Game of Throngs

[Diadem]

We just had this discussion last page. I guess you probably don't need spoilers for S1, but it doesn't hurt to err on the side of caution. And definitely spoiler anything from S2. But it's easiest to just tell what your spoiler is about, series or books, and which episode / book. Unless you reply to someone, in which case it's understood to be a spoiler of the same level.

[Yakk]

... assuming you quoted their spoiler warning as well. This forum doesn't use threaded replies, so the context should be in-post.

[Laserdan]

I did like the series, but I have to say the pacing felt wrong to me. Somehow it felt to me as if they breezed through the storyline, everything a bit to quick for my taste (though I understand that this is probably necessary due to production cost and attention span of people accustomed to this format).

The only thing that really rubbed me the wrong way was Littlefinger's speech to the two fun-having ladies in the whorehouse. It seemed arbitrary and out-of-place. Like the well-known "as you know, we are planning to..." where people talk about things that they know but spell it out for the viewers. I regard that as lazy writing.

[Obby]

I did like the series, but I have to say the pacing felt wrong to me. Somehow it felt to me as if they breezed through the storyline, everything a bit to quick for my taste (though I understand that this is probably necessary due to production cost and attention span of people accustomed to this format).

The only thing that really rubbed me the wrong way was Littlefinger's speech to the two fun-having ladies in the whorehouse. It seemed arbitrary and out-of-place. Like the well-known "as you know, we are planning to..." where people talk about things that they know but spell it out for the viewers. I regard that as lazy writing.

I attribute this more to the changes necessary in adapting works to different mediums, rather than ineptitude. They have to divide an 800 page book into 10 episodes. That's a lot of cramming for any book, let alone one with as complex a plot as ASoIaF. Some things are going to get cut, some things are going to get truncated, some things are going to not make sense due to the cuts, some things are going to get changed to make these other things make sense, etc. It's a very difficult process. Fans of this series are fortunate in that at least GRRM has input into the show. A lot of book adaptations are not that lucky.

[Laserdan]

I did like the series, but I have to say the pacing felt wrong to me. Somehow it felt to me as if they breezed through the storyline, everything a bit to quick for my taste (though I understand that this is probably necessary due to production cost and attention span of people accustomed to this format).

The only thing that really rubbed me the wrong way was Littlefinger's speech to the two fun-having ladies in the whorehouse. It seemed arbitrary and out-of-place. Like the well-known "as you know, we are planning to..." where people talk about things that they know but spell it out for the viewers. I regard that as lazy writing.

I attribute this more to the changes necessary in adapting works to different mediums, rather than ineptitude. They have to divide an 800 page book into 10 episodes. That's a lot of cramming for any book, let alone one with as complex a plot as ASoIaF. Some things are going to get cut, some things are going to get truncated, some things are going to not make sense due to the cuts, some things are going to get changed to make these other things make sense, etc. It's a very difficult process. Fans of this series are fortunate in that at least GRRM has input into the show. A lot of book adaptations are not that lucky.

Maybe you mixed up my two different statements on the show. The pacing was just something I didn't like too much, but I still found the show enjoyable.

The other thing was a single scene that I found not fitting, and additionally it is a well-known cliche to tell the viewer something in this way, and that is why I found that single scene to be bad writing. That thing has actually an entry on TVTropes called "As You Know", and it was a huge infodump. They could've done it with more subtlety than Littlefinger monologueing to two prostitutes having lesbian sex while he gives them instructions interspersingly.

But thank you for telling me that an 800-page book and a drama series on TV are not the same. Did not know that.

[LaserGuy]

Edited.

I assumed spoilers are used for book stuff. Are we also putting spoilers for events from the show at this point?

There is a discussion farther up the page about why events in the books and show should be spoilered separately.

[maybeagnostic]

Yeah, I read that and then completely forgot about it. I wish this forum had the [spoiler="description of what you see when you click this button"] style spoiler tag. I'll keep it in mind for future posts and sorry to anyone who read the spoiler without knowing what it was.

I did like the series, but I have to say the pacing felt wrong to me. Somehow it felt to me as if they breezed through the story line

It never bothers me while watching an episode but I get the same feeling a few days later. I can't quite figure out why though. The transitions are sudden but very well executed. I sometimes feel like they are just going through a checklist of every single scene from the books and ticking them off one by one but... even if that is the case, it isn't actually bad. I think it is all the small things- the stuff they don't have the time to fully present but still make allusions to. Someone who's read the books can get a lot more information from all sorts of small gestures and 'throwaway' lines that other viewers would ignore but that makes almost every single scene packed with information.

Actually the books were pretty much the same when I reread them- all these mentions of people and events are a lot more significant the second time around.

[Intrigued]

Agreed 100% with that sentiment. I'm digging into book 5 now, and my gf is around the same area. We re-watched the first season (after watching it then deciding we needed to read the books) and while rewatching them we were stopping it during every scene to talk about all the extra info there was in the book, the things that happened further down the line that were getting alluded to, etc. Whenever you have seen/read something once, you will generally find new stuff by going through it again, and even more so if you've seen/read storyline that's further down the road, you may pick up on stuff that would've been almost impossible to pick up on (but makes perfect sense in retrospect).

[Yakk]

Random: the Maid of Tarth isn't ugly enough.

(I don't consider that a spoiler: if you know what I'm saying, it isn't news...)

[LaserGuy]

The other thing was a single scene that I found not fitting, and additionally it is a well-known cliche to tell the viewer something in this way, and that is why I found that single scene to be bad writing. That thing has actually an entry on TVTropes called "As You Know", and it was a huge infodump. They could've done it with more subtlety than Littlefinger monologueing to two prostitutes having lesbian sex while he gives them instructions interspersingly.

There's nothing wrong with some sexposition, as long as it is actually also useful or relevant. The scene in Episode 3 with Renly/Loras/Margarey was very good because it actually developed the characters in a useful way that was directly relevant to a major story arc. The scene with Littlefinger and Ross in the brothel in the previous episode... not so much. A lot of the scenes with Littlefinger and Ross, separately or together, are often the ones that I'd wish they'd leave out, now that I think about it.

As an aside (book spoilers)

Spoiler:

Anyone have any idea what on Earth they are planning on doing with Ross? The only thing I can figure is that they're going to sort of have her play the role of Alayaya in the books, but they've already changed the storyline with Shae to remove the need for that character entirely, so there doesn't seem to be much reason for Tyrion to interact with her in any way. Beyond that... I don't know.

I also sort of wish they would do more with Littlefinger to make him look like... well, less of a pervert and more of a mastermind. In the book it's mentioned that Littlefinger has people a huge number of places, and owns a lot of other things besides brothels (and despite owning them, does not appear to visit them regularly). It would have been nice to spend some time showing his influence propagating through the city rather than just focusing on this one aspect. That would mean less nudity though, and HBO has a quota to fill.

[Intrigued]

I'll spoiler my response just because this thread is spoiler hardcore, my book spoilers may include up to and including book 5 -

Spoiler:

Ah, I know. I looked her up ahead of time because I was curious what they would do. She's "hollywood ugly", as expected. At least she's made out to be ridiculously tall.

Conversations that stems from that...

Book to season 1 spoiler

Spoiler:

arya isn't looking too horsefaced in the show

Books to season 2 comparison spoiler

Spoiler:

Rorge appeared to have a nose...

which has led me to ask, book to future episodes spoilers

Spoiler:

will tyrion lose (1/2 or all of) his nose? I think this was at the siege of king's landing. I have to guess not, based on the way they handled these other things, but it certainly gets brought up quite a bit in the books, and adds another layer onto his ever downward spiral of being physically "different" but persevering in spite of it.

Will Pia/Brienne get their teeth all messed up? These are important in similar ways to Tyrion's development.

[maybeagnostic]

Random: the Maid of Tarth isn't ugly enough.

(I don't consider that a spoiler: if you know what I'm saying, it isn't news...)

Some minor stuff from the books:

Spoiler:

I was never left with the impression that she is hideous just big, confrontational, and not interested in fretting over her looks. In a world where all other noble women spend their days sewing, preening, and scheming, she is not at all attractive for reasons other than just her looks.

Tyrion is also hideous except not really. Although I am curious how they'll handle him losing his nose.

[Obby]

which has led me to ask, book to future episodes spoilers

Spoiler:

will tyrion lose (1/2 or all of) his nose? I think this was at the siege of king's landing. I have to guess not, based on the way they handled these other things, but it certainly gets brought up quite a bit in the books, and adds another layer onto his ever downward spiral of being physically "different" but persevering in spite of it.

Will Pia/Brienne get their teeth all messed up? These are important in similar ways to Tyrion's development.

I was asking myself the same questions. (Spoilers for book 2 and... 4? I think. It's been a while since I read that part of the series)

Spoiler:

I came to the conclusion that those things would be very difficult, if not downright impossible, to achieve with makeup, and having to CG those features onto the characters in the future would be extremely expensive. They're probably just going to make it be some very large scar or something for Tyrion's injury.

As for Brienne getting a huge piece of cheek bitten off... that I'm not sure about. They might change that scene to make the Biter (I think that's the actual name of character that bites her?) only bite her arm or shoulder or something, some place that is normally covered by clothing so they don't need to do makeup for the injury as often.

[Intrigued]

Serious later book spoilers

Spoiler:

Ah yes! Biter does tear off a good piece of her cheek. Martin really holds no blows in permanently physically mutilating his characters. Jaime's hand is another really good example of that, which I don't imagine there's any way of them getting around (and it should be easier to do anyway).

Serious later book spoilers AND some Stephen King Dark Tower series spoilers

Spoiler:

Every time I think about Jaime's hand, it makes me think about how Roland loses his right hand trigger fingers so early on in the story. Handicapping his ability to shoot that much and then still making him an incredible badass helps you to understand how much of a badass he was before that happened. Stupid did-a-chuks. With Martin's approach to writing, while I hope Jaime will recover a good portion of his skill with his left hand, I really don't know if he ever will. In the end, it's not as important as the character growth he's seen to his personality/intelligence/willpower/independence/etc. that was spurred by that, and the other hardships he was facing.

Serious later book spoilers

Spoiler:

I got from the books that she was pretty darn ugly, in addition to being man-proportioned. I did not at all get that she was just a highborn who didn't care about looks as much. This probably stems also from when she talks about her father trying to get her suitors and they would all be pretty instantly revolted. I'm not going to start digging up references or anything, but I definitely got the impression she was specifically supposed to be more than unattractive.

I guess I don't know how much of a PITA it is to make someone look like they're missing a nose, so it's impossible for me to know whether they made that decision because they thought it'd be too gross looking, because it just cost too much, because they felt it wasn't that important to the story, or more likely some weighted combination of those and other factors I'm not currently thinking about.

[Dream]

I assumed spoilers are used for book stuff. Are we also putting spoilers for events from the show at this point?

Spoilers are for things that would ruin the plot for people who haven't seen it yet. As such, the current episode of the series, because that's what the thread is about and people are currently watching, and ALL of the books, because that's NOT what the thread is about, and people like me haven't read them but are watching the series. Everything in the books is a spoiler for me. So spoiler everything.

[Yakk]

Not-a-spoiler:

Spoiler:

And mark up your spoilers with what you are spoiling.

A spoiler that isn't marked up with what it could spoil is worse than useless.

[Dream]

The scene with Littlefinger and Ross in the brothel in the previous episode... not so much. A lot of the scenes with Littlefinger and Ross, separately or together, are often the ones that I'd wish they'd leave out, now that I think about it.

I'm kind of hoping they pay that off with some significance later in the plot. I don't mind if it's two or three seasons from now, but I hope it happens. She's now been related to three major characters, if you count Tyrion buying her services in the first series, so there really should be something worth all the exposition time. I wondered if (Series 1 and 2)

Spoiler:

her being so upset about hte massacre of innocents wasn't just a cheap way of making Baylish look serious after first the Queen, then Tyrion exercise power over him in the previous and following episodes. It's been a while since he outmaneuvered Ned Stark in Season 1.

[Intrigued]

Not-a-spoiler:

Spoiler:

And mark up your spoilers with what you are spoiling.

A spoiler that isn't marked up with what it could spoil is worse than useless.

How are they worse than useless? It still covers the text, if you don't know what a spoiler is going to spoil, and there are things you haven't read or seen, don't open it.

[gmalivuk]

Random: the Maid of Tarth isn't ugly enough.

Yeah, which I think is a symptom of the unfortunate fact that audiences aren't expected to be able to sympathize with truly unattractive female characters. Though as mentioned, her reputation as ugly might have more to do with thwarting people's expectations of noblewomen than with her actually being hard on the eyes.

Regarding Tyrion on a similar note (book 2 and on):

Spoiler:

While they may not go to the trouble of making it look like he loses a significant part of is nose, I expect they'll give him some manner of terrible scar, because that is significant to some of his later development.

A spoiler that isn't marked up with what it could spoil is worse than useless.

How are they worse than useless? It still covers the text, if you don't know what a spoiler is going to spoil, and there are things you haven't read or seen, don't open it.

And while you're at it, if you haven't read all the books and seen all the episodes up through the most recent, don't open the thread.

Bam! No more need for spoilers at all!

[Intrigued]

Eh, you have to draw the line somewhere, and putting spoilers in a spoiler tag seems like enough to me, but w/e. I mean, why not require people to site what chapters/pages/paragraphs they are spoiling? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what the descriptions before spoiler tags do, but if there's no description, opening the spoiler is swim at your own risk.

[Dark567]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what the descriptions before spoiler tags do, but if there's no description, opening the spoiler is swim at your own risk.

Because this is a thread for the Show, not the book. If you want to leave your book spoilers without descriptions, go post them in the book thread. I think generally its okay to put show spoilers here without descriptions. That's the line.

[ArgonV]

Yeah, but there's plenty of people who are watching the series without having read the (relevant) books. So if it's just TV spoilers in here, then it's open at your own risk if you haven't seen the newest episode yet.

However, if the books are fair game, you could click on a spoiler - without obvious warning it's regarding the books - and spoilers future episodes/seasons could be spoiled.

Comparisons between the books and series are okay, as long as they don't spoil future plot points. So please no things like: I didn't really like the way they made Tyrion treat her, since now it's unlikely she'll still grant Tyrion his wings in book 4. (This is based on the assumption Tyrion doesn't sprout wings)

As mentioned, there is a book thread, why don't you go there and compare the books to the show then

[Dream]

Regarding Tyrion on a similar note:

Spoiler:

While they may not go to the trouble of making it look like he loses a significant part of is nose, I expect they'll give him some manner of terrible scar, because that is significant to some of his later development.

Thanks. I just read a book spoiler that spoiled the series. And it wasn't marked.

If it hasn't been aired in the TV series, MARK IT.

[gmalivuk]

Good point...

[pseudoidiot]

AND THAT'S WHY YOU ALWAYS LEAVE A NOTE

[Adam H]

Regarding Brienne: She's tall, ugly, and masculine. BUT she's also likeable, therefore she must be played by a model (gwendoline christie). As long as they cut her hair short and smear her face with dirt (since they can't use glasses), we'll get the point. But to their credit, they did a much better job than I expected making her look unattractive.

Also, Arya is way too pretty to be taken for a boy. Maybe (just maybe) put a bit less blush and eyeshadow on her.

Apologies for saying what has been said many times before.

[quantumcat42]

Bleaching her eyebrows goes a long way toward making her unattractive. It's just a bit unsettling without being obvious makeup.

[Felstaff]

s2e3 terribly minor spoiler.

Spoiler:

I thought at her introduction "she's not ugly enough by far!" but then when they juxtaposed her size and tramping movement with the far more graceful Catelyn Stark, I realised she looks and moves like Peter Weller in Robocop

[Dream]

Spoiler:

And she beats up gay people like a cop too!

...where is my coat, anyway?

[LaserGuy]

What does everyone think of Pyke so far?

Although I never really warmed to it in the books, this is rapidly becoming one of my favourite storylines in the TV series. Balon Greyjoy is just awesome, and Theon's homecoming (and subsequently being knocked down a couple of pegs) has been handled brilliantly.

[maybeagnostic]

Although I never really warmed to it in the books, this is rapidly becoming one of my favourite storylines in the TV series. Balon Greyjoy is just awesome, and Theon's homecoming (and subsequently being knocked down a couple of pegs) has been handled brilliantly.

Agreed. The ironborn fell a bit flat for me in the books but I am enjoying their scenes in the show a lot more than I expected.

[Intrigued]

Yeah they seem to be giving Theon some sympathy

book 5 spoilers -

Spoiler:

which makes it doubly worse that I just read the first "Reek" chapter.

[Diadem]

Regarding Brienne of Tarth / the actress who plays her. Compare these images (spoilered for size, not spoilers):

Spoiler:

They clearly did hire a pretty beautiful actress to play her, but they did a lot to make her 'ugly'. It's not just cutting her hair. They bleached the eyebrows, accentuated her chin, changed her eye colour, and gave her face a more square look. They also seem to have changed the texture of her skin. I'd say they did a pretty good job in making her less attractive.

[Lucrece]

The caliber of the actor is more important since we have stupidly good ways of altering appearance. I don't care who they hire so long as the end result is satisfying.

Also, Arya, too "pretty" to be taken for a boy? First of all, thick ass, bushy eyebrows and a equally thick rounded nose are not exactly what people associate with "pretty" and "feminine", and there are many boys that are slow to start masculinizing body-wise. At that age it can be tricky to distinguish boys from girls if you remove the hairstyling, clothing, and socially ingrained body language.

[Jave D]

I'd say they did a pretty good job in making her less attractive.

Agreed.

And yet... I'd totally do her.

[CorruptUser]

I'd marry her and use her to produce incredibly combat-proficient heirs. Sorry Sansa, you might be pretty but that doesn't do squat in this soontobefrozenover hell-hole.

[Yakk]

I'd say they did a pretty good job in making her less attractive.

/shrug -- she doesn't look at all ugly. And the books go on and on about how the Maid of Tarth is ugly. Maybe that is just her self esteem talking.

She isn't even all that "hollywood ugly" (ie, Zander in Buffy, who is supposed to be this marginalized unattractive geek), where you take someone who would be very attractive and pretend they aren't.

[Adam H]

Also, Arya, too "pretty" to be taken for a boy? First of all, thick ass, bushy eyebrows and a equally thick rounded nose are not exactly what people associate with "pretty" and "feminine", and there are many boys that are slow to start masculinizing body-wise. At that age it can be tricky to distinguish boys from girls if you remove the hairstyling, clothing, and socially ingrained body language.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm just saying I've seen kids that I couldn't tell if they were boys or girls, and this isn't one of them. The real problem I have is that it's a 15 year-old actress trying to pass off as a young boy, and they put liberal amounts of makeup on her which doesn't help.

Giant picture (before she got the beiber haircut, but she was still taken for a boy in the books in winterfell):

Spoiler:

And I'm not really complaining, I never expect popular media to do a good job portraying ugly people.

[Ixtellor]

Question:

Being that this is probably my favorite TV show, should I now go read the books? Or would that ruin the enjoyment and surprise of the series?

When

Spoiler:

Stark got beheaded... I was blown away.. epic moment in TV to kill off the most likeable and best character.

I would hate to ruin moments like that for myself.

[Adam H]

Being that this is probably my favorite TV show, should I now go read the books? Or would that ruin the enjoyment and surprise of the series.

I would recommend anyone who hasn't watched or read the series to read the books first. That said, the books might ruin the show for you. I don't actually think the show is all that great, and I'm pretty sure my irrational love of the books is to blame.