Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

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Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:18 pm UTC

The BBC Reports:

Spoiler:
Technology giant Apple and major book publishers are being sued by the US Department of Justice over the pricing of e-books.

The US accuses Apple and Hachette, HarperCollins, Macmillan, Simon and Schuster and Penguin of colluding over the prices of e-books they sell.

This lawsuit is over the firms' move to the agency model where publishers rather than sellers set prices.

But Hachette, HarperCollins and Simon and Schuster have already settled.

The case will proceed against Apple, Macmillan and Penguin "for conspiring to end e-book retailers' freedom to compete on price", the Justice Department said.

"As a result of this alleged conspiracy, we believe that consumers paid millions of dollars more for some of the most popular titles," Attorney General Eric Holder said.
'Effectuate their conspiracy'
Continue reading the main story
Read the complaint

PDF download US vs Apple and publishers[1.36MB]

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Download the reader here

"To effectuate their conspiracy, the publisher defendants teamed up with defendant Apple, which shared the same goal of restraining retail price competition in the sale of e-books," according to papers filed in New York's Southern District court on Wednesday morning.

"Apple facilitated the publisher defendants' collective effort to end retail price competition by coordinating their transition to an agency model across all retailers."

Apple, which sells books through its iBooks platform on the iPad and iPhone, declined to comment.

Meanwhile, the European Commission has also been probing e-book price fixing. Apple, Hachette, HarperCollins, Macmillan and Simon and Schuster have now made proposals to end it.

"The European Commission has received proposals of possible commitments from Apple and four international publishers," said the EU's competition commissioner Joaquin Almunia.

"I welcome the fact that these five companies are making proposals to reach an early resolution of the case, so promptly after we opened proceedings in December 2011," he added.
Agency versus wholesale

Electronic books are sold according to a different formula from that governing the sales of physical books.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

Given the situation that existed, what was best for us was to do this aikido move and end up with the agency model”

Steve Jobs Apple founder, as quoted by Walter Isaacson

For most physical books publishers set a wholesale price, often about half the cover price, and then let a retailer decide how much they actually want to charge for the title.

This model was initially adopted for e-books but has since been changed for what is known as an agency model.

Under this scheme, publishers set the price of a book and the agent selling it gets a 30% cut. The agency model was adopted by publishers largely at the prompting of the late Steve Jobs.

The shift to agency pricing was also seen as a protective measure to head off attempts by Amazon to corner the market in e-books. It had been aggressively cutting prices to win customers over to its Kindle e-book reader.

Amazon once tried to apply the wholesale model on book publishers - by selling all books at $9.99 - but was rebuffed by the publishers.

In the complaint, the Justice Department said that Amazon "capitulated" when publishers and Apple teamed up to offer e-books on agency terms.

The retailer faced the prospect of having fewer books on its Kindle platform if it did not agree to publishers' terms.

Apple founder Steve Jobs described the strategy as an "aikido move" according to a biography published after his death.

"We were not the first people in the books business," Mr Jobs told his biographer, Walter Isaacson, in the book.

"Given the situation that existed, what was best for us was to do this aikido move and end up with the agency model. And we pulled it off."

The lawsuit comes a day after Apple surpassed $600bn (£379bn) in value, affirming its position as the world's most valuable firm.


tl;dr: The problem basically seems to be that the publishers entered an agreement with Apple where they would select the wholesale price of an ebook, and then Apple would just get a cut of the wholesale price (rather than the traditional model, where the retailer simply marks up the wholesale price by whatever amount they would like). As best as I can figure, they then tried to force other retailers (notably Amazon) to adopt this scheme, thereby removing price discrimination as a possible way for ebook retailers to compete.

Publishers Hachette, HarperCollins and Simon and Schuster have already settled out of court. The suit will continue against Apple, Macmillan and Penguin.

[edit]Added the link to the original article.
Last edited by LaserGuy on Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:27 pm UTC

the agent selling it gets a 30% cut


So this is why Apple can't manufacture in America!
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Arrian » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:27 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:tl;dr: The problem basically seems to be that the publishers entered an agreement with Apple where they would select the wholesale price of an ebook, and then Apple would just get a cut of the wholesale price (rather than the traditional model, where the retailer simply marks up the wholesale price by whatever amount they would like). As best as I can figure, they then tried to force other retailers (notably Amazon) to adopt this scheme, thereby removing price discrimination as a possible way for ebook retailers to compete.

Publishers Hachette, HarperCollins and Simon and Schuster have already settled out of court. The suit will continue against Apple, Macmillan and Penguin.


There are actually a few things going on:

1.) The agency model when Apple gets a fraction of the revenue and the publisher sets the price.
- This in itself isn't anti competetive, it's a perfectly legal and reasonable pricing model.

2.) Retail Price Maintenance which is a contract between the publishers and Apple that guarantees nobody will sell for a lower price than Apple.
- This isn't particularly grievous, either. It's possible to use this model for anticompetetive practices, but it's also possible that this is an efficient pricing system. (For example, a lot of manufacturers who do both wholesale and direct retail sales will only sell their product wholesale to retailers who won't sell for a lower price than the manufacturer's own retail prices.) The US no longer presumes price maintenance is a monopolistic practice and the government has to prove that its effect was anticompetetive in order to win a case against a company for this. Given the state of the ebook market, it's entirely possible that this is _not_ monopolistic behavior. See here for a bunch of information from law and econ profs about retail price maintenance.

3.) The actual case is about collusion between Apple and various publishers to set coordinated prices. RPM could be the method, but not the crime itself. And if there was collusion, it's possible that it was Apple acting as a hub and negotiating deals with the publishers independently rather than the publishers colluding directly with each other. I don't know antitrust law well enough to guess at the implications of that.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:36 pm UTC

Arrian wrote:3.) The actual case is about collusion between Apple and various publishers to set coordinated prices. RPM could be the method, but not the crime itself. And if there was collusion, it's possible that it was Apple acting as a hub and negotiating deals with the publishers independently rather than the publishers colluding directly with each other. I don't know antitrust law well enough to guess at the implications of that.


The problem is not that Apple itself is using the agency model. The problem is that once the deal was done with Apple, the publishers then demanded that everybody else adopt the same model, and raised the wholesale prices on ebooks as well. If they refused, the publishers would just only sell to Apple. The text of the complaint is here.

From section 8:
[quote]After executing the Apple Agency Agreements, the Publisher Defendants all then quickly acted to complete the scheme by imposing agency agreements on all of their other retailers. As a direct result, those retailers lost their ability to compete on price [...] Once in control of retail prices, the Publisher Defendants limited retail price competition among themselves. [...]Other price and non-price competition among e-book publishers and among e-book retailers also was unlawfully eliminated to the detriment of U.S. consumers.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Chen » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:38 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:The problem is not that Apple itself is using the agency model. The problem is that once the deal was done with Apple, the publishers then demanded that everybody else adopt the same model, and raised the wholesale prices on ebooks as well. If they refused, the publishers would just only sell to Apple. The text of the complaint is here.

From section 8:
After executing the Apple Agency Agreements, the Publisher Defendants all then quickly acted to complete the scheme by imposing agency agreements on all of their other retailers. As a direct result, those retailers lost their ability to compete on price [...] Once in control of retail prices, the Publisher Defendants limited retail price competition among themselves. [...]Other price and non-price competition among e-book publishers and among e-book retailers also was unlawfully eliminated to the detriment of U.S. consumers.


Again the only illegal part here was the "Publisher Defendants limited retail price competition among themselves" part. I don't see the inherent problem with a retailer going to a particular pricing model and a wholesaler only selling to people with said model (which is beneficial to them).
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby AvatarIII » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:11 pm UTC

Pretty much related.

Cut in E-Book Pricing by Amazon Is Set to Shake Rivals

The government’s decision to pursue major publishers on antitrust charges has put the Internet retailer Amazon in a powerful position: the nation’s largest bookseller may now get to decide how much an e-book will cost, and the book world is quaking over the potential consequences.

As soon as the Department of Justice announced Wednesday that it was suing five major publishers and Apple on price-fixing charges, and simultaneously settling with three of them, Amazon announced plans to push down prices on e-books. The price of some major titles could fall to $9.99 or less from $14.99, saving voracious readers a bundle. ...

Spoiler:
But publishers and booksellers argue that any victory for consumers will be short-lived, and that the ultimate effect of the antitrust suit will be to exchange a perceived monopoly for a real one. Amazon, already the dominant force in the industry, will hold all the cards.

“Amazon must be unbelievably happy today,” said Michael Norris, a book publishing analyst with Simba Information. “Had they been puppeteering this whole play, it could not have worked out better for them.”

The government said the five publishers colluded with Apple in secret to develop a new policy that let them set their own retail prices, and then sought to hide their discussions.

After that deal was in place in 2010, the government said, prices jumped everywhere because under the agreement, no bookseller could undercut Apple.

HarperCollins, Hachette and Simon & Schuster settled the charges Wednesday, leaving the other two, Penguin and Macmillan, and Apple to fight.

Amazon, which already controls about 60 percent of the e-book market, can take a loss on every book it sells to gain market share for its Kindle devices. When it has enough competitive advantage, it can dictate its own terms, something publishers say is beginning to happen.

The online retailer declined to comment Wednesday beyond its statement about lowering prices. Asked last month if Amazon had been talking to the Justice Department about the investigation — a matter of intense speculation in the publishing industry — a spokesman, Craig Berman, said, “I can’t comment.”

Traditional bookstores, which have been under pressure from the Internet for years, fear that the price gap between the physical books they sell and e-books from Amazon will now grow so wide they will lose what is left of their market. Barnes & Noble stores, whose Nook is one of the few popular e-readers that is not built by Amazon, could suffer the same fate, analysts say.

“To stay healthy, this industry needs a lot of retailers that have a stake in the future of the product,” Mr. Norris said. “The bookstore up the street from my office is not trying to gain market share. They’re trying to make money by selling one book at a time to one person at a time.”

Electronic books have been around for more than a decade, but took off only when Amazon introduced the first Kindle e-reader in 2007. It immediately built a commanding lead. The antitrust case had its origins in the leading publishers’ struggle to control the power of Amazon, which had one point had 90 percent of the market.

Apple’s introduction of the iPad in early 2010 seemed to offer a way to combat Amazon.

John Sargent, the chief executive of Macmillan, said he would not settle because he had done nothing wrong and colluded with no one. He wrote to his authors and employees that he made the decision to change pricing structure “on January 22nd, 2010, a little after 4 a.m., on an exercise bike in my basement. It remains the loneliest decision I have ever made, and I see no reason to go back on it now.”

The government suit, filed in United States District Court for the Southern District in New York, made clear that the publishers were resentful and angry about the way that their relationship with Amazon had evolved. The retailer started out a customer of the publishers, but became a competitor. Even as the publishers and Apple negotiated in early 2010, the suit said, Amazon announced its own publishing program.

This only fed publishers’ anxiety. “I am now more convinced that we need a viable alternative to Amazon or this nonsense will continue and get much worse,” the suit quoted David Shanks, the Penguin USA chief executive, as saying.

In the short term, readers will save money. When 16 states simultaneously sued Apple and three of the publishers Wednesday, they said consumers had lost $100 million as a result of higher e-book prices.

“It will look like blue skies,” said Lorraine Shanley, a publishing consultant. “But in the longer term, competition erodes as the spread between e-books and physical books grows greater. There will be fewer retail stores.”

Booksellers reacted to the news with dismay. The American Booksellers Association said the Justice Department’s decision “to challenge a business model that played an essential role in fostering a more competitive, diverse retail environment seems to turn logic on its head.”

Individual stores struggled to absorb the news.

“If there’s an upside, I don’t see it yet,” said J. B. Dickey, the owner of the Seattle Mystery Bookshop. “My fear is that the major publishers won’t be able to stay in business just selling e-books. You can’t bring in enough money to support the infrastructure. If that happens, there goes the marketing, the editorial, the author tours, the expertise of the book industry.”

And his store, he added.

Celebrating on Wednesday was Steve Berman, a lawyer who last summer filed a class-action lawsuit against the five publishers and Apple for price-fixing. “The actions by the Justice Department substantiate our view of the case,” Mr. Berman said.

The plaintiffs in the case are readers troubled by e-book prices. “One consumer came to us and said, ‘How come I’m paying $14.99 when I used to pay $9.99?’ ” Mr. Berman recalled.

Mr. Berman’s firm, Hagens Berman, is in a Seattle office building that also houses Amazon offices. That has set off some speculation among Amazon opponents. Mr. Berman said the proximity was simply a coincidence. “We have no relationship with Amazon,” he said.

Amazon executives have said that the future is open to the bold, but that certain elements will be left behind. “Our mission is to reinvent reading,” one executive, Russ Grandinetti, said in an interview. “I guess Kindle’s not great for book binderies.”

The retailer has been taking a more aggressive stance toward publishers in recent months. When it failed to get better terms from a large Chicago distributor, the Independent Publishers Group, it removed IPG’s nearly 5,000 e-books from sale.

Curt Matthews, IPG’s chief executive, said publishers who dealt with Amazon “will have to insist on keeping their fair share. It is obviously true that producing good content is the hard part of making a good book, no matter how that content is captured. Why should publishers cede all of their power to this new player in the book business?”
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby wam » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:53 pm UTC

The interestng point that was raised on the radio this morning is in the age of Ebooks do you really need a big publishing house?

There are several examples of people sucessfully selling ebooks without one. It would also give greater proceeds to the author which is a good thing.

Also hopefully prices will come down, which will remove one of my reasons for not having an ebook reader is that a large number of novels that I would read cost the same/more as ebooks rather than printed books.

I also don't think this will hit actual bookstores anymore than they were already.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby AvatarIII » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:45 pm UTC

wam wrote:The interestng point that was raised on the radio this morning is in the age of Ebooks do you really need a big publishing house?

There are several examples of people sucessfully selling ebooks without one. It would also give greater proceeds to the author which is a good thing.

Also hopefully prices will come down, which will remove one of my reasons for not having an ebook reader is that a large number of novels that I would read cost the same/more as ebooks rather than printed books.

I also don't think this will hit actual bookstores anymore than they were already.


the publisher deals with advertising, publicity, and pays advances, I think you would need a secondary source of income to be a self published author, which is fine for first time authors, or authors that are already well enough established that they don't really need their own publicity, Stephen King for example could probably get away with it. i don't think a middle of the road author could survive.

I really don't know why publishers haven't capitalised on "digital copies" of books like the movie industry has. if you could buy a hard copy of a book, and get a free digital copy with it, I think people would be more inclined to buy copies of books and get a digital copy than just buying a digital copy on its own. as as with triple play DVDs that come with a blu-ray as well, for only a little more than simply the DVD on its own, it got people buying blu-rays before they even had players, I think it would simultaneously save people money, keep the printed book market strong, and encourage more people to buy ereaders.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Zamfir » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:04 pm UTC

AvatarIII wrote: I think it would simultaneously save people money, keep the printed book market strong, and encourage more people to buy ereaders.

The third is rather important. Publishers are in no hurry to see ebooks succeed. They need time to adapt to adapt to them, to find out what works and doesn't work, to train and hire people with right skills and experience, etc. The faster it goes, the more advantage they will give up to players with more digital experience, like Apple and Amazon.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby AvatarIII » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:35 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
AvatarIII wrote: I think it would simultaneously save people money, keep the printed book market strong, and encourage more people to buy ereaders.

The third is rather important. Publishers are in no hurry to see ebooks succeed. They need time to adapt to adapt to them, to find out what works and doesn't work, to train and hire people with right skills and experience, etc. The faster it goes, the more advantage they will give up to players with more digital experience, like Apple and Amazon.


ah, but therein lies the ingeniousness of my idea, if ebook were bundled with actual books, people that want ebooks would probably be just as likely to spend a little bit extra and get the print book and ebook, because an actual book has a higher perceived value, buyers would feel like they are getting a bargain,
say an ebook for a brand now novel on it's own was £10, the hardback book was £14 and both together was $16, i know I'd probably buy the bundle of both, because I'd feel like i bought something real
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Triangle_Man » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:11 pm UTC

AvatarIII wrote:ah, but therein lies the ingeniousness of my idea, if ebook were bundled with actual books, people that want ebooks would probably be just as likely to spend a little bit extra and get the print book and ebook, because an actual book has a higher perceived value, buyers would feel like they are getting a bargain,
say an ebook for a brand now novel on it's own was £10, the hardback book was £14 and both together was $16, i know I'd probably buy the bundle of both, because I'd feel like i bought something real

...Agreed on this point, I guess. I admit that I refuse to purchase an e-reader or e-books (mostly) because I have a...very 'loving' sentiment for the physical object of a book; it feels more 'real' to me than what is essentially a large amount of data. If a bundle deal like that were available, however, I might be inclined to spring for the e-reader so I can gain the advantages (real and perceived) of both.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Arariel » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:23 am UTC

The government’s decision to pursue major publishers on antitrust charges has put the Internet retailer Amazon in a powerful position: the nation’s largest bookseller may now get to decide how much an e-book will cost, and the book world is quaking over the potential consequences.

As soon as the Department of Justice announced Wednesday that it was suing five major publishers and Apple on price-fixing charges, and simultaneously settling with three of them, Amazon announced plans to push down prices on e-books. The price of some major titles could fall to $9.99 or less from $14.99, saving voracious readers a bundle. ...

Spoiler:
But publishers and booksellers argue that any victory for consumers will be short-lived, and that the ultimate effect of the antitrust suit will be to exchange a perceived monopoly for a real one. Amazon, already the dominant force in the industry, will hold all the cards.

“Amazon must be unbelievably happy today,” said Michael Norris, a book publishing analyst with Simba Information. “Had they been puppeteering this whole play, it could not have worked out better for them.”

The government said the five publishers colluded with Apple in secret to develop a new policy that let them set their own retail prices, and then sought to hide their discussions.

After that deal was in place in 2010, the government said, prices jumped everywhere because under the agreement, no bookseller could undercut Apple.

HarperCollins, Hachette and Simon & Schuster settled the charges Wednesday, leaving the other two, Penguin and Macmillan, and Apple to fight.

Amazon, which already controls about 60 percent of the e-book market, can take a loss on every book it sells to gain market share for its Kindle devices. When it has enough competitive advantage, it can dictate its own terms, something publishers say is beginning to happen.

The online retailer declined to comment Wednesday beyond its statement about lowering prices. Asked last month if Amazon had been talking to the Justice Department about the investigation — a matter of intense speculation in the publishing industry — a spokesman, Craig Berman, said, “I can’t comment.”

Traditional bookstores, which have been under pressure from the Internet for years, fear that the price gap between the physical books they sell and e-books from Amazon will now grow so wide they will lose what is left of their market. Barnes & Noble stores, whose Nook is one of the few popular e-readers that is not built by Amazon, could suffer the same fate, analysts say.

“To stay healthy, this industry needs a lot of retailers that have a stake in the future of the product,” Mr. Norris said. “The bookstore up the street from my office is not trying to gain market share. They’re trying to make money by selling one book at a time to one person at a time.”

Electronic books have been around for more than a decade, but took off only when Amazon introduced the first Kindle e-reader in 2007. It immediately built a commanding lead. The antitrust case had its origins in the leading publishers’ struggle to control the power of Amazon, which had one point had 90 percent of the market.

Apple’s introduction of the iPad in early 2010 seemed to offer a way to combat Amazon.

John Sargent, the chief executive of Macmillan, said he would not settle because he had done nothing wrong and colluded with no one. He wrote to his authors and employees that he made the decision to change pricing structure “on January 22nd, 2010, a little after 4 a.m., on an exercise bike in my basement. It remains the loneliest decision I have ever made, and I see no reason to go back on it now.”

The government suit, filed in United States District Court for the Southern District in New York, made clear that the publishers were resentful and angry about the way that their relationship with Amazon had evolved. The retailer started out a customer of the publishers, but became a competitor. Even as the publishers and Apple negotiated in early 2010, the suit said, Amazon announced its own publishing program.

This only fed publishers’ anxiety. “I am now more convinced that we need a viable alternative to Amazon or this nonsense will continue and get much worse,” the suit quoted David Shanks, the Penguin USA chief executive, as saying.

In the short term, readers will save money. When 16 states simultaneously sued Apple and three of the publishers Wednesday, they said consumers had lost $100 million as a result of higher e-book prices.

“It will look like blue skies,” said Lorraine Shanley, a publishing consultant. “But in the longer term, competition erodes as the spread between e-books and physical books grows greater. There will be fewer retail stores.”

Booksellers reacted to the news with dismay. The American Booksellers Association said the Justice Department’s decision “to challenge a business model that played an essential role in fostering a more competitive, diverse retail environment seems to turn logic on its head.”

Individual stores struggled to absorb the news.

“If there’s an upside, I don’t see it yet,” said J. B. Dickey, the owner of the Seattle Mystery Bookshop. “My fear is that the major publishers won’t be able to stay in business just selling e-books. You can’t bring in enough money to support the infrastructure. If that happens, there goes the marketing, the editorial, the author tours, the expertise of the book industry.”

And his store, he added.

Celebrating on Wednesday was Steve Berman, a lawyer who last summer filed a class-action lawsuit against the five publishers and Apple for price-fixing. “The actions by the Justice Department substantiate our view of the case,” Mr. Berman said.

The plaintiffs in the case are readers troubled by e-book prices. “One consumer came to us and said, ‘How come I’m paying $14.99 when I used to pay $9.99?’ ” Mr. Berman recalled.

Mr. Berman’s firm, Hagens Berman, is in a Seattle office building that also houses Amazon offices. That has set off some speculation among Amazon opponents. Mr. Berman said the proximity was simply a coincidence. “We have no relationship with Amazon,” he said.

Amazon executives have said that the future is open to the bold, but that certain elements will be left behind. “Our mission is to reinvent reading,” one executive, Russ Grandinetti, said in an interview. “I guess Kindle’s not great for book binderies.”

The retailer has been taking a more aggressive stance toward publishers in recent months. When it failed to get better terms from a large Chicago distributor, the Independent Publishers Group, it removed IPG’s nearly 5,000 e-books from sale.

Curt Matthews, IPG’s chief executive, said publishers who dealt with Amazon “will have to insist on keeping their fair share. It is obviously true that producing good content is the hard part of making a good book, no matter how that content is captured. Why should publishers cede all of their power to this new player in the book business?”


I'm having trouble believing Amazon's motives here are dumping for the purpose of establishing a monopoly. There aren't exactly any significant barriers to entry for, say, publishers to sell their own e-books if Amazon raised prices to monopoly levels. Publishers could offer alternative formats like PDFs that don't have DRM like AZWs do at lower prices than Amazon's if Amazon priced at monopoly levels, and I'm sure consumers would go for that. Honestly, the Internet is one of the greatest developments in the respect of the establishment of competition.

What the publishers are (probably) afraid of is not the establishment of a monopoly, but a monopsony. Which is still pretty illegal, but it's pretty ironic coming from, well, bloody publishing companies, the ORIGINAL monopsonists/oligopsonists. It's as if the record companies started complaining about Crapple using its monopsony power to underpay them. Not sure if that's happened, but it would be pretty funny.

As for Crapple, the reason they got in this whole business is (I bet) because of their precious iPad, and their desire to crush sales for the Kindle. Higher prices in Amazon ebooks obviously result in reduced sales of both Amazon ebooks and Kindles.

My guess for Amazon's business model was that they were loss leading to sell more Kindles (technically legal), which would give them a dominant market share in tablets and ebook sales, which means, of course, more profit even without setting monopoly-level prices.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:58 am UTC

I agree. Amazon has plenty of competition online in the ebook industry.

For example, people here are talking about deals with ebooks + books getting packaged together. O'Reilly does this. Taking the first book on their site for example:

http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920010890.do
Using Drupal:
eBook only: $35.99
Printed only: $44.99
eBook+Printed: $49.49

For just $4.50 more than the printed version, you can get both the printed and ebook versions of the textbook. Add the fact that OReilly is DRM free (as opposed to the ebooks on Amazon that will only work on the specific Kindle you purchased the book with...), so you can transfer that DRM-free ebook to a Kindle, iPad, Nook, or any other reader. (or copy it so that your friends can read it too).

I don't buy OReilly books from Amazon anymore: I go straight to the source.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby lutzj » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:12 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I don't buy OReilly books from Amazon anymore: I go straight to the source.


I read your whole post thinking you meant this O'Reilly and this made me smirk a bit. :D
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Zamfir » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:26 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I don't buy OReilly books from Amazon anymore: I go straight to the source.

Thing is, Oreilly sells techie books to techies. Nearly everyone of their customers knows what a file is, what a file system looks like, how to download a ebook file and move it to the appropriate location on a ereader, etc. And not just knowing, they have done such things so often that they don't have to sit down and concentrate to do it, at all. Even then, ordering a book through oreilly's is a noticable bigger hassle than through a kindle. On top of that, Oreilly's books are heavily marketed with their brands, more than the author. So going to their website is a fairly natural thing to do, even you have no more clue than "hmm, I need a book on XML and my previous oreilly's book was OK".

So compared to most publishers, they have a fairly strong position vis-a-vis Amazon. Even so, I bet they have a healthy fear of them. If their books are no longer available on Amazon, they'll lose substantial part of readers. Especially readers who are not yet loyal Oreilly readers (and therefore won't easily go the site), and the cash-flush readers who just want a good-enough book ASAP with the least hassle. To make up for that, Oreilly would have to increase marketing spending enormously.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby maybeagnostic » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:47 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Thing is, Oreilly sells techie books to techies. Nearly everyone of their customers knows what a file is, what a file system looks like, how to download a ebook file and move it to the appropriate location on a ereader, etc. And not just knowing, they have done such things so often that they don't have to sit down and concentrate to do it, at all. Even then, ordering a book through oreilly's is a noticable bigger hassle than through a kindle.
That is true but the solution is to promote competition between ereaders and ideally end up with a situation where every reader has free access to all ebook sellers and a search for a book returns all options. You know, something like this but seamlessly accessible with a reader.

Arbitrarily raising prices of ebooks to deter the spread of ereaders doesn't help address the problem and it might actually make it worse by ensuring that only huge popular companies like apple and amazon can survive on the market.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:03 pm UTC

Arariel wrote:I'm having trouble believing Amazon's motives here are dumping for the purpose of establishing a monopoly. There aren't exactly any significant barriers to entry for, say, publishers to sell their own e-books if Amazon raised prices to monopoly levels. Publishers could offer alternative formats like PDFs that don't have DRM like AZWs do at lower prices than Amazon's if Amazon priced at monopoly levels, and I'm sure consumers would go for that. Honestly, the Internet is one of the greatest developments in the respect of the establishment of competition.

There are barriers for publishers to sell to the public, some of them legal but most of them involve alienating all the brick & mortar retailers they have a long-standing arrangement with. It's like they have the option of gutting their print business in order to have a shot with the ebook market, and if they don't take that option then their monospony with AMZN becomes am AMZN monopoly as far as the consumers are concerned.

Arariel wrote:My guess for Amazon's business model was that they were loss leading to sell more Kindles (technically legal), which would give them a dominant market share in tablets and ebook sales, which means, of course, more profit even without setting monopoly-level prices.

They're selling their Kindles at a loss also: a loss on ebooks and a loss on the readers means predatory pricing, not loss leading.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Arariel » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:48 am UTC

Pez Dispens3r wrote:There are barriers for publishers to sell to the public, some of them legal but most of them involve alienating all the brick & mortar retailers they have a long-standing arrangement with. It's like they have the option of gutting their print business in order to have a shot with the ebook market, and if they don't take that option then their monospony with AMZN becomes am AMZN monopoly as far as the consumers are concerned.


If Amazon raises its prices above competitive levels, brick and mortar sellers can undercut them. If there are no brick and mortar sellers, there will be no one for publishers to alienate. If there are enough brick and mortar retailers that publishers selling to the public would alienate them, then Amazon does not have a monopoly. If Amazon has a monopoly, then publishers can sell directly. O'Reilly can do so, why can't other publishers? Alternatively, the moment Amazon raises prices above competitive levels, others (such as Crapple) can come in and undercut Amazon.

Pez Dispens3r wrote:They're selling their Kindles at a loss also: a loss on ebooks and a loss on the readers means predatory pricing, not loss leading.


[P]redatory pricing is the practice of selling a product or service at a very low price, intending to drive competitors out of the market, or create barriers to entry for potential new competitors.


Amazon's tactics here aren't to drive competitors out of a market or create barriers to entry, because that would be impossible. There is no way Amazon could, for example, drive Crapple out. Furthermore, even if it were possible for Amazon to establish a monopoly on books or even ebooks (they would have to establish a monopoly on books in general to have any effect, since books and ebooks are extremely close substitutes) and raise prices above competitive levels, why would they want to? That's literally the easiest way to get the anti-trust people on your ass, and their execs can't actually be stupid enough to attempt that.

Of course they're not actually trying to earn a profit on the Kindle. They're trying to earn a profit on the books they'll sell at a profit when the Kindle has permeated amongst consumers enough. Since Amazon is will be the preferred method of distribution of ebooks, Kindle owners will of course buy from Amazon. But that does not mean Amazon has a monopoly, and Kindles aren't even locked in to Amazon-only ebooks or even the AZW format from what I've heard (the later ones can open PDFs IIRC). If another bookseller wants to provide ebooks at a lower price, consumers can pick that one. Any way, this is not going to result in a monopoly.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Endless Mike » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:20 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Add the fact that OReilly is DRM free (as opposed to the ebooks on Amazon that will only work on the specific Kindle you purchased the book with...),

This isn't true. You can have up to six Kindles on your account, and add and remove as desired. Books can all be shared across them, and of you turn on wireless syncing, it will even keep the same page across them. Devices with Kindle apps may or may not be included in this total, I'm not sure.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Arariel » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:34 am UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Add the fact that OReilly is DRM free (as opposed to the ebooks on Amazon that will only work on the specific Kindle you purchased the book with...),

This isn't true. You can have up to six Kindles on your account, and add and remove as desired. Books can all be shared across them, and of you turn on wireless syncing, it will even keep the same page across them. Devices with Kindle apps may or may not be included in this total, I'm not sure.


Well, the point is that Amazon's ebooks have Digital Restrictions Management, and therefore it should be fairly easy for, say, a publisher to undercut Amazon by letting other retailers sell DRM-free ebooks, or by selling them themselves. I'm sure many consumers would prefer DRM-free stuff even if it cost a few dollars more.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:33 am UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Add the fact that OReilly is DRM free (as opposed to the ebooks on Amazon that will only work on the specific Kindle you purchased the book with...),

This isn't true. You can have up to six Kindles on your account, and add and remove as desired. Books can all be shared across them, and of you turn on wireless syncing, it will even keep the same page across them. Devices with Kindle apps may or may not be included in this total, I'm not sure.


Good to know about that. But still, DRMed means that Amazon can take away the book if they so wanted to. Ex: Amazon's 1984 deletion incident.

Its a simple matter of having control over the material you purchase. A DRM-free book is worth more than a locked down book you buy from Amazon, especially when O'Reilly allows you to download the old ebooks you purchased if you somehow lost your copy. Amazon can change the terms of the license. They can change account settings in the future to be 1 device if they wanted more control over the ebook industry. (or if publishers demanded more control).

There's no guarantee that Amazon will keep their terms constant, nor is there any real motivation for them to do so. Especially if their competition gets knocked out with anti-competitive practices.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Arrian » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:38 pm UTC

Arariel wrote:Amazon's tactics here aren't to drive competitors out of a market or create barriers to entry, because that would be impossible. There is no way Amazon could, for example, drive Crapple out.


The fact that Apple didn't enter the market until publishers changed their distribution contracts and added retail price maintenance is pretty solid evidence that your assertion is, in fact, false: Amazon did indeed prevent Apple from entering the market by selling ebooks at a loss.

Of course they're not actually trying to earn a profit on the Kindle. They're trying to earn a profit on the books they'll sell at a profit when the Kindle has permeated amongst consumers enough. Since Amazon is will be the preferred method of distribution of ebooks, Kindle owners will of course buy from Amazon. But that does not mean Amazon has a monopoly, ...


Actually, that's exactly what monopoly is: The ability to price above marginal cost. And, if you're saying their strategy is to sell ebooks and readers at a loss until they have a lock in from consumers, and then begin selling ebooks at a profit, that is the definition of predatory pricing. They created a barrier to entry for new competitors by selling at a loss, so even after they begin to sell at a profit, they still have a credible threat to sell at a loss again if a competitor appears.

Now, since Amazon sells just about everything, selling ebooks and readers at a loss might just be a loss leader or them. It helps get eyes on their webpage so they can sell hotplates and Transformers at a profit. But, for competitors that only sell books, that is predatory pricing because the competitors cannot match the price and make up the losses on other products. It's a complicated area of economics and antitrust law that I'm not familiar enough with to say which is dominant. I think there are exceptions for selling some products at a loss when the price of a (typical? same that competitors sell?) bundle of products average out to the (average? weighted average?) marginal cost. I don't know if this applies here, does Amazon sell paper books at a high enough markup to balance out the losses they take on ebooks and readers? I wouldn't think they could point at their non-book related offerings, since competing book sellers wouldn't also offer those things. (But maybe they can because generalist sellers like Target and Wal Mart could theoretically also sell ebooks, if they want to?)
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Arariel » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:08 am UTC

Arrian wrote:The fact that Apple didn't enter the market until publishers changed their distribution contracts and added retail price maintenance is pretty solid evidence that your assertion is, in fact, false: Amazon did indeed prevent Apple from entering the market by selling ebooks at a loss.


Or rather, wasn't it Crapple which negotiated those distribution contracts?

CBS wrote:But even if Apple clings to that defense, it's worth noting what Steve Jobs told his biographer Walter Isaacson before his death. According to Isaacson, Jobs acknowledged that he had a plan to take down Amazon in the e-book space, and he understood that it would mean higher e-book prices.

"We told the publishers, 'We'll go to the agency model, where you set the price, and we get our 30%, and yes, the customer pays a little more, but that's what you want anyway," Jobs told his biographer. "They went to Amazon and said, 'You're going to sign an agency contract or we're not going to give you the books.'"


So no, Crapple put those contracts into motion so they wouldn't have to compete against Amazon in prices.

Arrian wrote:Actually, that's exactly what monopoly is: The ability to price above marginal cost. And, if you're saying their strategy is to sell ebooks and readers at a loss until they have a lock in from consumers, and then begin selling ebooks at a profit, that is the definition of predatory pricing. They created a barrier to entry for new competitors by selling at a loss, so even after they begin to sell at a profit, they still have a credible threat to sell at a loss again if a competitor appears.

Now, since Amazon sells just about everything, selling ebooks and readers at a loss might just be a loss leader or them. It helps get eyes on their webpage so they can sell hotplates and Transformers at a profit. But, for competitors that only sell books, that is predatory pricing because the competitors cannot match the price and make up the losses on other products. It's a complicated area of economics and antitrust law that I'm not familiar enough with to say which is dominant. I think there are exceptions for selling some products at a loss when the price of a (typical? same that competitors sell?) bundle of products average out to the (average? weighted average?) marginal cost. I don't know if this applies here, does Amazon sell paper books at a high enough markup to balance out the losses they take on ebooks and readers? I wouldn't think they could point at their non-book related offerings, since competing book sellers wouldn't also offer those things. (But maybe they can because generalist sellers like Target and Wal Mart could theoretically also sell ebooks, if they want to?)


Errr... no. That is not what a monopoly is. Monopolies have the ability to price above marginal cost (if unregulated), but the mere ability to price above marginal cost does not constitute a monopoly in and of itself. If that were so, Crapple is a monopoly because it definitely sells its products above marginal cost, and so are Hilton hotels, and fancy restaurants. Nor does simply having the entire supply to a product make one a monopoly. A company that has complete control of the distribution of, say, chicken wings (and nothing else) is not a monopoly because close substitutes exist for chicken wings. Similarly, Amazon will not obtain a monopoly unless no close substitutes exist for their ebooks, which will never happen.

The whole point of Amazon driving people to the Kindle was to establish an (almost) entirely new market in electronic readers. Sure, the Sony Reader and others may have been available before, but they didn't exactly sell a whole bunch, did they? So they priced both the Kindle and their books at a loss in order to encourage consumers to adopt the Kindle. But this does not mean they can all of a sudden start selling ebooks at monopoly prices, or even raise their prices noticeably above competitors'. The Kindle can open other file formats besides Amazon's proprietary (and DRM) AZW files, so there's nothing preventing a consumer from buying a competitor's ebook and putting it on their device. So Amazon will still have to compete on a price basis. But this doesn't matter to them because they're now the preferred distributors for Kindle owners. They might not have a monopoly, but they do have a guaranteed source of revenue.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Chen » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:45 am UTC

Arariel wrote:The whole point of Amazon driving people to the Kindle was to establish an (almost) entirely new market in electronic readers. Sure, the Sony Reader and others may have been available before, but they didn't exactly sell a whole bunch, did they? So they priced both the Kindle and their books at a loss in order to encourage consumers to adopt the Kindle. But this does not mean they can all of a sudden start selling ebooks at monopoly prices, or even raise their prices noticeably above competitors'. The Kindle can open other file formats besides Amazon's proprietary (and DRM) AZW files, so there's nothing preventing a consumer from buying a competitor's ebook and putting it on their device. So Amazon will still have to compete on a price basis. But this doesn't matter to them because they're now the preferred distributors for Kindle owners. They might not have a monopoly, but they do have a guaranteed source of revenue.


While its a guaranteed source of revenue it only becomes profitable if they later raise prices so they're no longer selling at a loss. The process of:

selling at loss->become preferred distributor->raise prices so profit can now be made

certainly seems predatory to me. If they simple continued to sell at a loss constantly...well I can't see why they'd do that unless they were just altruistic (which is highly unlikely).
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:48 pm UTC

Arariel wrote:Well, the point is that Amazon's ebooks have Digital Restrictions Management, and therefore it should be fairly easy for, say, a publisher to undercut Amazon by letting other retailers sell DRM-free ebooks, or by selling them themselves. I'm sure many consumers would prefer DRM-free stuff even if it cost a few dollars more.

I'd say the vast majority of consumers wouldn't care or even know either way. DRM only ever bothers people when they're unable to do what they want with the content. As long as a book works on their Kindle or iOS or Android Kindle app or Amazon Cloud Reader or Kindle for Windows or Mac, I really doubt anyone is going to care, especially as long as it's more convenient than other methods of getting an ebook. It's the same reason most people don't really care that Steam is, by definition, DRM.

Yes, there's a portion that will pay for a DRM-free ebook that they download to their computer then transfer to whatever their preferred device is, but for most this is less a much less convenient method.
Arariel wrote:Crapple

Crapple

Crapple

Can you not do this? It really lowers the level of discourse for no reason.

Or, if you insist on it, can you please make sure to use similar terms for Amazon or any other companies that may get mentioned?
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Zamfir » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:54 pm UTC

Cram-a-zon. Cringel. iCrac. CryOS. Cream. Anachroid. Wincrows. You're on to something there.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:18 pm UTC

Chen wrote:While its a guaranteed source of revenue it only becomes profitable if they later raise prices so they're no longer selling at a loss. The process of:

selling at loss->become preferred distributor->raise prices so profit can now be made
Yes...
Chen wrote:certainly seems predatory to me.
... wait, what? How did you get from 'trying to build a large enough market' (switching people from physical books to ebooks) to predatory? The reduced pricing is giving people incentive to pay for a reader and learn how to use it not turning them into mindless amazon zombies.

If anything, the current situation is giving extra power to Amazon and even they aren't happy with it. Right now most any book I'd like to buy for my kindle is the same price on all online stores. If I have decided to buy an ebook my only distinction between stores is convenience vs DRM-free product. I would be much more willing to go through the hassle of buying ebooks from other stores if there was a meaningful different in price ('meaningful' because I have seen a few situation where a book has been priced $x.98 or $x.98 vs $x.99 on different stores).

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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:23 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
Arariel wrote:Well, the point is that Amazon's ebooks have Digital Restrictions Management, and therefore it should be fairly easy for, say, a publisher to undercut Amazon by letting other retailers sell DRM-free ebooks, or by selling them themselves. I'm sure many consumers would prefer DRM-free stuff even if it cost a few dollars more.

I'd say the vast majority of consumers wouldn't care or even know either way. DRM only ever bothers people when they're unable to do what they want with the content. As long as a book works on their Kindle or iOS or Android Kindle app or Amazon Cloud Reader or Kindle for Windows or Mac, I really doubt anyone is going to care, especially as long as it's more convenient than other methods of getting an ebook. It's the same reason most people don't really care that Steam is, by definition, DRM.

Yes, there's a portion that will pay for a DRM-free ebook that they download to their computer then transfer to whatever their preferred device is, but for most this is less a much less convenient method.


Mike: this isn't a DRM discussion. So I'll try to steer this towards the topic again. Please work with me on this...

Amazon is certainly handling DRM better than Apple did with iTunes. Tying your ebook collection to an abstract "account" as opposed to your hardware has been less intrusive than previous DRM attempts. They have also worked hard to put a Kindle App on every major device (even Windows Phones). The major thing Amazon has going for them is convenience.

However, this topic is mostly about Apple, Amazon, and potential monopolies (or monopsony) resulting in their convenience. Monopoly-level powers is above and beyond just the convenience factor... I'd argue its the point when the smaller retailers can no longer effectively create a profit on their own site.

As far as monopolies and ebooks are concerned... Apple's price fixing sounds awfully like a Cartel to me. And while Amazon does seem to be practicing predatory pricing... I doubt that they'd get to the level of a "monopoly" when Apple, Barnes and Noble, and Google have entered the market as big name ebook companies. (All DRMed in their own ways...). Smaller publishers then can offer DRM-free material as a way of giving more to customers who use their site.

I mean sure... Amazon has a lot of market share. But small publishers have competitive edges against Amazon and based on the Nook's and IPad's success so far... the Kindle is facing some very tough competition in the hardware device category as well. (Even smaller and smaller products continue to enter the market: like the Story HD from iRiver). In these conditions, a cartel would change the market conditions more severely than if Amazon tried to become a monopoly.

Arariel wrote:Crapple

Crapple

Crapple

Can you not do this? It really lowers the level of discourse for no reason.

Or, if you insist on it, can you please make sure to use similar terms for Amazon or any other companies that may get mentioned?


I do believe the proper terms are Windozze, *nix, @mazon...
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Ghostbear » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:32 pm UTC

Chen wrote:While its a guaranteed source of revenue it only becomes profitable if they later raise prices so they're no longer selling at a loss.

Not always strictly true: they could be using low prices now, with the hope of the costs going down over time, such that they're profitable later. There's a much more limited space available to Amazon for this*, but you can see it in a lot of hardware (Xbox360 and PS3 both launched at a loss, Kindle makes a loss, etc.). In this case, Amazon could very well be going for getting the costs to go lower through better bargaining power with the publishers to lower licensing fees; I don't see them as wanting to raise prices at a later date, even with a monopoly. A big part of that, of course, is because of some of KnightExemplar's points -- Amazon would always have a somewhat fragile monopoly if they got one at all, as there are many players that would love to jump in if they saw an opening.

* The only costs for them to sell an ebook are licencing fees, bandwidth and whatever it costs to keep their delivery & sales systems up -- most of which are going to be costs they've already minimized.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Chen » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:40 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:... wait, what? How did you get from 'trying to build a large enough market' (switching people from physical books to ebooks) to predatory? The reduced pricing is giving people incentive to pay for a reader and learn how to use it not turning them into mindless amazon zombies.


Reducing pricing to gain the market (and drive others out) via selling below cost, just to raise the prices later (once you have the market) is predatory. If they simply keep the prices low then its just foolish from a business point of view. Why sell things below cost (the readers and the books) with no intent to later raise prices?


Ghostbear wrote:Not always strictly true: they could be using low prices now, with the hope of the costs going down over time, such that they're profitable later. There's a much more limited space available to Amazon for this*, but you can see it in a lot of hardware (Xbox360 and PS3 both launched at a loss, Kindle makes a loss, etc.). In this case, Amazon could very well be going for getting the costs to go lower through better bargaining power with the publishers to lower licensing fees; I don't see them as wanting to raise prices at a later date, even with a monopoly. A big part of that, of course, is because of some of KnightExemplar's points -- Amazon would always have a somewhat fragile monopoly if they got one at all, as there are many players that would love to jump in if they saw an opening.


Ok that's a valid point. That said, if they push others out of the market, it stands to reason they have increased negotiating power to force publishers to abide by lower prices if they're the main vector for ebook sales.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:19 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
maybeagnostic wrote:... wait, what? How did you get from 'trying to build a large enough market' (switching people from physical books to ebooks) to predatory? The reduced pricing is giving people incentive to pay for a reader and learn how to use it not turning them into mindless amazon zombies.


Reducing pricing to gain the market (and drive others out) via selling below cost, just to raise the prices later (once you have the market) is predatory. If they simply keep the prices low then its just foolish from a business point of view. Why sell things below cost (the readers and the books) with no intent to later raise prices?
The reduced pricing isn't pushing other sellers out of the ebook market, it's growing the market by greatly increasing the number of people reading ebooks. They might be trying to increase their share in the ereader market (if more people have kindles, more people will take the amazon market's convenience into account when shopping) but the number and quality of alternative ereaders is constantly increasing. I have a kindle and sometimes decide to buy my books from other places (mostly non-English books and sometimes directly from an author's website)- amazon provides a free and very quick way to upload those books on my kindle.

There is also freely available very convenient software (calibre) for managing an ebook library of DRM-free books instantly convertible into all imaginable ebook formats. It works seamlessly with my kindle and my android phone.

The only way for Amazon to become a monopoly is to be the biggest online ebook store (already kind of achieved) and to force people into only publishing their books on the kindle store (presumably through some kind of exclusivity clause in the contract). You know, a much milder* version of what the big publishing houses have been doing for... decades? centuries?

* Milder because the publishing houses actually buy the rights to the book so they are the owners of every book they publish. That's why writers right now have to make a choice between publishing a book through traditional means or putting it up on the online stores. I assume the publishing houses are afraid of the ebook market because they are currently largely unnecessary in that scheme; writers could make much more money by just going around them if they didn't care to publish physical books. An online book store of self-published authors would only need some quality control and a good recommendation/ranking system to offer quality books at a much lower price than publishers.

P.S. Just to clarify, raising prices above cost is not a problem by itself. Any business survives in the long term by selling above cost. Ebooks have a number of advantages and chief among them is the much lower cost- it's why new authors can afford to publish their first book on the kindle store for $1 to build up an audience and still make more money than they would if they got published on an $8 paperback and somehow got the same number of sales.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Zamfir » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:43 pm UTC

maybeagnostic, what makes you confident that amazon will not at some point start introducing exclusive contracts? Perhaps to publishers, perhaps to authors with Amazon acting as publisher and seller? Or subtly increase the hurdles to reading non-amazon books on a kindle? Or to selling such books?

Note for example the effect of DRM: if you want to sell ebooks to kindle owners while avoiding amazon, you open yourself up to trivial piracy. Person A bought your book through Amazon, tells a friend how great the book is, sends a nice and easy link to the friend to buy the book from amazon. It's only a few bucks, who cares. Person B bought your book from your DRM-free own website, tells a friend how great the book is, sends a copy of the book along. It's only a few bucks, hardly a crime.

The internet industry is one long battle of firms entrenching their position in such ways. Manoevre yourself in a position where you are the easy default option, while your competition and their users is faced by lots of little hurdles.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:56 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Note for example the effect of DRM: if you want to sell ebooks to kindle owners while avoiding amazon, you open yourself up to trivial piracy. Person A bought your book through Amazon, tells a friend how great the book is, sends a nice and easy link to the friend to buy the book from amazon. It's only a few bucks, who cares. Person B bought your book from your DRM-free own website, tells a friend how great the book is, sends a copy of the book along. It's only a few bucks, hardly a crime.


Kind of like how, when I buy a physical book at the store and tell my friends about it, if they're interested, I'll just give them my copy of the book to read instead of sending them to the bookstore.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:10 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:maybeagnostic, what makes you confident that amazon will not at some point start introducing exclusive contracts?
Nothing. Defending the outdated current monopolies just because something else might become a monopoly in the future strikes me as a very weird position though. Right now there are alternatives to the kindle and alternatives to the kindle store- amazon is winning on overall quality (hasn't won yet though since it definitely hasn't gotten rid of the competition).

About the DRM-free distribution, I might be overly optimistic but I believe people would be much less willing to avoid paying for a $1 to $5 book if they know the proceeds go directly to the author. In fact I used to often lend or be lent physical books ('pirated' I guess) back in the day- it was the best way to get me to buy more stuff by the author. Besides breaking DRM is trivial for most people who have a mind to do it and you only need one person like that to put up a book on a torrent tracker. Enough people will still buy the book from actual stores though.

The only asset amazon can really leverage to create a monopsony is discoverability- if the majority of people first search the kindle store and find enough books to be satisfied, then it might become difficult for an author outside that store to popularize their work. Still possible but difficult. I don't see a reliable solution for this but it still won't get any worse than the current situation and with some regulation it should never be left to be so bad.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Ghostbear » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:14 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Ok that's a valid point. That said, if they push others out of the market, it stands to reason they have increased negotiating power to force publishers to abide by lower prices if they're the main vector for ebook sales.

Yes, but the question is, are they doing it to push people out of the market, or just to get more market share for themselves? The latter wouldn't necessarily require anyone to be kicked out, just get stuck with less. Also, as an addendum to what I said earlier: looking at Amazon's model, it seems to me that they do best when the most amount of things are sold -- this tends to be when prices are lower. It could very well be that they don't need licensing fees to go down materially to make it profitable later. If their distribution model has large but mostly fixed costs, then increasing the volume of sales would also allow them to become profitable later.

Anyway, I guess the point is that there's a lot of ways for Amazon to make this profitable later without knocking out rivals or raising prices. Looking both at Amazon itself and the market we're dealing with (small digital files that are easy to distribute), I think it's likely to be that they're going for one of those ways instead of hoping to becoming a monopoly or oligopolist.

LaserGuy wrote:Kind of like how, when I buy a physical book at the store and tell my friends about it, if they're interested, I'll just give them my copy of the book to read instead of sending them to the bookstore.

Except in Zamfir's DRM-free example, now both you and your friend have a book; in your example, just you or your friend have the book. If you aren't done reading the book (or if you're like me and keep your books for forever, because fuck yeah, books!) then you can't really loan a physical book to someone else. If you aren't done reading an ebook, you can still send a copy of it to them.

maybeagnostic wrote:About the DRM-free distribution, I might be overly optimistic but I believe people would be much less willing to pirate a $1 to $5 book if they know the proceeds go directly to the author.

I think at that price point it'd be more about the price. People are going to pirate costlier things more often, and the cheaper it is, the more likely the (potential) convenience or other possible benefits (storing files for you on the company's servers, for example) are worth the price over pirating it.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Zamfir » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:31 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Kind of like how, when I buy a physical book at the store and tell my friends about it, if they're interested, I'll just give them my copy of the book to read instead of sending them to the bookstore.

My point is that amazon offers authors a way to avoid this (or at elast reduce its incidence). It's one of the reasons you might choose to offer your book on amazon, or even on amazon alone, even when amazon takes a large cut.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:35 pm UTC

Ghostbear wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Kind of like how, when I buy a physical book at the store and tell my friends about it, if they're interested, I'll just give them my copy of the book to read instead of sending them to the bookstore.


Except in Zamfir's DRM-free example, now both you and your friend have a book; in your example, just you or your friend have the book. If you aren't done reading the book (or if you're like me and keep your books for forever, because fuck yeah, books!) then you can't really loan a physical book to someone else. If you aren't done reading an ebook, you can still send a copy of it to them.


Both of us don't need the book at once. Once I read the book, I probably won't read it again. Or, if I do, it might be five years later. Sure, I like having books on the shelf too, but that doesn't mean that if somebody asks I won't give them my copies of Lord of the Rings for a couple weeks or something. The problems that you are describing are issues that frankly never come up in the real world, or can't be overcome without a half-second's thought. Anyway, I still arguably have a (partial) copy of the book, since once I've read it, it is now stored in my memory, and can be accessed whenever I want without the physical copy being present.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Ghostbear » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:48 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Both of us don't need the book at once. Once I read the book, I probably won't read it again. Or, if I do, it might be five years later. Sure, I like having books on the shelf too, but that doesn't mean that if somebody asks I won't give them my copies of Lord of the Rings for a couple weeks or something. The problems that you are describing are issues that frankly never come up in the real world, or can't be overcome without a half-second's thought. Anyway, I still arguably have a (partial) copy of the book, since once I've read it, it is now stored in my memory, and can be accessed whenever I want without the physical copy being present.

"Never"? Seriously? Beyond the exaggeration, that's still completely unreasonable; people are going to talk about the book they're currently reading. They're going to talk about books after they traded their copy in at a used bookstore. They're going to decide that their friend fucked up the last book they loaned them and not do so again. They're going to be selfishly protective of the book (maybe it's signed or a 1st edition or rare or their mom gave it to them or...). They might refuse to loan books to people because it's impossible to get the book back afterwards. There's a million things that could stop this. Those aren't non-existent or rare issues; they actually happen, and some of them can't be resolved (in the sense of the interested party gaining temporary access to your copy) at all, let alone with a "half-second's thought". None of those issues will appear with a DRM-free ebook; you can just toss the file at them in an email, or shove it on a usb stick, or put it on their Kindle right then.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:42 pm UTC

Ghostbear, are you arguing that DRM-free stores shouldn't exist? Or that they won't exist for long? If enough authors don't want to put their work on DRM-free stores then those stores will go out of business. That would be unfortunate but I see no way to prevent it.

All the 'problems' you've listed with digital books are inseparable from their advantages and most of them I consider advantages anyway. Most authors would be happy to have as many people read their books as possible and even people who only care about profit actually benefit from the added popularity and the almost zero production and distribution costs. Not to mention that anyone interested in profit shouldn't be stuck in the rut of thinking in terms of charging every individual reader- there have already been several authors that started with free digital books and slowly increased the price as they gained popularity until their books ended up being priced higher than the average publisher's book. All kinds of pricing schemes (free books, dynamically changing prices, bundle deals, retroactive rewards for people who paid for free books, offers for merchandise, and so on) are possible or at least much easier with digital books and are probably much more effective than DRM.

Finally, most people who would not pay for a digital copy wouldn't pay for a physical one either- if they had to get the book for some reason they can just get it much cheaper from a used book seller. College textbooks in the U.S. are a perfect example of this.
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Re: Apple, Book Publishers, Sued for Price Fixing

Postby Ghostbear » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:06 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:Ghostbear, are you arguing that DRM-free stores shouldn't exist? Or that they won't exist for long? If enough authors don't want to put their work on DRM-free stores then those stores will go out of business. That would be unfortunate but I see no way to prevent it.

No, I'm arguing that a DRM-free ebook being shared is not the same as a physical book being shared. Sharing a physical book deprives the owner of that physical copy until it's returned, while sharing an ebook deprives that owner of nothing. In the former, you're stuck with one book until an extra is bought (or stolen, or pirate printed, or photocopied, or... until you do something that is not "simple"), while in the latter case, you can get two books trivially when sharing with a friend. I think DRM-free is going to be necessary for most markets in the long term, ebooks included (not least of which because it's probably the single easiest entertainment medium to use the "analog hole" for, and even without that, DRM is simple enough to crack -- such that gives no noteworthy benefits to anyone, with many negatives abound), but it's silly to treat those two scenarios as identical. It even ties into one of the main differences between pirating and stealing.
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