just the spoiler. Now about that cookie...

[pseudoidiot]

About the cookie.

Spoiler:

I ate it.

[mayhaps]

episode 2

Spoiler:

did Stannis have sex with Melisandre in the book? I might be super forgetful about this, but... I thought one of his main character traits was that he was 100% faithful to his wife (unlike Robert) even if their marriage bed was cold.

I feel like the TV show is really struggling to introduce new characters and keep the plot moving forward. I thought it was just episode 1, but it seems like they're making odd choices. for instance, is the bit with Salladhor Saan really necessary? I actually fell asleep for part of the episode...

thoughts?

[LaserGuy]

episode 2

Spoiler:

did Stannis have sex with Melisandre in the book? I might be super forgetful about this, but... I thought one of his main character traits was that he was 100% faithful to his wife (unlike Robert) even if their marriage bed was cold.

Bookish spoiler.

Spoiler:

It's alluded to, I believe. I think it may be required for her some of her shadow magic.

[edit]I think the "son" she gives birth to is the creature that kills Renly.

This episode was freaking brilliant, pretty much from start to finish.

[Ulc]

episode 2

Spoiler:

did Stannis have sex with Melisandre in the book? I might be super forgetful about this, but... I thought one of his main character traits was that he was 100% faithful to his wife (unlike Robert) even if their marriage bed was cold.

Book.. 3-4 spoilers inside this

Spoiler:

Yes. It's pretty clearly implied that he did, she even mentions at some point later in the series that she can't make another shadow with Stannis - she makes it sound like it's draining the co-creator quite a lot.

IIRC the Onion knight gets really freaked out when he learns that.

[SlyReaper]

Today I Learned: Dire Wolves were an actual thing.

[Diadem]

Of course they are. Just like stags, lions or dragons. GRRM wouldn't lie!

[SecondTalon]

I've been marking my book spoilers separately from the TV show spoilers.

Others have not. Probably because they hate you. In particular, CorruptUser and Ulc -- bad posters, no cookie.

Other than Ulc and CorruptUser, I think all book level spoilers are marked in-post (someone might respond to a book-spoiled message that is marked, with an unmarked spoiler at the same level).

Hey, people mind REPORTING these things sometime?

[ArgonV]

Spoiler:

'I always hated crossbows. Take too long to load!'
Epic last words, Yoren

Also Tyrion's three-way was pretty bad ass as well.

And Renly's wife knows he's gay and doesn't mind... Another intrigue brewing?

[Lucrece]

Spoiler:

Margaery is stupidly clever, expect her to be a better Cersei, sans the wanton cruelty and military incompetence.

Yay, Brienne! She's the fucking shit.

I'll miss you, Yoren. At least you took out a crapload of men on your way out.

I also love Varys, the only one gracious enough in Tyrion's power play.

[Dream]

Spoiler:

And Renly's wife knows he's gay and doesn't mind... Another intrigue brewing?

Spoiler:

I imagine it's an arranged marriage, and so she's hardly expecting much in the way of intimacy. And it wouldn't have taken long for her to work out that the rumours were true, considering it seemed to be fairly common knowledge in King's Landing in Season One. Also, she's clearly just after a royal child to advance herself.

[Diadem]

Spoiler:

And Renly's wife knows he's gay and doesn't mind... Another intrigue brewing?

Spoiler:

I imagine it's an arranged marriage, and so she's hardly expecting much in the way of intimacy. And it wouldn't have taken long for her to work out that the rumours were true, considering it seemed to be fairly common knowledge in King's Landing in Season One. Also, she's clearly just after a royal child to advance herself.

Spoiler:

Yeah, it's a pretty good arrangement for her. It's an arranged marriage anyway, so she couldn't expect much love in the first place. But she gets a lot of power out of the marriage. And not just that, he's gracious and likeable enough, she could do a lot worse, and she's clearly the smarter and more ambitious of the two. So even within the marriage she'll be the one pulling the strings. It's a pretty good arrangement for her. I even image that he won't object to her finding other men to take care of her more intimate needs. At long as she gives him a boy first, of course.

[Woopate]

Spoiler:

I really liked how they did Tyrion's mole hunt. Though Littlefinger's reaction when he found out he'd been manipulated wasn't what I expected. Angrier than in my head.

[Adacore]

Spoiler:

I really liked how they did Tyrion's mole hunt. Though Littlefinger's reaction when he found out he'd been manipulated wasn't what I expected. Angrier than in my head.

Minor book 2 spoilers included:

Spoiler:

Yeah, that was good. And Littlefinger's reaction was pretty much exactly how I imagined it from the books, actually.

There were a lot of changes from / additions to the book in this episode, relative to the others (so far):

- Theon writing, then burning the letter to Robb was new, wasn't it? They seem to be making Theon a more sympathetic, likeable character than he ever was in the books.
- Shae becoming Sansa's handmaid was definitely a change. I guess I can see why they did it, but me and the one other person in my Game of Thrones group who's read the books gave each other serious wtf looks when that happened.
- Did Sam give Craster's daughter/wife that thimble in the book? I don't remember that, but I feel like it might've happened.
- Arya's scene in this episode was about 4 different Arya chapters compounded into one. It worked fine, I suppose, but I wouldn't have been unhappy to see it more fleshed out.
- The Renly / Loras / Margaery stuff was obviously all new, but I thought it worked really well. I'm only about 20% of the way through reading book 3, but I was excited to see Margaery's development as a character already, and that scene just got me even more interested in her.

Also, since there wasn't a Dany scene, they missed out on the cool transition between Maester Luwin telling Bran that his wolf dreams, magic, giants, &c. were no more real than dragons, then cut straight to Dany with her dragons, which I think George RR Martin did in the book.

I liked that episode, anyway - getting excited for the cool stuff that's going to start coming in the second half of the season.

[ArgonV]

Spoiler:

Maester Luwin telling Bran that his wolf dreams, magic, giants, &c. were no more real than dragons, then cut straight to Dany with her dragons, which I think George RR Martin did in the book.

Yeah, that's what I expected to happen

[Dream]

Spoiler:

I really liked how they did Tyrion's mole hunt. Though Littlefinger's reaction when he found out he'd been manipulated wasn't what I expected. Angrier than in my head.

Spoiler:

I actually thought that was clumsy and obvious, and Baylish's reaction just made him look petty and childish. I mean, surely Tyrion didn't have to labour the "Don't Tell The Queen" bit? And it didn't actually weed out whether Baylish or Varys were spying for the Queen, but also playing their own game that might have made them keep quiet. Baylish's carrot of a huge estate, another title and a grand castle surely meant that Tyrion could never be sure if he hadn't bought him away from the Queen just this one time. Not to mention the possibility of any pair of his marks working out the ruse, and playing him right back, using the Queen's belief in the scheme to get at him. I mean, what if all three spoke to the Queen, and between them they all worked it all out? Tyrion would surely end up in a lot of trouble then, right?

[LaserGuy]

Spoiler:

I really liked how they did Tyrion's mole hunt. Though Littlefinger's reaction when he found out he'd been manipulated wasn't what I expected. Angrier than in my head.

Spoiler:

I actually thought that was clumsy and obvious, and Baylish's reaction just made him look petty and childish. I mean, surely Tyrion didn't have to labour the "Don't Tell The Queen" bit? And it didn't actually weed out whether Baylish or Varys were spying for the Queen, but also playing their own game that might have made them keep quiet. Baylish's carrot of a huge estate, another title and a grand castle surely meant that Tyrion could never be sure if he hadn't bought him away from the Queen just this one time. Not to mention the possibility of any pair of his marks working out the ruse, and playing him right back, using the Queen's belief in the scheme to get at him. I mean, what if all three spoke to the Queen, and between them they all worked it all out? Tyrion would surely end up in a lot of trouble then, right?

Book spoiler, but related only to this scene:

Spoiler:

I think this was the series taking something that was handled more subtly in the book and making it pretty stupidly obvious. In the book, he had Pycelle send two letters to Dorne (to make sure it arrives, he said), never mentioning what the contents were, nor saying that he shouldn't tell the queen, but simply saying that it was urgent and discreet, and reasoning (correctly) that the Maester would pocket one of the letters to read before sending it off. His pitch to Littlefinger is pretty much the same. I think he does tell him that it would cause problems for Cersei to find out. Varys approaches him later, having spied on both conversations, and believing (incorrectly) that he was shipping Prince Tommen to Dorne and Mycella to the Eyrie, when in fact Tyrion did tell both Littlefinger and the Dornish that he'd be wedding Mycella. I don't believe Tyrion explicitly tells Varys not to tell the Queen, although it's pretty obvious from context that Tyrion would be in big trouble if he did.

You're right, there are a variety of situations under which this could have failed. It's essentially a Batman Gambit (tvtropes). It only works because the marks have no reason to suspect a trap and behave in ways that would seem perfectly reasonable to them. Even in the book, I think the trap could only catch Varys or Pycelle (Littlefinger might well be willing to keep his mouth shut regardless), and if both Varys and Pycelle were spying for the Queen, it would only catch Varys. Likewise, if Varys and Littlefinger were working together, it would only catch Varys.

[Diadem]

Spoiler:

I really liked how they did Tyrion's mole hunt. Though Littlefinger's reaction when he found out he'd been manipulated wasn't what I expected. Angrier than in my head.

Spoiler:

I actually thought that was clumsy and obvious, and Baylish's reaction just made him look petty and childish. I mean, surely Tyrion didn't have to labour the "Don't Tell The Queen" bit? And it didn't actually weed out whether Baylish or Varys were spying for the Queen, but also playing their own game that might have made them keep quiet. Baylish's carrot of a huge estate, another title and a grand castle surely meant that Tyrion could never be sure if he hadn't bought him away from the Queen just this one time. Not to mention the possibility of any pair of his marks working out the ruse, and playing him right back, using the Queen's belief in the scheme to get at him. I mean, what if all three spoke to the Queen, and between them they all worked it all out? Tyrion would surely end up in a lot of trouble then, right?

Book spoiler, but related only to this scene:

Spoiler:

I think this was the series taking something that was handled more subtly in the book and making it pretty stupidly obvious. In the book, he had Pycelle send two letters to Dorne (to make sure it arrives, he said), never mentioning what the contents were, nor saying that he shouldn't tell the queen, but simply saying that it was urgent and discreet, and reasoning (correctly) that the Maester would pocket one of the letters to read before sending it off. His pitch to Littlefinger is pretty much the same. I think he does tell him that it would cause problems for Cersei to find out. Varys approaches him later, having spied on both conversations, and believing (incorrectly) that he was shipping Prince Tommen to Dorne and Mycella to the Eyrie, when in fact Tyrion did tell both Littlefinger and the Dornish that he'd be wedding Mycella. I don't believe Tyrion explicitly tells Varys not to tell the Queen, although it's pretty obvious from context that Tyrion would be in big trouble if he did.

You're right, there are a variety of situations under which this could have failed. It's essentially a Batman Gambit (tvtropes). It only works because the marks have no reason to suspect a trap and behave in ways that would seem perfectly reasonable to them. Even in the book, I think the trap could only catch Varys or Pycelle (Littlefinger might well be willing to keep his mouth shut regardless), and if both Varys and Pycelle were spying for the Queen, it would only catch Varys. Likewise, if Varys and Littlefinger were working together, it would only catch Varys.

My biggest problem with the version used in the tv series:

Spoiler:

It can only work if only one of them is working for the queen? That's fine in situations where you should normally be able to trust everybody, and you want to flush out a traitor. But in this case, it's clear that all 3 are pretty much selfish bastards. And Tyrion knows this. The odds of several of them reporting to the queen - if it serves their own interests, are pretty high. But he never seems to have considered that. What happens if two of them tell the queen? She will realize something is up, and not confront Tyrion at all, or only confront him about one of them. Even worse, she might lean on the third one to figure out what story he got, and feed Tyrion that one, leading him to the exact wrong conclusion. It's a recipe for disaster.

[Yakk]

Spoiler:

Tyrion might be expecting the Queen to come at him raging when she finds out. And the odds that two of them manage to get to her while she is raging after the first being low enough to be worth the risk.

In addition, it at least informs the other two parties that he is willing to feed them false information. So sharing that false information with the Queen might paint them as the source of it... This will reduce the effectiveness of "true" information that they manage to get out of him, even if they are on the side of the Queen.

Plus, by destroying one of them for conspiring against him in a minor way, he also puts the others on notice. He destroyed the captain of the city watch because the captain did something that the Queen told him to do -- then destroyed a member of the council for betraying him to the Queen. At this point, it should be obvious that he's at least a dangerous man to cross -- instead of being "the queens little brother" in two ways, he's a man to fear. He could easily have been reduced to an unimportant court fool by the Queen.

Power exists when people get used to thinking you have Power. If you don't exercise Power, you don't have it. He's exercising Power against the Queen's minions, and thus proving he has it, which strengthens him and weakens the Queen. And he doesn't think that the Queen should have power.

[maybeagnostic]

Spoiler:

It can only work if only one of them is working for the queen? That's fine in situations where you should normally be able to trust everybody, and you want to flush out a traitor. But in this case, it's clear that all 3 are pretty much selfish bastards. And Tyrion knows this. The odds of several of them reporting to the queen - if it serves their own interests, are pretty high. But he never seems to have considered that. What happens if two of them tell the queen? She will realize something is up, and not confront Tyrion at all, or only confront him about one of them. Even worse, she might lean on the third one to figure out what story he got, and feed Tyrion that one, leading him to the exact wrong conclusion. It's a recipe for disaster.

Spoiler:

I think this kind of misses the point- Tyrion knows all three of them are perfectly capable of and willing to betray him. This scheme is used more to distinguish who immediately reports to Cersei (Pycelle) and who would be willing to hold information back and use it for their own gain (Varys and Littlefinger). He can't trust Varys and Littlefinger but now he knows they will only betray him if it is in their best interest.

That said, the book had him use a more nuanced approach- he tells Littlefinger that he will send Myrcella to the Vale and Pycelle that he will send Tommen to Dorne. Varys actually hears both stories (and gets some extra bit of information I can't remember at the moment). Then he can know whether Littlefinger, Pycelle, Littlefinger+Pycelle, or Varys betrayed his 'confidence.' He can't really distinguish between Varys betraying him or all three doing it but he doesn't have enough power to get rid of all three anyway (effectively destroy the Small Council because only he and Cersei would be left) and he really only needs to identify one to make an example of.

The repeated 'Don't tell the Queen' were played a little sarcastically and were more for the audience's benefit anyway- I know a few people who are following the series without having read the books and they are really not familiar with the minor characters. This intrigue needs to be spelled out because many people have no idea what the Small Council is, let alone that someone on it betrayed some dead guy in S1E1.

[johnie104]

Spoiler:

While the ruse of Tyrion was less subtle, it really worked in this episode. While reading the book I was a little confused about what was going on, because IIRC, Tyrion talked to the 3 characters in different chapters making it less obvious he's trying to trap them. At least I was a little confused.

On a different note: Isn't anyone a bit weirded out by the fact that Myrcella doesn't mind having a threesome with her husband and brother. I mean, she comes over as a little more... innocent in the book (probably because she is only 15 in it).

And finally: I'm glad they decided to make Yoren such an obvious bad-ass. It makes the episode a little more light-hearted. I also think the shortening of the Arya chapters is a good thing. It allows other (minor) characters to be more fleshed out.

[maybeagnostic]

Spoiler:

On a different note: Isn't anyone a bit weirded out by the fact that Myrcella doesn't mind having a threesome with her husband and brother. I mean, she comes over as a little more... innocent in the book (probably because she is only 15 in it).

Spoiler:

Uh, Myrcella is 12 and not yet married. Margaery Tyrell on the other hand... it was a little surprising to see her be so up front about it but I like having her character be a little more fleshed out.
Spoiler from the third book:
She is left as a bit of a mystery in the books because she never gets a PoV. The jokes about her being a virgin after three marriages and hints that she is taking lovers while married to Tommen are much less subtle than the hints about Renly and Loras though. The show decided to be a lot more explicit about the Tyrells in general.

[Diadem]

The above is definitely a very major later-book spoiler. So take care in reading it. Also, please properly mark your spoilers next time maybeagnostic! In fact edit your post and do it now.

[maybeagnostic]

Edited.

I assumed spoilers are used for book stuff. Are we also putting spoilers for events from the show at this point?