Diablo III

[mfb]

Duriel isn't immune to cold, just very resistant to it.

He was immune to cold in 1.09, they changed this with 1.10.

In D3 every character for QUITE some time is completely undifferentiable from another character of the same class. In D3 the game chooses your skills for you and you have to put up with it until you get to the ones you want. If those happen to be higher level unlocks, too bad.

Do we talk about the same game?
From level ~3 on, you have multiple skills available and you can choose 2 (later: more) to use them in combat. You can modify your choice later, when better skills become available.

As for switching out skills, D2 had respecs in the last patch but they were limited.

Do we talk about the same game? Tokens of absolution?
Sure, you have to cube them, but the essences drop so frequently that it just a matter of picking them up.


If you listen to all texts which are quest-related in D2, you get a lot of story, too. Most players skip them, and that is possible in D3, too. You don't have to actually listen to any NPC.

>> There is a cart blocking your way
There is Jerhyn blocking your way in D2.

At least? Baseline? Did you see the [item] examples I gave? It looks like they're starting WAY below the baseline.

Blizzard made a lot of comments about a lot of different affixes. And if you look at some leaked affix lists, there are more than just "+damage" "+life". Chance to cast X might be missing. Well, so what. Could be added later. D2 classic "misses" a lot of these interesting affixes, too.


>> I want to be able to differentiate my character from other characters, yet in both the skill and stat system, I can't do that.
There are several thousand ways to choose skills+runes. Sure, most of them won't be used, but there are still a lot of viable options. Unlike the D2-system, every attack skill in D3 has a reasonable damage, as it just depends on the weapon damage. And the difference between two runes is often more than "you put 20 points in A and 10 in B? Oh, I did it the other way round!".


>> We know with pretty good certainty that the interesting modifiers that enabled many of the more fun builds in D2 aren't going to be there (Add skills from other classes, procs on hit/being hit, open wounds/crushing/deadly etc.).
You really should look at affix lists . And even these do not include some stats which are available on legendaries only (in D2, you would miss crushing blow, deadly strike, cannot be frozen, +all skills, ...).

[mike-l]

The character with the least active skills is the monk, at 21. (Wizard is the most at 25). You can select 6 of those. That's over 54 thousand possible choices. And that's before runes. And passives. The monk also has the least passives, at 14. Choosing 3 is 364 choices of passives. For a given skill set, you have over 15 thousand rune choices. All in all, the monk has 308 TRILLION possible builds. The wizard has 1.3 QUINTILLION.

I'm not worried about not being able to distinguish myself.

[Nylonathatep]

1) First: Arcadey Aesthetic

Spoiler:

I was sure they'd fix it after the first images of D3 came out, but they have not done so yet... I dislike the change to a more arcadey and cartoonish aesthetic. Though this is, to a large extent, a personal thing I do think that it harms the tone and ambience that Diablo 2 pulled off so well. D2 felt like a dark dank crap sack world where little was left and what was left was shambles of random people trying to survive in worn down cities. D3 feels much closer to Torchlight, which was very lighthearted and quirky, than Diablo.

Because of the recent interest in Diablo again, I've actually look back at some of the old Gameplay of Diablo 2 in youtube. Granted Diablo 2 is 11+ year old but the graphic is still pretty impressive for a decade old game. Irreguardless, a successful business should view every challenge as an opportunity and there has been complain about the art style in diablo 3 that was bought up before. I think blizzard can easily generate an addon that would change the graphics to make it suitable for those that wanted a darker feel to the game. Isn't there a link to a shader for D3 that got posted a vew pages back?

I personally like the Diablo 3 graphic. Most of the more gothic feel to Diablo 2 was due to the fact that character have light radius and that everything that wasn't "lid" is completely dark. There's even equipment for stat bonus to light in d2 if I remember correctly. While darker d3 would be cool, I'm getting Old and I need to go easy on my eyes lol

2) Shallow Skill System

Spoiler:

I wouldn't argue that having a bunch of useless skills was a good thing, but what they've changed it to removes what was really fun about Diablo 2. Having a set goal for your character build, working towards it, and having extremely meaningful skill CHOICES all the way through the skill-gaining process. If I want to play a Blizzard Sorc over a Meteor sorc then I personally go and put points into the cold spell tree... but in D3 I have essentially no choice in what skills I get, just which ones I use and even then not until much later on.

Example:
I want to do an orb sorc? I start off putting heaps of points into the first cold bolt skill and use that to kill things, look I'm already icing it up! I'm already differentiated and special, it's awesome! Sure Cold bolt is useless for combat at 30 or whenever you get orb, but you know what isn't useless to me as a player? How much fun it is to have feedback in my choices and build early on in the game!

But in D3 if I want to play a trap Demon Hunter then I need to play a generic bow DH until level 21 when I get the turret so I can use Spike Trap + Sentry, or maybe I can switch it up and use chakrams for a while but I still have to spend 20 levels playing the gameplay I don't want to play. The D2 Assassin, I get bombs and traps straight away, I don't have to bother with that martial stuff at all!

What if I want to play a Melee Demon Hunter? Well I can't because even the skills that work with melee weapons on (chakram, traps, bombs, etc) don't actually ever swing the weapon and are all ranged/trap stuff anyway... I can't even really just 'focus' on passives to make autoattacking awesome (Like with the passive amazon I made, who was a sword'n'board user), because I D3 I have to get and specialise in every one of the abilities my character learns, there is no 'focusing' on a certain type of gameplay.

In fact, the one possibly playable melee DH build I've managed to come up with (a playstyle which is only unlocked after FIFTY levels of gameplay I don't want) is prevented by the item system. Namely a sharpshooter passive (doesn't mention weapon type) with a hit-and-run style attack method and a big hulking 2 handed weapon to maximize crit-and-run damage... except DHs can't use two-handed weapons.

I think this is a conflict between hardcore D2 players vs the Casual players that haven't played D2 for a long long time. Most people stop playing D2 because they find the grind and MF run uninteresting. They cannot stand the fact that once they get to level 99, their build might become obsleted and they'll need to re-grind a new character for their new build. The developers of Diablo 3 made the skills swapable, remove the skill tree just to address that issue. However I do understand what Gelsamel was getting at. There's no longer customizable characters because nothing is permenant. Every DH is going to be a DH and they can no longer specialize via focusing on skills. The difference between one DH and the other DH will just be the skills the player select during that time and the equipment they are using right now and both are subject to change.

Will Characters have some sorta of meaningful customization? I hope blizzard will address that point and will eveuntually bring about a balanced approach to this solution.

3) Uninteresting Itemization

Spoiler:

Admittedly we've only seen a bit of act one and so we can't exactly comment too much on this. However we had a glimpse of their philosophy towards items this time when they had the items up on the game guide. They all had only a few modifiers and always only stuff like +stats and +damage, never anything interesting and fun like +X% Chance to cast Level Y Z on Hit/Taking Damage/Level Up, no +Skills (because of the skill change) no +Other Class Skills no +X Y Per character level, no crushing, deadly or open wounds.

Okay, so, yeah, they said that those weren't finalised and took them off the game guide. But lets compare early A1 normal items from D2 to early A1 D3 items that people commonly found.

D2: Griswolds Edge: http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/it ... ords.shtml
One-Hand Damage: (12-15) To (25-30) (18.5-22.5 Avg)
Required Level: 17
Required Strength: 48
Durability: 32
Base Weapon Speed: [0]
+80-120% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Adds (10-12) to (15-25) Fire Damage (varies)
10% Increased Attack Speed
+100 to Attack Rating
+12 To Strength
Knockback
(Only Spawns In Patch 1.09 or later)

D3: Griswolds Edge: (from information I found during older betas, if anyone had found gris in the open beta feel free to update the stats)
+1-2 damage
+2 Random Properties

Random properties all seem generic things related to resource generation, crit, damage or stats.

D2: Act 1 Normal Rare bow example: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/ ... re_bow.jpg

D3: Act 1 Rare Bow examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWX9ULk3E3s
Notice how samey and generic they all are? All fire bow, ice bow, holy bow, more damage, etc. No bow that curses the opponent, no bow that bleeds the opponent, no bow that sometimes casts a wizard spell when you shoot it, no bow that hits so hard it knocks things back.

D2: Act 1 Normal Set item example, Cleglaw's Tooth: http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/it ... l#cleglaws
One-Hand Damage: 3 to 19 (11 Avg)
One-Hand Damage: 3 to (20-142) (11.5-72.5 Avg)
Required Level: 4
Required Strength: 55
Required Dexterity: 39
Durability: 44
Base Weapon Speed: [-10]
50% Deadly Strike
30% Bonus to Attack rating
+ (1.25 Per Character Level) +1-123 To Maximum Damage (Based On Character Level) (2 Items)

D3: I've not seen any low level set items at all. But the possible item properties are all similar to what is going on with uniques and rares in D3.

I'm hoping uniques will be "uniques"... there's ofcourse Auction house implications to be made as well. There's definately an opportunity for Blizzard to have items that cater to specific builds. They've already done some interesting things regarding Wizard and their spell damage and cast time based the weapon the character is holding at the time. That's why My wizard was holding a a giant Axe for most of my runs. (My shocking Grasp is pretty devestating, as are my Arcane Orbs) I'm looking foward to most interesting stuff like this in Diablo 3... Sadly DH is limited to range weapons, but as least duel crossbows sounds cool!

Equipment that gives + damage or % chances for certain effects to happen also seems pretty decent. I haven't seen any evidence of Diablo 3 implimenting that thou.

[Izawwlgood]

The character with the least active skills is the monk, at 21. (Wizard is the most at 25). You can select 6 of those. That's over 54 thousand possible choices. And that's before runes. And passives. The monk also has the least passives, at 14. Choosing 3 is 364 choices of passives. For a given skill set, you have over 15 thousand rune choices. All in all, the monk has 308 TRILLION possible builds. The wizard has 1.3 QUINTILLION.

I'm not worried about not being able to distinguish myself.

Actually, that's not true, because you don't have full range of ability placement flexibility. There are x skills that can be placed in M1, x skills in M2, and x skills in slots 1, 2, 3, and 4. I think this is a very good change, but it does limit things a bit.

[Chen]

Actually, that's not true, because you don't have full range of ability placement flexibility. There are x skills that can be placed in M1, x skills in M2, and x skills in slots 1, 2, 3, and 4. I think this is a very good change, but it does limit things a bit.

You can just select elective mode and you can put whatever skill you want wherever you want it. The fixed skill types is just there to simplify things if you want, its not mandatory.

[Nylonathatep]

4) Stupid Statistics

Spoiler:

Everyone agrees that D2's stat/attribute system needed fixing. Min str/dex to use items then all in vitality was boring, you should be able to choose to invest in stats for more damage while foregoing stamina and just making sure to not get hit... but that really wasn't even viable in D2.

The solution to that, however is NOT to completely remove stat customisation and dumb stats down. Right now the stat system of Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence/Vitality where STR/DEX/INT is the damage stat for Barb/DH+Monk/WD+Wiz is incredibly boring and stupid. D3 might as well be changed it so that Barbarians only have 1 stat called "Barbarianism" and Demon Hunters only have one stat called "Demonology" and Witch Doctors only have one stat called "Voodoo Pharmacy" and Monks only have one stat called "Enlightenment" and Wizards only have one stat called "Wizardry" where each stat's tooltip says "How good your character is at being X" where "X" is the name of their class. Thats how pointless the stats are right now.

Hell if you're going to do that, just scrap attributes entirely and ONLY have weapon damage, armor, resistances, and hp.

The true solution, however, is to keep the D2 attribute system but fix up how str and dex scale and integrate with weapons and skills so going "full strength" is as viable as going "full dex" or "full vit" as long as you build your items/skills around it.[/quote]

Having played WoW for 7+ years, I've seen what Blizzard has done with stats and single stats does make the most sense. For example my Mage in WoW used to consul ElitestJerks.com and lots of other resources just to max/min my character. Int was for mana pool, +spell equipement increases your spell damage, +Spr was for crit and mana regen, and you'll need +con for more hp so you don't die in PvP if you are doing that. They reconsolidate everything so everything is a 1 stat wonder in Cataclysm and The trend begins there.

While max/mining is fun and I don't mind doing it , all it does is create a bigger gap between the people that "knows" how to max/min and people that don't. The difference can be huge, especially when you compare n00bs that puts all 61 of their skill points into one skill tree, vs people that uses an optimal build. One-stat-wonder just makes everything easier and more causal friendly and at the end of the day let casual players have a chance to compete.


5) Active Narrative

Spoiler:

D2 had this great ambience about it, you were in some fucked up world full of zombies and demons and shit and everything was dark and scary. There was a story but it was in the background, you had to explore and really get into the story to find out everything. This was great because if you were interested in the story you really had to get sucked into the world and experience it from that point of view, they weren't just throwing the story at you and expecting you to love it. They hid it away in dark corners so when you found the story you are surrounded in darkness and in the perfect mood to experience it.

If you didn't care for the story you could just run through this awesome setting and let the tone and ambience flow through you.

In D3 however, I'm explicitly following a storyline. To avoid it and just experience the setting itself I have to escape or turn off all the cinematics and close all the popup windows when people tell you stuff and even then I still have to finish all the main storyline quests. It can't be that I'm just going through and killing King Leoric because I'm a bad ass, I HAVE to save Cain (when I didn't have to do anything I didn't want to do in D2) and then go back and go through more storyline to get the key or whatever it was so I can go further in the dungeon to fight Leoric.

Diablo has never had an amazing narrative or plot, though the setting and tone in D2 was amazing... yet in D3 they're arrogant enough so as to FORCE me to experience their shitty plot. Even if I skip all the words and cinematics I still have to go through story events to continue. I can't rush through Leoric's dungeon like a badass like I could ignore tristram in D2. I can't get past the cart until I do some crappy storyline quest. What the hell.

Now, you may say all of this is moot because we played a BETA and the full game could be completely different. But, come on, really? It comes out on the 15th and we just played a stress test beta (not a bug/balance/gameplay test beta), a beta which would have no point if the game we were playing was not largely similar to what is being released. Plus how much can really be done to a game from now till release? Certainly the game is already finalised and this open beta is just related to making sure the servers are ready.

It is theretically possible that the beta we played is super old and the currently finalised version is actually completely different, but then why give us a misleading preview? If it turns out the release version is completely different some of these criticisms may be invalid, but I'm talking about what we're presented with here.[/quote]

Blizzard ran out of lore, and excuses to make a new game. Think of it this way: D1 has no Lore, but everything in D2 has to be based in D1, including what happened in D1 (Fighter fought his way down the dungeon, killed a demon, and stick a stone into his forehead), and now some more adventurers have to show up to chance that guy down while he literally unleashed hell. In the same way D3 have to be developed with D2 and D1 lore in mind, which means the storyline have to be more constricted. You cannot just have races and enemies appeared out of nowhere without explaination. The consistancy between storylines is what made Blizzard franchises so successful while others have failed, however, at the same time is stymiting creativity.

It's funny too when they created two new races for WoW... some space aliens and blood elves. Worst, they have to revamp the lore so that those space aliens aren't evil but rather controlled by Saragas, the corrupted Titan. People still bought and played the expansion thou.

P.S Post too big, I'm breaking it down to two sections.

[Lostdreams]

Having played the beta stress test for D2 I can safely say that not a bit of this matters right now. The majority of the mechanics and gameplay will change wildly over the first 6 months after release and the things people find unfun will be the first to go. I expect them to add a blanket dialog skip or plot skipping steamline effect option for all of the difficulties after normal, for those people who just want to do runs and hacknslash.

[mike-l]

Having played WoW for 7+ years, I've seen what Blizzard has done with stats and single stats does make the most sense. For example my Mage in WoW used to consul ElitestJerks.com and lots of other resources just to max/min my character. Int was for mana pool, +spell equipement increases your spell damage, +Spr was for crit and mana regen, and you'll need +con for more hp so you don't die in PvP if you are doing that. They reconsolidate everything so everything is a 1 stat wonder in Cataclysm and The trend begins there.

That's really not true. They got rid of spellpower because it was redundant. Every item except for weapons that had X int had 10X spell power on it. They got rid of MP5 because it does the same thing as Spirit, and so was also redundant. And then they added a new stat, mastery. Playing a caster/healer in wow is a 5 stat game, Int, Crit, Haste, Mastery, and Spirit/Hit depending on class. Comparatively, until ZA/Sunwell, TBC was SP, Spirit, Crit, Hit. There wasn't haste on much gear at all, and mastery didn't exist. It's never been more than a 5 stat game for casters, and that's what it sill is.

While max/mining is fun and I don't mind doing it , all it does is create a bigger gap between the people that "knows" how to max/min and people that don't. The difference can be huge, especially when you compare n00bs that puts all 61 of their skill points into one skill tree, vs people that uses an optimal build. One-stat-wonder just makes everything easier and more causal friendly and at the end of the day let casual players have a chance to compete.

There's nothing wrong with doing research/figuring stuff out making you perform better. What you want to avoid, and what blizzard has stated they want to avoid, is complication that doesn't add any depth. The interplay between haste and crit and int is interesting. The interplay between Int and SP was not. And when you have stats that are strictly inferior in every case, that's not a good stat. You shouldn't have a game where you get options where there is only one good choice, and that's really what D2 attributes were. Vit was so far superior to Str that doing anything besides the minimum amount of str for your gear was silly.

D3 has a number of interesting affixes. Let's just look at what you can get on an axe, purely for damage (source)
+Stats
+Damage (either physical or other)
+Damage %
+Attacks Per Second
+Attack Rate
+Crit Damage

6 ways to increase the damage output, and they could interact interestingly. Eg Slow weapons would benefit more from +Attacks per second, while fast weapons would benefit from +attack rate. Similarly +damage may outdo +damage% depending on the weapon and the skills you are using.

Then there's magic find, life leach, resource regen, resists, procs (knockback, stun, blind, freeze, snare), cc reduction, XP gain, goldfind, indestructible, movement speed, sockets, life regen, and thorns.

[The Utilitarian]

The character with the least active skills is the monk, at 21. (Wizard is the most at 25). You can select 6 of those. That's over 54 thousand possible choices. And that's before runes. And passives. The monk also has the least passives, at 14. Choosing 3 is 364 choices of passives. For a given skill set, you have over 15 thousand rune choices. All in all, the monk has 308 TRILLION possible builds. The wizard has 1.3 QUINTILLION.

I'm not worried about not being able to distinguish myself.

Actually, that's not true, because you don't have full range of ability placement flexibility. There are x skills that can be placed in M1, x skills in M2, and x skills in slots 1, 2, 3, and 4. I think this is a very good change, but it does limit things a bit.

Aye. There are a few skills you can't bind directly to your left click, such as untargeted abilities, but other than that it's whatever you like in elective mode.

[Izawwlgood]

I haven't played for a while, but I seem to recall each hotkey (m1, m2, 1, 2, 3, and 4) each having a pool of abilities that can be slotted in them. So you can't put ANYTHING in 2, you can only put one of six or so abilities.

The idea is I guess that M1 is main attack, M2 is alt attack, 1 is, say, AoE, 2 is neato perk, 3 is murderizing and pillaging, and 4 is panic button. I could be remembering the new breakdown incorrectly.

[mike-l]

That's the default mode. But if you go into options you can turn on elective mode and put anything anywhere, with some restrictions only on left click.

[Izawwlgood]

Oh! Neato.

[Lostdreams]

also, D and F are summoners spells and B is recall.

I'm not entire sure about Vayne's new skillset either. I mean, it's ok but still less fun than Yorick after the changes to his ghouls. Meanwhile Lee Sin is still OP. I might be mixing games here...

[The Utilitarian]

also, D and F are summoners spells and B is recall.

I'm not entire sure about Vayne's new skillset either. I mean, it's ok but still less fun than Yorick after the changes to his ghouls. Meanwhile Lee Sin is still OP. I might be mixing games here...

I... I believe you meant this to go in the League of Legends thread friend.

[Gelsamel]

There is way to much for me to respond to so I'll just make a few points.

What D3 has is not customisation any more than buying your weapons at the start of CS is customisation. The only difference between D3 and CS is that in D3 you have infinite money to buy weapons (you can choose any combination) and all the weapons are balanced and in D3 you can change your weapons mid round although with a penalty (Nephalem Valor). Would someone -really- call that customisation?

In Skyrim, lets say you don't get to choose where to point your points in, but rather you chose entire constellations: Say I choose blacksmithing, two handed weapons, light armor, and enchanting. And you would level up and automatically get bonuses from those trees only... but you could change to any other constellation at any point in time. Would you -really- call that customisation?

What about if you played a game where you chose a class to level up as, but the class only has one straight lines of skills, BUT you could switch class at any point during gameplay, is that customisation?

Someone mentioned Jehryn or whatever is name is in Act 2. Thats not the same as the cart blocking you in D3 because D3 forces you to go into this little alcove of the map before you get any access to the rest of the map... and that isn't the only blockade so far in A1. In A2 Jehryn is the only blockade and not only that... he blocks you from a small alcove of the map, while letting you access the rest of the map... and it's also the last place you can go.

Think about this for a moment: I can't get to A1 Cath until I get past all the areas before it! Does that mean I'm being "blocked" by not being allowed to go straight to Cathedral? No. Jehryn is much more like this type of "preventing you from getting to an area" because (1) It's the last set of areas, (2) It's a tiny part of A2 overall. Plus it's entirely reasonable for Jehryn and his guards to block you from entering his Palace. Having a random cart in the way (one I can't climb over or go around for some reason) is extremely contrived, it's only much much worse because it constrains you to a tiny part of the world and forces you into storyline before you can go anywhere. Then add in that the "anywhere" you can go after you get the cart is yet another small alcove of the map where you're forced to do certain things before you can continue? Fuck that.

Imagine if instead of Jehryn blocking you into his palace, the last tiny bit of A2... you actually had to finish Radamant's Lair before you were even allowed outside Lut Gholein! Of course, this would make a lot of sense (ie. it wouldn't be contrived like the cart in the way is) but it would still be stupid as hell. THEN I would have problem with A2's design, but that isn't what happens.

And the point about item modifiers on early weapons. Sorry, but that is just completely wrong. You can get almost any basic mod on a weapon right at level 1 (obviously not the higher mods, like you can get +1 str but not +40 str). You must be thinking about item level which is only somewhat related to the level required to use the item. Item level is just how many "points" the item has to spend on various modifiers (and the limit on how high a modifier you can get is limited by qlvl). The level required to use an item is at minimum, 3/4ths the highest ilvl attribute on the item.

Which means the following effects are not available (on magic/rare items) at level 10 (About the level you can end up by you kill Leoric in the D3 Demo):
+Skills
+Per Character Level Defense
+Per Character Level Attack Rating
+Per Character Level Damage
+PREFIX Min/Max Elemental Damages (Suffix ones spawn from level 1)
Requirement -%
Ignores Target Defense
+Per Character Level Life
+Per Character Level Mana
Obviously some of the charges of higher level skills but you can get charges in general from items w/ level requirement 5.25 (not sure how it rounds, lets say up, so level 6).
Obviously some of the procs of higher level skills but you can get procs in general from items w/ level requirement 2.25 (not sure how it rounds, lets say up, so level 3).

Thats it, thats all that is missing that actually appears on Magic/Rare items. And note, of course, Unique and set items are no constrained by any of this (Cleglaws has Damage per level, for instance), even from level 1.


If there is anything someone really wanted me to specifically respond to then please say so, there is just so much that has been posted I thought I'd get what I saw as the main objections out of the way.

[Chen]

There is way to much for me to respond to so I'll just make a few points.

What D3 has is not customisation any more than buying your weapons at the start of CS is customisation. The only difference between D3 and CS is that in D3 you have infinite money to buy weapons (you can choose any combination) and all the weapons are balanced and in D3 you can change your weapons mid round although with a penalty (Nephalem Valor). Would someone -really- call that customisation?

In Skyrim, lets say you don't get to choose where to point your points in, but rather you chose entire constellations: Say I choose blacksmithing, two handed weapons, light armor, and enchanting. And you would level up and automatically get bonuses from those trees only... but you could change to any other constellation at any point in time. Would you -really- call that customisation?

What about if you played a game where you chose a class to level up as, but the class only has one straight lines of skills, BUT you could switch class at any point during gameplay, is that customisation?

I'm going to say "yes" to all those. Why does customization need to mean permanent? Did adding a respec system in D2 remove customization? Could you not customize your Shepard in ME3 even though there was an easy respec system? There are still multiple viable builds available in D3. Personally I hate the stupid charged bolt skills but I've seen other people who love them. I'll use my character one way and they will use theirs another. How is this not customization?

[Gelsamel]

If you can't see how D3 customisation on the scale of the customisation you get in CS at the start of each round is 'shallow customization' like I called it in my post... then we must really be talking about entirely different things. I want to have a character who I put effort into and build up into something awesome and unique that I'm invested in (in both emotional and effort senses), not just choose a few "guns".

[Coin]

There is way to much for me to respond to so I'll just make a few points.

What D3 has is not customisation any more than buying your weapons at the start of CS is customisation. The only difference between D3 and CS is that in D3 you have infinite money to buy weapons (you can choose any combination) and all the weapons are balanced and in D3 you can change your weapons mid round although with a penalty (Nephalem Valor). Would someone -really- call that customisation?

In Skyrim, lets say you don't get to choose where to point your points in, but rather you chose entire constellations: Say I choose blacksmithing, two handed weapons, light armor, and enchanting. And you would level up and automatically get bonuses from those trees only... but you could change to any other constellation at any point in time. Would you -really- call that customisation?

What about if you played a game where you chose a class to level up as, but the class only has one straight lines of skills, BUT you could switch class at any point during gameplay, is that customisation?

Are you sure you're using the right word? Seems to me you're looking for some kind of locking into a role.

From Dictionary.com
Customisation
to modify (something) according to a customer's individual requirements

Customisation does not imply permanent change. If the requirements change then it makes business sense to let people change their character rather than forcing them to making a new one. Grinds are tedious and make some people quit. Besides, as has been stated D2 updated to having a system where you gathered reagents in order to change your build. This was so easy that they might as well have made it unlimited in the first place.

[Chen]

If you can't see how D3 customisation on the scale of the customisation you get in CS at the start of each round is 'shallow customization' like I called it in my post... then we must really be talking about entirely different things. I want to have a character who I put effort into and build up into something awesome and unique that I'm invested in (in both emotional and effort senses), not just choose a few "guns".

It seems to be a mindset issue. Once synergies came into D2 you threw points from frostbolt->Icicle (or whatever it was called)->Frozen Orb for an Orb sorc (at least when I played ages ago). I don't really see the difference between that and using frostbolt until icicle gets unlocked, then using that and then using Orb once it got unlocked (if we were to translate that into D3 terms). In D3 you're not forced to follow that path though. You could instead use fire at low levels, change to lightning midway through and end at orb. Or give you the option to change from Orb to Hydra at a later point. All I'm seeing is MORE possibilities which seems to imply MORE customization. There is definitely a lack of PERMANENCE in your choices though. I'm not sure that's really a bad thing. Respecing was added to D2 precisely because people got fed up of having to restart characters if they wanted to change something. Making an error in the game and having to restart it is generally a tedious affair. They've removed that and opened up more options.

[Gelsamel]

If you can't see how D3 customisation on the scale of the customisation you get in CS at the start of each round is 'shallow customization' like I called it in my post... then we must really be talking about entirely different things. I want to have a character who I put effort into and build up into something awesome and unique that I'm invested in (in both emotional and effort senses), not just choose a few "guns".

It seems to be a mindset issue. Once synergies came into D2 you threw points from frostbolt->Icicle (or whatever it was called)->Frozen Orb for an Orb sorc (at least when I played ages ago). I don't really see the difference between that and using frostbolt until icicle gets unlocked, then using that and then using Orb once it got unlocked (if we were to translate that into D3 terms). In D3 you're not forced to follow that path though. You could instead use fire at low levels, change to lightning midway through and end at orb. Or give you the option to change from Orb to Hydra at a later point. All I'm seeing is MORE possibilities which seems to imply MORE customization. There is definitely a lack of PERMANENCE in your choices though. I'm not sure that's really a bad thing. Respecing was added to D2 precisely because people got fed up of having to restart characters if they wanted to change something. Making an error in the game and having to restart it is generally a tedious affair. They've removed that and opened up more options.

Here is the difference in your particularly example:

If I am a level 2 sorc, heading towards Orb/Blizzard, then at level 2 I am ALREADY differentiated from a level 2 sorc, heading towards meteor. And differentiated in a way that is related to my endgame playstyle as well.

At level 2 in D3, every character of every class is exactly the same. By level 10 you only have a few choices in how your character can be different, and the choices usually have nothing to do with how your endgame playstyle will play unless the early skills are the ones you're planning on using endgame.


@Coin: I said it was shallow customization. Also I have never said permenance = customisation.

[Coin]

Here is the difference in your particularly example:

If I am a level 2 sorc, heading towards Orb/Blizzard, then at level 2 I am ALREADY differentiated from a level 2 sorc, heading towards meteor. And differentiated in a way that is related to my endgame playstyle as well.

At level 2 in D3, every character of every class is exactly the same. By level 10 you only have a few choices in how your character can be different, and the choices usually have nothing to do with how your endgame playstyle will play unless the early skills are the ones you're planning on using endgame.


@Coin: I said it was shallow customization. Also I have never said permenance = customisation.

Well, your major beef with the system seems to be permanence. Look at the above quote. You're saying that you want the choices you make early on to affect your character later in the levels. That's permanence if anything.
I will grant you though that at level 2 there is more customisation in D2 than in D3, but seriously, for how long are we level 2? As soon as you reach a point where you have more than 3 skills in D3 you can make choices on what to use and once the runes come in you get even more choices on what kind of style you want to play with. Whether this affects your final build or not should be irrelevant if you're not interested in permanence.
Furthermore, how fun is it to cast ice-bolt repeatedly for the first however many levels?
If you don't have permanence your level 2 choices don't necessarily have anything to do with your end-build either. Instead you might opt for a fun, effective grind-build.
What about those people who have no idea what build they want for the end game? Isn't it more logical to allow for some experimentation?

[Gelsamel]

It's about experience the style of gameplay you want from level 1. Like I said in an example I gave before, if you want to play a sentry/trap DH you have to wait till you get sentry up in the 20something levels. If you want to play a trap Assassin in D2 then at level 2 you're already using bombs and traps. D2's skill system isn't perfect, but it allows you to have the gameplay and customisation you want right from the start (for almost all builds, there are a few exceptions).

I've already explained that D2 has respecs, you get one for every Den of Evil quest you do and you can also grind out items for a potion if you used all three Den of Evil quests, so permenance has little to do with it.

[Coin]

It's about experience the style of gameplay you want from level 1. Like I said in an example I gave before, if you want to play a sentry/trap DH you have to wait till you get sentry up in the 20something levels. If you want to play a trap Assassin in D2 then at level 2 you're already using bombs and traps. D2's skill system isn't perfect, but it allows you to have the gameplay and customisation you want right from the start (for almost all builds, there are a few exceptions).

I've already explained that D2 has respecs, you get one for every Den of Evil quest you do and you can also grind out items for a potion if you used all three Den of Evil quests, so permenance has little to do with it.

I think I see what you mean. If you specifically want to fling lightning and explosions from the beginning you are not allowed to because of the skill progression built into the game. Ergo, you don't get to chose what skills to unlock, only when to use them once you are given them.
Would you agree then that customisation gets better towards the higher levels when more skills unlock, thus allowing you to play as you like?

I'll stop harping on about permanence now; it's just that is seemed to be part of your argument before. No offence or obtuseness intended. =)

Edit: It should be said that I'm not entirely satisfied with what I've seen from the skill-system thus far, but I'm having difficulties putting the finger on what's lacking.

[Lostdreams]

also, D and F are summoners spells and B is recall.

I'm not entire sure about Vayne's new skillset either. I mean, it's ok but still less fun than Yorick after the changes to his ghouls. Meanwhile Lee Sin is still OP. I might be mixing games here...

I... I believe you meant this to go in the League of Legends thread friend.

Though I really did feel like I was playing Vayne and Lee Sin on the demon hunter and monk, tumble especially.

[Chen]

It's about experience the style of gameplay you want from level 1. Like I said in an example I gave before, if you want to play a sentry/trap DH you have to wait till you get sentry up in the 20something levels. If you want to play a trap Assassin in D2 then at level 2 you're already using bombs and traps. D2's skill system isn't perfect, but it allows you to have the gameplay and customisation you want right from the start (for almost all builds, there are a few exceptions).

How does it let you play any build right from the start? Things like Meteor, Whirlwind, Frozen Orb etc are all locked until much later, just like the D3 skills. If I want to use wall of fire and blizzard as my main attacks I definitely cannot do that at level 1.

I've already explained that D2 has respecs, you get one for every Den of Evil quest you do and you can also grind out items for a potion if you used all three Den of Evil quests, so permenance has little to do with it.

Then is it the difficulty (or lack thereof) in changing skills that's the problem? What's the difference between using fireballs and lightning and then respecing at 30 to use Frozen Orb and the new D3 way skills are assigned? Imagine there was an ideal way to level in D2 which said:
- Use Firebolt until level 10
- Use Charged bolt from 10-20
- Use Frozen orb past 30

Everyone has the option to use the respec system to build their sorc in exactly this manner. Just like everyone can choose the appropriate skills for their level in D3. Where is the difference? Why is one ok and the other not? Or are the respecs in general not ok?

[Coin]

It's about experience the style of gameplay you want from level 1. Like I said in an example I gave before, if you want to play a sentry/trap DH you have to wait till you get sentry up in the 20something levels. If you want to play a trap Assassin in D2 then at level 2 you're already using bombs and traps. D2's skill system isn't perfect, but it allows you to have the gameplay and customisation you want right from the start (for almost all builds, there are a few exceptions).

How does it let you play any build right from the start? Things like Meteor, Whirlwind, Frozen Orb etc are all locked until much later, just like the D3 skills. If I want to use wall of fire and blizzard as my main attacks I definitely cannot do that at level 1.

You're missing the point here. It's not about the end spell, it's the school of spells. If you want to be a fire breather then you can't be that from the start in D3. You'll have to go through the spells that the game gives you before you get the type of spells you like.

[Chen]

You're missing the point here. It's not about the end spell, it's the school of spells. If you want to be a fire breather then you can't be that from the start in D3. You'll have to go through the spells that the game gives you before you get the type of spells you like.

The reason I went with End spells was because more often than not they were the ones that defined the "build". I'll grant a sorc might not be the best example since their trees were pretty distinct in terms of fire mage vs ice mage vs lightning mage. But things like the Barb only really started getting defined by their higher tier abilities. I will grant at very low levels D2 had more variety than D3. You need to be level 4 on a DH to get your first "trap" (Caltrops) whereas you could have gotten a trap at level 1 I believe in D2 on an Assassin.

[mike-l]

And the point about item modifiers on early weapons. Sorry, but that is just completely wrong. You can get almost any basic mod on a weapon right at level 1 (obviously not the higher mods, like you can get +1 str but not +40 str). You must be thinking about item level which is only somewhat related to the level required to use the item. Item level is just how many "points" the item has to spend on various modifiers (and the limit on how high a modifier you can get is limited by qlvl). The level required to use an item is at minimum, 3/4ths the highest ilvl attribute on the item.

Which means the following effects are not available (on magic/rare items) at level 10 (About the level you can end up by you kill Leoric in the D3 Demo):
+Skills
+Per Character Level Defense
+Per Character Level Attack Rating
+Per Character Level Damage
+PREFIX Min/Max Elemental Damages (Suffix ones spawn from level 1)
Requirement -%
Ignores Target Defense
+Per Character Level Life
+Per Character Level Mana
Obviously some of the charges of higher level skills but you can get charges in general from items w/ level requirement 5.25 (not sure how it rounds, lets say up, so level 6).
Obviously some of the procs of higher level skills but you can get procs in general from items w/ level requirement 2.25 (not sure how it rounds, lets say up, so level 3).

Thats it, thats all that is missing that actually appears on Magic/Rare items. And note, of course, Unique and set items are no constrained by any of this (Cleglaws has Damage per level, for instance), even from level 1.

You're half right, in that I was just looking at weapons (actually axes). Most mods in the game can drop in Act 1 in some form or another. You can't use uniques as a cop out though, as we haven't seen any uniques in D3.

However, most of these are still not available at ilvl 1, which is the ilvl that drops in the Blood Moor and Den of Evil. You can't get life/mana steal til the Black Marsh, or any type of charges til Tamoe.

In any case, this is all moot. It's roughly an hour of game play to finish all the content in the beta. As I intend to spend hundreds if not thousands of hours playing this game, I couldn't care less about what isn't available just then.

As far as differentiating goes, In D2 I have 3 choices at level 2. In D3, I have 2 choices at level 3. Not a huge difference. I can be an arcane or a lightning sorc at level 3. And really, at level 2 in D2, I was still mostly meleeing because the mana system was broken at low levels.

[Izawwlgood]

It's about experience the style of gameplay you want from level 1. Like I said in an example I gave before, if you want to play a sentry/trap DH you have to wait till you get sentry up in the 20something levels. If you want to play a trap Assassin in D2 then at level 2 you're already using bombs and traps. D2's skill system isn't perfect, but it allows you to have the gameplay and customisation you want right from the start (for almost all builds, there are a few exceptions).

How does it let you play any build right from the start? Things like Meteor, Whirlwind, Frozen Orb etc are all locked until much later, just like the D3 skills. If I want to use wall of fire and blizzard as my main attacks I definitely cannot do that at level 1.

You're missing the point here. It's not about the end spell, it's the school of spells. If you want to be a fire breather then you can't be that from the start in D3. You'll have to go through the spells that the game gives you before you get the type of spells you like.

I think this angle of the argument still fails; all D3 does is include a 'tutorial' for every class. Just because you have to spend until lvl 5 or so being 'the same' as everyone, doesn't really alter the level of customization available. Furthermore, saying 'but at lvl one, in D2, I could put pts in fire and NOT be a cold sorc' isn't really MORE customization, it's just getting on a build earlier.

[Coin]

It's about experience the style of gameplay you want from level 1. Like I said in an example I gave before, if you want to play a sentry/trap DH you have to wait till you get sentry up in the 20something levels. If you want to play a trap Assassin in D2 then at level 2 you're already using bombs and traps. D2's skill system isn't perfect, but it allows you to have the gameplay and customisation you want right from the start (for almost all builds, there are a few exceptions).

How does it let you play any build right from the start? Things like Meteor, Whirlwind, Frozen Orb etc are all locked until much later, just like the D3 skills. If I want to use wall of fire and blizzard as my main attacks I definitely cannot do that at level 1.

You're missing the point here. It's not about the end spell, it's the school of spells. If you want to be a fire breather then you can't be that from the start in D3. You'll have to go through the spells that the game gives you before you get the type of spells you like.

I think this angle of the argument still fails; all D3 does is include a 'tutorial' for every class. Just because you have to spend until lvl 5 or so being 'the same' as everyone, doesn't really alter the level of customization available. Furthermore, saying 'but at lvl one, in D2, I could put pts in fire and NOT be a cold sorc' isn't really MORE customization, it's just getting on a build earlier.

I think that for someone prioritising this kind of customisation the argument is very valid. Just because you don't agree (which I don't, see argument "how long will you be lvl 2 for?") doesn't mean that the argument doesn't hold water given certain circumstances. In this case it's dependant on a particular subjective preference which you can't really argue against.

[Izawwlgood]

The difference between 'selecting the start of your build al lvl 0, lvl 1, or lvl 5' in the face of respeccing, is to me completely moot. Especially given the scope of the game.

[mike-l]

Also, at level 10 in D2, you have (as a sorc for example)
fire bolt, inferno, warmth (passive)
ice bolt, ice blast, frost nova, frozen armor
charged bolt and static field, telekinesis

At level 10 as a wizard in D3 you have
Magic Missile, Arcane Orb
Ray of Frost, Frost Nova, Diamond Skin
Shock Pulse, Wave of Force

Considering that ice blast is really the same as ice bolt with a rune, you have almost identical choices. Arcane Orb is pretty much Fire Ball, so you have that instead of Inferno, and you have Wave of Force instead of Static Field (which was a stupid spell anyway), and the redundant warmth is gone, as is telekinesis. I can be an arcane or a frost wziard, already on level 2, and any type on level 3. And they actually are different, instead of ice bolt being fire bolt in a different color, I have a spammable missle, a chanelled beam and a short range AoE defining the school I'm playing.

At level 60, D2 had roughly 30 abilities per class. D3 has 35-40, not including runes.

[Will]

The difference between 'selecting the start of your build al lvl 0, lvl 1, or lvl 5' in the face of respeccing, is to me completely moot. Especially given the scope of the game.

Also, while it's true your options are fairly limited at first, they open up once you hit level 6 or so. It takes all of *half a fucking hour* to reach level 6 from level 1, so it's kindof absurd to complain that there aren't enough options at, say, level 3.

[mike-l]

so it's kindof absurd to complain that there aren't enough options at, say, level 3.

At which point you have 3 skills in each game anyway.

[Izawwlgood]

I really stand by the notion that 'customization' has nothing to do with permanence, and nothing to do with 'earliest point of diversification'. So you can't be an Ice Mage until lvl 8 as opposed to lvl 3. The options available to you for customizing a character in D3 seems both deeper and wider than anything in D2.

[Spambot5546]

My issue with the skill system isn't so much the respec option (which should probably be standard in games with this type of skill system) as the lack of advancement in skills. Arcane Bolt is the same at level 1 as it is at level 99. The only reason it does more damage is because you'll have a new weapon and higher int.

Also, the nature of the skill system leads on to conclude that regardless of unlock level no skill is intended to be "better" than another. If this isn't true then it seems possible that builds will become stacked with high-level skills and the number of useful builds drops sharply. If not, why not let me unlock skills in the order I choose?

The combination of these two factors make it so that most of the levels you gain don't seem to matter. Made level 8? So fucking what, you didn't get a skill and five stat points make approximately zero difference. Once you've got the skills you're interested in subsequent levels matter even less, you're just grinding them to be allowed to equip the gear you need, gear being what really matters.

I'd prefer to see every level granting you one skill point (SP being just as respec-able as skills are now) which can be used to
-Unlock a skill
-Unlock a rune
-Improve a skill or rune
-Advance stats

That would be a lot more engaging, I think

[Izawwlgood]

Arcane Bolt is the same at level 1 as it is at level 99. The only reason it does more damage is because you'll have a new weapon and higher int.

And you have 6 runes to alter it. This doesn't strike me as a bad thing. I actually find 'place points into a skill to boost it's damage range' to be a stupid system, because it means that you have skills that become 'useless' as you spec more heavily into other skills. No skill should ever become 'useless'; I'd rather have a toolbelt available to me with tools I prefer using, but never being penalized for picking up something I haven't touched in a while.

Also, the nature of the skill system leads on to conclude that regardless of unlock level no skill is intended to be "better" than another. If this isn't true then it seems possible that builds will become stacked with high-level skills and the number of useful builds drops sharply. If not, why not let me unlock skills in the order I choose?

Skills are balanced; obviously MegaAnniloNova is going to do more damage than Magic Missile, but it'll have a 30s cool down and require all your Arcane Energy. Instead of giving a skill requiring a bit of tact to use to a first level player, the skill unlock order is probably crafted to allow you to gain familiarity with the class, and give you neat unique things to look forward to. For example, the Wizard, Witch Doctor, and Hunter all probably have a fairly comprable ranged basic attack. Pewpewpew. Big fucking deal. But the Wizard has Archon Form, something totally fucking awesome sounding, and it should be something you have to work towards. Similar to D2 actually; even if there were multiple builds that were still effective, giving a first lvl sorc Meteor just wouldn't have made sense.

The combination of these two factors make it so that most of the levels you gain don't seem to matter. Made level 8? So fucking what, you didn't get a skill and five stat points make approximately zero difference. Once you've got the skills you're interested in subsequent levels matter even less, you're just grinding them to be allowed to equip the gear you need, gear being what really matters.

Well, the difference between lvl 8 and lvl 12 is obviously more significant than the difference between lvl 50 and lvl 54. That's true of just about every game, ever. As with every game of this sort, there are milestones, and stuff inbetween or after those milestones aren't really terribly memorable. The trick is, I think, to make the content and the options available at each stage as enjoyable as possible. D3, WAAAAY more than D2, means you won't get stuck at a shitty lull because your build doesn't have Ice Orb yet. Just swap to a different build for a little bit until Ice Orb unlocks.

I'd prefer to see every level granting you one skill point (SP being just as respec-able as skills are now) which can be used to...

But with respecs, what you just described is no different from what they actually implemented. It's 'do you want to spec to this build' or 'do you want to select this build'.

[Chen]

My issue with the skill system isn't so much the respec option (which should probably be standard in games with this type of skill system) as the lack of advancement in skills. Arcane Bolt is the same at level 1 as it is at level 99. The only reason it does more damage is because you'll have a new weapon and higher int.

Actually don't the skills increase in power with your level too? I thought anything that was coloured green in the skill was a parameter that increased as you leveled.

[Spambot5546]

But with respecs, what you just described is no different from what they actually implemented. It's 'do you want to spec to this build' or 'do you want to select this build'.

The only difference is how in-depth the respec process is. It's the difference between selecting six skills and selecting six skills with emphases on certain ones, or even emphasizing effects of certain ones (by improving runes instead of just skills).

You're right in saying it's not a huge difference, or even a big difference, but it's a difference. It wouldn't stop me from buying the game. The fact that I have no money, that's what's stopping me from buying the game. That and Path of Exile, which just seems a lot more fun.

[mike-l]

Yeah, I do feel the pain of the skills not seeming to be improvable, aside from runes. It would be neat if you got a bonus based on number of skills from one school on your bar, or do something like a skill is buffed by how many skills in that tree you've cast (as a percentage) in the last few minutes... or something to give the feel of trees as opposed to isolated skills.